Rise in Americas heroin use has been dramatic in the last 5 years. Making it the new "crack" like the 80s. So many youths getting hooked or overdosing. It all started with Big pharma too, they introduced all these opiate based medicines in the past decade to be given out to people of all age groups and for whatever small problem ibuprofen could have fixed.
Unfortunately I too have seen what this new epidemic has done to our youth, For the past 10 years i've boxed at the same Boxing gym and have seen tons of kids come in and out the door . The saddest part is before we knew how bad all these pharmaceutical opiates really were /are we didnt think anything of it when a Boxer with an injury showed up and had a pill bottle in his locker next to his mouth piece. Before you know it, some boxers would show up to class too 'stoned' or how they like to say 'over medicated' and we''d send them home because we didnt want them getting hurt.
Eventually one of our top prospects fell victim, he was personal friend and even after he stopped showing up to the gym I'd go by his house and we'd talk cars (he was a state certified mechanic in Michigan ) he always loved my Fiero , last I heard of him he went from pill popping, to pill sniffing, to breaking the pill down in to liquid and IV'ing the damn things.
So its no surprise that actually "mexican" heroin is now hitting the streets since Big pharama pulled the plug on their pills way too late. I blame them and them alone, along with all the doctors that thought it was smart to give this to kids playing football or other contact sports.
i wish i would have seen this documentary in the late 90s when it first aired. One of UFCs / MMAs very first legends was taking Xanax and Opiates (and steroids) throughout his first 17-0 fights reign and 3 championships . Before the sport drug tested. When they started testing, his testoserone loss turned him fat , and im sure he still is using since once an addict always an addict in some people, especially in the fighting world all those injuries.
the whole documentary is on youtube called "The Smashing Machine Kerr"
skip to 3:09 to see him loading up his morphene shot to administer himself into the vein
after starting 17-0 , he finished his career 18-18. horrible
[This message has been edited by DanDamage (edited 04-21-2014).]
There are people at this time that want the volume turned down in their head, not up. They want to be disengaged, not engaged.
It can be seen as a sign of the currant times.....a feeling of hopelessness....of unmeaningfull struggle. People that can see nothing for themselves in the future except just dragging their ass through the motions expected of them. The last breath of personal dreams, dying.
Simply, escapism. That is actually a prison.
But there can be a certain kind of security in being imprisoned...
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-21-2014).]
It can be seen as a sign of the currant times.....a feeling of hopelessness....of unmeaningfull struggle.
They must feel like they're in a jam or something...
On a more serious note, the recent news stories about heroin overdoses have been saddening. Heroin Across America
quote
"Tanner graduated from high school with honors. In the fall of 2012, he was pursuing a psychology degree at the University of Minnesota, and dreamed of becoming a drug counselor. He had not, to his mother's knowledge, ever used drugs — and certainly not heroin.
Then one day Tanner's roommates found the 21-year-old unconscious in his bedroom."
How do you prevent something like that?
[This message has been edited by 1988holleyformula (edited 04-22-2014).]
A question that will never be answered by the crowd that wants to legalize it. Their answere is that its the persons falt for the "bad choices". But others can use it properly so dont take away their property rights because of misuse by some.
A question that will never be answered by the crowd that wants to legalize it. Their answere is that its the persons falt for the "bad choices". But others can use it properly so dont take away their property rights because of misuse by some.
Originally posted by pokeyfiero: How is that different than guns?
At first I read your reply and I thought you were going crazy? Then I read my comment and thougt you could insert ANY words in it to come upwith a totaly worthless argument: like
How is that different than owning pets? How is that different than cars? How is that different than bikes/ How is that different than wheel chairs?
SO, to answere your reply about "guns" I would ask you to concider the side afects of "proper use" of guns vs "prper use" of heroin. People can go to the range and shoot a life time worth of ammo and not get side affects. You cant say that about drugs.
SO, to answere your reply about "guns" I would ask you to concider the side afects of "proper use" of guns vs "prper use" of heroin. People can go to the range and shoot a life time worth of ammo and not get side affects. You cant say that about drugs.
Shoot to much and you can get carpel tunnel syndrome or something like tennis elbow or some crap like that.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Originally posted by pokeyfiero: How is that different than guns?
Because you don't get a physical addiction to shooting people.
Now an emotional addiction is a totally different thing.
An earlier post, said one an addict always an addict, I find that to be less than 1/2 true. In my late teens / early 20's I was addicted to Crystal Meth. Started as a weekend thing, then turned into a weekday thing so I could party with my unemployed friends all night, then work all day. I yes I realized my addiction and finally saw an out, I left my friends behind and moved away. I lapsed once 2 years after I quit, but after that, its been 17 years since I touched the stuff. So I am not longer physically addicted to the stuff. However, I will have an emotional addiction to it till the day I die. Just like someone uses coffee or energy shots to wake up. If you were told to give up caffeine completely, its possible your body would go through some withdrawals from it, but you would probably want a coffee nearly every time you saw it and if someone put a cup of coffee in front of you, it would be hard to turn down.
Now back to guns, if a gun nut, was told he could not go shooting ever again, and you took all his guns away. (if you could do it without ever getting shot, LOL) He would be angry depressed about it, however put those same guns in front of him a year later loaded with targets on the range, in front of him .........
People can kick drugs if they WANT TO. However if they don't want to, there is no point in trying to stop them... Just like smoking, you have to want to quit, and really really, stick to it. Frankly I think its hard to quit smoking than it was to quit Meth. I quit smoking for a year and a half and due to some circumstances started up again and inside of a week I was back to a pack a day habit. I tried to quit last year and was down to 3-4 smokes a day, but really didn't have my heart in it, now I am up to over a pack a day depending on what is going on.
Yes there is a HUGE physical aspect to quiting and fighting through the withdrawals, but if the persons head is not in it, and they don't REALLY REALLY want to quit. There is no point in even trying.
------------------ 857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics For Sale $4000, Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
Because you don't get a physical addiction to shooting people.
Now an emotional addiction is a totally different thing.
An earlier post, said one an addict always an addict, I find that to be less than 1/2 true. In my late teens / early 20's I was addicted to Crystal Meth. Started as a weekend thing, then turned into a weekday thing so I could party with my unemployed friends all night, then work all day. I yes I realized my addiction and finally saw an out, I left my friends behind and moved away. I lapsed once 2 years after I quit, but after that, its been 17 years since I touched the stuff. So I am not longer physically addicted to the stuff. However, I will have an emotional addiction to it till the day I die. Just like someone uses coffee or energy shots to wake up. If you were told to give up caffeine completely, its possible your body would go through some withdrawals from it, but you would probably want a coffee nearly every time you saw it and if someone put a cup of coffee in front of you, it would be hard to turn down.
Now back to guns, if a gun nut, was told he could not go shooting ever again, and you took all his guns away. (if you could do it without ever getting shot, LOL) He would be angry depressed about it, however put those same guns in front of him a year later loaded with targets on the range, in front of him .........
People can kick drugs if they WANT TO. However if they don't want to, there is no point in trying to stop them... Just like smoking, you have to want to quit, and really really, stick to it. Frankly I think its hard to quit smoking than it was to quit Meth. I quit smoking for a year and a half and due to some circumstances started up again and inside of a week I was back to a pack a day habit. I tried to quit last year and was down to 3-4 smokes a day, but really didn't have my heart in it, now I am up to over a pack a day depending on what is going on.
Yes there is a HUGE physical aspect to quiting and fighting through the withdrawals, but if the persons head is not in it, and they don't REALLY REALLY want to quit. There is no point in even trying.
One problem oI see with this argument is that it almost implies that the purpose for guns is to aim at and shoot people. Compared to the number of guns sold in America, the % of shootings at people are VERY low vs shootings at paper targets and game.
It's been said over and over. The war on drugs is exactly like alcohol prohibition. Neither worked. Alcohol, bad. drugs, bad. creating an anti drug industry, bad. We will never make the problems with alcohol and drugs go away by making them illegal. Regulation and treatment is the best that we can do.
One problem oI see with this argument is that it almost implies that the purpose for guns is to aim at and shoot people. Compared to the number of guns sold in America, the % of shootings at people are VERY low vs shootings at paper targets and game.
I am not sure I understand your point of view. I am Pro Guns. I think everyone should have one and be trained how to use it before they get handed it. I mean you have to be licensed and have gone through extensive training before you can fill up air tanks for diving in the ocean. However you can go buy a firearm any time you choose.
I am still pro guns, I just think that proper training should be done before they are allowed to have one. There is a good chance that a "nut job, or unstable person" would be caught by a gun safety instructor. Possibly make a basic gun safety or gun training course required before a person makes their first hand gun purchase. However that's a discussion for another time / thread.
------------------ 857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics For Sale $4000, Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
I am not sure I understand your point of view. I am Pro Guns. I am still pro guns, I just think that proper training should be done before they are allowed to have one. There is a good chance that a "nut job, or unstable person" would be caught by a gun safety instructor. Possibly make a basic gun safety or gun training course required before a person makes their first hand gun purchase. However that's a discussion for another time / thread.
I was not disagreeing with you. Just making the point that guns are not made just for shooting at people. VERY VERY few guns are aimed and shoot at people. I would also say that of the shootings that do happen, the vast majority of those are used improperly and or illegaly.
Because you don't get a physical addiction to shooting people.
Now an emotional addiction is a totally different thing.
An earlier post, said one an addict always an addict, I find that to be less than 1/2 true. In my late teens / early 20's I was addicted to Crystal Meth. Started as a weekend thing, then turned into a weekday thing so I could party with my unemployed friends all night, then work all day. I yes I realized my addiction and finally saw an out, I left my friends behind and moved away. I lapsed once 2 years after I quit, but after that, its been 17 years since I touched the stuff. So I am not longer physically addicted to the stuff. However, I will have an emotional addiction to it till the day I die. Just like someone uses coffee or energy shots to wake up. If you were told to give up caffeine completely, its possible your body would go through some withdrawals from it, but you would probably want a coffee nearly every time you saw it and if someone put a cup of coffee in front of you, it would be hard to turn down.
Now back to guns, if a gun nut, was told he could not go shooting ever again, and you took all his guns away. (if you could do it without ever getting shot, LOL) He would be angry depressed about it, however put those same guns in front of him a year later loaded with targets on the range, in front of him .........
People can kick drugs if they WANT TO. However if they don't want to, there is no point in trying to stop them... Just like smoking, you have to want to quit, and really really, stick to it. Frankly I think its hard to quit smoking than it was to quit Meth. I quit smoking for a year and a half and due to some circumstances started up again and inside of a week I was back to a pack a day habit. I tried to quit last year and was down to 3-4 smokes a day, but really didn't have my heart in it, now I am up to over a pack a day depending on what is going on.
Yes there is a HUGE physical aspect to quiting and fighting through the withdrawals, but if the persons head is not in it, and they don't REALLY REALLY want to quit. There is no point in even trying.
The emotional aspect of addiction to killing is well documented, and is certainly every bit as difficult to deal with as any physical 'addiction". Physical effects are relatively short lived and can be mitigated with reasonable ease, but it is much more difficult to safely alter thought and emotional processes in the brain. . . . . As far as blamng any addiction on "Big Pharma" or a competent prescribing physician, I've yet, after 63 years of observations, ever seen any of those people hold a gun to a patient's head and make them take the drug. If availability was the root cause, EVERYONE would be an addict.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-22-2014).]
At first I read your reply and I thought you were going crazy? Then I read my comment and thougt you could insert ANY words in it to come upwith a totaly worthless argument: like
How is that different than owning pets? How is that different than cars? How is that different than bikes/ How is that different than wheel chairs?
SO, to answere your reply about "guns" I would ask you to concider the side afects of "proper use" of guns vs "prper use" of heroin. People can go to the range and shoot a life time worth of ammo and not get side affects. You cant say that about drugs.
I may be crazy. If I am I certainly wouldn't be qualified to defend myself.
I asked the question just because of the way you posted your comment.
But on the subject of worthless arguments. Name a issue that doesn't have such a varying array of views. You make good points as to the difference between guns and heroin. Yet are there not people that feel guns are the most horrible thing in the world and need to be eliminated at any cost as you and many others consider heroin?
There is always a bigger picture or larger perspective on any issue.
Any issue has a relative sense of acceptance by a society. Maybe it is a relative level of consequences we are willing to allow. In truth though laws and control are an illusion that we create because of our limitations of what we will or won't accept. On a real world scale we have no power to allow or disallow anything.
A question that will never be answered by the crowd that wants to legalize it. Their answere is that its the persons falt for the "bad choices". But others can use it properly so dont take away their property rights because of misuse by some.
Looks to me like you got an answer but you just don't like it.
How do you prevent something like that?
Simple answer is you don't, not every thing is within your control nor should it be nor do you have the right to control others, as much as you might like to.
It's been said over and over. The war on drugs is exactly like alcohol prohibition. Neither worked.
Control freaks don't want to hear that.
The way I see it is that the only regulation should be making sure that the product is exactly what is stated, does what it is supposed to do (good or bad) and leave it at that.
Simple answer is you don't, not every thing is within your control nor should it be nor do you have the right to control others, as much as you might like to.
That's what I was getting at.
Heroin is illegal. The kid was educated enough to know the consequences. Not much else society can do to help. It's sad, but sh!t happens I guess.
[This message has been edited by 1988holleyformula (edited 04-22-2014).]
Simple answer is you don't, not every thing is within your control nor should it be nor do you have the right to control others, as much as you might like to.
Exactly. Personal responsibility. That doesn't mean control over another's personal responsibility. That means yours is the only one you have the right to control.
A question that will never be answered by the crowd that wants to legalize it. Their answere is that its the persons falt for the "bad choices". But others can use it properly so dont take away their property rights because of misuse by some.
So you have been listening, then! That's very close to what I'd say.
quote
Originally posted by 1988holleyformula:
I forgot how pointless this conversation becomes with you...
Anything you say he'll try and reply as if he's the only one with an ounce of reason and that you're not even trying in the conversation. I don't know who he thinks he's convincing.
I agree that we will have our opinion and they will very from person to person. Some of those opinions can be influenced by debate and reason, even my opinions are shaped by others who have made a good argument. I never said that I am always right or that I know it all. I have always said some of my opinions will never change. Legalizing drugs is one of those opinions that I have that will never change. I will never support legalizing drugs.
And I have never heard plausible suggestions that deal with the aftermath of adictions and side effects of the drugs. But what I have seen people type is heartless responses of blame, shame and screw them.
I agree that we will have our opinion and they will very from person to person. Some of those opinions can be influenced by debate and reason, even my opinions are shaped by others who have made a good argument. I never said that I am always right or that I know it all. I have always said some of my opinions will never change. Legalizing drugs is one of those opinions that I have that will never change. I will never support legalizing drugs.
And I have never heard plausible suggestions that deal with the aftermath of adictions and side effects of the drugs. But what I have seen people type is heartless responses of blame, shame and screw them.
Lets talk about the aftermath of the war on drugs as well as the aftermath of addictions and side effects. I've never said that drugs are harmless. I wish that your views on legalizing drugs were not views that you are unable to change regardless of the information people show you. I hate meth and would never even consider experimenting with heroin, but I want us to consider something besides the failed war. My drug experimentation days have been over for more than thirty years. I now use only mj both recreationally and medicinally. Very sparingly in both cases. My only negative experiences have been legal ones. I will admit that I've been luckier than some and I've been negatively affected by the drug use of others, but I see far more harm in prohibition and incarceration along with the stigma of a criminal record than in regulation and treatment for those who have a drug problem.
Lets talk about the aftermath of the war on drugs as well as the aftermath of addictions and side effects. I've never said that drugs are harmless. I wish that your views on legalizing drugs were not views that you are unable to change regardless of the information people show you. I hate meth and would never even consider experimenting with heroin, but I want us to consider something besides the failed war. My drug experimentation days have been over for more than thirty years. I now use only mj both recreationally and medicinally. Very sparingly in both cases. My only negative experiences have been legal ones. I will admit that I've been luckier than some and I've been negatively affected by the drug use of others, but I see far more harm in prohibition and incarceration along with the stigma of a criminal record than in regulation and treatment for those who have a drug problem.
Again, I have never said "the war on drugs" is winable or successful. But I do belive that even with its problems, I chose it over legalization. Pot is basically legal now and pointless to prosicute in CA. But That does not change my opinion of its legalization. I am against it.
If we are going to go down the road again.....................So, what should be "legal"?
Which is interesting, because drugs are legal if a doctor gives them to you. So, what gives him the power to have a say in how you live, or the power over anything of yours other than the services you pay him for?
My mechanic has no say in how I treat my car...
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-22-2014).]
It's been said over and over. The war on drugs is exactly like alcohol prohibition. Neither worked. Alcohol, bad. drugs, bad. creating an anti drug industry, bad. We will never make the problems with alcohol and drugs go away by making them illegal. Regulation and treatment is the best that we can do.
Exactly. The best we can do. We will never stop people from doing what they want including drugs. There is no path to a perfect world regardless of how we define it. All we have done is create a new money-wasting industry. Social pressure is the best we have but it will never be perfect. Nothing will stop it.
If we are going to go down the road again.....................So, what should be "legal"?
Stop where we are, cut our losses and dont loose anymoore ground to leagalizing moore drugs. I never proposed stopping alcohol, it will not happen even if I wanted it to be illegal. My stand has ALWAYS been not to allow the legalization of moore junk.
Which is interesting, because drugs are legal if a doctor gives them to you. So, what gives him the power to have a say in how you live, or the power over anything of yours other than the services you pay him for?
My mechanic has no say in how I treat my car...
This thread started out by pointing towards the distructive nature of legally prescribed drugs. Should we ban some of them? I am OK with that.
Your analogy of a car does not work hear. If it did I would be able to say it is illegal for a shop to take off smog equiptment (it would be thea same as you asking the Dr for something illegal ) or the shop telling you the car is not road worthy and could crash (it would bebe the same as the Dr telling you drugs will harm you)
Stop where we are, cut our losses and dont loose anymoore ground to leagalizing moore drugs. I never proposed stopping alcohol, it will not happen even if I wanted it to be illegal. My stand has ALWAYS been not to allow the legalization of moore junk.
Cut our losses? You mean continue incurring more losses as people like you limit the freedoms of others and force them into hidden and unsafe environments in fear of persecution?
Cut our losses? You mean continue incurring more losses as people like you limit the freedoms of others and force them into hidden and unsafe environments in fear of persecution?
IF you are implying legalizing drugs?? Then my answer to your question is yes. I am OK with people being in "fear" each time they buy crack and meth. I am PROUD to say that I DO want to limit American freedoms of buying crack and meth. You make it sound like I am a bad person for being against distructive drugs? I will tell you with PRIDE that I care enough for America to keep crack and meth illegal. I will also say BOLDLY that people that sell crack and meth are bad people and SHOULD be locked up.
I disagree with you. EVERY dope dealer locked up is a victory for America. Better yet they die of their own poison overdose.
BUT we disagree on lots of things, so for the sake of arguing your point to some one on the fence of this issue, what is your answer to adiction?
also you said ''This thread started out by pointing towards the distructive nature of legally prescribed drugs. Should we ban some of them? I am OK with that.''
my solution is controlled dose given out by doctors pure drugs no cuts in known doses for the true addicted and those who have chronic pain [a big drug war fallout point] for H and the pills like HC
your stupid war on people [who use drugs] is lost it cause more problems like gang wars then it ever helped it fact just like prohibition it made crime very profitable and that is all the drug war has done it has not reduced the amounts of drugs or people using it has jailed far too many for far too long it is another failed nut-con idea that the right will not drop
speed and crack are an whole other problem with few real medical uses but as a medical problem is best left to the doc's to treat one thing for sure cops can't cure anything but are very good at making things far worse as does our current jail/prison system
the answer is not to retry the nut-con drug war harder but to be real and admit it was a costly and disastrous FAILURE so lets try something else
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 04-22-2014).]
runs from keyboard
