Like Blackk88GT said, you may have a hard time prosecuting this in criminal court, but you sure have a civil case on your hands. Civil Law is much different than Criminal Law.
Like Blackk88GT said, you may have a hard time prosecuting this in criminal court, but you sure have a civil case on your hands. Civil Law is much different than Criminal Law.
Quote from article: "In Colorado, state law makes criminal libel a felony carrying up to 18 months in prison and a fine up to $100,000 for the first offense."
Originally posted by Silicoan86: The profile is private so I can't see it but at least it has a location.... Edit: not much of a location other than state...doh! Also shows he's only 18, so it really is a bunch of kids doing this...
Like Blackk88GT said, you may have a hard time prosecuting this in criminal court, but you sure have a civil case on your hands. Civil Law is much different than Criminal Law.
Bob
Don't waste your time Bob. Let these e-lawyers figure it out on their own. And good luck trying to get a lawyer on a contingent fee basis.
Quote from article: "In Colorado, state law makes criminal libel a felony carrying up to 18 months in prison and a fine up to $100,000 for the first offense."
So when I was active duty in Florida with a Maryland home of record I could kill someone in Florida and face Maryland prosecution?
Use common sense.
edit: I realize the UCMJ and everything but you get prosecuted where the alleged offense took place not where your HOR is.
[This message has been edited by Black88GT (edited 02-09-2007).]
Added the word 'alleged' since I got a nice little email from a certain 'Phil d. (full last name known)':
"dear Mr. Pennock
Please remove my name from your list of "adversary's". I am not one of the guys who sent p.m.s of fraudulent claims. Since you named me as one of your suspects I have been banned from two forums; I believe this is defamation of character, and if you do not remove my name I will be forced to take legal action. Thank you.
sincerely Mr. d."
I don't see his name anywhere, but at least he provided me with a possible full last name.
PS: And since I never posted a full name here, and you are not a member of PFF, just by sending me that email you implicated yourself.]
So when I was active duty in Florida with a Maryland home of record I could kill someone in Florida and face Maryland prosecution?
No. I was only pointing out that it would not matter if he did it from his home in Colorado or at school in Oklahoma that both states have laws regarding the crime. At present the crime was committed in Oklahoma so that is the state in which he would be prosecuted in. In the example I used Colorado because it was listed as an example of the punishment the crime can command.
I did use common sense, You just assumed incorrectly.
Sorry, don't get me wrong, I think you need to go after these slimeballs. I just don't think a prosecutor will take the case, regardless of whether a crime was committed. I think the best way to get them would be through other methods, such as having people kicked out of school, or persuing the Civil system and suing there a#^.
I'm behind you all the way Cliff...Once the account is set up, I'll pitch in.
And you've taken how many classes on U.S. Law? I am in the fast track law school program at the University of Baltimore so I will be there next year, thanks for asking though.
It also helps when you work in a court house and know several lawyers personally.
I'm not trying to be a d!ck, I am just trying to save you some time. But hey I have a red bar so I don't know anything, haha
[This message has been edited by Black88GT (edited 02-09-2007).]
They might think it's just a prank but they knew what they did was wrong. Do they realize it was a crime and there are penalities? Off topic slightly but recently we had 4 students let the air out of 104 school bus tires. Cute little prank. School was cancelled, parents had a mad dash finding child care (we didn't know the extent of the damage until after the time we needed to start picking up students), employees still got paid for a non-productive day (not just drivers but other faculity also), outside aid to repair and inflate the tires was hired, police investigators were brought in. They're charged with tampering with school buses and bus vandalism, both 5-year felonies. Their parents might have to pay restitution.
Harmless little prank...
There's not much I can do, but add my drop to the waterfall.
And you've taken how many classes on U.S. Law? I am in the fast track law school program at the University of Baltimore so I will be there next year, thanks for asking though.
Of course you are.
quote
It also helps when you work in a court house and know several lawyers personally.
Wow... do you have some kind of auto-bot thing running all the time, watching for your name to show up? It's amazing how many times over the years I have seen a "Phil" mentioned and within just a few minutes you post that response!
Not complaining... more power to ya. It's just incredible how quickly you notice these things.
There seems to be a pattern of escallating pranks, this event seriously crossed the line. This one really scares me because it attacked Cliff's business, income and his ability to support his family, I'm worried about what may be next. The simple high school pranks have turned into deliberate vengeful attacks.
Cliff understands that this cannot remain unchallenged, the legal procecution and process is the best way to go now. If the end result of legal recourse is a slap, it nevertheless is a legally documented and public records slap which can be used to document a history of spiteful assaults in court if this type of behaviour continues.
At this time I want to remind everyone that this has indead turned into a legal matter, we should consider conducting ourselves in a manner that will produce a satisfactory result for Cliff through the legal system.
Cliff, I have supported you, the forum and members for years through positive contributions and will continue to do so. You have my promise on that.
------------------ jetman Silver 86 SE 2M6 4-speed, with "check wallet light"
Wow... do you have some kind of auto-bot thing running all the time, watching for your name to show up? It's amazing how many times over the years I have seen a "Phil" mentioned and within just a few minutes you post that response!
Not complaining... more power to ya. It's just incredible how quickly you notice these things.
Here's a test...
---> Phil <---
(Now, let's see how quick he replies! )
Now that's the same Phil
[This message has been edited by Phil (edited 02-10-2007).]
It seems to me that the parties involved, or allegedly involved on the word of one or two, don't have any assets to claim. And, as brought up in other threads, if you win a monetary settlement, don't expect to collect. Aaron may very well get expelled from school for his actions, (eighteen is an adult in this country), the minor needs to publicly apologize or whatever, maybe public service warning kids about these type of consequences, and the other two... well, a criminal conviction should do. And permission to post that on Cliff's forum, like hanging a dead crow on the fence to keep the others away. With a minor involved, I wouldn't set out to ruin his life, but making an example of him seems right. I guess Aaron will end up seeking a new school/career path. Shawn et al, unfortunately will probably end up with a judgement on them, which should affect them financially for a long time - like when they apply for a loan, or a background check for a decent job. Squeeze one, see how fast they give up the others. Maybe they can be restricted legally from getting on the web? Anyway, I'm in. Announce the Paypal address for 'clean up the internet legal assault team' and I'll contribute. ------------------ John DuRette Custom 85 SE/87 Coupe "Kinda makes you nostalgic for a Members Only jacket"
[This message has been edited by USFiero (edited 02-10-2007).]
Cliff, I would assume that your clients that received the PMs/e-mails are aware of computer hacking? Since you have contacted them explaining what happened about your site being hacked by a couple of teenagers, it would logical to assume your clients would fully understand and so ultimately not cause you really any harm other than maybe the embarrasement of being hacked? I agree that Aaron and anyone else who was involved should be punished for hacking and disrupting your business. I would also like to give my support in the hope that you are successful in being able to teach them a very valuable lesson.
ack, all these pages. sorry, just noticed this as work + selling ebay stuff to clean garage out more I didnt notice anything wrong til I saw mention of Robert 2 talking about aaronz34 or whatever his name is.
Cliff, do you have that paypal account setup, and if so can you post it here.
and imho pm's should be used with valid information, as much as these guys need to be punished, putting info on here could lead to a very angry fiero owner going off the deep end and doing something horrible.
also, do these guys THINK? if god forbid cliff closed PFF because of the economic loss (his family comes first), did aaron and his friends realize it only takes 1 deranged Fiero owner to erase them from existance? I know someone else would take over the PFF hosting, but some might take it as the end of PFF and totally lose sight of reality.... going off the deep end.... and making it their lifes goal of distroying the distroyers. end of rant, good luck Cliff, and to those people helping him with the lawyers/searching/the guy with the OSU ties, thank you also... a big + in my book.
He was doing this from one of their machines, not remotely using the connection. I've never seen a subnet with .1 public.
He's actually kinda smart, and stupid at the same time. Anyone smart enough to know what to do to him, wouldn't be stupid enough to attack a college. He has made this his employer's business though.
Here's an interesting one: I'm just noticing, while sweeping that network, that the 139.78.10 range is not even active. Out of 65,536 possible addresses, not one in that range. Just seems odd to me.
Did anyone actually get the machines name so I can parse the results to see if it's active at a different address?
(BTW, there is nothing even bordering on illegal about sweeping like this. Lame little 12 year olds do this all the time.)
I would assume that your clients that received the PMs/e-mails are aware of computer hacking? Since you have contacted them explaining what happened about your site being hacked by a couple of teenagers, it would logical to assume your clients would fully understand and so ultimately not cause you really any harm other than maybe the embarrasement of being hacked?
Just a clarification, that forum was not hacked. They simply registered as a new user and made a mess of it by posting a link to RFT in every single thread, and by creating a bunch of new topics with pr0n images and the usual "here's Cliff and his wife" messages. If that was all there was to it, I would have simply cleaned up and went on. But they (Aaron) took it a step further by not only posting the "it's my software" message in the forums, but PM-ing it to every single member.
I have sent an explanation email to everyone who received the PM and got quite a few reactions from people telling me they understand fully what happened. A few have even offered their (legal) help. But to be absolutely honest, I'm not worried about those people. Some of the people who received the PM are big clients. With others I was negaotiating the possibility of OEM versions of my software. And even though they tell me they understand, I really have no idea how this will affect them. But I guess you can imagine for yourself what the consequences can be.
The general rule of thumb for choosing which court of law to sue in is whichever one you [Cliff, in this case] are most comfortable/have the most experience in. Therefore, if your lawyer [should you be able to find one who will take the case] thinks that you can win, I suggest you sue in the Netherlands' courts. This is where your servers are based, this is where you are based, and this is where many of your clients are based... therefore making it easier for them to testify. [I was able to find about 5 members on your business forum member list from the Netherlands]
Also, it means that if the case goes to court, the kids being prosecuted will have to travel all the way to the court, which is probably not going to happen. It would also make their lawyers very expensive... and if the kids aren't able to pay for them, their lawyers will probably suggest they enter a plea of "Guilty" and be done with it. [The language barrier/hurdle might be a bit of a challenge for the kids as well.]
However, since there is an entire ocean in between you and the "supposed" perpetrators, this will all probably be settled out of court, over fax machines. Yay technology!
The general rule of thumb for choosing which court of law to sue in is whichever one you [Cliff, in this case] are most comfortable/have the most experience in. Therefore, if your lawyer [should you be able to find one who will take the case] thinks that you can win, I suggest you sue in the Netherlands' courts. This is where your servers are based, this is where you are based, and this is where many of your clients are based... therefore making it easier for them to testify. [I was able to find about 5 members on your business forum member list from the Netherlands]
Also, it means that if the case goes to court, the kids being prosecuted will have to travel all the way to the court, which is probably not going to happen. It would also make their lawyers very expensive... and if the kids aren't able to pay for them, their lawyers will probably suggest they enter a plea of "Guilty" and be done with it. [The language barrier/hurdle might be a bit of a challenge for the kids as well.]
However, since there is an entire ocean in between you and the "supposed" perpetrators, this will all probably be settled out of court, over fax machines. Yay technology!
Janell
How would they be required to show up to the court hearing? The Dutch can't make an American appear in their courts. And vice-versa. I think if/when any action is taken it will have to be done stateside.
[This message has been edited by Unsafe At Any Speed (edited 02-11-2007).]
From what I've read, it's a HUGE web of intersecting laws and other fun stuff. European law takes precedence over national laws, and treaties do too. All in all, I think a lawyer would be the best bet. They know their stuff!
From what I've read, it's a HUGE web of intersecting laws and other fun stuff. European law takes precedence over national laws, and treaties do too. All in all, I think a lawyer would be the best bet. They know their stuff!
Janell
Regardless, there's no way Cliff would be able to make Aaron or anyone else appear in court in the Netherlands over this. That's all I was saying. Pursuit of it here is the only possibility that I see.
Regardless, there's no way Cliff would be able to make Aaron or anyone else appear in court in the Netherlands over this. That's all I was saying. Pursuit of it here is the only possibility that I see.
You are right in that Cliff can not make them appear, but the law might require them to appear... but all of this is speculation and a lawyer will be able to answer all of the questions.
My offer to pitch in to help with legal fees is still there.
Just a sidenote, alot of people have said these kids have no assets, so you can;t get anything. wrong. they have parents. under 21, their parents are still legally and finacially liable for the actions of their children. so if you were to sue them and win in civil court, their assests and those of their parents can be siezed or held in escrow for payment. That is the sad state of legality now in th US. for example, those that have their kids get their own car insurance so if they have an accident the parents won't be liable are not gaining anything. if they kid gets sued due to an accident, after the insurance max is reached, they will go after the parent's assets and win. Explain that to your kids.
As for a first approach, all the isp's must be notified wiht the info, you don;t need a lawyer for that. The isp will create an incident/case file, and Cliff should be advised of what their findings are and any actions taken. that will be required to persue this further as that will now bring an outside "witness" into the case and provide a level of proof for Cliff so that it doesn;t turn into a he said/they said thing.
I was thinking about this whole deal in my Administrative Law class today. Unless Cliff can prove that he was injured (i.e.- lost money, etc) the court probably won't do anything civily because the case would lack standing. From what he's said, that hasn't neccesarily happened yet. This is not to say, that criminal charges would not be able to be brought though. At that point, it would be out of Cliff's hands. I don't know though, just some thoughts.\
But since I have a red bar and offered a possibly discouraging thought, I'll probably get negged.
I know I'm new here, so I really don't have much pull, but for what its worth, I can hope to add my $0.02 and maybe help out as much as possible.
Using the term 'hacking' is a very touchy subject in the world of computer science and systems security. Not all 'hackers' are also 'crackers'. For example, I am applying to take my Ethical Hacker Certification before the end of this year. Most 'hackers' are hired by large companies to find exploits, holes in security, and potential misuses of software such as we've seen on Cliff's other set of forums.
The malicious misuse of the software would be correctly coined as 'cracking', and would therefore be a crime in at least 17 states in the US. There are more anti-cracking and internet-libel laws appearing across the country. Because the attack consisted of a drawn-out, thought-out process that will have taken at least a couple of hours to accomplish, the intent for malicious misuse of the software becomes self-evident. And because there is evidence of the intent of malicious use, a criminal 'cracking' case can be made. Combine this with the libel-wrought message that was spammed as a result of the alleged attackers' use of the private message system, and you have both criminal and civil suits available.
In fact, my System Security class I took (I'm a computer science major, intending on grad school to follow through with Artificial Intelligence design.), provided a scenario eerily similar to the one presented to Mr. Pennock. Let me use the question right out of the hand-out given by my professor.
"A small business, 'Home Design Solutions', emerges in your area. They are a business specializing in home automation networks. They set up both a server for connections to home security systems and optional exterior home surveillance, and a webserver. Their website has a few different pages, as well as a web forum for technical support. A malicious user, known as a 'misfeasor', gains a legitimate account on the server, and uses his newfound account priveledges to send a libelous message to every customer on the accounts list, claiming 'Home Design Solutions' uses the surveillance cameras contained in their optional package to look into customers' private rooms in the home. The result is a 40% decrease in sales, and the loss of 15% of the customer-base. This misfeasor is punishable by: "
And there are four answers given in multiple choice format: A) Civil lawsuit only B) Criminal case only C) Both A and B D) None of the above.
According to my professor, the answer was C.
While the above seems to probably have trivialized the whole situation, and I apologize for how it is coming across, I'm trying to bring out a point. The point being: Mr. Pennock's situation is not unique in how he has been attacked. If it was common enough to have been given on a quiz in a small college's computer securities course, it's probably happened in the past to other companies. And if it has happened to other companies, and they have decided to persue the case, there is probably going to be precidents on file with the court systems. Also, judging by how widespread of a problem 'crackers' actually are, there are probably court precidents surrounding this situation worldwide. That is a huge generalization for me to be making, I understand that. And I probably shouldn't. But again, it is to bring out the point.
The kids that pulled this stunt give the term 'hacker' a bad name, and as a result, give anyone under the age of 25 who know a thing or two about programming a bad name as well. Cliff, I sincerely hope you can make examples of these punks. Again - I may not have been around here for very long, but leave me a PM with the paypal account, and I will gladly donate to the legal fees to see that they get what's coming to them.
That's just it though, while he may not have suffered a huge loss, (And I really hope he didn't.), there was intent. Malicious intent. They don't arrest people on attempted murder unless there is intent. That's why we have the difference between assault and attempted murder. In this case, we have just 'cracking' and then there's the intent to cause serious damage, the libel. Weather or not it did cause damage, the false information spread about Cliff's software is libellous either way. There is still a civil suit that stands, even if the criminal does not. However, in 17 states across the US, misusing software as has been done, for malicious purposes, is considered a crime regardless of the outcome. So the criminal case can still stand, depending on where the attack originated from.
Intent is only for criminal courts. I wasn't talking about that.
As far as libel goes, it still only applies if there is an actual injury incurred. Otherwise, it could apply to anything. For example, I could say on here that you like dogs...alittle too much (no offence, just an example) and then you could sue me. Or I could call somebody here I know a douchebag and they could sue me for slander. But it doesn't work that way.
)
