Wages have not kept up with inflation, and I know the next argument is get a better job. I know of areas starting Police Officers off at $10/hr. Would you say they should all quit, and better themselves? Those officers are making less than someone did at McDonalds flipping burgers
When I joined the Air Force in 1964, I got paid $35 @ week. When I got out, my rent was $65 and car payment was $12...and gas was less than 20 cents a gallon. I still drove big muscle and luxury cars and didnt care.
When I think on minimum wage, I think of the following questions:
What gives you the right to tell an employee that he or she cannot accept a wage below an arbitrarily defined value?
Who decides the value of work? Do you? Do consumer? Government?
When did a job entitle a living wage? Does this include all industries? What about jobs that don't take much time or skill and don't produce much profit? Do you think employers will pay more money than a job is worth, or get rid of the job?
Can a grandchild accept $10 to mow a lawn, even if it takes 2 hours?
Originally posted by dennis_6: Would you say they should all quit, and better themselves?
Not if they are happy with their lot in life. Something to think about : If we have an artificially decided higher worth of pay rate, we are pricing our market value all the more higher than the rest of the world. Making it easier for jobs to go over seas. Sure, burger flipping jobs will stay but those making over minimum wage will also want a raise. There was a reason they were worth more.
When I think on minimum wage, I think of the following questions:
What gives you the right to tell an employee that he or she cannot accept a wage below an arbitrarily defined value?
Who decides the value of work? Do you? Do consumer? Government?
When did a job entitle a living wage? Does this include all industries? What about jobs that don't take much time or skill and don't produce much profit? Do you think employers will pay more money than a job is worth, or get rid of the job?
Can a grandchild accept $10 to mow a lawn, even if it takes 2 hours?
More come to mind. I'm at work--I'll return.
Back in the day I "knew a guy" that would talk to small business owners, and "bid" under minimum wage to get his foot in the door. "He" had no problem doing it, and every time the position worked into a well paid place in the business, if "he" was able to work there long enough (family moved a lot.)
This worked especially great a few years ago when the economy crashed, and "he" used the same technique to get a local job when everyone else was getting laid off, or couldn't find work.
I think this is more a keep up with the inflation thing, any of the things I just read say minimum wage has not keep up with inflation. and it hasn't, my first job in high school it was like $1.60 an hour. Gas was like at .25 a gallon, so lets use gas prices as our inflation example and constant I guess you could call it.
so to buy that same amount of gallons of gas to day that I could buy for 25 cents in 1970 with my min wage job, about 6 gallons. today that same gallon of gas cost what? $3.50 and min wage is what like 8 buck or less you can buy what 2 gallons of gas. not quite keeping up, and everything is related to that gallon of gas, shipping costs make everything cost more, mowing that lawn cost more, getting to work cost more and so does that loaf of bread.
I think this is more a keep up with the inflation thing, any of the things I just read say minimum wage has not keep up with inflation. and it hasn't, my first job in high school it was like $1.60 an hour. Gas was like at .25 a gallon, so lets use gas prices as our inflation example and constant I guess you could call it.
so to buy that same amount of gallons of gas to day that I could buy for 25 cents in 1970 with my min wage job, about 6 gallons. today that same gallon of gas cost what? $3.50 and min wage is what like 8 buck or less you can buy what 2 gallons of gas. not quite keeping up, and everything is related to that gallon of gas, shipping costs make everything cost more, mowing that lawn cost more, getting to work cost more and so does that loaf of bread.
its not keeping up with inflation.
Steve
Let's look at that another way. You got what 10 miles to the gallon with that 6 gallons. That 2 gallons gets you around 30 to the gallon, so 60 miles still? Looks like you can still purchase about the same amount of mobility. Of course way back then you weren't required to have insurance...
Check any year at that link. As well as a lot more info about the year.
quote
Originally posted by Khw:
Let's look at that another way. You got what 10 miles to the gallon with that 6 gallons. That 2 gallons gets you around 30 to the gallon, so 60 miles still? Looks like you can still purchase about the same amount of mobility. Of course way back then you weren't required to have insurance...
Not in any of my vehicles, then or now,
minimum wage ain't keeping up with inflation and non of the other lower paying wages are, only CEOs wages are keeping up with inflation and going beyond.
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-27-2014).]
A few weeks ago I was looking at some comparison site and figured (loosely) that the Minimum wage "back then" was equal to about 10 dollars an hour today.
I'm a little torn on this subject, just to get that disclaimer out there. I am against a Federal Minimum wage, but I'm also well aware of the hell we would have to go through if the minimum wage was repealed.
So, yes the minimum wage should be higher, but we shouldn't have to have a minimum wage either.
Adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage would only equal $4.15 if you used the rate given when the federal minimum wage was first signed into law. Seems a bit of an arbitrary comparison.
Adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage would only equal $4.15 if you used the rate given when the federal minimum wage was first signed into law. Seems a bit of an arbitrary comparison.
You have my attention, this is the first time I've heard this argument used. Can you give some clarification?
Adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage would only equal $4.15 if you used the rate given when the federal minimum wage was first signed into law. Seems a bit of an arbitrary comparison.
The first minimum wage was in 1938, 25 cents per hour.
edit: I think I posted this before but in 1958 when I started my first "real' job, the minimum wage was $1.00/hour. Since I wasn't an adult I was paid at half that rate. Anyhow, adjusted for inflation:
[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 02-27-2014).]
Wages have not kept up with inflation, and I know the next argument is get a better job. I know of areas starting Police Officers off at $10/hr. Would you say they should all quit, and better themselves? Those officers are making less than someone did at McDonalds flipping burgers
Would you rather:
-Require small businesses everywhere to pay their employees more
-Make the dollar worth more so that $1.60 CAN buy 3 gallons of gas?
I don't disagree that there is a problem, but I think you're going at it the wrong way. Raising the minimum wage is treating the symptom. Cure the disease by eliminating fiat currency and inflation.
BTW, there is a number that you did not include in your post, and that is productivity per worker. If you compensated workers by productivity per hour worked, I think you'd be maybe 30% higher than the figures you quoted.
BTW, there is a number that you did not include in your post, and that is productivity per worker. If you compensated workers by productivity per hour worked, I think you'd be maybe 30% higher than the figures you quoted.
If the job pays that way.. Alot of jobs don't do that anymore. Like where i work, i sell more product than just about anyone else there, compared to alot of the younger college aged kids that work there also.. They are all always an hour or more late to work, and sell maybe half of what i do per week, yet they get paid the same as i do, regardless of how much harder i work than they do.
Depends on where you work, some jobs do pay higher based on performance, i would say just as many, if not more do not. So that 30% higher figures can't really be added into the equation, unless every single employer and job paid based on those terms. Which they don't.
Not if they are happy with their lot in life. Something to think about : If we have an artificially decided higher worth of pay rate, we are pricing our market value all the more higher than the rest of the world. Making it easier for jobs to go over seas. Sure, burger flipping jobs will stay but those making over minimum wage will also want a raise. There was a reason they were worth more.
Its not exactly a fair game with the rest of the world, at least not till we are a legit third world nation...
Numbeo > Cost of Living > Comparison > Mexico vs United States
Cost of Living Comparison Between Mexico and United States Tweet
For major cities in those countries you could get probably more relevant data by specifying cities itself.
First city: Contribute data for another city in Mexico Second city: Contribute data for another city in United States Indices Difference Info Consumer Prices in United States are 65.92% higher than in Mexico Consumer Prices Including Rent in United States are 93.32% higher than in Mexico Rent Prices in United States are 205.68% higher than in Mexico Restaurant Prices in United States are 92.62% higher than in Mexico Groceries Prices in United States are 71.37% higher than in Mexico Local Purchasing Power in United States is 130.89% higher than in Mexico
Clothing And Shoes [Edit] [Edit] 1 Pair of Jeans (Levis 501 Or Similar) 49.37 $ 40.58 $ -17.81 % 1 Summer Dress in a Chain Store (Zara, H&M, ...) 48.79 $ 36.21 $ -25.79 % 1 Pair of Nike Shoes 81.56 $ 76.10 $ -6.70 % 1 Pair of Men Leather Shoes 60.04 $ 83.06 $ +38.33 %
Rent Per Month [Edit] [Edit] Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 291.85 $ 980.94 $ +236.11 % Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 210.49 $ 745.60 $ +254.22 % Apartment (3 bedrooms) in City Centre 581.90 $ 1,684.10 $ +189.42 % Apartment (3 bedrooms) Outside of Centre 446.33 $ 1,268.02 $ +184.10 %
Buy Apartment Price [Edit] [Edit] Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre 1,003.43 $ 1,874.98 $ +86.86 % Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment Outside of Centre 897.63 $ 1,235.42 $ +37.63 %
Salaries And Financing [Edit] [Edit] Average Monthly Disposable Salary (After Tax) 729.94 $ 3,258.10 $ +346.35 % Mortgage Interest Rate in Percentages (%), Yearly 11.18 4.20 -62.43 %
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When I think on minimum wage, I think of the following questions:
What gives you the right to tell an employee that he or she cannot accept a wage below an arbitrarily defined value?
Who decides the value of work? Do you? Do consumer? Government?
When did a job entitle a living wage? Does this include all industries? What about jobs that don't take much time or skill and don't produce much profit? Do you think employers will pay more money than a job is worth, or get rid of the job?
Can a grandchild accept $10 to mow a lawn, even if it takes 2 hours?
More come to mind. I'm at work--I'll return.
As an employer for around 15 years. Minimum wage should be the minimum the employee should accept at a threshold an employer can tolerate. You often times get what you pay for. To be fair, I'm paying for way more than I am getting with a couple people. My lowest wage employee is much higher than the poverty level. I'm recruiting...
As an employer for around 15 years. Minimum wage should be the minimum the employee should accept at a threshold an employer can tolerate. You often times get what you pay for. To be fair, I'm paying for way more than I am getting with a couple people. My lowest wage employee is much higher than the poverty level. I'm recruiting...
Remember what caused the child labor laws in the first place. I understand this isn't a simple solution, but if unbridled capitalism is allowed to reign both spouses and the kids will be working and living in poverty, and socialism doesn't work on the other hand. I am not exactly sure of the solution. I do know that we don't make as much as we used to, and every day we are making less.
Remember what caused the child labor laws in the first place. I understand this isn't a simple solution, but if unbridled capitalism is allowed to reign both spouses and the kids will be working and living in poverty, and socialism doesn't work on the other hand. I am not exactly sure of the solution. I do know that we don't make as much as we used to, and every day we are making less.
I've never hired a person under 16 without a state work permit. Our youngest worker will be 21 in a few weeks. Previously I hired youths and adults. I've never violated minimum wage laws, but I've often gotten less than minimum wage out of employees.
I've never hired a person under 16 without a state work permit. Our youngest worker will be 21 in a few weeks. Previously I hired youths and adults. I've never violated minimum wage laws, but I've often gotten less than minimum wage out of employees.
They were employed...
I am not saying you are a unfair employer, I am not saying everyone deserves min wage or a increased min wage. I am saying it is a complex problem, but it is a problem. Buying power today is not what it used to be, and that affects the employer and the employee equally. Someone is profiting from the current situation or it wouldn't be though.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 02-28-2014).]
Originally posted by dennis_6: Its not exactly a fair game with the rest of the world, at least not till we are a legit third world nation...
Who said life was fair ? I get it. Our consumer prices are higher. That changes nothing regarding lower wages over seas being attractive to US business. The more we make, the more attractive over seas labor will look.
Back in the day I "knew a guy" that would talk to small business owners, and "bid" under minimum wage to get his foot in the door. "He" had no problem doing it, and every time the position worked into a well paid place in the business, if "he" was able to work there long enough (family moved a lot.)
This worked especially great a few years ago when the economy crashed, and "he" used the same technique to get a local job when everyone else was getting laid off, or couldn't find work.
Brad
I commend "that guy." Good stuff man. I love reading stuff like this.
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:
Remember what caused the child labor laws in the first place. I understand this isn't a simple solution, but if unbridled capitalism is allowed to reign both spouses and the kids will be working and living in poverty, and socialism doesn't work on the other hand. I am not exactly sure of the solution. I do know that we don't make as much as we used to, and every day we are making less.
With how quickly information can be spread nowadays, social awareness is through the roof. Do you think those things would happen again? We are a much more mobile species than we were before. No more can anyone be locked into a town with no way out. Competition isn't just local, it's statewide, nationwide, global.
I don't think it would happen again in America.
[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 02-28-2014).]
So why is it everybody is just worried about the minimum wage earner? What about the guy who makes just above the minimum? Prices are going up for everybody should the government mandate a minimum pay increase for everyone?
How about setting a maximum wage? No more $17 million dollar a year basketball player or $25 million dollar a year CEO.
Completely agree with you. Why should some knumb nuts that ONLY knows how to play basketball get a $25 million dollar salary. Most cant even speak an intellegible sentence. I hear a lot of sports celebrities on tv and most times I can only understand 1 in 3 words.
Completely agree with you. Why should some knumb nuts that ONLY knows how to play basketball get a $25 million dollar salary. Most cant even speak an intellegible sentence. I hear a lot of sports celebrities on tv and most times I can only understand 1 in 3 words.
Who are you to tell him what he can and can't earn?
Who are you to tell him what he can and can't earn?
Sounds mighty liberal of you, Roger.
so its ok for some one to starve to death at min wage but oh no you can't cap someones maximum wage, we must be able to make millions of dollars a year, but god forbid someone makes more than the least you can pay them. sounds kind of backward if you ask me,
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-28-2014).]
so its ok for some one to starve to death at min wage but oh no you can't cap someones maximum wage, we must be able to make millions of dollars a year, but god forbid someone makes more than the least you can pay them. sounds kind of backward if you ask me,
Steve
I just don't think we should have laws on wages at all. I don't think that's government responsibility.
So why is it everybody is just worried about the minimum wage earner? What about the guy who makes just above the minimum? Prices are going up for everybody should the government mandate a minimum pay increase for everyone?
Along those same lines, why is it that 1968 is the gold standard for what wages "should" be? Why no 1978? 1938?
Should we pick a point in time and say that's what people should be paid, and adjust it referenced to that for all time? Does it take into account what a minimum wage job was in 1968 vs today? What were the advancement options in 1968 vs today? Should we raise today's minimum wage to $11.19 and eliminate that $14/hr job that you could have worked your way into, so you stay at $11.19 longer?
How about CEO pay? Should it be linked to 1968 too? Ok. So the CEO of Google, eBay, or Apple have to be paid what they made in 1968 adjusted for inflation. How much did the CEO of Google or Apple make in 1968?
Originally posted by Old Lar: How about setting a maximum wage? No more $17 million dollar a year basketball player or $25 million dollar a year CEO.
I don't think it would be very effective. They would figure out ways to get around the max wage. And failing that, they could grease some palms in the halls of gov't to get loopholes made.
Besides, I personally take issue with telling someone they can't earn more than a certain amount of money... not to mention, the inevitable abuse / misuse of such a law.
Please quote your source that someone making minimum wage starved to death in the US.
You figure it out, you got a degree, a loaf of bread costs x amount a rental apartment cost x amount, if you have a car you have x amount of dollars to get back and forth to work, if you don't have a car then you have bus fairs if that is available, then every other thing that it costs to live.
Better than that, could you, without any bank accounts pay all your bills today that you have working for minimum wage? You can't dip into any money you have invested, that you would not have if you had been working for minimum wage all these years now would you, people working for minimum wage don't make investments, they don't have the disposable income to be able to do that. and a lot of people even above minimum wage don't have disposable income to invest, something always comes up, the kids need new shoes, or Johnny needs a new cell phone, if you can even afford that and isn't even that a added expense today for someone on minimum wage? But everyone has to have one stuck to the side of their face all day long talking to someone about absolutely no importance. when you are making minimum wage it is a luxury not a necessity.
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-28-2014).]
I don't think it would be very effective. They would figure out ways to get around the max wage. And failing that, they could grease some palms in the halls of gov't to get loopholes made.
Besides, I personally take issue with telling someone they can't earn more than a certain amount of money... not to mention, the inevitable abuse / misuse of such a law.
But its ok to say a min wage is fine, even though it is below the poverty line.
You figure it out, you got a degree, a loaf of bread costs x amount a rental apartment cost x amount, if you have a car you have x amount of dollars to get back and forth to work, if you don't have a car then you have bus fairs if that is available, then every other thing that it costs to live.
Better than that, could you, without any bank accounts pay all your bills today that you have working for minimum wage? You can't dip into any money you have invested, that you would not have if you had been working for minimum wage all these years now would you, people working for minimum wage don't make investments, they don't have the disposable income to be able to do that. and a lot of people even above minimum wage don't have disposable income to invest, something always comes up, the kids need new shoes, or Johnny needs a new cell phone, if you can even afford that and isn't even that a added expense today for someone on minimum wage? But everyone has to have one stuck to the side of their face all day long talking to someone about absolutely no importance. when you are making minimum wage it is a luxury not a necessity.
Steve
You said literally nothing about starving. You do realize that, right?
Could I pay my bills on minimum wage? No, but I wouldn't have gotten the same apartment, car, and luxuries that I have today if I was making minimum wage. That question isn't relevant at all.
You figure it out, you got a degree, a loaf of bread costs x amount a rental apartment cost x amount, if you have a car you have x amount of dollars to get back and forth to work, if you don't have a car then you have bus fairs if that is available, then every other thing that it costs to live.
Better than that, could you, without any bank accounts pay all your bills today that you have working for minimum wage? You can't dip into any money you have invested, that you would not have if you had been working for minimum wage all these years now would you, people working for minimum wage don't make investments, they don't have the disposable income to be able to do that. and a lot of people even above minimum wage don't have disposable income to invest, something always comes up, the kids need new shoes, or Johnny needs a new cell phone, if you can even afford that and isn't even that a added expense today for someone on minimum wage? But everyone has to have one stuck to the side of their face all day long talking to someone about absolutely no importance. when you are making minimum wage it is a luxury not a necessity.
Steve
I started working at minimum wage like most people. You probably did too. "Johnny" doesn't get a cellphone if you're living paycheck to paycheck. If you starve to death becaue you bought Johnny a new cell phone, Darwin has been served.
Originally posted by Formula88: Along those same lines, why is it that 1968 is the gold standard for what wages "should" be? Why no 1978? 1938?
Should we pick a point in time and say that's what people should be paid, and adjust it referenced to that for all time? Does it take into account what a minimum wage job was in 1968 vs today? What were the advancement options in 1968 vs today? Should we raise today's minimum wage to $11.19 and eliminate that $14/hr job that you could have worked your way into, so you stay at $11.19 longer?
How about CEO pay? Should it be linked to 1968 too? Ok. So the CEO of Google, eBay, or Apple have to be paid what they made in 1968 adjusted for inflation. How much did the CEO of Google or Apple make in 1968?
if we are going to go back to that level of minimum wage for those working back then, how about we go back to the level of wage for those CEOs of companies as well. I believe they only made what 50 times what the lowest paid employee made back then, why is it OK for them to now make what 5,000 times the lowest paid. there is an inequity in pay from the lowest paid workers to the highest paid workers from that time that has gotten so out of hand its ridiculous
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Minimum wage is $7.25. That's $15,080 per year. That's above the poverty line for 1 person, and right at it for 2. Only when you get 3 or more people living on a single minimum wage job does it go significantly below the poverty line.
Are you saying minimum wage should be based on supporting a family of 3 or 4? More?
