So I installed a pair of Halo headlights a while ago but never wired up the Halos. I had a thought, so correct me if I'm wrong. I thinking that if I were to rewire the Halos and the headlight motors to come on with the marker lights, that will allow me to have the headlights up with just the Halos turned on. Thus keeping the actual headlights on the same (but now separate) circuit. In short, Markers, Halos, & motors on one circuit operated by the marker light switch. Headlights on their own circuit operated by the headlight switch. So I guess what I'm asking are there any load issues or anything to prevent me from doing this? Has anyone done something similar?


This is for a '85 2M6 with the old headlight system.

quote Originally posted by twestie: So I installed a pair of Halo headlights a while ago but never wired up the Halos. I had a thought, so correct me if I'm wrong. I thinking that if I were to rewire the Halos and the headlight motors to come on with the marker lights, that will allow me to have the headlights up with just the Halos turned on. Thus keeping the actual headlights on the same (but now separate) circuit. In short, Markers, Halos, & motors on one circuit operated by the marker light switch. Headlights on their own circuit operated by the headlight switch. So I guess what I'm asking are there any load issues or anything to prevent me from doing this? Has anyone done something similar? This is for a '85 2M6 with the old headlight system.

Shouldn't be hard to connect the halos to the parking lights, shouldn't draw to much power, if they are led, but to get the headlight mechanism to work in the way described would be very hard and require some out of the box thinking. There are so many different relays and switches controlling them now that adding anything without extensive thought is sure to short something. I wired up a system to show me to wink the headlights but that is only powered when the headlights are up and use additional relays to "channel" the voltage from the factory wiring to the headlights. There are many ways it can go wrong.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/147547.html

A simpler thing is to connect the halos to park light circuit, then press the headlight up button, and when they are up, either pull out just the headlight button, or if the switch is stiff, quickly turn everything off, then parking lights back on. When parking lights are on, the motors are unpowered, and will stay in whatever position they are currently in (up)

With that in mind, why would you want your headlights up like that, in the daytime they should be down, at night they should be up and on, if it's bright enough that you don't need full headlights, you don't need parking lights and halos, they are called parking lights for a reason (originally intended to be left on while vehicle is parked on the side of a road with no lighting about a century ago) similar to our use of hazard lights today.

If you want daytime running lights, change the lower front marker light, either wire it to be on with ignition signal (relay powered off coolant fan relay) or get a fancy dual bulb lense or some switchback led thing.

⚠️ In many places cops can/will stop you for "weird" or illegal lights.

Is Illegal in most places to have Parking Lights On w/o HL On while Driving. For that matter... In some states, Parking Lights On even on a Parked Vehicle have restrictions too. (Related, Fog/Driving Light On Only When Low Beam HL are On.)

All versions of DRL have Rules too & require to "run" w/ Parking Lights Off including HL wired to be DRL when in DRL mode. (HL DRL mode requires Low Beams @ 50% power too.) Also why Many new vehicle w/ DRL turn off the DRL partly or totally when Turn light are On.

Many Mod'ed Front Park/Turn to be DRL but that has problems even when GM et al did that to some vehicles at factory when in early years allowing/requiring DRL.
Example: GM did that some trucks & others & 3157 bulb (1157/2057/2357 but w/ different base) died fast & cook the fixture too because Kept the Bright Hot Filament On for Hours.
Many Fiero (& other old cars) did same & "melted" the fixture, lens or both, worse w/ TFS replacement Lenses.

LEDs have problems to start regardless of the Hype pushing them & Illegal too in external fixtures made for standard bulbs.

See https://web.archive.org/web...cast.net/~fierocave/ light section

"halo" HL bulbs that "replace" H6054 etc often have problems & even when you ignore there Illegal in US & many other Countries because not "DOT Legal" or otherwise "approved." Perform poorly by light output is bad, burns out way soon, or both. What may look as Sealed Beam Bulbs on Newer Jeeps w/ "halos" installed when made are Fixtures that uses 9003 & related HL bulbs same as other "Aero" HL assemblies. Or can be a SB w/ added "halo" around that & at some distance look as one piece.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave

quote Originally posted by theogre: ⚠️ In many places cops can/will stop you for "weird" or illegal lights. Is Illegal in most places to have Parking Lights On w/o HL On while Driving. For that matter... In some states, Parking Lights On even on a Parked Vehicle have restrictions too. (Related, Fog/Driving Light On Only When Low Beam HL are On.) All versions of DRL have Rules too & require to "run" w/ Parking Lights Off including HL wired to be DRL when in DRL mode. (HL DRL mode requires Low Beams @ 50% power too.) Also why Many new vehicle w/ DRL turn off the DRL partly or totally when Turn light are On. Many Mod'ed Front Park/Turn to be DRL but that has problems even when GM et al did that to some vehicles at factory when in early years allowing/requiring DRL. Example: GM did that some trucks & others & 3157 bulb (1157/2057/2357 but w/ different base) died fast & cook the fixture too because Kept the Bright Hot Filament On for Hours. Many Fiero (& other old cars) did same & "melted" the fixture, lens or both, worse w/ TFS replacement Lenses. LEDs have problems to start regardless of the Hype pushing them & Illegal too in external fixtures made for standard bulbs. See https://web.archive.org/web...cast.net/~fierocave/ light section "halo" HL bulbs that "replace" H6054 etc often have problems & even when you ignore there Illegal in US & many other Countries because not "DOT Legal" or otherwise "approved." Perform poorly by light output is bad, burns out way soon, or both. What may look as Sealed Beam Bulbs on Newer Jeeps w/ "halos" installed when made are Fixtures that uses 9003 & related HL bulbs same as other "Aero" HL assemblies. Or can be a SB w/ added "halo" around that & at some distance look as one piece.

Yeah there are a lot of rules to look into when making changes, along with how fussy the police in your area are, where I live, you are actually allowed to make necessary modifications on an older vehicle without DRLs to add DRLs, dot certified or not, as long as there is some forward facing light that is on during the daytime, they allow that because they require all cars to have some form of DRLs, even older ones from before they were required. My DRLs use a name brand LED in the front lower marker lights that is a little brighter then the original front lower marker bulbs, I run the DRLs on the parking "filament" on that bulb, wired to a relay with power and ignition signal coming from the radiator fan relay.

quote Originally posted by 1985 Fiero GT: Yeah there are a lot of rules to look into when making changes, along with how fussy the police in your area are, where I live, you are actually allowed to make necessary modifications on an older vehicle without DRLs to add DRLs, dot certified or not, as long as there is some forward facing light that is on during the daytime, they allow that because they require all cars to have some form of DRLs, even older ones from before they were required. My DRLs use a name brand LED in the front lower marker lights that is a little brighter then the original front lower marker bulbs, I run the DRLs on the parking "filament" on that bulb, wired to a relay with power and ignition signal coming from the radiator fan relay.

In the US LEDs are Not for use in any external fixture w/ tungsten bulbs for many reasons. USDOT/NTHSA has long "ban" replacement LEDs & Why many have "off road use only" on the package but Osram/Sylvania etc knows the product will sell & be use on street vehicles. Even ignore that, Cops see a light is Too Bright, Too Dim, Weird/Illegal colors, or in the wrong places (like lights under a car) are enough to stop in many places.

Real Fact is most replacement LED & a lot of Factory Install LED in vehicles Do Not last long for many reasons. Highlights: Road vibration, crap power, power surges, & moister etc getting in the "fixture" that Tungsten bulbs often ignore kills LED fast. I've stopped counting how many Prius etc w/ partly or total dead LED taillights years ago. And many stay "dead" because high cost to replace the whole thing from/@ a car dealer. WORSE when have blind-spot & other electronics in that too. Example: www.thedrive.com/news/how-t...d-into-a-5600-repair

I just HAVE to!


Sorry all you purists, technology has passed you by, Sorry you can't see the way forward.80's - 90-s headlights


The irony.

#SorryNotSorryTechnologyHasMovedOn

[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 03-30-2024).]

quote Originally posted by jelly2m8: I just HAVE to! Sorry all you purists, technology has passed you by, Sorry you can't see the way forward.80's - 90-s headlights The irony. #SorryNotSorryTechnologyHasMovedOn

To be fair to the Fiero, the 5x7 halogen headlights hold up very well compared to older seperate bulb/lense designs, if you think the Fiero is bad, those are horrible! Also the 5x7 halogen has been updated with the most recent halogen technology, so a modern bulb is much better then an original from the 80s would have been. That being said, I will be changing them out for something that performs better, just not something flashy that obviously didn't come with the car.

quote Originally posted by jelly2m8: I just HAVE to! Sorry all you purists, technology has passed you by, Sorry you can't see the way forward.80's - 90-s headlights The irony. #SorryNotSorryTechnologyHasMovedOn

I couldn't agree more. Regulators have dragged their feet on keeping up with vehicle lighting since the adoption of the sealed beam headlight in about 1936. Europe has always been light years ahead of the US on keeping ahead on lighting technology.

I use Hella H4 headlights in my Fiero with well engineered, high quality LEDs. The Hella H4 headlights are glass, with well designed lenses, that don't deteriorate and cloud up, rendering them useless.

Properly engineered LEDs emit a light source in the correct location to properly reflect light and make these headlights far superior to the more modern polycarbonate fancy headlights that become cloudy, with poor lighting results. Most important, headlights need to be aimed properly to provide useful light for driving and avoid blinding oncoming traffic. It is not the amount of light that is blinding, it is headlights that are not properly aimed causing the blinding.

I have used European spec headlights since I got a drivers license, many decades ago. I have never been questioned about my headlights that have always been properly aimed.

The nice thing about Fiero headlights is that, if you don't like how they look, they are only visible when you turn them on.

As far as being legal or not, I feel the same way about my 3800 conversion that is way less polluting than the original 2.8, but it is illegal in California where I don't live.

quote Originally posted by jelly2m8: I just HAVE to! Sorry all you purists, technology has passed you by, Sorry you can't see the way forward. <snip the rest & BS FB link>

You like many others just drink your coolant Koolaid claiming LED HL & more are "Better..." Often Most because you believe the Hype from most Trade Rags like "Car & Driver" & more pushing same BS often they know is BS & just following PR/Marketing handouts from the Brands because want that Ad/Sponsor $ so they "Lie." Others Lie outright like TL/BTR did & still does after changing names again.

Worse Often Most compare to 6052 etc Non-Halogen lamps or Factory Installed Halogen using Less Power thus Making Less Light & so on & most cases isn't even "Apples to Oranges" but far worse...
Many Recent to Current H6054 uses Same Bulb types insides as many new vehicles w/ "Aero" HL assemblies. You have little or no difference on Light Output.
Even in the 80-90's any Halogen SB HL was Way Better then 6052 & others "normal" Tungsten SB & Many GM Cars Still came with them Including Fiero & other Low Trim "Base" models into the 90's.
Many High Trim models like any w/ "GT" label also came w/ "Weak" "Dimmer" Halogen running ~ 35W low 50W high. Plus many buy "Basic" Halogen bulbs in the aftermarket that are "weak" to sell cheap @ any store vs SilverStar etc.
That Ignoring Many vehicles have Wiring Problems that will make Any lighting look "dim" "yellow" & worse when people buy just "DOT Legal" "SilverStar" class that pulls More Amps that Cooks HL & Beam Select Switches & more to the point can even start a Fire. H4 w/ even Higher Amp Draw Bulbs often quickly melts a lot of electric parts.

I & others work in Automotive, Tech & Electronics & seen the BS is getting way deep w/ LEDs because Same BS happen w/ HID "Upgrade" before. Only a 1 or Very Few Real Companies made a HID kit for old SB systems that meet most to all FMVSS 108 etc but Philips "Xenarc" SB Upgrade cost $700-900 & soon cancel that line.

You & "Friends" claim "Modern HL" are better too... Yet IIHS & others Org's have actually Tested Many New HL setup for US & EU markets including High $ Models & results is bad news because many are Crap regardless Halogen, HID or LED based. Because Car Designers often have No Clue & Don't care if the Lights are working only "they look cool" & Bean Counters & other "management" types quash many other trying to isn't good so just make sure Passes FMVSS 108 or whatever reg's for other markets @ Bare Minimum & be done.

Then add Bad Plastics on "Aero HL" cars > ~ 10 years old is still a huge problem. Many current models have problem when just > ~ 5 years parked outside, under trees, etc. Vs Good SB w/ Glass Fronts or whole shell look same @ 10 20 even 50 years later.

Also go and Read the LED HL Warranty from Trucklite GE etc... Those High $ LED have 1 to 3 years max & have Many Ways in the doc to Void them because of crap power & other problems in most vehicles.
MOST "Halos" of any types, HID & LED "upgrades," & more on Amacon Eflay etc don't have a warranty & cheap because are a Complete Scam many w/ Bogus DOT &/or ECE marking. Those companies don't care & rarely take down crap vendors because get a huge amount of $ & when does, same vendor just get new name & account in Hours.

Isn't just crap car parts... Just follow Fashion Counterfeiting Problems for a few days... Even if Amacon or Eflay completely stopped selling "Red Sole Shoes" or whatever Fad of the Week, Wish, Temu, AliEx & others keep on sell the crap in the US & EU.

quote Originally posted by theogre: I & others work in Automotive, Tech & Electronics

I didn't think I would ever have to question you, because you have alot of valuable knowledge, but there is absolutely no f**cking way your still in the industry and still believe 30 year old and older technology ( and I AM being generous) Even compares to modern lighting and braking.


Time and technology has passed you by.

quote Originally posted by jelly2m8: Exactly, we have more efficient and less polluting engines, some of us better braking, better lighting etc, a better and safer car. Do not let old bitches stuck in their way's hold you back.

I have owned the Fiero I have now for more than 26 years. Twenty five years ago, after my first track day, the brakes were updated, followed by 2" drop spindles in front, bump steer correction in the rear and carefully selected springs on both ends. My car has the weight distribution and handling characteristics of a shifter cart. The 3800 SC with 12 miles on it, came in 2003 and still runs as well as it did when first fired up. I could buy a much more expensive car, but would not find a car that's more fun to drive. I didn't ask any government agencies for permission to make my car more efficient or safer to drive. Neither have I been told by and government agency that my car is illegal in any way.

To keep up with change and technology should be encouraged and shared, not shunned and belittled. I'm not willing to be that person with the dim, yellowish headlights that are more dim than my parking lights. Seeing and being seen is too important to be stuck with 1930's technology. Buying a new car is not the answer, as new cars have headlights that are often worthless after 5 years and unavailable to replace by the ten year mark, along with the many recalls on thousands of new vehicles.

When your car is 3" off the ground, you notice headlights that are poorly aimed, especially new cars with government approved brighter LED headlights. Most people are car owners who view their cars as a tool to avoid walking, biking or using public transportation, not car enthusiasts. Some say, they don't like to drive at night, but have no clue that, on their new modern car, one headlight is burning a hole into the road 10 feet ahead of them and the other is examining power and communication wires along the road. Enthusiasts are interested in fixing and improving, taking an active role in car ownership, keeping up with technology and describe their responsibility in its operation as driving, not riding.

For those who are restoring or keeping your Fiero in original condition, I applaud you and the important work you are doing to maintain the legacy Fiero models. To those who are just discovering a Fiero, you have begun a fun adventure where you can learn a lot, enjoy your accomplishment and have a great and safe driving experience.

I am old, but not a "***** ". I have never been one to be held back, intimidated or insulted by those who may think I am clueless. My mother taught me to not be rude or arrogant.

I learned a long time ago that, the only difference between a rut and a grave, is how long you are in it.

quote Originally posted by jelly2m8: I didn't think I would ever have to question you, because you have alot of valuable knowledge, but there is absolutely no f**cking way your still in the industry and still believe 30 year old and older technology ( and I AM being generous) Even compares to modern lighting and braking. Time and technology has passed you by.

100% Wrong about my work & 95+% on everything else Because You & others Ignore or Refuse that Most LED "Upgrade" and HID "Upgrades" before them Are Complete BS & keep clinging to the Hype Machine sucking down Koolaid. You can't even read IIHS & others proving many Car Brand Factory Installed "Modern" HL simply Suck but still clinging to Modern is Better.

While Can Get LED HL that are "DOT Legal" for US and "ECE Legal" for EU/UK/etc That Meets all rules in those Markets like units from Truck-lite but many barf when seeing the price... For U.S., T-L # 27450C is still sold but Discontinued. 37450C replace it. 37455C is same but added heating to front. Yes, LED HL often Need Front Heating so Weather won't Freeze during Driving. Expect to spend $300-400 per set. Why Don't want them because: 1. High $ & Too Short Warranty & easy for them to void it. 2. Fiero is simply not used enough to justify the High $ even if last years. 3. Even when 37450C uses way less power "To Save the Planet" or "just save problems in old wiring," the Halogens uses 0 power because there Off > 90+% of driving & I already fixed/replace HL wiring issues. 4. I have 2016 SUV to drive any distance & get same or better MPG then most Fiero doing same drives.

But Most see the Crap sold online costing a lot less & 90+% of the public have No Clue Why or simply Do Not Care & want any Cheap Crap. Fact: Amacon Eflay are Flooded With Scam HL & other "Upgrades" & millions of other things & Counterfeit products too by ignoring Trademark etc raking in Billions of $ & Hind Behind Section 230. Now add many get worse crap from Wish, AliEx, Banggood, Temu (Last 3 are China Co's that doesn't even hide the counterfeiting & other problems.) & still don't care & wonder why the junk has chemicals that burn or poisoning them/kids/pets, have car problems, house is on fire because Crap LiIon battery, etc, etc...

Before more fools claim I hate LiIon too, Wrong. I own/use a lot of LiIon powered stuff like 50+ Ryobi One+ Tools and use Ryobi batteries not "knock-offs" god known where/how their made.

Many love the EU/UK light rules But here more Calling BS on your claims...
Old but still true about HID showing MOT Fail and before MOT rule change, Illegal HID conversion kits explained - Auto Express https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5n38wDe684
Newer covering HID & LED in Halogen Shells will Fail MOT just 2 years ago, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REv6xjVlypA

Since you when there... You have Same problem for most "Brake Upgrade" for old cars. Bet you love "Lift Kits" for Truck claim boost cargo ignoring GVWR & more... In the Real World your "Modern Braking Upgrading" plans/claims for any old car not just Fiero are a Myth @ Best. This Requires ABS & More that Most Modern Cars Actually Have. Yet "Experts" claim can bolt on/in any Brake "upgrade" to old cars brakes like Big Booster crap is = the same are Only Fooling Yourself. Or Some Store pushes Same BS to get more $ like TFS have been doing for 20+ years w/ GA "upgrade."

You & others what "Modern Vehicle" brakes yet Ignore or Too Dumb to know the facts that ABS, Traction Control, etc, often Breaks & when does, Brake System often performs in "Weird ways" but often you only find out when try to stop on slippery roads or Panic Stop & ABS Does Nothing & spin out or kill someone. ABS & other Warning Lights often don't Light for many reasons or ignored because Replacing ABS "hyrdo black boxes" can cost Hundreds to $1000+ just for that 1 part. Even "just" 1 Tone Sensor to a wheel can be a very expensive part then add labor to install. I have Own Driven & Service enough "modern vehicles" to see the problems first hand & also see many owners junked or sell cheap because of bad ABS alone. I doubt most here never looked @ Labor Rates @ most shops now. In my area many small shops > $100/hr, Many others are > $200/hr. EV Dealers are even Higher if can even book a job. Expect to wait Months to get Recall or any Work from most dealers of any type too.

quote Originally posted by theogre: [QUOTE]100% Wrong about my work & 95+% on everything else [b]Because You & others Ignore or Refuse that Most LED "Upgrade" and HID "Upgrades" before them Are Complete BS & keep clinging to the Hype Machine sucking down Koolaid. You can't even read IIHS & others proving many Car Brand Factory Installed "Modern" HL simply Suck but still clinging to Modern is Better. While Can Get LED HL that are "DOT Legal" for US and "ECE Legal" for EU/UK/etc That Meets all rules in those Markets like units from Truck-lite but many barf when seeing the price... For U.S., T-L # 27450C is still sold but Discontinued. 37450C replace it. 37455C is same but added heating to front. Yes, LED HL often Need Front Heating so Weather won't Freeze during Driving. Expect to spend $300-400 per set. Why Don't want them because: 1. High $ & Too Short Warranty & easy for them to void it. 2. Fiero is simply not used enough to justify the High $ even if last years. 3. Even when 37450C uses way less power "To Save the Planet" or "just save problems in old wiring," the Halogens uses 0 power because there Off > 90+% of driving & I already fixed/replace HL wiring issues. 4. I have 2016 SUV to drive any distance & get same or better MPG then most Fiero doing same drives. But Most see the Crap sold online costing a lot less & 90+% of the public have No Clue Why or simply Do Not Care & want any Cheap Crap. Fact: Amacon Eflay are Flooded With Scam HL & other "Upgrades" & millions of other things & Counterfeit products too by ignoring Trademark etc raking in Billions of $ & Hind Behind Section 230. Now add many get worse crap from Wish, AliEx, Banggood, Temu (Last 3 are China Co's that doesn't even hide the counterfeiting & other problems.) & still don't care & wonder why the junk has chemicals that burn or poisoning them/kids/pets, have car problems, house is on fire because Crap LiIon battery, etc, etc... Before more fools claim I hate LiIon too, Wrong. I own/use a lot of LiIon powered stuff like 50+ Ryobi One+ Tools and use Ryobi batteries not "knock-offs" god known where/how their made. Many love the EU/UK light rules But here more Calling BS on your claims... Old but still true about HID showing MOT Fail and before MOT rule change, Illegal HID conversion kits explained - Auto Express https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5n38wDe684 Newer covering HID & LED in Halogen Shells will Fail MOT just 2 years ago, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REv6xjVlypA Since you when there... You have Same problem for most "Brake Upgrade" for old cars. Bet you love "Lift Kits" for Truck claim boost cargo ignoring GVWR & more... In the Real World your "Modern Braking Upgrading" plans/claims for any old car not just Fiero are a Myth @ Best. This Requires ABS & More that Most Modern Cars Actually Have. Yet "Experts" claim can bolt on/in any Brake "upgrade" to old cars brakes like Big Booster crap is = the same are Only Fooling Yourself. Or Some Store pushes Same BS to get more $ like TFS have been doing for 20+ years w/ GA "upgrade." You & others what "Modern Vehicle" brakes yet Ignore or Too Dumb to know the facts that ABS, Traction Control, etc, often Breaks & when does, Brake System often performs in "Weird ways" but often you only find out when try to stop on slippery roads or Panic Stop & ABS Does Nothing & spin out or kill someone. ABS & other Warning Lights often don't Light for many reasons or ignored because Replacing ABS "hyrdo black boxes" can cost Hundreds to $1000+ just for that 1 part. Even "just" 1 Tone Sensor to a wheel can be a very expensive part then add labor to install. I have Own Driven & Service enough "modern vehicles" to see the problems first hand & also see many owners junked or sell cheap because of bad ABS alone. I doubt most here never looked @ Labor Rates @ most shops now. In my area many small shops > $100/hr, Many others are > $200/hr. EV Dealers are even Higher if can even book a job. Expect to wait Months to get Recall or any Work from most dealers of any type too.

As far as I know, the Fiero store has removed the ga upgrade and the big booster. Also, like I said before, the Fieros halogen headlights are not bad, compare them to basically every vehicle from the 80s to the 2010s with the "shaped" headlights with separate bulbs, and you'll find the Fiero has better beam pattern, better light, better everything. A Fiero with good wiring, and new halogen bulbs will be all you need, period. They may already dim in brightly lit cities, but that's because the road is already lit up. The only place LEDs would be better is back country roads where you need to see the woods on either side, and the road for the next km, to keep away from moose. The race for the brightest lights is like when you have a restaurant, and the volume just keeps getting louder and louder, you can't see your lights over the other people brighter lights.

I have Philips High Vis Halogen lights... Better then OE Halogen that used 35W/50W but doesn't pulls amps as "silverstar" level. Philips stopped making all SB since.
They light well on highways etc w/o any "help" from street lights etc. Works as well or better then many "modern vehicles" of any "bulb" type.
Some "modern vehicles" have Tunnel Vision when drive on dark roads to the point you never see many deer etc until you hit them running across a road. A "problem" DOT expected decades ago as even many Cities had dark roads & "old SB" allow you to see a wide area w/o blinding other driver at same time.

ECE "Dipped beam" is similar but more obvious w/ shape edge cutoff. ECE allow for Left Drive & Right Drive so have correct "Dipped Beam" pattern or "Flat" pattern for Trucks etc that have to "Cross the Channel" a lot. Tuck-lite offered all 3 w/ note how to read SAE arrow codes but discontinued or move to another site. USDOT has allow the same cutoff for 10+ years now but limits Power use by Halogens. IOW 9003 & others have same max limits as H6054 & related & many "silverstar" class SB just use one of those bulb w/ maybe minor changes to LB mask.

Note that "Brighter" "Hotter" Light output is often irrelevant to "Bulb" Type. "SilverStar" & related Halogens often had Color Temp same or close to HID or LED @ 4000 to 5000°K. Just both uses less power to make same output.

While most worry about Power Used as in say 50W low 60W high beams w/ Halogens as performance level & setting a limit, FMVSS 108 & more also Lux/lumins/etc to measure actual output & not only from HL. Means "Legal" LED HID or Halogen may not have one a lot brighter then the others when are on a "level playing field." Problem is a lot of that sections of rules are hidden by Paywalls @ SAE & others. Is Why Many are Suing to Force Publish any Paywall doc written into Rules & Laws. So can "read" the Full Text of FMVSS & many Local Rules/Laws like Building Fire & Electrical Codes.

Most comparing "bulbs" even right next to each other on a bench or on a vehicle are often Lying saying X is better. Some don't even know their "lying" but a lot very well know that is complete BS, more so when you see a dim/yellow bulb as the "bad bulb." Many "Bad Bulb" example are under powered & on purpose, "normal" Tungsten not Halogen, OEM Halogen that run lower Watts, etc.

LED units like truck-lite & even illegal one that replace H6054 is only one part of the issue...
Video links only skims the surface of problems of other "upgrade" like putting HID or LED in Any Shell made for Halogen "bulbs."

Many w/ just basic Optic history can quickly see why has big problems w/o even taking apart hardware.
Other can test this w/ some reflective bowl(s) and small light like Mini Maglight w/ lens assembly remove to expose the bulb. That act as a Good & Bad Halogen bulb. First spot you like is the "good" focus point. Any other act like defecting bulb because guts are damage or made wrong or bulb is installed wrong or damage the base/socket in some way.

You have worse problem w/ HID or LED in the focus dept & why Fail optical test then add all other problems stuffing LEDs in small holes then trying to cool them w/ whatever fins, fans, etc. on the back. Big Clive on YT & many others shows thermal damage often happens using LED "upgrades" w/ them. Fans have huge problems just look @ most PC & Laptops but in cars fans suck in road dirt/oil & worse. Or Fan bearing fry because small fan running fast.

If TFS remove the Brake "Upgrade" now is because Likely can't get parts cores to make them. Just last year or bit farther back was still push that crap. Or maybe their Lawyers finally seen it. Still have have other things iffy to illegal... Many items in light/lenses section like "repop" side marking made wrong & let crap in to rot the bulb & socket & doesn't have DOT/SAE codes so is illegal in several ways & even you don't care about that still crap product but many claim "GM Approved" by TFS sold under GM License for many years if not still paying GM Sh-- load of $ now. I'm not digging thru the site to see.

quote Originally posted by 1985 Fiero GT: Yeah there are a lot of rules to look into when making changes, along with how fussy the police in your area are, where I live, you are actually allowed to make necessary modifications on an older vehicle ...

Where I live... you can pull a car out of the woods that's not even yours, cut the roof off, and get it registered and insured all in the same week.

Ask me how I know... (I was 20): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHMkg8o345U

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Where I live... you can pull a car out of the woods that's not even yours, cut the roof off, and get it registered and insured all in the same week.

Move near even many small town or worse in an areas under HOA control will try to stop that fast even in Fl.

Even the County here has Code Enforcement that will ticket or impound a car parked on grass & more. Dead/Parts Car to Tagged Car but rarely driven must be park on Pavement & Covered 24/7 in Unincorporated areas.

quote Originally posted by theogre: Move near even many small town or worse in an areas under HOA control will try to stop that fast even in Fl. Even the County here has Code Enforcement that will ticket or impound a car parked on grass & more. Dead/Parts Car to Tagged Car but rarely driven must be park on Pavement & Covered 24/7 in Unincorporated areas.

Hahah... Ogre... we had that parked in front of my friend's house. I didn't own a house at the time, though I ended up buying a house in that neighborhood. They are million-dollar homes now, but the HOA in that neighborhood has no authority on things like that. The city codes only enforce the condition of the home. Parking on the grass (swale) is acceptable, and as long as the car has a valid plate, and the tires aren't flat, and the grass is mowed... there's nothing in the statutes or regulations.

But you can be sure... I'd never be caught dead with that car in front of my house.

We eventually parked it in the backyard of this guy who was complertely blind. It was stolen from his backyard, and when we asked him what happened, he said... "I don't know, I didn't see anything." Sigh...

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 04-08-2024).]

quote Originally posted by theogre: [QUOTE]Originally posted by jelly2m8: 100% Wrong about my work & 95+% on everything else Because You & others Ignore or Refuse that Most LED "Upgrade" and HID "Upgrades" before them Are Complete BS & keep clinging to the Hype Machine sucking down Koolaid. You can't even read IIHS & others proving many Car Brand Factory Installed "Modern" HL simply Suck but still clinging to Modern is Better.

No ***** , grow the hell up, cars are overall better these days. YOU refuse to understand this and belittle everyone that want's to make their Fiero better than it was 40 years ago.

Someone is amiss that DOT rules from 40 years ago are not compliant by todays standards. I Mean yeah they are cause that's one part of history they have not changed yet, but bringing an 80's vehicle into the market will not pass regulations today.

[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 04-08-2024).]

I noticed an interesting bit of lighting information today.

The first car in the US to use an LED light source, was in the third brake light position of the 1986 Corvette . That was the 3rd production year of the first US made GM mid engine car, that was using a halogen light source in the third brake light position. Many are aware that those halogen light sources made enough heat to melt their housings under normal use, going on only when the brakes were applied. Way back then, changing to LEDs as a light source was solving a problem for GM.

Even IIHS refers to LEDs as a light source, not some evil laser weapon that automotive enthusiasts purchase underground and add to their cars to burn the retinas of other drivers.

Lighting technology for carriages and cars originally used housings with reflectors, lenses and a light source. From the early days of oil lamps to the LEDS of today, headlights still have housings, reflectors, lenses and a light source. Some are better than others, but the best headlight is worthless without proper aiming.

quote Originally posted by 87GT3800SC5SPD: I noticed an interesting bit of lighting information today. The first car in the US to use an LED light source, was in the third brake light position of the 1986 Corvette . That was the 3rd production year of the first US made GM mid engine car, that was using a halogen light source in the third brake light position. Many are aware that those halogen light sources made enough heat to melt their housings under normal use, going on only when the brakes were applied. Way back then, changing to LEDs as a light source was solving a problem for GM. Even IIHS refers to LEDs as a light source, not some evil laser weapon that automotive enthusiasts purchase underground and add to their cars to burn the retinas of other drivers. Lighting technology for carriages and cars originally used housings with reflectors, lenses and a light source. From the early days of oil lamps to the LEDS of today, headlights still have housings, reflectors, lenses and a light source. Some are better than others, but the best headlight is worthless without proper aiming.

Super random, but the 3rd Gen Corvette also used fiber optics to indicate where / when a lightbulb was burnt out at any of the turn signals / headlights, etc. I can't remember... my uncle has a 69 Stingray convertible, and there's a little door / flap that opens on the center console, and it reveals a bunch of little fiber ends that are either lit or not depending on whether the light is burnt out, or you're not using it.

I had a feeling this thread was going to go the way that it did.

LEDs are okay. As long as the police are not super stringent in your area about car mods you will be find. I assure you that most of the US is not the overpoliced hellscape TheOgre paints it to be. No cop is going to waste time writing you a ticket for driving around with White or Amber Halos up and on. As far as the legality goes, it seems to be 50/50 these day. TheOgre is completely and objectively wrong when he casts the "OEM is better argument" across literally every aftermarket upgrade there is. However cheap LEDs are not going to be better than OEMS you need to buy quality DOT tested and approved LED enclosures and bulbs to get even achieve equivalent much less superior performance.

Halos are awesome, some of the higher quality led lights have them built in. As a rule of thumb if the LED headlight does not provide a Beam Pattern, its better to pass on them than risk a bad light

quote Originally posted by theogre: ⚠️ In many places cops can/will stop you for "weird" or illegal lights.

Yep... got pulled over and received a $100 ticket because the LED Halos I installed as auxiliary "driving" lights had a slight bluish tinge to them.

CLICK FOR FULL SIZE

The blue side markers are running lights have always been a favorite for cops to provide tickets for years (since markers and turn are a required color). I have yet to hear and or see anyone get pulled over and issued a ticket for headlights and or tail lights that were not DOT approved.

quote Originally posted by Dukesterpro: TheOgre is completely and objectively wrong when he casts the "OEM is better argument" across literally every aftermarket upgrade there is. However cheap LEDs are not going to be better than OEMS you need to buy quality DOT tested and approved LED enclosures and bulbs to get even achieve equivalent much less superior performance. Halos are awesome, some of the higher quality led lights have them built in. As a rule of thumb if the LED headlight does not provide a Beam Pattern, its better to pass on them than risk a bad light

HL issue is Not "OEM is Better" & Far from that since the 1970's when Aftermarket first made SB Halogen Bulbs available to the public. No Car brand used them except maybe some High $ Models. Not even most or all Cadillac & Lincoln had them until very late 70's because of Cost for the Manufacturers. My First 2 pair set cost $20-$30 @ Wholesale back then way before most stores had them @ Retail including NAPA Pepboys etc. I needed brighter bulbs because lived in "boondocks" Upstate NY to see Deer etc running across roads. I got them because low beam light output didn't blind other drivers but still light the sides of the roads to see more. If you believe inflation sites... $20 in 1970 is = $159.96 today. Most vendors Only got "DOT Legal" bulbs so wasn't a huge problem w/ counterfeit & other crap on Amacon et al now. But could still find crap "upgrades" thru J.C. Wittless & some other mail catalogs & Fail Inspections, Get Stopped, etc for installing &/or using on the street.

1. But You like many compare to whatever ignore Many SB HL cars Did Not have even "cheapest" Halogen Bulbs Including Most Fiero & often Still have same Factory Install Tungsten Bulbs. In case of GM vehicles all have GUIDE brand bulb from GUIDE parts division of GM...
This was 1 of 2 in a 87 Fiero that been wreck & parked for Years until finally scrapped in VA. Likely 6052 bulb.

Many others bought standard Tungsten Not Halogen in the aftermarket Because was Cheap.
Even these "Cheap" bulbs are Not Yellow or Dim & sold many until 2000 & later when "they" stopped packaging/making these for Business Reasons. Phillips stop selling all SB years ago & others limit to 1 to 3 Halogen SB. Osram/Sylvania have/had a "basic" Halogen SB but hardly a store sells them in 15+ years because Make More $ per bulb flogging "SilverStar" & other "performance" bulbs that often doesn't last long.

2. Most "claim" DOT is "crushing us" are just Echoing BS for Decades. Is the same "Fight The Man" crap that been pushed since 1960's just under different name & department to whine about. In Truth FMVSS 108 & reference SAE doc's has been repeatedly updated since 70's allowing Halogen & Square HL then 80's w/ first versions of "Aero" HL, to allow "ECE" cutoff for Halogen Low Beams, & more. Including HB2 Halogen SB & LED sets to Replace H6054 etc that Truck-lite & other Real Companies been selling for 10+ Years now.

3. "Halos are awesome, some of the higher quality led lights have them built in." Funny. Not. Just more proof have no clue.
Some Vehicles have them Legally Only Because their made & tested to meet DOT EU & other rules. Often they are DRL like many other weird shape OEM LED setups & often Turn Off 1 or Both DRL when Turn Lights are Active.
Hella, Truck-lite, & other Real Companies Do Not make this as an "upgrade" for other vehicles because Illegal in most places & can't get DOT ECE & related "Approved" for the product.
All other Halo "upgrade" sold on Amacon etc are Crap, Illegal or Both.

4. "Cop's won't bother you" crowd is only fooling themselves. I know many LEO in many places that laugh @ anyone claim won't bother like many fools on YT TT etc w/ videos saying "Cops hate me" etc for illegal lights. tinted glass, truck owners ignoring GVWR, & worse problems.

One Very Blue College Town in a Very Blue State stop "Cruise Night" by Stopping anyone w/ iffy lights etc & more so w/ out of state tags to "get the word out" Don't Come Here. Some NJ "Beach towns" are doing same thing now. Philly under new Mayor also claim will fight popup "car shows" & ATV "Parades" in the city likely using Live Stop that Impound a vehicle for same problems that only get a Ticket in other places. Already Impounded Hundreds of ATV etc.

So @ best is more like Gambling w/ every LEO might see on every trip trying not to loose... Like Patrick...

quote Originally posted by theogre: So @ best is more like Gambling w/ every LEO might see on every trip trying not to loose... Like Patrick...

I had those lights on my Subie for four years before some sawed-off young runt newbie highway patrolman pulled me over. (Don't they have minimum height requirements any longer?) The part of the story I don't think I've ever mentioned before, is that I challenged the ticket in court. Without getting into what he said/I said in court... the judge lowered the fine to ten bucks. However, it was a given that I also had to replace the Halo LEDs with ones that were more yellowish. I preferred the bluish lights... but I drive right by the highway patrol station every week during hockey season, so I'm not willing to risk being sighted by that same power-tripping short-ass officer again.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I had those lights on my Subie for four years before some sawed-off young runt newbie highway patrolman pulled me over. (Don't they have minimum height requirements any longer?) The part of the story I don't think I've ever mentioned before, is that I challenged the ticket in court. Without getting into what he said/I said in court... the judge lowered the fine to ten bucks. However, it was a given that I also had to replace the Halo LEDs with ones that were more yellowish. I preferred the bluish lights... but I drive right by the highway patrol station every week during hockey season, so I'm not willing to risk being sighted by that same power-tripping short-ass officer again.

No matter how you count the cost & time, you lost the Bet that day. Then you went to Count... while that judge Reduce the Fine, the Time doing so count as Negative to you even if "burn" vacation or other time from work. Plus more money to get another light set to meet the Orders.

Is also a another reason Why many cops stop out of state tags... Even if the Fine is High, often still Cheaper then fighting it. Worse, If you lose @ court too... Judges can add more Fines to Jail time depending on case & other things. So most Mail the Fine. Others Ignore them but then could have a Warrant that can cross state lines or just wait years if needed for you to drive there w/ Toll & other cameras tracking tag numbers now.

quote Originally posted by theogre: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Patrick: I had those lights on my Subie for four years before some sawed-off young runt newbie highway patrolman pulled me over. (Don't they have minimum height requirements any longer?) The part of the story I don't think I've ever mentioned before, is that I challenged the ticket in court. Without getting into what he said/I said in court... the judge lowered the fine to ten bucks. However, it was a given that I also had to replace the Halo LEDs with ones that were more yellowish. I preferred the bluish lights... but I drive right by the highway patrol station every week during hockey season, so I'm not willing to risk being sighted by that same power-tripping short-ass officer again.

No matter how you count the cost & time, you lost the Bet that day. Then you went to Count... while that judge Reduce the Fine, the Time doing so count as Negative to you even if "burn" vacation or other time from work. Plus more money to get another light set to meet the Orders.

Is also a another reason Why many cops stop out of state tags... Even if the Fine is High, often still Cheaper then fighting it. Worse, If you lose @ court too... Judges can add more Fines to Jail time depending on case & other things. So most Mail the Fine. Others Ignore them but then could have a Warrant that can cross state lines or just wait years if needed for you to drive there w/ Toll & other cameras tracking tag numbers now.[/QUOTE]


To be clear, you cannot go to jail for failing to pay a fine (in the U.S.). Our Constitutional law does not permit "debtors prison." You could lose your license and then if caught driving without a license, or failing to go to court when summoned, can lead to jail time.

quote Originally posted by theogre: No matter how you count the cost & time, you lost the Bet that day. Then you went to Count... while that judge Reduce the Fine, the Time doing so count as Negative to you even if "burn" vacation or other time from work. Plus more money to get another light set to meet the Orders.

Not everything in life is about money. I didn't feel the lights I had installed warranted being pulled over, made to wait half an hour on the side of the road while the officer shuffled papers in his car, and given a $100 fine. An order/requirement to remove/replace the lights would've been sufficient, which I also did receive (which then entailed me having to go to a local RCMP detachment within two weeks to prove the lights had been decommissioned). I could have easily paid the fine and forgotten about it, but I wanted to express my displeasure in court. I looked upon the experience as a adventure. I'm retired, so finding the time to go to court was a non-issue.

I could tell the judge was entirely sympathetic with my indignation. I probably could've pushed it a bit further and had the entire fine thrown out. However, as mentioned earlier, every week I drive right past the highway patrol detachment where the officer who pulled me over is stationed. I didn't wish to make him look any worse in court than I already did, and then possibly have him trying to be vindictive. The lights only cost $10, so that cost was insignificant. It was a nuisance having to swap them out though, especially when I preferred the ones being removed.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-10-2024).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: To be clear, you cannot go to jail for failing to pay a fine (in the U.S.). Our Constitutional law does not permit "debtors prison." You could lose your license and then if caught driving without a license, or failing to go to court when summoned, can lead to jail time.

Suggest you Read a Ticket before you sign them. Every ticket I've seen in several States says, paraphrased, "Pay By X Date Or Appear in Count on Y Day @ Z Time." Ignoring a Ticket = Fail to Appear = Judge can issue a Warrant because most Tickets are Criminal Cases.

The Fine on the Ticket Means Nothing to the Judge that can void it, raise or deduce the amount, add jail time or other things.

Nearly all "Photo" tickets from Red Light & Toll Cameras etc have about same wording or if Ignored = Instant Suspension in many States because most of these are Civil Cases. Even Then Judges can issue Warrants for people w/ a lot of these Forcing you to Appear.

Even More Confusing... When crossing a Bridge or use a Tunnel, Cops may not be Local but Port Authority etc Cops that have extra problems.
Example: Driving I95 to NY using I295 & DE Twin Bridge have to deal w/ DRBA Cops & even when Stop you in "DE..." Nope. That road section isn't part of DE & DRBA Tickets have to Fight in NJ Courts.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-11-2024).]

quote Originally posted by theogre: Suggest you Read a Ticket before you sign them. Every ticket I've seen in several States says, paraphrased, "Pay By X Date Or Appear in Count on Y Day @ Z Time." Ignoring a Ticket = Fail to Appear = Judge can issue a Warrant because most Tickets are Criminal Cases. The Fine on the Ticket Means Nothing to the Judge that can void it, raise or deduce the amount, add jail time or other things. Nearly all "Photo" tickets from Red Light & Toll Cameras etc have about same wording or if Ignored = Instant Suspension in many States because most of these are Civil Cases. Even Then Judges can issue Warrants for people w/ a lot of these Forcing you to Appear. Even More Confusing... When crossing a Bridge or use a Tunnel, Cops may not be Local but Port Authority etc Cops that have extra problems. Example: Driving I95 to NY using I295 & DE Twin Bridge have to deal w/ DRBA Cops & even when Stop you in "DE..." Nope. That road section isn't part of DE & DRBA Tickets have to Fight in NJ Courts.

Ogre, to clarify, you should re-read what I said. The thing is... you cannot be jailed for failing to pay a fine... as I said. I just finished a law degree, so I might as well brag about it. What you CAN be jailed for, is violating a court order, or some other action ... which may result from failing to pay a fine. But failure to pay a fine will NOT result in you going to jail.

In the U.S. Supreme Court ruling of Bearden v. Georgia, 461 U.S. 660 (1983), SCOTUS affirmed that following a COURT ORDER to pay a fine (note, not a police officer giving you a ticket), that you can only go to jail if you're clearly able to pay the fine, and choose not to. Which is remedied as soon as you pay it. If you lack the financial means to do so, you cannot be put in jail. U.S. Constitution affirms no debtor's prison through the 14th amendment equal protection clause (as further affirmed by Federal law passed in 1833).

... of course, I'm only talking U.S. law.

LOL I wondered how a thread about halo headlights could have so many posts so quickly.... I was not disappointed.

quote Originally posted by css9450: LOL I wondered how a thread about halo headlights could have so many posts so quickly.... I was not disappointed.

Yeah and this thread is a couple weeks old and the OP is no where to be found. Everyone who replied is talking to themselves.

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 04-12-2024).]

quote Originally posted by IMSA GT: Everyone who replied is talking to themselves.

I can't say I agree with that. The OP may be a no show after their initial post (which sure, is disappointing), but nevertheless it's pretty obvious that there's still a relatively interesting discussion taking place.