I wonder how much our population has increased in that same time period?
I bet that chart would look a lot like this one.
Does it matter? The issue is not the per capita consumption but the absolute number of animals used and the conditions those animals are kept in and the way they are slaughtered.
Does it matter? The issue is not the per capita consumption but the absolute number of animals used and the conditions those animals are kept in and the way they are slaughtered.
Again what you see are the absolute worst cases that PETA can come up with and rare as well as in some case the PETA people themselves fabricate these videos to piss people off and get what they want, your donation to pay their people huge salaries. PETA is like a terrorist group when it comes to saving animal. remember the hurricane Katrina and they went in to save all your pets, they put all those pets down themselves. so who is the bad guy here.
Originally posted by yellowstone: What do you guys think about this?
I'd like to ask everyone who comments to actually watch the video (about 10 minutes). Thanks.
Cool video bro. Are you trying to guilt us into giving up meat ?
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Originally posted by yellowstone: True but too much meat is not too healthy anyways so we really don't buy any.
Do you have a source for this opinion ?
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Originally posted by yellowstone: Our meat consumption is already minimal and will decrease further.
... wouldn't be a practical solution unless meat consumption would go back to where it used to be for most people (once or twice per week in small amounts).
Two or three times of day for me and most people I know. Heh, I have been to many Bar-B-Ques' but never a vegan feast. As well, there are many cook offs which attract the masses but I do not recall any vegan contests.
Originally posted by yellowstone: I asked for opinions ... In my opinion ...
That video disturbed you ? It did me too. Not as much as your supporting ideology that meat eating is bad, unhealthy, unnatural. How do you feel about abortion ? I have a video for you.
You asked that anyone who comments watch the video. You asked what we think. I did both.
Let us know when you stop using all animal products. Complaining about animals being slaughtered for meat, and just eating meat occasionally is like saying you're not a serial killer, you only kill on special occasions.
Let us know when you stop using all animal products. Complaining about animals being slaughtered for meat, and just eating meat occasionally is like saying you're not a serial killer, you only kill on special occasions.
Salad: It's what food eats.
Never did I say that I'm against eating meat. If I was, I'd be a vegan already. I don't think that eating meat every day is healthy but that's not the point here.
Humans are omnivores and therefore eat meat.
What I'm against is that animals are treated cruelly before or while being slaughtered. I also think that most meat is produced in a way that optimizes production cost and I think that's a bad thing. Animals are not consumer goods.
What I'm against is that animals are treated cruelly before or while being slaughtered. I also think that most meat is produced in a way that optimizes production cost and I think that's a bad thing. Animals are not consumer goods.
Add "sometimes" to that and I will agree. I disagree, and so do most govt agencies that edible animals are not consumer goods. Livestock and aquatic animals have been bought, sold, and traded for many centuries. Both meat and plant products are produced under cost reduction practices--as are all other products and services.
Beef, goat, and mutton production is predominantly done in a very hospitable condition. It is the slaughter sector in the final few days or day of the animal's life that is causing the problems in those species. (I would be talking out of school to say the same in regards to swine and poultry production)
Both meat and plant products are produced under cost reduction practices--as are all other products and services.
Fair enough. Then I would advocate regulation and control of stringent standards regarding the breeding, husbandry and slaughter of animals. That will of course add to the production costs. Within that framework competition continues to set price levels.
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 04-03-2014).]
Never did I say that I'm against eating meat. If I was, I'd be a vegan already. I don't think that eating meat every day is healthy but that's not the point here.
Humans are omnivores and therefore eat meat.
What I'm against is that animals are treated cruelly before or while being slaughtered. I also think that most meat is produced in a way that optimizes production cost and I think that's a bad thing. Animals are not consumer goods.
What I'm against is your PETA video that was most likely the absolute worst things they could find and at best they themselves were the ones doing the things you saw on the video to make everyone feel guilty. not every animal raised for the table is treated like that, by far most are treated quite humanely in the way they are raised and slaughtered. PETA and HSUS are the worst animal rights people ever. HSUS has absolutely no shelters, only does political BS to get laws passed. PETA kills more pets than they save, by a long shot, we were members of a Pyrenees rescue for years here in Maine until they wouldn't let us rescue farm stock Guardians, because they were all show dog owners who just wanted to save the best of the best for shows, the hell with the rest was their motto.
you have to remember they all have their own agenda, PETAs is save the ones worth saving, but they don't tell you they kill more animals than they save. Did you even look at any of the links I posted? All they are out for is those high paychecks they write themselves out of your donations. And they don't tell you what their criteria is for saving an animal.
when we did rescue we tried our absolute best to save every dog or biatch we took in. We would work with them for sometimes months at our own expense to see if there was anyway we could help them with their aggression problems, house braking problems, chewing, or anything else. PETA doesn't try to help those things, they just fix the physical issues with surgery if that and adopt about 1% of those out. the rest they put down so I would take everything put out by PETA or HSUS with a grain of salt the size of my Suburban, they give money to lawyers to defend terrorists who set fire to animal shelters and things like that. look it up.
like I said all that you saw in that video was nothing more than propaganda put out to make everyone feel bad for eating any kind of meat. You do know that a strictly vegan diet is also not good for you as well right? Its just not healthy physically for a human, we are not ruminants. we do need some meat in our diet to stay healthy.
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 04-03-2014).]
like I said all that you saw in that video was nothing more than propaganda put out to make everyone feel bad for eating any kind of meat. You do know that a vegan diet is also not good for you as well right? Its just not healthy physically for a human, we are not ruminants. we do need some meat in our diet to stay healthy.
OK, show me where I said I didn't eat meat or advocated that anyone else should not be doing it... I actually wrote it in my post that you quoted!
BTW, the word you're looking for is "herbivore"...
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Ruminants are mammals that are able to acquire nutrients from plant-based food by fermenting it in a specialized stomach prior to digestion, principally through bacterial actions. The process typically requires regurgitation of fermented ingesta (known as cud), and chewing it again. The process of rechewing the cud to further break down plant matter and stimulate digestion is called "Rumination".[1][2] The word "ruminant" comes from the Latin ruminare, which means "to chew over again".
As for the vids, here's one for our Jewish members:
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 04-03-2014).]
Hey I didn't say you were a complete vegan and personally don't care if you are, to each his own. But to show a video that is obviously nothing but propaganda by the very worst of the animal rights people on the planet and think that is how they are all treated that go under the cellophane at the grocery store is naïve at best. Those are rare examples of how they meat for the table is raised. So if you are really concerned about how the meat for your table is raised, go to the farm that you buy your meat from, most farmers would be more than happy to show you around, as well as any meat that is butchered is also FDA inspected so those things are even rarer because even the butchers are inspected for how they do their part of this.
and the video you posted in your link is yet again another of the worst case scenario videos, they got busted 6 years ago, so that is old news.
Oh, ok... I had more or less heard that it was exactly the opposite, that the demand on meat and poultry had gone up significantly over the past decade and with China and India growing in leaps and bounds, they were unsure how it was even going to be sustainable in the near future.
Are you guys trying to become vegetarian, or just cutting back?
and with China and India growing in leaps and bounds, they were unsure how it was even going to be sustainable in the near future.
I think that's also a real concern.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:Are you guys trying to become vegetarian, or just cutting back?
No, cutting back and trying to get as much of the "rest" from reputable sources. No red meat or poultry at home, lean pork maybe once or twice per month but wild-caught fish every day.
The "good" meat is much more expensive but with the smaller quantities consumed, it balances out...
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 04-03-2014).]
Originally posted by yellowstone: No, cutting back and trying to get as much of the "rest" from reputable sources, e.g. local small farms. It's much more expensive but with the smaller amounts of meat consumed, it balances out...
Then don't buy from Smithfield farms or Tysons or any of the rest of the huge producers of meats, but remember this what you are watching is the worst that they could find and not all farms treat their animals like what you are seeing.
when we lived in TN many of our neighbors raised chickens for Tyson, they were treated fine from what I saw, some of those same neighbors also raised black angus cattle for other companies and even private sales. they were also treated fine. what you see in these videos are for shock value made by the worst animal rights people on the planet.
We're happy not to and will make an effort but I think that most people won't. Cheap wins. There's the problem.
Yellowstone, I hate abuse. Animal, human, nature, drugs......well, not drugs.
But have you ever seen how cruel Mother Nature deals death? Strangulation, evisceration, bled-out, drownt, ate alive, etc. I mean, it ain't fast or painless.
One animal stealing the life-force of another animal to secure it's own continuation can't be nuttin' but ugly. Humans have just perfected it.
Killing & gutting an animal never made me giddy. It just was what it was.
quote Ruminants are mammals that are able to acquire nutrients from plant-based food by fermenting it in a specialized stomach prior to digestion, principally through bacterial actions. The process typically requires regurgitation of fermented ingesta (known as cud), and chewing it again. The process of rechewing the cud to further break down plant matter and stimulate digestion is called "Rumination".[1][2] The word "ruminant" comes from the Latin ruminare, which means "to chew over again".
Not principally--100%. We don't feed the animal--we feed the organisms in the rumen--period, and different feeds and forages require different types of bacteria to process different food intake. A big no-no is to go to a different region of the country, buy a ruminant, and stick it right out in your pasture. If I were to go buy a cow or bull from an area that has predominantly legumes (clover or peanut) or even fescue for forage and stick that animal out in my pastures of bahia and bermuda, I would have to watch 24 hrs/day until it built up the bacteria in it's rumen to be able to process it, or administer some serious amts of locally formulated Probios. (It contains bacteria specific to the area)
The regurgitation is merely to further soften and cut the forage into smaller pieces to enable the bateria more ends with which to work it's magic.
Btw--do you know what's wrong with this photoshopped picture?
It's in-accurate. Bovines have no upper front teeth at all. Not as a calf or as a mature animal. They just have a hard gum area up there. Just thought I'd throw that tidbit in here. The real thing:
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-03-2014).]
But have you ever seen how cruel Mother Nature deals death? Strangulation, evisceration, bled-out, drownt, ate alive, etc. I mean, it ain't fast or painless.
One animal stealing the life-force of another animal to secure it's own continuation can't be nuttin' but ugly.
I agree completely. However, we are endowed with awareness and empathy and should act accordingly.
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Originally posted by Boondawg:Humans have just perfected it.
Originally posted by yellowstone: However, we are endowed with awareness and empathy and should act accordingly.
For the most part, we do. With 3 exceptions, the segments on cattle in the videos happened off ranch or farm--the animals no longer belonged to the producer, and he has no control over them once they enter the sale ring. The exceptions are: a. one instance of what looked like a very crowded pen at a sale barn. That, is a one day occurance at the most. Most cattle are dropped off at the salebarn (auction) on the same day of the sale for economic reasons. You get paid by the pound. Stress causes weight loss, which means every pound shed while in the holding pens, is money out of the farmer's pocket (as well as out of the sale barn owner's pocket since he is paid commission on each lb of beef that goes thru his auction.) Not unusual for a steer, calf or cow to lose 20 lbs in one day. When first dropped off, the animals are all in one or 2 large pens--depends how big the facility is, but about 10 acres is normal here. A couple of hours prior to the beginning of the auction, the animals are seperated according to type and moved into smaller pens right next to the alleyways leading to the auction ring--as many as will fit into the small pens. They are only there in tight confinement a few hours. b. Dehorning. (I have already addressed my concerns about it to you Yellowstone via PM) and I think I touched on it in an earlier post. USE Lidocaine!! c. Castration. There's no easy way to do it, and no painless way to do it. Even a vet won't use lidocaine because it is ineffective in the scrotal area. The best way is done while very young, with an elastic band that is stretched over the sac, pushed up high and released from the plier looking tool that puts the ring on. Very little discomfort at all and in 5 minutes, the calf is out grazing again. In a few weeks, the scrotum falls off--dried and healed. Second best is still with a knife or disposable scapel. I've done it this way and the bull never even flinched. The scrotum gets a lot of abuse in nature hanging down like that and is tough. Pokes by thorns don't bother it--perhaps very few nerves? Anyway, a small incision is made on the lower 1/3 of the sac, cutting it off. The testicles are then exposed, and the vas deferns (sperm duct) is severed for each testicle. Some people make one quick slice, I prefer a scraping motion, as it prevents bleeding and is less stressful and painful (my opinion from seeing it done several different ways) This is also the way my vet does it. I am not in favor of "jerking them out" as was shown in the video. I doubt that method is any more stressfull than my method, but it can cause swelling further up in the reproductive area leading to the ejaculatory duct. The incision is generally left open so it can drain except antibiotic salve or spray is applied. The worst way is a very old way, a pair of burdizzos, which resemble a large pair of nippers, but they do not break the skin. They clamp down on the sac and crush the vas defrens. I have a pair--they hang with the rest of the old farm stuff--rusty now. Haven't really used them in 40+ years--there's just better ways to do it nowadays.
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Originally posted by yellowstone:
Fair enough. Then I would advocate regulation and control of stringent standards regarding the breeding, husbandry and slaughter of animals. That will of course add to the production costs. Within that framework competition continues to set price levels.
Not sure what you mean by that in reference to large livestock. I do agree that swine need to be raised in better conditions than what I have seen in recent decades tho.
Breeding standards are already pretty high and controlled regarding cattle, and it is to the producer's advantage to allow plenty of roaming room for each. I think Steve said he raised cattle at a reduced acreage per animal, but he feeds grain. I do not supplement forage at all except for minerals and salt unless we have a harsh winter.Industry standard on moderate pasture and good forage is 2.5 acres per mother cow and calf. If you get under that, you are into supplemental feeding, and cattle are ruminants, and don't convert feed to muscle and fat as economically as they do on natural grass. They can possibly come to weight faster on grain, but not as cheaply IMO. Finishing--last 60-90 days is when we feed a lot of grain, just to increase marbling and fat content in the loin cuts. Contrary to popular belief by some, Cattle and other mammals are not bred indiscriminately; there is no "rape" involved--the female has to be in esterous (heat) before the bull will even show an interest and AI won't work either if the cow is not in standing heat (once every 29 days on average) No corpus glutem on the ovary means no fetus possible. The female won't show any interest at all in th bull if she's not in heat and won't allow him to mount her either.
Someone mentioned "corporate farms". That is predominantly in reference to swine and poultry. Almost all North American beef and dairy products are still produced on family owned and operated farms and ranches. Some may incorporate their business, but it is for tax puposes--they still own the cattle and the land and operate it themselves as they see fit.
USDA doesn't recognize the misguided but often used term "Corporate Farm". There are:
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Commercial farms were defined to be all farms with total agricultural sales (crops and livestock) above $250,000 and farms with less than $250,000 in total agricultural sales if farming or ranching was reported as the principal occupation of the operator and the type of farm organization was other than an individual, family, or partnership. This farm type thus includes all incorporations, estates and trusts, prison farms, grazing associations, Indian reservations, and other nonfamily enterprises. Intermediate farms were defined to be farms operated by individuals, families, or partnerships with total agricultural sales below $250,000 and the principal occupation of the operator was farming or ranching. Rural-residence farms were defined to be farms with total agricultural sales below $250,000 and the principal occupation of the operator was not farming or ranching. Most of the farms with livestock were farms with pastured livestock types and few other livestock, represented by 707,365 farms (54 percent). Farms with few livestock numbered 361,031 (27 percent), farms with confined livestock types numbered 237,821 (18 percent), and farms with specialty livestock types numbered 8,834 (0.7 percent).
About 49 percent of the 1,315,051 farms with livestock were rural-residence farms (645,702 farms), 42 percent were intermediate farms (549,486 farms), and 9 percent were commercial farms (119,702 farms). About 82 percent of intermediate farms and 98 percent of rural-residence farms had total agricultural sales less than $100,000. About 38 percent of intermediate farms and 75 percent of rural-residence farms had total agricultural sales less than $10,000. Only about 8 percent of farms with livestock had total agricultural sales above $250,000.
There were 143,242 farms (11 percent) with gross livestock sales greater than $100,000. Only 32,390 of these farms had gross livestock sales greater than $500,000. About 62 percent of farms with livestock had gross livestock sales less than $10,000.
Even family owned farms can and do fall under "commercial farms". I've been on several, and can say that thier cattle recieve better care and more room than mine do. The 6666 Ranch is 250,000 acres and has a less extensive stocking rate than I have. Same with the King Ranch. It is to our (the producer's) advantage, whether large or small, to keep livestock stocking rate at a sustainable rate and operate in a way that shows good stewardship of both animals and land.
Feedlots are a different story. Here's how North American beef production works for about 95% of the beef slaughtered each year. 1. Cattle are raised and bred on the privately owned and operated farm or ranch. 2. At whatever time the owner decides to sell, he hauls or sends his animals to the local sale barn and they are inspected by a vet for disease and a determination is made regarding being pregnant or not (bred or open) , the operation is inspected by USDA, and the animals are auctioned off either one at a time or in very small groups--usually one at a time.
This, is where things go downhill. I'll give ya time to digest this and finish later tho.
Originally posted by yellowstone: In my opinion, whoever is not deeply affected and by what's shown in those vids (be that the norm or the exception) is and - but that's just me.
I agree. They wouldn't let me work in a plant like that 'cause I would be inflicting sickness on those vile perpetrators.
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Originally posted by yellowstone: No, cutting back and trying to get as much of the "rest" from reputable sources. No red meat or poultry at home, lean pork maybe once or twice per month but wild-caught fish every day.
The "good" meat is much more expensive but with the smaller quantities consumed, it balances out...
The "good" meat is the red meat, . What's wrong with farm caught fish ?
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Originally posted by yellowstone: ... we are endowed with awareness and empathy and should act accordingly.
I agree. Your harping about a PETA production. Actions of my empathy would extend only to actors behaving cruelly. Do you think the fish you eat dies a painless death ? First it is deprived of oxygen and then alive gutted alive. Fish bleed too.
(not speaking for anyone but.....) The usual argument I have heard, is that farm raised fish "spend their whole lives imprisoned" in a small pond or container instead of being allowed to roam (swim) free.
Originally posted by maryjane: The usual argument I have heard, is that farm raised fish "spend their whole lives imprisoned" in a small pond or container instead of being allowed to roam (swim) free.
So no different from other meat production. The fish don't know they are not free just as other animals do not know they are deprived of utopia. Gee. If I had any more empathy I would feel guilty depriving a free species of his accustomed surroundings more so than freeing a feedlot species from it's hell.
and 
- but that's just me.
