I don't know what happened but thanks for give the rest of us a chance. This is the first time I ever felt comfotable in a forum of any kind. Yes I could tell that there were trouble makers out there and I just moved on by them. There are no clubs up here that I've found and I only know one other person with a Fiero. Without this forum I would not of beem able to do some of the work to my car. Thanks to the people that have reached out and offered their help. It's nice to know that other people like their Fiero's and we all meet here. Thank you Pennock's Fiero Forum for being what you are.
Almost all message boards have problems like this from time to time, sometimes caused by trolls, sometimes cuased by arguments between members. It sucks, but sometimes you have to ban people.
Cliff, please don't let let the problems with a few become the focus of attention. Most folks in the forum are great and and help each other out. To many things in life are ruined by a few and many of us would lose a lot due to these few. I've learned so much about my Fiero since Feb. and would really feel a loss if you were to close the site. Thanks for not closing down and swat those who refuse to respect the rules like a fly.
Hey Cliff, thanks for keeping the Forum open for us diehard Fiero enthusiasts.We as a group just need to ignore those people that are always starting flames. The best way to deal with fire is to just dowse it with a good heap of cold water(in this case a cold shoulder so to speak). Since this is your Forum , looks to me like you could weed out the ones you'd like off here. Thanks again, Ronnie
I would like to also thank you for re-opening the forum... The forum has provided me with a vast pool of information, which allows me to keep, repair, modify, and some day complete an engine swap to my 84 2m4 and 85 2m6....... Living in today's world, the bad/negative factors always seems to cast a shadow over the postive... ReOpening the forum and the great people of the forum gives me hope that we can over come the negative factors... Once again.... Thanks from the Gulf Coast...
What can you do except stifle specific threads and troublemakers? I suppose you could nuke the "Totally O/T" forum, but that probably would move all the BS to "Fiero Chat".
Anyhow, let me extend a thoroughly inadequate "Thank you" for your work and expense in maintaining this forum.
You posted a message about a year ago concerning the cost of maintaining the forum. As I recall, NO ONE expects you loose $$$ to give us this service. You mentioned the possibility of using banner ads to help pay the cost. I say go for it.
Also, have you considered the possibility of running the forum from a US web site? I'm sure it would be a big savings.
I know some people questioned your cost estimates for operating the web site from the Netherlands. To those people, let me say this...Have any of you ever lived in Europe? I lived in Greece for 2 years. Let me tell you about phones. There is no "unlimited local calls" like in the US. All calls, even local are toll calls. Assuming Cliff operates the forum through a regular dial up ISP. With over 2,700 members, its on line 24-7. That is a VERY large phone bill. SO CUT CLIFF SOME SLACK OVER THE COST!
In the some of the previous posts I saw the words "Club". Well hmm in most cases that would mean we would pay dues or something to use this board and then we would have some say in what happens.
This is not a CLUB! its just a:
Extremely LARGE posting board that is great and put together very well and for the most part has some very good people on it.
I have found this place to be a great source of information and was grateful to find it. People should not get in the mindset they have a say here. They don't. Cliff did what he needed to do and has the right to do anything he wants. Being I have been away for awhile, I don't know exactly what happened but anyone who thinks he "HAD" to re open this Board, the one HE PAYS FOR!, has a misconception(ed)that REALLY worries me.
With that said, Cliff, I thank you for the board and all the great help it has brought me and the other Fiero fans. I can't say I didn't see this coming, The handwriting was on the wall. A lot of us were seeing some absurd posts on the board lately. The posts were getting a little out of hand and Cliff just needed to do a "Wake up" call. For that, Cliff I applaud you.
I didnt know the board was closed till I saw this but if there is anything in the way of support we can offer, as so many have already offered, please let us know Cliff.
And again, thanks for the Forum
Rob
------------------ Robert 88GT 56k T TOP North Florida Fiero Club
Originally posted by Galen: I'll nominate Orief as a moderater.. I think he'd be a good one.
I 2nd the nomination of Orief... I would like to say Thank You also... I have mentioned many times on here before, We OWE Cliff for getting us together.... Steve
------------------ Future add's.. 2" drop, 17" wheel's, finish the turbo T-3watercooled project, ViperYellow :D:D with a 100-125HP shot of NOS w/ the T-3...
Cliff, thanks for everything. I agree with the people who say ban the fool, some folks just don't play well with others! I'd also be willing to pay a reasonable amount for access, after all, this is my homepage and most common on-line destination!
As if someone cares about my opinion, I think there should be a nominal yearly fee.
Sure a small fee would help Cliff defray some costs (which would be a bonus), but the reason I advocate a fee is that it would clean up the quality of the membership a lot. Look at it this way, the guys who cruise the 'net looking for various Forums where they can raise hell then take off for the next site, wouldn't pay a $5.00 fee to cause problems here when he can go elsewhere free.
I don't think we need moderators, Cliff has been doing a great job with leaving everyone have a lot of freedom. The jerks can be handled (& kept to a minimum) by just loudly booting a couple of them from time to time. Multiple Moderators would confuse issues by bringing their personal opinions into that job. When people are not allowed to dis-agree for fear of being booted then this Forum looses it's value.
I feel that pulling the plug on this was a great wake-up call (sorry I missed it yesterday). However, I think the PFF is not going to be well served if the membership feels that the plug can be pulled anytime. IMHO, the thing that makes this group so appealing is that people are allowed to disagree without without worrying about the plug getting pulled. However the threat of cutting off individuals for major insults etc. should be the tool used & it should be used by the ONE PERSON in final authority. When someone posts a message that has no Fiero value and that is intended as an insult to one or more members, he should be slapped around in public and then booted if it continues... period.
I don't pay any attention to the O/T section & maybe that section needs tighter moderation, but the Tech & General sections for the most part are fine.
Cliff, I know it's been a while since I have expressed my appreciation for everything that you have provided us... but I do sincerely appreciate it.
Fella's, if it weren't for Cliff creating this wonderfull environment for us... I would not have been able to rebuild my GT (last year), or make some cool friends.
Cliff does a damn good job taking care of this place by himself. I will say that it has grown probably too big for one person to handle, but that is up to him.
You know, everyone is entitled to an opinion (that's what makes most of us free), however there are few people SMART enough to know that you need to hold that in!
I am on my honeymoon and have no idea, really, what has transpired here... but I will say this... DONT SCREW UP A GOOD THING!
This is not a club, or a cult, or a pay per view thing (although if Cliff did charge a nominal annual charge, he could easily cut people off)... this is a place for people to meet and share information, and chat... not to attack each other. Attacking individual's on this forum is a truely childesh endevor.
I now stepp down from the platform and once again say: THANK YOU CLIFF... FOR EVERYTHING!!!
------------------ hoop Red '86 GT 5 speed *Black '86 SE Automatic
I have been on the wrong end of EDsB52s comments in a couple of threads. So, I am not surprised that he has experienced more trouble.
The Forum can be moderated by anyone. Cliff is the guy that can pull the plug, but all of us have a responsibility to defuse the conflicts that arise on this Forum.
We all love Fieros so I think we can all see this Forum is the lifeblood of our hobby/obsession. Put another way, when you are on Pennock's you are "on sacred ground."
This Forum is the "Church of Fiero." When someone acts up in church, the priests do not have to throw them out. The congregation enforces the peace in a church so well no one even thinks of starting trouble there. I mean seriously, have you ever seen a fight in a church (words or physical).
This Forum is a community. I think Cliff keeps it around because it is full of interesting members that share his love for the Pontiac orphan-sports-car-mobile. If I were him (which I am not), I would be in it for the feeling of community.
So, when we as members go off on proving we are right, insulting other members, judging, cheating, lying . . . It is all sin.
I am not religous, just concerned that the message/lesson is not being learned.
YOU MUST TREAT YOUR FELLOW MEMBERS WITH RESPECT ON THIS FORUM
If you don't like it, don't post. I think Cliff is too dissapointed, forgivably so, to say this himself:
When you say "bad" things about Fieros or other members, you hurt all of us deeply. When you allow, or join in, a flame war you make all of us look like trailer trash.
Treat this Forum as if it were sacred. Do this not because you fear it being closed but rather to set a better example for your Fellow members and the other Forums out there.
As the J. Giels Band once said so elloquently,
"This is muma-guma with the green teeth and I am here to say . . you abuse it, you gonna' lose it!"
Further, if you see a flame war or misdeeds then post your opinion that such behavior is childish and unnacceptable in this Forum. Don't pick a side and don't fight to shove your opinion down the throats of the other members.
It's like pollitics, if you allow a little corruption then it will spread as a disease like cancer.
This Forum would benefit from a little chemo-therapy. Cliff has taken the first step, but it is up to all of us to keep this place friendly.
Cliff, I know most of us don't usually take the time to let you know how much we appreciate you and the forum, but we really do. Thanks for everything you do for the Fiero community.
Jaime
[This message has been edited by Jaygee79 (edited 07-04-2001).]
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Just had another whopping 4 hours of sleep. Ed, you are [b]really starting to piss me off majorly. You are not the center of the universe and therefore not the cause of everything that's happening. I can not believe you turned the fact that I re-opened the forum again into a "I told you so, he's doing it because of some legal advice he has gotten". Let me tell you Ed, you are probably the biggest paranoid moron I have met online since I'm on the internet. I did it because I was kinda sorry for you people were directing their anger at you. And you can't even respect that. Man, I do hope you get some help. And I do hope you will stay out of the forum from now on. You are continuously trying to piss me off and try to attack me and the forum. And no, I don't respond to attacks very well. If you have a problem with that, fine. I coudn't care less. So go on and do whatever you feel is necessary. But stay away from the forum from now on. You want to turn this into a legal issue? Go ahead, try me.[/B]
Well what can I say I can't exactly reply IN TIME as I was away, but here is a little note for this guy..... No threats come to him from me -- Excluding maybe the legal ones.
Ed -- Just remember ONE THING, should you decide to go overboard and MAKE THIS LEGAL Cliff will have the financal support of over 1000 people in this forum to legally push you into the GROUND. While you can sit there with your $100 retainer lawyer and get your a$$ chewed...... Have a nice day.
Originally posted by grinthock: Well what can I say I can't exactly reply IN TIME as I was away, but here is a little note for this guy..... No threats come to him from me -- Excluding maybe the legal ones.
Ed -- Just remember ONE THING, should you decide to go overboard and MAKE THIS LEGAL Cliff will have the financal support of over 1000 people in this forum to legally push you into the GROUND. While you can sit there with your $100 retainer lawyer and get your a$$ chewed...... Have a nice day.
Who's running what into the ground? I have only begun to answer a fraction of the posts/emails against me. I'm not bringing up new issues, just answering old ones. You guys are collectively posting at a rate that far exceeds my ability to answer them, and you're some kind of victims? As far as I know, I'm still welcome here. If Cliff wants me gone, he can remove my ID and I'll go away and not reenter as a new user name. If the members want me gone, start a petition. I'm not unreasonable. Cliff was willing to delete a post of mine and close two others. It would probably take less effort to remove my ID than to remove a post.
Financial backing of 1,000 members? If you feel it necessary, pass around the hat. Remember, winning a lawsuit is somewhat like betting on a football game; you have to win before you get paid. Money can't change the facts; only enhance the way they're presented. In other words you can't buy your way into a win. Now if you have millions of dollars and political influence you might be able to nullify that rule, but I'm willing to bet that the hat wouldn't yield a thousand dollars as it returned to Cliff's crack legal team. Besides, the club has immediate recourse, they/he can remove my ID.
I find it amazing at the number of members who find it necessary to empower themselves through threats of violence and litigation. It's actually laughable. Were you the guys that got picked on in high school?
People have asked me what I've done for members of the club, or the club in general. I've given away a bunch of parts to different people and made offers of free parts to others. I've offered up information such as how to remove a clutch (my way) and was poopoo'd. I've written information about other mechanical things as well. Then I entered the posts about gear ratios and the wheels came off. It seems an underlying status quo exists that you better not dare permeate. Certain topics are taboo to the club 'royalty,' for lack of a better word, and you shouldn't debate them.
Through your writings you made an opinion statement; you said that as of now, I have not gone overboard. Thanks, of course I haven't. Also, I would not need a retainer. I would probably go Pro Per, short for Properia Persona. And if/when it came time for trial I would go Pro Se. Maybe you can pass around the cerebral hat to your 1,000 folks and see if you can figure out simple Latin. Have a better day, Ed.
This is the problem Ed --- I didn't have an issue with your post, until the last statement when you said (and I Quote)
"Maybe you can pass around the cerebral hat to your 1,000 folks and see if you can figure out simple Latin. Have a better day, Ed."
Why do you say this? All this does is cause the much hostility that many people feel you are causing, YES, this was my opinion, for 90% of your post you accepted it as an opinion and (exuse me for saying) frigged off, but then you put that last sentance in there and I bet that MOST members here would agree with me that it's THIS SIMPLE fact that causes alot of the trouble around here.... (I am even totally guilty!)
Never took Latin (where would I ever use it?), but I'm guessing that you'd represent yourself. BTW--E Pluribus Unum. Scienta est potentia. Caveat emptor. Some might say that you are sui generis. On the other hand, I am sine qua non. And finally, you are persona non grata.
'Nuff said!
------------------ 'Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.'
Well Ed it was nice of you to put down that righteous sword of yours for a second, it's greatly appreciated. I'm sure you can understand why many view you as "the bad guy" since your persistence is well known. I will not speak for Cliff instead I'll only say what I know. Cliff will close/remove threads in order to keep the peace that's fact 1. If anyone wanted to, as evidenced by your second thread ignore Cliffs guidance and continue to dredge up the mud and piss people off Fact 2.
So ok you will keep coming back if your ID is pulled and you'll keep pissing people off and you'll keep getting "Hate mail" and, and, and. So where will it end Ed? when you have successfully destroyed everything because you want to make a point? That is very thoughtful of you, perhaps we should thank you for it.
You know you took some low shots at Cliff and I don't think I could have been so tolerant of such blatant disrespect. I too have felt the heat from members of this forum and had gotten my fair share of "flame mail" from same, but you know what Ed. I still respect them all.
So ok you win but I for one will (after this blows over) ignore EdsB52 for as long as you use it. I'll probably read your stuff but I'll conceder the source when placing value on it. I'm sure that won't bother you a bit, Will it. Thanks Ed
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-05-2001).]
Originally posted by grinthock: This is the problem Ed --- I didn't have an issue with your post, until the last statement when you said (and I Quote)
"Maybe you can pass around the cerebral hat to your 1,000 folks and see if you can figure out simple Latin. Have a better day, Ed."
Why do you say this? All this does is cause the much hostility that many people feel you are causing, YES, this was my opinion, for 90% of your post you accepted it as an opinion and (exuse me for saying) frigged off, but then you put that last sentance in there and I bet that MOST members here would agree with me that it's THIS SIMPLE fact that causes alot of the trouble around here.... (I am even totally guilty!)
Remember this?
"Ed -- Just remember ONE THING, should you decide to go overboard and MAKE THIS LEGAL Cliff will have the financal support of over 1000 people in this forum to legally push you into the GROUND. While you can sit there with your $100 retainer lawyer and get your a$$ chewed...... Have a nice day."
You threatened to collectively sue me, or was it to legally push me into the ground (veiled threat)? I seem to forget between being insulted and threatened. Anyway, it was a fair statement on my part as to the nature of my knowledge of the law and the tenacity to which I will defend myself against purely frivolous law suits. What do you want me to say? Are you guys so omnipotent as to think I'll yield to your threats? Hey, I'm just having fun in this forum and don't want to hurt anyone. Ed.
HOLY SH!T what the heck is going on here? I've never seen/read Cliff so pissed off. That sucks that someone could piss him off that bad, we've had some stupid stuff go on here and Cliff always maintained a mild, calm demeanor. I don't know what's going on. I'm in Kosovo and only get to check the forum like once in a blue moon and now I hear of it closing then reopening and Cliff getting all pissed. It seems like everyone forgets the real reason we're all here. FIEROS!!!Hello?
WEll anyways, I nominate Stimpy for moderator if he's still hanging around here, I think he'd be awesome, no B.S. would go on in his forum,lol. That's all I have to say except this to Cliff, My little phrase that gets me through all the crap the Military shoves on top of me is F$^K IT!
Ed, I hope you give it a rest soon, because you are really becoming, if not already, by making a complete and utter _ss of yourself. Not only to me as I see you now, but apparently to the rest of the Fiero community and family here as well, to which you could have successfully been a part of here at PFF.
I don't know how you allow people to treat you inside "your" house when you welcome and invite them in. However, I am almost positive if they disrespect you in anyway that you would consider inappropriate, you (or perhaps your gf/wife) would let them know in no uncertain terms or will boot them out and not take any guff as the door knob is hitting them. And I am sure you would have rules or at least boundaries to which you would expect them to act within.
And here it is, complete, absolute disrespect for not only our HOST and his guests to which you were allowed into his house to also be part of.
He himself, not to mention his "guests" have informed you on numerouse occassions that they do not find such actions appropriate.
A smart, considerate person would realize this in this situation and take it as constructive feedback that they themselves are crossing a boundary and/or social standard found to be offensive and back off and/or leave entirely to save face and at the same time come out with, if not salvage a little respect from the others.
As I said in another post on another thread which for clarification is not directed towards you, but to all of us here at PFF in general, that "You are never too old to grow up".
If you have taken offense by that last statement, then I will have to assume that one has issues to deal with on a personal level.
Cliff is our HOST. We are his "invited" GUESTS. He has the right to tell us what we are allowed to do in "his" house, warn us if and that he feels our behavior is out of line, kick us out and/or lock the door entirely to that individual or all of us without worrying someone is going to come back and threaten him or if he decides to do something different. Again...it is his HOUSE; not yours; not mine; not anybody's here. So I feel we all better start thinking about that.
I have had it, you just don't know when to stop.... I do.... Now.... I propose, and suggest, and ask (as a possible future moderator) that no furthur posts to this thread be made..... It only fuels a fire we all want to see stop.....
Please do not use the Reply button here. Thank you.
Originally posted by grinthock: I have had it, you just don't know when to stop.... I do.... Now.... I propose, and suggest, and ask (as a possible future moderator) that no furthur posts to this thread be made..... It only fuels a fire we all want to see stop.....
Please do not use the Reply button here. Thank you.
Originally posted by JSocha: Who died and left you moderator?!?!?!?
He's practicing for his new job.
quote
Probably bad timing...
Short out the two diagnostic terminals on the ALDL and check the timing. It should be 10 Deg BTC on piston #1. Sometimes the notches on the harmonic balancer may be off.
Originally posted by JSocha: Ed, I hope you give it a rest soon, because you are really becoming, if not already, by making a complete and utter _ss of yourself. Not only to me as I see you now, but apparently to the rest of the Fiero community and family here as well, to which you could have successfully been a part of here at PFF.
I don't know how you allow people to treat you inside "your" house when you welcome and invite them in. However, I am almost positive if they disrespect you in anyway that you would consider inappropriate, you (or perhaps your gf/wife) would let them know in no uncertain terms or will boot them out and not take any guff as the door knob is hitting them. And I am sure you would have rules or at least boundaries to which you would expect them to act within.
And here it is, complete, absolute disrespect for not only our HOST and his guests to which you were allowed into [b]his house to also be part of.
He himself, not to mention his "guests" have informed you on numerouse occassions that they do not find such actions appropriate.
A smart, considerate person would realize this in this situation and take it as constructive feedback that they themselves are crossing a boundary and/or social standard found to be offensive and back off and/or leave entirely to save face and at the same time come out with, if not salvage a little respect from the others.
As I said in another post on another thread which for clarification is not directed towards you, but to all of us here at PFF in general, that "You are never too old to grow up".
If you have taken offense by that last statement, then I will have to assume that one has issues to deal with on a personal level.
Cliff is our HOST. We are his "invited" GUESTS. He has the right to tell us what we are allowed to do in "his" house, warn us if and that he feels our behavior is out of line, kick us out and/or lock the door entirely to that individual or all of us without worrying someone is going to come back and threaten him or if he decides to do something different. Again...it is his HOUSE; not yours; not mine; not anybody's here. So I feel we all better start thinking about that.[/B]
Hey dingleberry, in case you haven't noticed, the people keeping the fire burning are people like you. You need to throw some parting shot at me, in your mind, before the issue goes away, which it already has. Nice of you to speak for the rest of the forum, too bad many people who have emailed me happen to disagree with you. Oh, I am a success in the forum. I don't need to satisfy your requirements to be a success. I have made friends in here and learned a ton of valuable information about Fieros. Whatever your skewed definition of 'success' is, does not affect me. Many of Cliff's 'guests' approve of what I do in whole or in part, they just wish to remain anonymous so they don't fall under the scrutiny of guys like you, and will remain anonymous to the rest of the club with me. Wait, could you clarify that house rules thing again? After you ran it into the ground for the 40th time I still wasn't able to grasp it.
This is getting lame. I for one don't see how some of you get mad at Ed for keep on posting replies, I mean, what do you expect? Your doing the same thing he is! If you would just keep it to email and/or not post anymore about it, it would go away.
Again, I am not defending him, just putting myself in his shoes. If I was being repeatedly attacked on any public forum I would have to reply to defend myself. If I made a post "Jsocha is a loser" would I expect JSocha to not post anything or get mad at him when he does? Take a step back and think about it. Like Stimpy said "...take a break from throwing stones and polish your glass houses for a change."
I think Cliff is trying to move on from this. He blew his top at first but I think he has calmed down and is ready to continue on. If there is one thing I know about Cliff is that he doesn't hold grudges which I respect.
<edited for spelling>
[This message has been edited by Black88GT (edited 07-07-2001).]
Well, my last personal comment to the response to the upper most post is that I will not waste my time any further commenting. It is not worth any further effort as it has already stated and strengthned my opinion.
