I think they're going through the batshit crazy period right now that Christianity went through in the Middle Ages.
Normally I would agree with you, but the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition were both as a direct result of Islamic fundamentalist insurgency through the South Western part of Europe around Byzantine, etc. In the year 1095, **** pretty much came to a head and continued with Europe through the next few hundred years through the rein of Al Saladin.... etc.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Normally I would agree with you, but the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition were both as a direct result of Islamic fundamentalist insurgency through the South Western part of Europe around Byzantine, etc. In the year 1095, **** pretty much came to a head and continued with Europe through the next few hundred years through the rein of Al Saladin.... etc.
No, you're stretching the sheet to much. It responded to it but it wasn't the cause. You can't blame it on them. Christianity was in full-tilt crazy by their own motivations.
No, you're stretching the sheet to much. It responded to it but it wasn't the cause. You can't blame it on them. Christianity was in full-tilt crazy by their own motivations.
There was political and financial corruption, and the errant murder here and there from people who didn't agree with the corruption, but that barely deserves mentioning. The crusades generally were justified. Most of it was land reclamation, sure... they went overboard a little, but that's what happens when you hire murders and rapists... you know, aside from the Knights Templar.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: There was political and financial corruption, and the errant murder here and there from people who didn't agree with the corruption, but that barely deserves mentioning. The crusades generally were justified. Most of it was land reclamation, sure... they went overboard a little, but that's what happens when you hire murders and rapists... you know, aside from the Knights Templar.
That is totally unrelated to what I said. Quoting me has nothing to do with your response.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 05-24-2014).]
Originally posted by rinselberg:But I don't want to quibble about the statistics of sectarian mayhem. I more or less share your sentiments here. The thing that you are mistaken about is my motives--what moves me to post at such great length on this topic. It's not particularly to defend or support Islam or Muslims. I just enjoy analyzing what I consider to be the dubious ideas that are manifest on this forum, almost every single day, about what Islam would be like if it were practiced in a way that I think would be authentic to its foundational texts, and to its most learned and thoughtful scholars and practioners, from Mohammed's time all the way forwards to today.
This is a recreation for me. I have found it agreeable to put my reactions into words (here), and to Google my way to online materials that I can review and factor into my message board posts here.
If the numerous here (it's a sizable group) would focus their indignation on the misdeeds of wayward Muslims, instead of poorly informed rants about Islam as a concept--then I doubt that I would keep hitting on this topic in the superabundant way that has become my habit.
Mr. "maryjane" gets it--about where I am coming from on this topic. Look at what he just posted, immediately above.
Except, that I also believe that Islam in of itself is not the problem--the ambivalence is and always has been. I said the terrorist count on that ambivalence for a reason. It's this ambivalence that translates into silent support for the atrocities, murder, bombings and worse that is now present on almost every continent. All that will stop if and only if and when the ambivalence morphs into open and very public opposition to the aforementioned bloody endeavors. Where does the ambivalence come from? One of the basic tenets of Islam.
Except, that I also believe that Islam in of itself is not the problem--the ambivalence is and always has been. I said the terrorist count on that ambivalence for a reason. It's this ambivalence that translates into silent support for the atrocities, murder, bombings and worse that is now present on almost every continent. All that will stop if and only if and when the ambivalence morphs into open and very public opposition to the aforementioned bloody endeavors. Where does the ambivalence come from? One of the basic tenets of Islam.
Ambivalence? Many Islamic sects are/have been at war with one another.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: There was political and financial corruption, and the errant murder here and there from people who didn't agree with the corruption, but that barely deserves mentioning. The crusades generally were justified. Most of it was land reclamation, sure... they went overboard a little, but that's what happens when you hire murders and rapists... you know, aside from the Knights Templar.
Imagine that you think "your side" was justified yet you can't seem to see the same in others.
Ambivalence? Many Islamic sects are/have been at war with one another.
And your point is?
More accurately stated: A small percentage of the membership of many Islamic sects are/have been at war with one another.
The larger % of the sect(s) are ambivalent about what goes on around them, just as the larger % of the Muslim population is ambivalent about what goes on regarding bombings, murder, torture, kidnapping, rape, and other "atrocities".
I've seen several different specials on tv over the last several years on this. One in Gaza, one in Pakistan, one in the trubal areas of Afghanistan, and another in Lebanon. Shopkeepers and students by day, but at the end of the day, the individuals leave that "normal" devout Muslim life, walk out of their place of employment and shoulder their rifle, rpg, or other tool of trade in full view of the public and go to their "night job". The devout "normal" Muslim majority in the areas are well aware of what this small minority is engaged in, but say and do nothing. They smile, nod as the combatants pass by, and the combatants accept this as approval. Globally, this happens every day, on a very wide scale, and the violence will continue until that majority no longer remains silent and ambivalent.
Wars, thru out history, end when either a definitive victory is achieved or until the public no longer accepts the warfare. The combatants could not care less what the rest of the world thinks, but they care very much what Islam as a whole thinks.
More accurately stated: A small percentage of the membership of many Islamic sects are/have been at war with one another.
The larger % of the sect(s) are ambivalent about what goes on around them, just as the larger % of the Muslim population is ambivalent about what goes on regarding bombings, murder, torture, kidnapping, rape, and other "atrocities".
I've seen several different specials on tv over the last several years on this. One in Gaza, one in Pakistan, one in the trubal areas of Afghanistan, and another in Lebanon. Shopkeepers and students by day, but at the end of the day, the individuals leave that "normal" devout Muslim life, walk out of their place of employment and shoulder their rifle, rpg, or other tool of trade in full view of the public and go to their "night job". The devout "normal" Muslim majority in the areas are well aware of what this small minority is engaged in, but say and do nothing. They smile, nod as the combatants pass by, and the combatants accept this as approval. Globally, this happens every day, on a very wide scale, and the violence will continue until that majority no longer remains silent and ambivalent.
Wars, thru out history, end when either a definitive victory is achieved or until the public no longer accepts the warfare. The combatants could not care less what the rest of the world thinks, but they care very much what Islam as a whole thinks.
There are two sides to many coins...... many Americans/Westerners are ambivalent to their Government sponsored bombing, murder, toture, unlawful captivity, and other "atrocities".
I would also suggest it depends on a lot of things why many neighbours etc don't stop others from committing crimes, I don't think Muslims are much different from most others in that regard.
One should probably take into account the econmic conditions and history of such places, along with the geo-political meddling other countries have done/are doing. I don't think it's too hard to figure out why many people in that region may dislike the West and may be taught their hatred. Religion can be a great motivator in the wrong hands for people to hate others, and again Islam is not alone in that regard. Basically though I still contend that most followers are like most followers of the other major religions. There is little place for radicalized religion of any kind IMO.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Hah, are you lumping the United States in now with British/French/Dutch colonialism and exploitation? You never cease to amaze me...
I have no idea what you are speaking to. I used "you side" as in Christian as you were speaking of the Crusades.
There are two sides to many coins...... many Americans/Westerners are ambivalent to their Government sponsored bombing, murder, torture, unlawful captivity, and other "atrocities".
I would also suggest it depends on a lot of things why many neighbours etc don't stop others from committing crimes, I don't think Muslims are much different from most others in that regard.
Neither of which changes the fact that the ambivalence is present and is the facilitator of the violence and rationalizing it's presence doesn't change it's effect or influence.
Neither of which changes the fact that the ambivalence is present and is the facilitator of the violence and rationalizing it's presence doesn't change it's effect or influence.
If by facilitator you mean makes easier I would agree. My comparisons were merely to show that I feel "we" are no better than "they".
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 05-24-2014).]
Meriam Ibrahim, the Sudanese woman who gave birth in a Khartoum prison after being sentenced to death in May for allegedly converting from Islam to Christianity, has been freed.
Ibrahim, 27, refused to renounce her Christian faith in court in May, prompting a judge to sentence her to hang for apostasy. The case became an international cause, with several U.S. lawmakers and the State Department blasting the decision as barbaric. Sudan's national news service SUNA said the Court of Cassation in Khartoum on Monday canceled the death sentence after defense lawyers presented their case, and that the court ordered her release. . . .
Sources close to the situation tell FoxNews.com that Ibrahim was whisked away to a confidential location and that her lawyers will be meeting with representatives from the U.S. Embassy on Tuesday. . . .
Meriam Ibrahim, the Sudanese woman who gave birth in a Khartoum prison after being sentenced to death in May for allegedly converting from Islam to Christianity, has been freed.
Ibrahim, 27, refused to renounce her Christian faith in court in May, prompting a judge to sentence her to hang for apostasy. The case became an international cause, with several U.S. lawmakers and the State Department blasting the decision as barbaric. Sudan's national news service SUNA said the Court of Cassation in Khartoum on Monday canceled the death sentence after defense lawyers presented their case, and that the court ordered her release. . . .
Sources close to the situation tell FoxNews.com that Ibrahim was whisked away to a confidential location and that her lawyers will be meeting with representatives from the U.S. Embassy on Tuesday. . . .
It's unclear if this is over. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-27998881 9-27-2014--9:27 ET Both Reuters and BBC are reporting "the Sudanese woman freed from death row on Monday has been arrested with her family at Khartoum airport, sources have told the BBC."
