I started working at minimum wage like most people. You probably did too. "Johnny" doesn't get a cellphone if you're living paycheck to paycheck. If you starve to death becaue you bought Johnny a new cell phone, Darwin has been served.
You don't get it, people on minimum wage can't afford a cell phone for their kids, hell they can't afford one for themselves and don't that is what I was trying to say. did you have a cell phone when you were working for minimum wage?
if we are going to go back to that level of minimum wage for those working back then, how about we go back to the level of wage for those CEOs of companies as well.
How much did the CEO of Google and Apple make in 1968? Please quote your source.
How much did the CEO of Google and Apple make in 1968? Please quote your source.
None of those existed then now did they? so they made $0
I'm just saying why has the difference in pay got so much bigger from the lowest paid to the highest paid in a company?
it used to be, lets just say for the sake of argument it was as I said, the CEOs made 50 times what the lowest paid worker of their company, but now they make lets say 500 times more. Why? why should that happen, why should a CEOs pay have increased to that degree? they aren't doing anymore work, if anything they are doing less, they have more assistants.
Why should theirs salary have changed so much yet their lower paid workers have not?
Back in the day I "knew a guy" that would talk to small business owners, and "bid" under minimum wage to get his foot in the door. "He" had no problem doing it, and every time the position worked into a well paid place in the business, if "he" was able to work there long enough (family moved a lot.)
This worked especially great a few years ago when the economy crashed, and "he" used the same technique to get a local job when everyone else was getting laid off, or couldn't find work.
Brad
I have done this myself, twice. Have also cut off the guy hiring me when it came to salary negotiation and told him "Let me work 30 days--2 pay periods, then you decide what I'm worth--you have my word I'll stay no matter what that figure is." It has always worked to my advantage.
Originally posted by 84fiero123: ... even though it is below the poverty line.
Heh, another gooberment artificial rate. How much did a minimum wage earner make over the poverty level in 1968 ? I can't find the '68 poverty level to see if it adjusts accordingly to the way the minimum wage has been done in this thread.
[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 02-28-2014).]
I have done this myself, twice. Have also cut off the guy hiring me when it came to salary negotiation and told him "Let me work 30 days--2 pay periods, then you decide what I'm worth--you have my word I'll stay no matter what that figure is." It has always worked to my advantage.
I tired that once, I was offered 10 bucks an hour at the last job I had, said I wanted 12, he said no. I said OK I will work for that for a month then you tell me at the end of the month if I am worth more. well come to find out the foreman only made 50 cents more then me so I knew then there was no way I was going to get any kind of a raise. no one made more than that, worst part was we didn't get paid overtime, anything over 40 hours got paid at time and a half towards vacation time. they didn't they tell me that until I put in 60 hours my first week. then he said no raise, I said fine I will only work 40 hours then, he said fine. problem was I never worked 40 hours, because I wouldn't leave a jobsite and leave those who road with me without a ride. so most weeks I was done and then some by wed. but after 3 months I think it was I still had over a month of vacation time already. when they laid me off.
None of those existed then now did they? so they made $0
I'm just saying why has the difference in pay got so much bigger from the lowest paid to the highest paid in a company?
it used to be, lets just say for the sake of argument it was as I said, the CEOs made 50 times what the lowest paid worker of their company, but now they make lets say 500 times more. Why? why should that happen, why should a CEOs pay have increased to that degree? they aren't doing anymore work, if anything they are doing less, they have more assistants.
Why should theirs salary have changed so much yet their lower paid workers have not?
Steve
If you are unable to understand why, in a now global market, that a CEO's pay has increased more than an entry level employee, then no one can help you. (here's a hint--the entry level employee is still doing about the same thing an entry level employee did back in the 60s. The global market has not affected him or his job very much if at all.)
With how quickly information can be spread nowadays, social awareness is through the roof. Do you think those things would happen again? We are a much more mobile species than we were before. No more can anyone be locked into a town with no way out. Competition isn't just local, it's statewide, nationwide, global.
Who said life was fair ? I get it. Our consumer prices are higher. That changes nothing regarding lower wages over seas being attractive to US business. The more we make, the more attractive over seas labor will look.
Same line of logic could be applied to starving children in Africa. Life is not fair. Should a police officer with a wife and a kid, be paid poverty wages because life is not fair? Its a required service for the community, should no one take the job?
[Devil's advocate] What do you think of tipping, Brennan? [/Devil's advocate]
Edit: removed unnecessary snark.
Huh? Maybe I'm missing the advocacy.
I frequently tip extremely well. If there were problems, 15%, no problems 20%. If they make me feel better in any way it just goes up from there. I've tipped well over 100%.
I've tipped 0% once. The entire restaurant deserved it. I will never go there again.
I used to work at a steakhouse. I made a crap ton of money for my age. At 16, I got good enough to bus on my own so I'd send the other guy home and I'd get double the tips for the day. On weekends we'd have 3 scheduled and I'd usually send home one guy and split his tips with the other guy. I made around $2.15/hr from the restaurant I think, but I made around $12/hr just from tips. When I became a server and got my own tips, I pulled over $18/hr on an average day. $22/hr on a good day. I think by then the restaurant was paying us like $2.35/hr. I didn't really care what they paid me. I was just in it for the tips.
This is an extremely rare case, and involved disabled workers. So many things had to fall into place for that to happen.
I understand the idea behind a minimum wage. That didn't help out these people though, right? So that's moot. I think the right of people to offer wages for services and for others to accept wages for services supersedes the good feeling we get from assigning a minimum wage. I am a proponent of liberty.
This is an extremely rare case, and involved disabled workers. So many things had to fall into place for that to happen.
I understand the idea behind a minimum wage. That didn't help out these people though, right? So that's moot. I think the right of people to offer wages for services and for others to accept wages for services supersedes the good feeling we get from assigning a minimum wage. I am a proponent of liberty.
Min wage is a fence, and fences keep "honest people" honest. Remove the fence, and those "honest people" will trespass. Don't think so? US corporations moving operations to third world nations, where they can get children to work for nearly nothing. If they could do that here, they would. If someone was desperate enough to work for a 25 cents a hour, trust me they would have no problem paying a person that. That is part of the problem, desperate people driving down the labor wages. Back to the police officer example. The Officer probably should be paid for the risk he takes. However, someone desperate is willing to take those risk for 10 dollars a hour. That is not what the job is worth, that is what a desperate person is willing to accept. People sell all kinds of things dirt cheap, when they are in need. Labor is no different. There are those that prey on people in rough spots. Sometimes employers are those people. Selling out your country to make a buck, has nothing to do with liberty. I have no problem with building a factory in China. However they should still have to pay the workers developed nation wages. Not what they can sucker desperate people to work for.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 02-28-2014).]
Min wage is a fence, and fences keep "honest people" honest. Remove the fence, and those "honest people" will trespass. Don't think so? US corporations moving operations to third world nations, where they can get children to work for nearly nothing. If they could do that here, they would. If someone was desperate enough to work for a 25 cents a hour, trust me they would have no problem paying a person that. That is part of the problem, desperate people driving down the labor wages. Back to the police officer example. The Officer probably should be paid for the risk he takes. However, someone desperate is willing to take those risk for 10 dollars a hour. That is not what the job is worth, that is what a desperate person is willing to accept. People sell all kinds of things dirt cheap, when they are in need. Labor is no different. There are those that prey on people in rough spots. Sometimes employers are those people. Selling out your country to make a buck, has nothing to do with liberty. I have no problem with building a factory in China. However they should still have to pay the workers developed nation wages. Not what they can sucker desperate people to work for.
I think it is more ethical to allow people to choose their own wages and offerings than to force minimum wages.
I know, I'm a nutbag. I accept that. It's just the way I see it. I do see your perspective, very clearly. I just think liberty is more important.
Sorry, my lunch break was over and I went back to work. I hope you didn't feel too abandoned.
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123: None of those existed then now did they? so they made $0
Steve
So how do you adjust for industries that didn't even exist? Apparently you think they should get nothing. And yet, Google, Microsoft, Apple and many others have made countless people wealthy and provided jobs for literally millions of people regardless of how much the CEOs and management made.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 02-28-2014).]
Originally posted by dennis_6: Should a police officer with a wife and a kid, be paid poverty wages because life is not fair?
quote
Originally posted by cliffw: Heh, another gooberment artificial rate. How much did a minimum wage earner make over the poverty level in 1968 ? I can't find the '68 poverty level to see if it adjusts accordingly to the way the minimum wage has been done in this thread.
In answer to your question, with a question, should he accept it ? Do I think he is worth more ? Perhaps. "Police officer" is a broad brush. You should pick another, any other vocation. Even here in a right to work state they, and firefighters, have powerful unions. They don't live too shabby. They get more than an hourly wage.
Same line of logic could be applied to starving children in Africa. Life is not fair. Should a police officer with a wife and a kid, be paid poverty wages because life is not fair? Its a required service for the community, should no one take the job?
Poverty level for a family of 3 in the 48 states is $19,530 Average starting salary for a Police Officer is $25,000
That said, I'm not aware of any jobs that base your pay rate on the number of people in your family.
The towns around me (rural) pay 10 dollars a hour to start for a police officer. This area has a large meth issue, so its not like its quaint or anything. Average is the high and the low combined, it doesn't mean anything for the men and women trying to keep their home towns safe. Btw 10/hr is 19,200 and poverty level for a family of 3.
State corrections officers get paid more, but considering the extreme risk of the job not anywhere near where they should be.... Beginning Salary for a Corrections Officer IA is $13.61/hour or $28,308.80/year. https://www.doc.ks.gov/empl.../corrections-officer
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 03-01-2014).]
Say for a moment that everyone agrees with how the poverty level is defined. If we're to define a "living wage" as one that keeps you above the poverty line, how large a family should a minimum wage job support? 1? 2? 4? 10? Whatever you set it at, someone will have an example of a larger family trying to live on a single minimum wage income and therefore be living in poverty. If keeping people out of poverty is the mandate, do we make sure no family regardless of size lives under that line? If so, do we set minimum wage to support a family of 6, 8, or 10? Is that too much? Should we set it based on the number of people in your family, so the larger your family the more you get paid? What impact would that have on the economy?
Say for a moment that everyone agrees with how the poverty level is defined. If we're to define a "living wage" as one that keeps you above the poverty line, how large a family should a minimum wage job support? 1? 2? 4? 10? Whatever you set it at, someone will have an example of a larger family trying to live on a single minimum wage income and therefore be living in poverty. If keeping people out of poverty is the mandate, do we make sure no family regardless of size lives under that line? If so, do we set minimum wage to support a family of 6, 8, or 10? Is that too much? Should we set it based on the number of people in your family, so the larger your family the more you get paid? What impact would that have on the economy?
The issue wasn't about min wage. It was about wages not keeping up with inflation and that appears to be across the board aside from the most wealthy.
When I joined the Air Force in 1964, I got paid $35 @ week. When I got out, my rent was $65 and car payment was $12...and gas was less than 20 cents a gallon. I still drove big muscle and luxury cars and didnt care.
An E1 still only makes about minimum wage. (your average workload for these individuals usually exceeds 70 hours) If the left raises minimum wage they will likely still push for a reduction in military pay. Times are about to get real tight for our youngest military.
Most fast food workers average age is 29 and are on some form of public assistance. When working people can’t make enough to live they take money from the government.
This is the question the Right has to answer. Do you want smaller government with less handouts or do you want do you want a low minimum wage because you cannot have both. If Coronel Sanders isn’t going to pay the lady behind the counter enough to live on, then Uncle Sam has to. And I for one is getting a little tired of helping highly profitable companies pay their workers.
It's time government stepped in and fixed this problem once and for all. End this capitalist experiment and let government decide what people should be paid. Everyone will get the job government deems them best suited for by aptitude tests. Then everyone will be provided a livable home and stipend. No more class warfare. Everyone gets the same fair deal. Doesn't matter if you're a doctor or a ditch digger, you still only need the same amount of room and board to live. It's time people stopped thinking success makes them better than someone else. It doesn't. You shouldn't have a higher standard of living just because you're more successful.
An E1 still only makes about minimum wage. (your average workload for these individuals usually exceeds 70 hours) If the left raises minimum wage they will likely still push for a reduction in military pay. Times are about to get real tight for our youngest military.
As someone who served 25 years in the Army, Icall BS on your thought process.
A) How many servicemembers are E1 after 6 month? A servicemember is E4 by 2 years in unless they f'd up
B) an E4 is making $25,000/year with 2 years in. If single, he's living free on base and has 3 meals a day provided for him. If married, he's getting a housing allowance and food allowance to live off base. An average of $1000/month tax free.
C) If he's got more than a kid or two at 20 years old , I had to question how bright that kid was.
I never once complained at the pay I got in the 25 years I was in.
As someone who served 25 years in the Army, Icall BS on your thought process.
A) How many servicemembers are E1 after 6 month? A servicemember is E4 by 2 years in unless they f'd up
B) an E4 is making $25,000/year with 2 years in. If single, he's living free on base and has 3 meals a day provided for him. If married, he's getting a housing allowance and food allowance to live off base. An average of $1000/month tax free.
C) If he's got more than a kid or two at 20 years old , I had to question how bright that kid was.
I never once complained at the pay I got in the 25 years I was in.
Wish there was a Like button. Raised my 2 boys on military pay. Even sent them both thru private school. My wife cleans houses on the side. Bought my house when I was an E-5.
Most fast food workers average age is 29 and are on some form of public assistance. When working people can’t make enough to live they take money from the government.
This is the question the Right has to answer. Do you want smaller government with less handouts or do you want do you want a low minimum wage because you cannot have both. If Coronel Sanders isn’t going to pay the lady behind the counter enough to live on, then Uncle Sam has to. And I for one is getting a little tired of helping highly profitable companies pay their workers.
Bill Maher
I'd like no minimum wage. A smaller government. No government assistance. You to post sources of your statements.
If Large Profitable Companies don't pay their employees enough to live on, than you and I will thru Gov. subsidies. If you don't mind paying these employees that serve you fast food and bag your groceries in addition to paying for the products, than don't complain about food stamp programs that we pay for. These corporations will continue to profit if the minimum wage is raised. Here is the difference. Large Government and taxes to pay these workers to live on. Or let the Corporations fit the bill. We may pay more for a burger but the amount of people on food stamps will go down. What do you want? You cant have both.
Here is a real kicker, Give a Walmart employee food stamps that you and I paid for and watch them buy groceries at Walmart.
Minimum wage is whatever you can get someone to pay you. The question is, by any means necessary?
The minimum wage and food stamp programs were incepted in the late thirties. They went full bore 50 years ago. Why? Americans didn't want to see Americans starve. The raising of minimum wage has not kept up with inflation and the cost of living.
Demand and supply.
Put money in the masses and they will buy goods. Warehouses and shelves will empty. Companies will need to restock. They will hire more to start up the machines again.
Supply and demand does not work. Companies will not continue to produce if there is not a demand. They will not hire more because of a tax break to hire if there is no one to buy their goods.
The rich will continue to prosper. You will be alright. The economy will grow when the masses have more money to buy goods.
I myself, think there should be a minimum percentage or some increment between the highest paid person for that company/business/ect. I understand that the highest paid person/position is primary responsible for the development and progress of the company/business/ect. they are typically the one that could cause the complete failure or success. So there fore should receive a larger percentage of the wealth (CEO, Professional Sports players, ect).
At the same time, the lowest person on the totem pole has provided a hand in the development in the company/business/ect. There fore as the profits increase, so should there share in it. Most of the time this is done by stock options and what not. but even thous the employee has to purchase the stock from the wage they are paid through the company.
As of now the average ratio is about 204 to 1. So that means if a full time employee is making $8 an hour., they would make $16,640 before taxes a year (8x40=$320, 320x52=$16,40). Now using the ratio, thats $1,632 an hour, making $3,384,560 a year before taxes (1,632x40=$65,280, 65,280x52=3,394,560). Is that CEO doing 204 times more work, no. But that individual is doesnt have a set work schedule and so on.
Over all, i believe as the top wages increase, so to should the bottom. after all, each is providing a part in the growth of the company/business/ect
The minimum wage and food stamp programs were incepted in the late thirties. They went full bore 50 years ago. Why? Americans didn't want to see Americans starve. The raising of minimum wage has not kept up with inflation and the cost of living.
You bring up an interesting point. The Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 established the minimum wage, setting the minimum at $0.25 / hour. Adjusted for inflation, that would be $4.08 today. Based on a 40 hour work week, that 1938 income of $520 per year works out to $8626.69 in 2014.
The minimum wage has grown much faster than inflation.
You bring up an interesting point. The Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 established the minimum wage, setting the minimum at $0.25 / hour. Adjusted for inflation, that would be $4.08 today. Based on a 40 hour work week, that 1938 income of $520 per year works out to $8626.69 in 2014.
The minimum wage has grown much faster than inflation.
Inflation and cost of living are not the same. Cost of living will continue to rise even if inflation flattens or goes down. Your lack of understanding economics is obvious.
Inflation and cost of living are not the same. Cost of living will continue to rise even if inflation flattens or goes down. Your lack of understanding economics is obvious.
Really? Please share your source material for your cost of living data. My data was based on the Consumer Price Index. What is your "cost of living" based on?
Really? Please share your source material for your cost of living data. My data was based on the Consumer Price Index. What is your "cost of living" based on?
1938 Wage: $0.25 = $4.07 in 2014 (with US CPI Data)
Yes, if you want to compare it at its creation in 1938 during the great depression you are correct. Just wondering if you consider 1938 as a time that worked out well for companies and employes? Why was it raised to a higher amount over time, if the 1938 amount worked so well? Would you say that since we are getting closer to the 1938 value, that the economy is doing better? Are employers making record profits without the burden of a 1968 level min wage?
how about the maximum money one person can "give" to another in one year = Min Wage * 40 * 52
makes it real easy to define how worthless a value that really is. no "heir" would be able to live on that. and that would be for doing NOTHING. a Mistress wouldnt even accept that. but, that is WAY to much for a working peasant, eh?
yes...never would have had to live thru the "Paris Hilton" years if all she got was Min Wage/year.
we could even return to a being Republic, where we dont elect heirs & kings....
sorry - all the crying is BS. raise the min wage, and those of us who actually ARE productive will just make more, the prices will rise, and min wage will be junk again. Those of us who actually ARE productive will lose nothing. The only losers will be those sitting on piles of $$$ which are now worth a bit less. Thats It.
raise it. print more money. whatever. those of us who can do - will do - and thrive. the only losers with inflation are the unproductive.
