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Installing the FAST EZ-EFI 2.0 Multi-Port Retro Kit in a 1987 Pontiac Fiero V6 by 82-T/A [At Work]
Started on: 02-17-2023 01:43 PM
Replies: 76 (1876 views)
Last post by: armos on 03-21-2023 07:17 PM
82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post02-17-2023 01:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hello Fiero friends... I expect this thread to be contentious, like the Archie V8 versus the other guy (?), or whether or not to use the Crane Cams H262 w/ 1.6:1 roller rockers, or the H272 w/ 1.52:1 roller rockers... or even as contentious and violent as threads get when discussing whether or not to take Social Security early at 62, or wait until 67 (you know how those conversations go!)

This thread will be to discuss my entire process for planning (lack there of), and installation of the FAST EZ-EFI 2.0 Multi-Port Retrofit Kit into my 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE/V6. In its current condition, the Fiero's engine has been rebuilt into a 3.1 or 3.2. Essentially, a 2.8 with 3.1 crank and rods, and a .040 overbore set of pistons. I'll be installing the H272 camshaft (Crane, Comp? I can't remember) along with 1.52:1 roller rockers, basic port-matching and a little bit of hogging in the intake, with the Darrel Morse enlarged throttle body. I also have the hogged exhaust manifolds, and 17# Accel Injectors. This is the kit I will be installing (the 30404 kit):




.
FIRST, I want to explain WHY I've decided to go down this path. I want an EZ button. I don't mind paying whatever the cost to get something that is going to WORK. The primary reasons for doing this is:

- WIRING: I no longer want to have to deal with or fiddle with 35+ year old wiring. I want a completely new engine wiring harness. COMPLETELY new. I don't want to deal with old sensors, fiddling with fusible links, or outdated technology.

- RELIABILITY: I want something that is just going to WORK. When I'm done with the car, I want to be able to get in it, and drive it. I don't want nonsense. I don't want to worry about taking it for a long drive. I want something that will JUST WORK.

- COMPATIBILITY: I want something that is going to allow me to use the majority of my existing components, and sensors (even though I will replace them with new)

- TUNING: More important than anything else... I am tired of trying to figure out what options to go with. MegaSquirt, 7730 or whatever, EPROM reflashes, whatever. It's still OLD technology. I don't know about the megasquirt, but the other systems still communicate at what, 180 baud? They require an old DOS laptop, fiddling with numbers, trying to dial it in. I don't want that, I really, really don't want that. I want something which I can simply put on, and it'll figure it out for me.


What I've said before will likely elicit some response... many against, but perhaps also by people who want the same thing as I do. Some thoughts... I made a post several years ago which you can find here. I originally looked at getting the EZ-EFI 1 system, and ultimately decided against it. There was some positive and negative responses... not negative as in mean, but pro/con discussions. There's a lot of information here, and a lot of feedback: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/131288.html


I've done a lot of research over the past couple of years on this, and re-kindled my desire over the past few days to solve this. I've found many reviews, both from people who were VERY happy, and those who were VERY upset. Generally I think people who have problems and are upset are more likely to speak out, where as with people where it "simply works" are less likely to comment. But here's what I more or less gathered in a few simple points:


  • If you have a poorly running engine, chances are, your engine is going to run poorly with this system also.
  • This system works FANTASTIC on V8 engines like GM's TPI motor, or other motors where you're converting to fuel injection, or upgrading the existing fuel injection.
  • This system works really well on stock, or slightly modified motors with good vacuum, and no electrical interference.



For people like us, who have a V6, the system is ABSOLUTELY designed to work with 4 cyls, 6 cyls, and 8 cyls (there's even a setting), but the majority of people who use it have V8s because, "...why would anyone want to upgrade a V6?"

There are some very happy customers who have purchased this system, and adopted them to very "non-standard" vehicles, such as in this example on a Datsun 280Z:




.

Break, first thing I need to do is get my car back to the house (which I will be doing in March), but I'm collecting parts right now for this job. I'll post everything here, so I can detail what I've done, and because it might help others (not just Fiero owners) who are looking to install on a GM-style V6.


Note, this is the kit I purchased: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fst-30404-kit - Total w/ Shipping was $1,578.05
... and here is the generic user manual for the complete kit: https://www.jegs.com/Instal.../244/244-ezefi20.pdf

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Report this Post02-17-2023 05:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jdvSend a Private Message to jdvEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
zkhennings did some nice wiring illustrations in his thread that might help with your install.
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Report this Post02-17-2023 09:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Very interesting. I will be following.
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Report this Post02-18-2023 12:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Very cool!
I'll just add that I had the Crane H272 in my 3.4. I really liked it. (Can you still even find those?!)
I used a Cloyes timing set with the cam gear that could be installed advanced, "straight up", or retarded. I installed it "retarded" to help the top end, since the 3.4 already had a bunch of torque, and I wanted something that would wind.
You will need to have your heads machined to allow for valve spring clearance, or maybe come up with different suitable springs. Stock springs will coil bind with that cam.
I would also suggest the "dawg" intake mod, or similar, on your upper intake, to eliminate the restriction in the neck.
That thing oughta scream.
Watching...

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-18-2023).]

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Report this Post02-18-2023 12:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nice!

Glad to see another build using the FAST system. Some folks on here have done some incredible stuff with pushing the limits of various stock GM or the more DIY aftermarket systems (though MegaSquirt has come a long way to a more 'finished product' situation). The points you lay out are great reasons to switch things up, especially on the wiring and reliability stuff.

Subscribed!
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Report this Post02-18-2023 11:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MarkSSend a Private Message to MarkSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

Very cool!

I'll just add that I had the Crane H272 in my 3.4. I really liked it. (Can you still even find those?!)


I would also suggest the "dawg" intake mod, or similar, on your upper intake, to eliminate the restriction in the neck.




Crower still lists a cam I was looking at for my V6: https://crower.com/camshaft...et-camshaft-142.html
Lead time is out there but I think if you order direct & keep on top of them, they'll come through. I scored a beautiful set of USA made Sportsman rods for my Pontiac 428 doing just that. Also, the DAWG mod was on my list. Not sure he does these anymore, but the mod is pretty well documented.
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Report this Post02-18-2023 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
FWIW, Megasquirt is really easy now, it self tunes also. I bought my Microsquirt for $400 with an 8ft loom. You don’t need to build your own PCBs anymore unless you want to. More DIY than what you got, which is negative in terms of more effort required, but you can tune on the fly, and all you need is the USB to serial dongle computer wise. It is also very GM compatible. Software is free.

I think you will be happy with your choice though.

Another good alternative that is getting bigger and bigger is the Link ECUs, and they offer all their own sensors so you don’t have to worry about getting everything calibrated and working properly, just outfit your engine with their sensors and get tuning.

Definitely do some intake mods, if you’ve ported your exhaust manifolds, then the intake is probably the biggest restriction.
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Report this Post02-20-2023 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
[B]
I want something which I can simply put on, and it'll figure it out for me.



Your reward will be proportional to the effort you put into it.
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82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post02-21-2023 12:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thank you everyone who's responded, I really appreciate it! The whole kit comes tomorrow, so I'm very excited. I'm going to cover everything in this thread as I get through it, but I will also be going into a lot of detail on my own website. There's no ads or anything, so I don't make money on that site, it's just something where I organize everything so people with interest in some of the same cars I've had, can follow similar projects. http://www.PontiacPerformance.net (go to Current Cars, and 87 Fiero). I might even make it a separate page on the tech articles section. You'll have to excuse me, I wrote it in notepad, originally back in like 2003, so it's massively outdated looking. I'll probably reskin the entire website at some point, but don't want to focus on that.

The VERY FIRST THING that I'll need to resolve / create a solution for, is the timing. For those who do not know, FAST is now owned by a much larger group that also owns CompCams, Edelbrock, TCI, Russell, etc. When you call their tech support, you are generally linked to one of a handful of people (they respond better by e-mail). These people provide tech support in other areas, and while really intelligent and know their stuff, they often don't get a lot of questions on FAST. When I asked the question briefly before I bought it, the guy I talked to said it does not control timing, but obviously, the EZ-EFI 2.0 does in fact control timing (that's one of the benefits). So, their tech support is good but like with anything, I almost think I need to direct them towards the answer I'm looking for.

There are TWO areas with installing this that I find to be challenging:

1 - Making use of your stock gauges... how? Can these be powered by the existing feeds from the VSS and tach filter? Are there leads from the EZ-EFI?
2 - Getting the timing to work... I've heard a lot of different things, so I'll create a separate response to this when I've compiled all the information I have.


 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

Very cool!
I'll just add that I had the Crane H272 in my 3.4. I really liked it. (Can you still even find those?!)
I used a Cloyes timing set with the cam gear that could be installed advanced, "straight up", or retarded. I installed it "retarded" to help the top end, since the 3.4 already had a bunch of torque, and I wanted something that would wind.
You will need to have your heads machined to allow for valve spring clearance, or maybe come up with different suitable springs. Stock springs will coil bind with that cam.
I would also suggest the "dawg" intake mod, or similar, on your upper intake, to eliminate the restriction in the neck.
That thing oughta scream.
Watching...


Thanks Raydar! To be honest, I don't know... I purchased the H272 over 10 years ago, and before I put it in storage, I slathered it with gear grease so it wouldn't rust. It's in the original box, so I'll have to see. I also have a Cloyes timing set on my engine now, but I assume it's installed to default specifications. What is the DAWG intake mod? Thanks!!!


 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

FWIW, Megasquirt is really easy now, it self tunes also. I bought my Microsquirt for $400 with an 8ft loom. You don’t need to build your own PCBs anymore unless you want to. More DIY than what you got, which is negative in terms of more effort required, but you can tune on the fly, and all you need is the USB to serial dongle computer wise. It is also very GM compatible. Software is free.

I think you will be happy with your choice though.

Another good alternative that is getting bigger and bigger is the Link ECUs, and they offer all their own sensors so you don’t have to worry about getting everything calibrated and working properly, just outfit your engine with their sensors and get tuning.

Definitely do some intake mods, if you’ve ported your exhaust manifolds, then the intake is probably the biggest restriction.


A lot of people told me to do Megasquirt. I wanted to, I seriously considered it. It wasn't cost, it just seemed like there would be a LOT of effort, and tuning, and configuration. I didn't want to hack together parts. I wanted an entirely new engine harness, which I effectively get with this... and it uses all the existing GM connectors, which is fantastic. Effectively, I can make it look 99% stock, which was part of my goal, while running reliably.

As for intake, when the car was still running and before I put it in storage, I had port-matched the heads to the lower intake manifold, and then port-matched those to the "runners" (or whatever we call the mid-section) and port-matched that to the intake plenum. I also had the throttle body bored out when Darrel Morse was doing it (to 52mm? I can't remember). he also bored out the intake neck to the same diameter, but of course, I realize it's still restricted at the neck itself where it pinches into the larger plenum. I did some porting / polishing... at least as much as I allowed myself to.

I also have the exhaust manifolds hogged out and reinforced. I actually bought them from Ed Parks back in the day. I have the ceramic-coated Y-Pipe, and then the Ocelot exhaust. I have a new catalytic converter which I'll also install, but I may decide to just go with a higher-flowing unit... depending on. I want the increased sound, but I don't want popping.

I'm not really expecting a race-car, haha... but goal for me is high 14s in the quarter on a good day. I'm in the process of doing a 5-Speed swap to it... or at least I was before putting it away. I have a ~30k mile original Getrag from an 87, and I've already rebuilt and installed the pedal assembly, new clutch master cyl, shifter assembly, etc. So we'll see.


 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Your reward will be proportional to the effort you put into it.


Hah, yes... I just don't want old stuff in the car. I want the system to run as modern as possible, and ideally, I'd like to even get rid of the EGR and cold-start injector if I can.
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Report this Post02-21-2023 01:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I feel for the level of mods that most people on this forum do that the '7730 conversion is enough to handle what you throw at it. Tuner Pro is not difficult to learn. I tune it myself because professional tuners don't touch ODB1 anymore.

I'm at the point now where I expect my 3.4->3.5 build to rev to ~7500 rpm and NOW I will need to go to an aftermarket engine controller...but that's me and La Fiera... We actually race our cars on tracks.
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Report this Post02-21-2023 02:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
... We actually race our cars on tracks.




I know text doesn't carry tone very well, if your post didn't mean to come off as condescending as the last part of it made it sound, I apologize. Just because someone doesn't want to use what others have used, and may never need the full capability of what they're installing, is no reason for anyone to get on their soapbox about it. Just appreciate what they guy is trying to do and be supportive.

And if you want to define "race cars on tracks", there's plenty of people here that have had their car on the quarter mile track.

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 02-21-2023).]

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Report this Post02-21-2023 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

A lot of people told me to do Megasquirt. I wanted to, I seriously considered it. It wasn't cost, it just seemed like there would be a LOT of effort, and tuning, and configuration. I didn't want to hack together parts. I wanted an entirely new engine harness, which I effectively get with this... and it uses all the existing GM connectors, which is fantastic. Effectively, I can make it look 99% stock, which was part of my goal, while running reliably.



I am using all brand new GM connectors with my Microsquirt harness, and new pins in the C500 and C203 connector. My entire engine harness will be 100% brand new besides the plastic housings for C203 and C500 connectors. Like I said, what you are going for is great also, and probably less work, but you can accomplish the same end goal with much less money but a little more effort with MS, and the tuning software is excellent. Your goal was to make it simple and I think you will accomplish that.
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Report this Post02-21-2023 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

Making use of your stock gauges... how? Can these be powered by the existing feeds from the VSS and tach filter? Are there leads from the EZ-EFI?

I purchased the H272 over 10 years ago, and before I put it in storage, I slathered it with gear grease so it wouldn't rust. It's in the original box, so I'll have to see. I also have a Cloyes timing set on my engine now, but I assume it's installed to default specifications. What is the DAWG intake mod? Thanks!!!

Hah, yes... I just don't want old stuff in the car. I want the system to run as modern as possible, and ideally, I'd like to even get rid of the EGR and cold-start injector if I can.


I can't speak to the EZ-EFI, but since the existing setup routes the VSS signal to the speedo, first, and then to the ECM, I don't see why it wouldn't work.
The tach just runs off of pulses. It should work, too. The only confusion might be if you convert to coil packs, but they generally still have a tach feed.

Good show on the 272. I think you'll like it, especially through an Ocelot. (Since the 3.1 is a bit smaller than the 3.4, the 272 will have even more of a "thump" than it did in my 3.4.)

The "dawg" mod? Is well documented here. Basically it removes the floor of the intake neck between the EGR fitting and the plenum, and replaces it with a semi-round section of pipe. Increases the cross-section by a huge amount.
It's probably not necessary for a nearly stock engine. Probably beneficial for a cammed 3.1. Absolutely required for a 3.4.

EGR and cold start injector? Easy. I did away with my cold start injector on my 3.4, and didn't even do anything else. Of course it tended to run a bit on the rich side, since I had 19# injectors, but it worked well.
Just block off the EGR and don't add the spark advance and lean fueling to the tune, since you're starting from square one.
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Report this Post02-21-2023 05:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
@Trinten,
The quarter mile is a useless race in my opinion. Perhaps you should do some searching before you bring the attitude...




Text does not carry tone.
I guess if you followed my and La Fiera's builds you'd understand what I was talking about with regards to our engines and mods.

A 7730 conversion is probably less complicated then the EZ 2.0 or Megasquirt and keeps your original sensors and dash. It can handle boost. It basically costs $30 and a de-pinning tool. It does everything the stock ECM does, and more (DIS, knock sensor, etc...)...and better. The '7730 is tunable with free software as well (Tuner Pro).

From what I've seen of the EZ, it's more of a "hey - if you have a carb'd vehicle and want fuel injection here's a kit..." than 'if you already have fuel injection this will be substantially better!' I think one video I saw of someone who already had fuel injection on a 600 hp car gained maybe 6hp. So the juice is not worth the squeeze.

I believe there is a code for the '7730 that does autotuning as well when you supply it with a heated O2 sensor (nA1$T or something like that) which I intend to try out before resorting to a Megasquirt....

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 02-21-2023).]

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Report this Post02-21-2023 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm sorry you felt like I brought attitude. I'm sorry to see that you can't see (or won't acknowledge) where I thought you were bringing attitude. I am glad to see that your opinion on quarter mile racing matches my opinion on the kind of racing you do. I have followed La Fiera's build. He and I have hung out on a number of occasions, and at times he tells me what he's up to before he posts it.

Apologies to the OP for causing a disruption in your thread! I won't engage Lou anymore on this topic.
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Report this Post02-21-2023 08:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

I can't speak to the EZ-EFI, but since the existing setup routes the VSS signal to the speedo, first, and then to the ECM, I don't see why it wouldn't work.
The tach just runs off of pulses. It should work, too. The only confusion might be if you convert to coil packs, but they generally still have a tach feed.

Good show on the 272. I think you'll like it, especially through an Ocelot. (Since the 3.1 is a bit smaller than the 3.4, the 272 will have even more of a "thump" than it did in my 3.4.)

The "dawg" mod? Is well documented here. Basically it removes the floor of the intake neck between the EGR fitting and the plenum, and replaces it with a semi-round section of pipe. Increases the cross-section by a huge amount.
It's probably not necessary for a nearly stock engine. Probably beneficial for a cammed 3.1. Absolutely required for a 3.4.

EGR and cold start injector? Easy. I did away with my cold start injector on my 3.4, and didn't even do anything else. Of course it tended to run a bit on the rich side, since I had 19# injectors, but it worked well. Just block off the EGR and don't add the spark advance and lean fueling to the tune, since you're starting from square one.



I realized after what the DAWG mod is... I kind of suspected that's what we were all talking about, I just never remember it being called that. Yeah, I'm definitely going to have to do that.

My 3.1 is every so slightly hotter than what a stock 3.1 would be. I have .040 overbore pistons, and also decked the heads and intake so the compression is a little higher as well. I believe I'm getting around 9.2:1 compression (if I remember correctly). I don't suppose that makes too much of a difference, but I'm using 17# Accel (pintle-style) injectors. So I think the 17# are probably decent for what I'm doing, especially if I get rid of EGR and cold start injector.

I'm going to have to ask you about the springs when the time comes for that. Also, a problem I have is that I can't / shouldn't even start that engine with the EZ-EFI since if I remember correctly, to properly break in the cam I'll need to bring it to 2,000 rpms for a couple of minutes (it's been a long time since I looked at how all of that works.


 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

@Trinten,
The quarter mile is a useless race in my opinion. Perhaps you should do some searching before you bring the attitude...

Text does not carry tone.
I guess if you followed my and La Fiera's builds you'd understand what I was talking about with regards to our engines and mods.

A 7730 conversion is probably less complicated then the EZ 2.0 or Megasquirt and keeps your original sensors and dash. It can handle boost. It basically costs $30 and a de-pinning tool. It does everything the stock ECM does, and more (DIS, knock sensor, etc...)...and better. The '7730 is tunable with free software as well (Tuner Pro).

From what I've seen of the EZ, it's more of a "hey - if you have a carb'd vehicle and want fuel injection here's a kit..." than 'if you already have fuel injection this will be substantially better!' I think one video I saw of someone who already had fuel injection on a 600 hp car gained maybe 6hp. So the juice is not worth the squeeze.

I believe there is a code for the '7730 that does autotuning as well when you supply it with a heated O2 sensor (nA1$T or something like that) which I intend to try out before resorting to a Megasquirt....




Lou, I remember that video. I appreciate the input, but with me, I was not interested in having to go through all of that work with the Megasquirt. Over the years, I would go back to the site and kept coming away with... ugh... I'm going to have to tune it, and then I also have to build a wiring harness. I think you may be misunderstanding some of the EZ-EFI 2.0. They do have a lot of kits that simply allow you to upgrade an existing carbureted V8. This system works really well... and, should this not work out how I want it, I've got a 1969 Oldsmobile 455 Big Block (punched out to a 468) that I can put it on.




The specific version of the kit that I got though, is intentionally designed to be used to upgrade GM cars that already have multi-port fuel injection systems, like a TPI, LT1, or something like that. The harness is built by default to support General Motors sensors, and while it does come with all new sensors, they are all GM sensors and use the exact same connectors as the Pontiac Fiero has for its MPFI system. Based on a little more reading too, it does not replace my guages. I do get a hand-held for additional tuning changes and other features, but my existing gauges will continue to work.

When I go through my Fiero next month, I will be removing the entire factory harness and will not be cutting anything. I have another 87 Fiero that I bought at auction many years ago (it was a wreck, and didn't have a title). I used that car to pull most of the 5-Speed parts off of for when I did the 5-Speed conversion on my car. I saved all the harnesses from that car, so any engine compartment wire splicing I need to do, I'll be using that. For the most part though, everything in the engine bay will be completely new. I'm going to get rid of the fusible links (as I said, I'll simply remove them uncut), and put all new wiring.

Generally, with most of the reviews I've seen, the biggest benefit is an engine that runs more smoothly throughout the entire powerband, optimizing the performance throughout. And that's what I'm looking for.


 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Apologies to the OP for causing a disruption in your thread! I won't engage Lou anymore on this topic.



No problem, I appreciate it. I'm excited to see how this works out.
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quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Generally, with most of the reviews I've seen, the biggest benefit is an engine that runs more smoothly throughout the entire powerband, optimizing the performance throughout. And that's what I'm looking for.


I think that running smoothly isn't so much about the ECU; it's about the tune that in it.

I quickly looked through the instruction manual for this ECU. The second half of the manual documents the different tuning settings that the user has to adjust.

The only part that self-tunes (kind of like other computers) is that the fuel table self-adjusts to hit the AFR targets... targets which are determined by the user.
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Report this Post02-22-2023 07:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


I think that running smoothly isn't so much about the ECU; it's about the tune that in it.

I quickly looked through the instruction manual for this ECU. The second half of the manual documents the different tuning settings that the user has to adjust.

The only part that self-tunes (kind of like other computers) is that the fuel table self-adjusts to hit the AFR targets... targets which are determined by the user.



Are you talking about the EZ-EFI 2.0? Because that is not at all what it does. You set the displacement, number of cyls, the type of timing controller (internal, or external), and that's literally all that's required. It has some basic fuel maps which are determined by cyls/displacement and then it self-learns and builds it's own fuel tables off of that. You can adjust the additional settings if you want, but it's unnecessary unless you want something specific.

I'm not sure why you guys are so adamant about me buying a Megasquirt. I'm happy to buy one and throw it on the shelf if that'll pacify the "I could have saved $500 bucks" argument? The money isn't important to me, reliability and simplicity is. My time is extremely valuable. I spent the first half of my adult life as a programmer, and don't want to have to sit there with a laptop fiddling with the settings of some old-ass GM controller... going back and forth, up and down the street, trying to dial in my fuel maps.

A truly intuitive system should not require that ... that's old technology. The EZ-EFI system continuously learns, essentially using machine learning to continually build those fuel tables, not a decision-tree algorithm. That's what I want.
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Report this Post02-22-2023 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Are you talking about the EZ-EFI 2.0? Because that is not at all what it does. You set the displacement, number of cyls, the type of timing controller (internal, or external), and that's literally all that's required. It has some basic fuel maps which are determined by cyls/displacement and then it self-learns and builds it's own fuel tables off of that. You can adjust the additional settings if you want, but it's unnecessary unless you want something specific.

I'm not sure why you guys are so adamant about me buying a Megasquirt. I'm happy to buy one and throw it on the shelf if that'll pacify the "I could have saved $500 bucks" argument? The money isn't important to me, reliability and simplicity is. My time is extremely valuable. I spent the first half of my adult life as a programmer, and don't want to have to sit there with a laptop fiddling with the settings of some old-ass GM controller... going back and forth, up and down the street, trying to dial in my fuel maps.

A truly intuitive system should not require that ... that's old technology. The EZ-EFI system continuously learns, essentially using machine learning to continually build those fuel tables, not a decision-tree algorithm. That's what I want.


You are free to do whatever you want but I can sense you just want A.I. to tune your car, we can see that clearly and I personally respect that. There are lots of tuning strategies that gets programmed by a good tuner that A.I. can't duplicate because A.I. is not human and is missing that human touch. Things you learn over experience and feeling like engine sound note at a specific RPM with specific parameters, things a computer even with the best programming can't sense. Remember, these "intelligent" systems are as intelligent as their programmers, lazy people who rely on math to do everything for them and don't even want to take the time to learn about a simple air pump because they themselves think they know better because the graduated from MIT. Tuning is not like you can program a computer to play chess. Proof is in the pudding, lets see what your A.I. can do!

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Report this Post02-23-2023 08:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

You are free to do whatever you want but I can sense you just want A.I. to tune your car, we can see that clearly and I personally respect that. There are lots of tuning strategies that gets programmed by a good tuner that A.I. can't duplicate because A.I. is not human and is missing that human touch. Things you learn over experience and feeling like engine sound note at a specific RPM with specific parameters, things a computer even with the best programming can't sense. Remember, these "intelligent" systems are as intelligent as their programmers, lazy people who rely on math to do everything for them and don't even want to take the time to learn about a simple air pump because they themselves think they know better because the graduated from MIT. Tuning is not like you can program a computer to play chess. Proof is in the pudding, lets see what your A.I. can do!


Hahah... perhaps. Incidentally, that's what I do for a living. I literally run a team of AI researchers. As the chief scientist of the company I work for says, "AI cannot reason," which is what I think you mean. But I think it's important to understand what AI can and cannot do well. Number crunching, and normalization is something that AI actually does really, really well. To be honest though, the EZ-EFI 2.0 isn't new. It's been around for almost a decade if I'm not mistaken. I think it came out in 2013, and there have been a couple of updates. It uses rudimentary machine learning, so not exactly the sophistication of a GAN or an NLP... but to be fair, the type of processing that's required in a fuel injection system is extremely simple.

If we're using AI terms... both systems use some form of machine learning logic. The difference is whether or not the learning model is done through supervised (what you're doing) or unsupervised (what I'm doing) learning. The inputs are the same... TPS, MAP, IAC, O2, etc. You go through a lot of effort to "dial in" these specifics (supervised learning)... but you're also merely using the input from these sensors to make a decision. This is something that machine learning can easily do on it's own.

Truth be told, I'd be willing to bet that all of these systems that are out there are so old that they're using very basic math algorithms. If someone put in even the slightest bit of effort into redesigning one of these... that "issue" would be solved tomorrow. But there aren't a lot of car guys who are also mathematicians, who are also computer programmers, who are also AI engineers. Never the less, it's not a hard problem... and there's no reason to go through the effort of repeatedly dynoing and "dialing in" a car's computer, when it simply should be able to optimize the efficiency on its own through basic math.

My kit comes in the mail today... so I'll post pictures when I get it. But I still need to tow my Fiero from the storage unit first.


BIG question I have though... if I'm going to be installing a new cam in my engine... I want to run it with the existing computer that's in there, right? I need to be able to run the car at 2,000 RPMs from the get-go (or whatever the break-in procedure is for a flat-tappet cam). It's been like a decade since I've really turned a wrench, so I've forgotten almost everything. If I put the FAST system on immediately, I'm concerned I may wipe out my cam.


EDIT: You encouraged me to reach out to Edelbrock and Holley to see if I can get some of the guys on my team to work with either of them on a new, more advanced system. I just asked to be able to buy the unit at cost when it comes out. I'll let you know what comes of it.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 02-23-2023).]

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lou_dias
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Report this Post02-23-2023 12:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Without dyno # feedback, you can say you want 13.5 A/F ratio and have it auto tune but that doesn't mean your making the most power since you have to adjust your timing as well. When you adjust your timing, your a/f ratio adjusts as well. You don't know which direction to go in until you have dyno #'s.
It's a feedback loop that doesn't yet exist because no ECM is aware of actual power output.
If you just want to cruise, it's overkill, but just fine.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 02-23-2023).]

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Report this Post02-23-2023 02:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Without dyno # feedback, you can say you want 13.5 A/F ratio and have it auto tune but that doesn't mean your making the most power since you have to adjust your timing as well. When you adjust your timing, your a/f ratio adjusts as well. You don't know which direction to go in until you have dyno #'s.
It's a feedback loop that doesn't yet exist because no ECM is aware of actual power output.
If you just want to cruise, it's overkill, but just fine.




You know your stuff Lou, I've been talking with their engineers and they've specifically stated that the idea has merit, but would require an ability to identify "changes" in performance (why a dyno has value). We would need to measure that in some way, which could be done realistically with something that measures improvement or increase in G-forces and momentum to augment this. But it is true what you're saying, there is a ~2-4% variance on getting more power out of it above and beyond optimizing fuel ratios.

Goal for me with this was to have a solid-running / driveable car. But now I'm interested in seeing where I can make this go with their engineering guys. They're interested, so the conversation has started.
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Report this Post02-23-2023 08:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for claude dalpeSend a Private Message to claude dalpeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi, 82-T/A [At Work]

I was one of the first to successfully complete a 3.5 LX9 swap with a bug free 7730 ECM about 13 years ago, But it took me at least 1 1/2 years to successfully (I was at the 30th of the fiero in Indianapolis with this engine)

I worked with the things Moates was selling at the time (emulator and chip burner) You burn a chip and you will try it on the road (very long process).

Anyway Moates is closed now

All those at the time that I contacted for this swap to have a tune already done for my 3.5 LX9 they had no final one and all wanted me to send them scan data to correct the tune so i decided to do it myself

In short, all this to tell you that it is very long and requires mechanical knowledge that I have (mechanic) to do engine tuning
Of course today there is the Flash memory on board with a 7730 it's more fast

So I really advise you to do with the Fast Ez-efi kit that will give you a correct setting for the use you want to make with your fiero

Don't give up and keep us posted
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Raydar
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Report this Post02-23-2023 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
...
My 3.1 is every so slightly hotter than what a stock 3.1 would be. I have .040 overbore pistons, and also decked the heads and intake so the compression is a little higher as well. I believe I'm getting around 9.2:1 compression (if I remember correctly). I don't suppose that makes too much of a difference, but I'm using 17# Accel (pintle-style) injectors. So I think the 17# are probably decent for what I'm doing, especially if I get rid of EGR and cold start injector.

I'm going to have to ask you about the springs when the time comes for that. Also, a problem I have is that I can't / shouldn't even start that engine with the EZ-EFI since if I remember correctly, to properly break in the cam I'll need to bring it to 2,000 rpms for a couple of minutes (it's been a long time since I looked at how all of that works..


I'm thinking those injectors will be fine. Wish I would have had those, as my 19s seemed to be just a bit large.

Your comment about springs just reminded me...
Be careful about lifters. Most people I've heard say to use the GM lifters (assuming they are still available). Several people on this forum had other "high performance" lifters to fail, and wipe out cam lobes in the process. And yeah... the GM lifters are more expensive.

Regarding the startup / break in. When I first started my 3.4, my headers glowed quite brightly. I tweaked the "tang" on the TPS to tell the engine that the throttle was open a bit more than it was. They still glowed, but not like they did at first.
My take on it is that if it's not overheating, and not turning the headers a bright red or white, just let it rip. It's close enough for the break-in to not damage anything. (Fiero headers glow a bit under normal conditions, anyway.)
Others may disagree. That's fine. I'm listening. Just my personal opinion.

9.2 should be fine. The 272 likes high compression. When I first got my 3.4, it pinged pretty badly with the stock cam, even on mid-grade. After I installed the 272, it ran fine with 12 degrees advance, on regular gas.


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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post02-23-2023 08:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Are you talking about the EZ-EFI 2.0? Because that is not at all what it does. You set the displacement, number of cyls, the type of timing controller (internal, or external), and that's literally all that's required. It has some basic fuel maps which are determined by cyls/displacement and then it self-learns and builds it's own fuel tables off of that. You can adjust the additional settings if you want, but it's unnecessary unless you want something specific.

I'm not sure why you guys are so adamant about me buying a Megasquirt. I'm happy to buy one and throw it on the shelf if that'll pacify the "I could have saved $500 bucks" argument? The money isn't important to me, reliability and simplicity is. My time is extremely valuable. I spent the first half of my adult life as a programmer, and don't want to have to sit there with a laptop fiddling with the settings of some old-ass GM controller... going back and forth, up and down the street, trying to dial in my fuel maps.

A truly intuitive system should not require that ... that's old technology. The EZ-EFI system continuously learns, essentially using machine learning to continually build those fuel tables, not a decision-tree algorithm. That's what I want.


Yeah, I was talking about the EZ-EFI 2.0.

It reads user-defined lookup tables, which are then mostly likely read by some human-written procedural program which then toggles the outputs as needed.

Here are some excerpts from the instruction manual:

Ignition curve, user-defined:


AFR table, user-defined:


Except for the VE table, nothing else in this ECU is self-tuning.

********************************************************************************

I do not think that you should favour one ECU over another.

I am adamant however that the EZ-EFI 2.0 is just like the other ECUs in concept; a procedural program following user-defined lookup tables.

As such, for the engine to run well, someone will need to tune the car doing trial/error trying different settings and seeing what works best. Just like the other ECUs.

The idea of install, push a few buttons, and drive, is IMO a well-engineered marketing dream. One can fall for the marketing, or not...

********************************************************************************

As mentioned, you can't teach a machine to learn anything if it's blind and without feedback. Perhaps eventually automotive ECUs can be self-tuning with AI, but not with the sensor complement of your powerplant.
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sleek fiero
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Report this Post02-23-2023 10:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sleek fieroSend a Private Message to sleek fieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi 82 T/A [at work] . Just a word about your cam. Yes that is a great grind. I have worked in the industry at an automotive machine shop reconditioning engines for years and here is my advice for your cam break in. Get yourself a tube of engine assembly lube or better yet a tube of Crane cam lube which is a molybdenum grease and use an ample amount on the cam and on the bottom of the new lifters. Also get a pan full of lucas High Zinc 10-30 for older cars and submerge your lifters pushrod end up. Take a pushrod and insert in end of lifter and push down multiple times until the lifter fills and you can't push it down anymore. This will prefill the lifters so they will not rattle on startup. Like wise use the lucas high zinc oil for engine breakin and keep using it for the life of your engine. Don't worry to much about your startup rpm as tou probably wont' have much control over idle speed at first but with the proper lube on your cam it should not gall on startup. Set your lifters to 0 clearance where with your fingers you can turn the pushrod freely . Then tighten 1/4 turn and your lifter will be set for street use. Some racers will not give the final 1/4 turn for a track car. You should check with Crane whether you can use your stock springs or get a matching performance set. Hope this info helps you and good luck.
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Report this Post02-24-2023 12:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MarkSSend a Private Message to MarkSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

Your comment about springs just reminded me...
Be careful about lifters. Most people I've heard say to use the GM lifters (assuming they are still available). Several people on this forum had other "high performance" lifters to fail, and wipe out cam lobes in the process. And yeah... the GM lifters are more expensive.



Agree, GM- the modern hydraulic flat tappet lifters are a constant source of controversy in the hot rod world, installation notes often say remove the inner valve springs before break in, figure this is their escape hatch if you don't & they fail. FWIW only, on my last cam swap in the 400, which was only a year or so ago, I used a set of NOS TRW lifters date coded to the early 80's, quality stuff back then. Worked out great WITHOUT removing the inner springs from the Edelbrock heads and the TRW instructions had nothing about removing valve springs. I believe VL94's were the TRW lifters from that time frame. "HyLift Johnson" are a decent modern lifter from my experience & others.

[This message has been edited by MarkS (edited 02-24-2023).]

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Report this Post02-24-2023 08:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


Hahah... perhaps. Incidentally, that's what I do for a living. I literally run a team of AI researchers. As the chief scientist of the company I work for says, "AI cannot reason," which is what I think you mean. But I think it's important to understand what AI can and cannot do well. Number crunching, and normalization is something that AI actually does really, really well. To be honest though, the EZ-EFI 2.0 isn't new. It's been around for almost a decade if I'm not mistaken. I think it came out in 2013, and there have been a couple of updates. It uses rudimentary machine learning, so not exactly the sophistication of a GAN or an NLP... but to be fair, the type of processing that's required in a fuel injection system is extremely simple.

If we're using AI terms... both systems use some form of machine learning logic. The difference is whether or not the learning model is done through supervised (what you're doing) or unsupervised (what I'm doing) learning. The inputs are the same... TPS, MAP, IAC, O2, etc. You go through a lot of effort to "dial in" these specifics (supervised learning)... but you're also merely using the input from these sensors to make a decision. This is something that machine learning can easily do on it's own.

Truth be told, I'd be willing to bet that all of these systems that are out there are so old that they're using very basic math algorithms. If someone put in even the slightest bit of effort into redesigning one of these... that "issue" would be solved tomorrow. But there aren't a lot of car guys who are also mathematicians, who are also computer programmers, who are also AI engineers. Never the less, it's not a hard problem... and there's no reason to go through the effort of repeatedly dynoing and "dialing in" a car's computer, when it simply should be able to optimize the efficiency on its own through basic math.

My kit comes in the mail today... so I'll post pictures when I get it. But I still need to tow my Fiero from the storage unit first.


BIG question I have though... if I'm going to be installing a new cam in my engine... I want to run it with the existing computer that's in there, right? I need to be able to run the car at 2,000 RPMs from the get-go (or whatever the break-in procedure is for a flat-tappet cam). It's been like a decade since I've really turned a wrench, so I've forgotten almost everything. If I put the FAST system on immediately, I'm concerned I may wipe out my cam.


EDIT: You encouraged me to reach out to Edelbrock and Holley to see if I can get some of the guys on my team to work with either of them on a new, more advanced system. I just asked to be able to buy the unit at cost when it comes out. I'll let you know what comes of it.



Well, you gave it away that you are an AI programmer in one of your comments in one of your earlier post that's why I mentioned AI. Even though you didn't say it straight on, psychology 101 teaches you to read between the lines and I took psychology right after high school because I was bored. I'm surprised you asked about flat tapped break-in when you have Artificial Intelligence that can do everything for you. Now you can clearly understand what I mean by AI missing the human touch. But I'm always about progressing and learning. Critics make you better on whatever you want to achieve. If it wasn't for critics I would have never reached the goals I've reached with the Iron heads. So don't take this in a negative way, take it as a way to improve your skills, just like I did.
What I'm trying to say is that whatever you do, give it 150% and learn along the way, critics are there to give you insight, not to hinder you. i wish you the best on your quest!
But I have a challenge for your AI and it's programmer.

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Report this Post02-25-2023 11:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm very skeptical of "self learning" EFI systems, and "plug and play" systems that make big claims.

I haven't dug into this system in particular, but I would highly recommend checking with dyno tuners in the area and seeing if any of them are willing to mess with it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the self learning functions left a ton of performance and drivability on the table.

The other thing you should do right now, before you take the car apart, is attempt to set a benchmark for the performance of the car as it sit right now. be it a dyno, dragstrip pass, 0-60 time, 20-80 time, whatever, do something to give a origin datapoint prior to the changes, that way after, you have a basis for comparison when you install the new system, and can verify you're at least meeting the original performance levels you had before you started. I would also try and record as many of the atmospheric conditions at the time you set these benchmarks, and try and do your after tests with as many of the variables similar that you can.

I've warmed up quite a bit to megasquirt over the past few years, it's much more refined than I had realized in the past, but it also still doesn't offer OEM levels of detail, knock detection/preventions is a decent example of this. On the other hand, with MS, the program running the car, is known by the tuning software, and datalogging can provide massive amounts of insight as to why things are happening,

here's a screenshot of the fuel calculations summary from my MS3, in my case, I don't have a ton of the available features turned on, so alot of the multipliers are just 1, but if I were to have a lean spike, I could use this to see if the lean spike was a commanded trim to the fueling, and which parameter drove this command, or if it wasn't, and I have some kind of other mechanical problem causing that.




I do think a dragstrip could be extremely valuable for making adjustments to the tune of a vehicle, as you remove many variables, that said, the majority of the drag strip tuning will be for WOT, unless you want to baby it down a few passes. it also offers limited transient tuning, this is where datalogs of street driving come in handy,

all that said, to me, it sounds like a ton of work to swap an EFI system, and not want to try and optimize it by tuning it, or have it optimized by someone. I see cars all the time at car shows that guys dumped a ton of money into, and have piles of great parts on it, but they run like junk and fowl plugs because they haven't taken the time to jet the carb, and adjust the ignition timing, or are making adjustments without any metrics for comparison, and then thinking that because it's running it's good. it's really sad to me, because in this day and age, anyone can download a GPS 0-60 app for their phone, and very easily see how their car's performance has changes mod for mod, for nothing more than the cost of the fuel to run the engine, and a little time.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.

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Report this Post02-25-2023 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Goal for me with this was to have a solid-running / driveable car. But now I'm interested in seeing where I can make this go with their engineering guys. They're interested, so the conversation has started.


Mission creep....
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Report this Post02-25-2023 08:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sleek fieroSend a Private Message to sleek fieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
82T/A [at work] I just thought I would touch base with you. thought you might use some of the info I have gathered installing my aftermarket ecu.I have lots of pic for my crank trigger and wheel and how I built my cam trigger out of my distributor. I have part numbers for knock sensors etc. I have done this procedure 3 times before I got the combination I am using now. Yes I now have sequential injection and I can map my ignition and fuel ratios. no need for cold start .Just let me know if you would like a little help .Sleek
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Report this Post02-27-2023 09:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by claude dalpe:

So I really advise you to do with the Fast Ez-efi kit that will give you a correct setting for the use you want to make with your fiero

Don't give up and keep us posted


I definitely won't, and I appreciate it! There's a few features that allow me to tweak and adjust the settings for optimal performance. Once I get everything set-up, and properly running, then I'll start fiddling with that to eek out a bit more performance. For the most part, I'm just going to be happy with it running well, and being able to drive it with a newer and more simplified wiring harness.


 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

I'm thinking those injectors will be fine. Wish I would have had those, as my 19s seemed to be just a bit large.

Your comment about springs just reminded me...
Be careful about lifters. Most people I've heard say to use the GM lifters (assuming they are still available). Several people on this forum had other "high performance" lifters to fail, and wipe out cam lobes in the process. And yeah... the GM lifters are more expensive.



The 17lb injectors seemed perfect. I decided on these because I knew that the 3.4 in the Camaro/Firebird had 17lb injectors, but they were the different style ones (not the pintle ones). These were good high-quality injectors, and I figured I'm probably going to be putting out perhaps a little more (or possibly the same) as a stock 3.4 V6/6 with my 3.1 (possibly 3.2 if I do the math right) engine. So it would be an ideal amount of fuel.

I'm definitely concerned about the cam... so I'm going to need to make sure I have the right oil content during break-in.


 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

Yeah, I was talking about the EZ-EFI 2.0.

It reads user-defined lookup tables, which are then mostly likely read by some human-written procedural program which then toggles the outputs as needed.

The idea of install, push a few buttons, and drive, is IMO a well-engineered marketing dream. One can fall for the marketing, or not...

********************************************************************************

As mentioned, you can't teach a machine to learn anything if it's blind and without feedback. Perhaps eventually automotive ECUs can be self-tuning with AI, but not with the sensor complement of your powerplant.



I don't know how we got into AI here... I don't think I brought it up, but none of the ECMs we're talking about use any form of AI. The EZ-EFI 2.0 uses a modest form of machine learning, but I wouldn't even really call it machine learning, because it's just continually (automatically) refining a fuel map variance based on variables it gets from the sensors. So... not really machine learning. The MegaSquirt most definitely does not use any machine learning, it's strictly a decision-tree model that references a fuel map (which you've defined) in accordance with variables it gets from the sensors.


Either way, I appreciate the enthusiasm... I do, and I appreciate any help you've given me in the past, or will give me in the future. But I need to make it clear that my goals are not the same as yours. This system works well on a variety of engines. It's a turn-key system that optimizes to the best of its ability, the air/fuel management (with timing advance). This system, as it's built now, will never be able to fine-tune a system to the point where it knows exactly where to lean out a mixture for a little bit more horsepower at certain RPMs. That's not what I'm looking for.

I'm looking for something that I can get into, start the car, and drive it, and drive it hard... and then put it away, and take it out a month later. I'm reliving my high-school years (this is my original car from high school). I'm not interested in getting an additional 6hp more at the expense of going to a dyno 4-5 times, having a custom tune made, and having to completely build my own wiring harness.

If Megasquirt sold a total replacement wiring harness, w/ an open-loop ECM that makes use of a heated O2 sensor and knock sensor that I can literally just swap out like I'm doing with the EZ-EFI 2.0... then I would buy it immediately. Matter of fact, if they had something like I just explained in the near future, I'll STILL probably buy it and stick it on the shelf for posterity and potentially using it in the future.

I've got way too much going on in my life... way too much. With what little time I have to spend on cars, I want it to be fun, not a pain in the ass. There was a time in my life when I spent every spare moment working on my cars (I had 9 and a golf cart at one point). Rebuilding engines, doing all kinds of stuff. I need to spend time with family. My daughter is going off to college in 4 years, and I need to make the most of those 4 years.

I know you believe that this system will simply fail... and I've wasted ~$1,500+. They would never build a system like this if that was the case. There are thousands of people who have successfully installed this system and have been VERY happy with it. As I think I will be too.

Again, I appreciate the past and future support...


 
quote
Originally posted by sleek fiero:

Hi 82 T/A [at work] . Just a word about your cam. Yes that is a great grind. I have worked in the industry at an automotive machine shop reconditioning engines for years and here is my advice for your cam break in. Get yourself a tube of engine assembly lube or better yet a tube of Crane cam lube which is a molybdenum grease and use an ample amount on the cam and on the bottom of the new lifters. Also get a pan full of lucas High Zinc 10-30 for older cars and submerge your lifters pushrod end up. Take a pushrod and insert in end of lifter and push down multiple times until the lifter fills and you can't push it down anymore. This will prefill the lifters so they will not rattle on startup. Like wise use the lucas high zinc oil for engine breakin and keep using it for the life of your engine. Don't worry to much about your startup rpm as tou probably wont' have much control over idle speed at first but with the proper lube on your cam it should not gall on startup. Set your lifters to 0 clearance where with your fingers you can turn the pushrod freely . Then tighten 1/4 turn and your lifter will be set for street use. Some racers will not give the final 1/4 turn for a track car. You should check with Crane whether you can use your stock springs or get a matching performance set. Hope this info helps you and good luck.


FANTASTIC!!! Thank you... I will absolutely do this. This is exactly what I needed. I'm terrified of wiping out this cam... I don't even think I can get this grind anymore.

Quick question... I put this cam in storage... in an unairconditioned storage unit in Florida. It may have surface rust on it, will that be a problem? I wrapped it in wax paper, and sprayed the hell out of it with engine oil before I put it away. I assume it should still be OK? (I'll find out soon enough).


 
quote
Originally posted by MarkS:

Agree, GM- the modern hydraulic flat tappet lifters are a constant source of controversy in the hot rod world, installation notes often say remove the inner valve springs before break in, figure this is their escape hatch if you don't & they fail. FWIW only, on my last cam swap in the 400, which was only a year or so ago, I used a set of NOS TRW lifters date coded to the early 80's, quality stuff back then. Worked out great WITHOUT removing the inner springs from the Edelbrock heads and the TRW instructions had nothing about removing valve springs. I believe VL94's were the TRW lifters from that time frame. "HyLift Johnson" are a decent modern lifter from my experience & others.



Do you think I really need to do this? Or can I set up the engine as I expect, and just go nuts with the zinc and assembly lube?

Thanks!!!


 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

I'm very skeptical of "self learning" EFI systems, and "plug and play" systems that make big claims.

I haven't dug into this system in particular, but I would highly recommend checking with dyno tuners in the area and seeing if any of them are willing to mess with it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the self learning functions left a ton of performance and drivability on the table.

The other thing you should do right now, before you take the car apart, is attempt to set a benchmark for the performance of the car as it sit right now. be it a dyno, dragstrip pass, 0-60 time, 20-80 time, whatever, do something to give a origin datapoint prior to the changes, that way after, you have a basis for comparison when you install the new system, and can verify you're at least meeting the original performance levels you had before you started. I would also try and record as many of the atmospheric conditions at the time you set these benchmarks, and try and do your after tests with as many of the variables similar that you can.



This would be "sound advice," however, the car has been sitting in storage for 12 years. It had a few issues before I started swapping in a 5-Speed. It had loose torque-converter bolts (forgot to use locktite), and the engine fell flat at about 4,500 rpms. Like... almost no power above that. I think it's a combination of the fact that I didn't have the rotating assembly balanced before I put it together, and I'm thinking I wiped out a cam lobe. I'm planning on pulling the motor, taking it to a local machine shop to have the rotating assembly properly balanced, and having them install my Crane Cam. I just don't have the time to do any of that. I'm also going to send off my 17-lb injectors to be cleaned, and do a few other things. Car is in pretty good shape, but I didn't get to the engine bay before I put it in storage: https://www.pontiacperforma...et/car87FieroSE.html

Click the dash / gauge warning lights to see the work I've done. Note, I haven't really updated the site in a decade, so... some links and images will be broken when I converted from a Windows hosting to a Linux (case sensitivity in the file names).


 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

Mission creep....


The best kind!!!


 
quote
Originally posted by sleek fiero:

82T/A [at work] I just thought I would touch base with you. thought you might use some of the info I have gathered installing my aftermarket ecu.I have lots of pic for my crank trigger and wheel and how I built my cam trigger out of my distributor. I have part numbers for knock sensors etc. I have done this procedure 3 times before I got the combination I am using now. Yes I now have sequential injection and I can map my ignition and fuel ratios. no need for cold start .Just let me know if you would like a little help .Sleek



Thanks Sleek! I had some back and forth with the engineers there, and they told me (I think like you said), that I can use my stock distributor. There's just one issue where I need to convert a positive 5v signal... they said it will work, but they don't recommend it because it can actually lead to frying the ECM. They said the most ideal thing to do would be to put an MSD box inline... but otherwise, the stock Fiero's distributor (and ignition control module), will still be used. I'll make a post in the next day or so when I have some time.

Thank you!!!



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Report this Post02-27-2023 11:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MarkSSend a Private Message to MarkSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Originally posted by MarkS:

Agree, GM- the modern hydraulic flat tappet lifters are a constant source of controversy in the hot rod world, installation notes often say remove the inner valve springs before break in, figure this is their escape hatch if you don't & they fail. FWIW only, on my last cam swap in the 400, which was only a year or so ago, I used a set of NOS TRW lifters date coded to the early 80's, quality stuff back then. Worked out great WITHOUT removing the inner springs from the Edelbrock heads and the TRW instructions had nothing about removing valve springs. I believe VL94's were the TRW lifters from that time frame. "HyLift Johnson" are a decent modern lifter from my experience & others.


Do you think I really need to do this? Or can I set up the engine as I expect, and just go nuts with the zinc and assembly lube?

Thanks!!!

Well, I've done about 4 cam swaps over the past 5 years due to my multiple personalities, I go from cruising to bruising and back. Honestly I've used the HyLift Johnson's (new production) & the TRW's without removing any valve springs and had no issues myself. It's the anecdotal things I've read across the different boards over the recent years (some here with that exact cam) that give me pause. As for GM lifters, looks like the GM 5234212 are discontinued but probably available other places in the market. I use the CompCams break in oil along with Joe Gibbs Racing Driven Assembly Grease. BTW, are you really still sitting on the BB Olds? I would have thought it might have found its way into something by now.

[This message has been edited by MarkS (edited 02-27-2023).]

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Report this Post02-27-2023 02:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by MarkS:
As for GM lifters, looks like the GM 5234212 are discontinued but probably available other places in the market.

One of many reasons why I rebuild the roller-cam blocks instead of 2.8/3.1/3.4 blocks. I maintain the 'roller' hardware...and the stock 3X00 setup provides a mild cam upgrade as well. (.436/.436 with 1.6 rockers)

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 02-27-2023).]

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Report this Post02-27-2023 02:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sleek fieroSend a Private Message to sleek fieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
82T/a. i THINK YOU ARE DEFINITLY ON THE RIGHT TRACK GETTING THE MACHINE SHOP TO BALANCE AND ASSEMBLE. as for your cam they can assess the rust or lack of and by the way your cam is still available. As for lifters , Crane ,Comp cams and Crower all have high quality lifters that they actually warranty when used with their cams. Being such a high lift cam I would get the springs Crane recommends for your cam. There would be nothing worse than wiping out your cam because of coil bind. Keep me posted . Sleek
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Report this Post03-01-2023 07:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just a quick update, I've been talking back and forth with the tech, and I can use my stock distributor, and the stock ignition control module. Everything bolts right up. The ONLY issue that remains is that the distributor has an analog "ground" switching signal, and it needs to be converted into a positive switching signal. There's a couple of things I can do to rectify that, but the easiest turned out to be simply making use of an MSD 6EFI ignition box, which will convert the signal for me, and of course... also provide a multitude of benefits as well.

I should be getting the 6EFI in the mail today, and I will put together a diagram for the ignition wiring.

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Report this Post03-01-2023 08:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MarkS:

Agree, GM- the modern hydraulic flat tappet lifters are a constant source of controversy in the hot rod world, installation notes often say remove the inner valve springs before break in, figure this is their escape hatch if you don't & they fail. FWIW only, on my last cam swap in the 400, which was only a year or so ago, I used a set of NOS TRW lifters date coded to the early 80's, quality stuff back then. Worked out great WITHOUT removing the inner springs from the Edelbrock heads and the TRW instructions had nothing about removing valve springs. I believe VL94's were the TRW lifters from that time frame. "HyLift Johnson" are a decent modern lifter from my experience & others.
Do you think I really need to do this? Or can I set up the engine as I expect, and just go nuts with the zinc and assembly lube?




I've never had a problem with lifters for decades. The key is to use the proper oil for the application. Too much zinc is also bad. Since you are invested in this spend some money and get a set of lifters with an oil jet at the face. I use them in all my engines and I use very high spring pressures and have never had a cam go flat. With this jet of oil directly on the cam lobe the mating surfaces are not dependent on splash oil from the crankshaft.


Another critical way is break in.



Get the best protection when starting the engine. You can get the moly dry lube at your local parts store. People don't know but long cranking will wipe out all the lubricant from the mating surfaces, the more protection you have the better.
We all are rooting for you!


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Report this Post03-01-2023 09:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by sleek fiero:

82T/a. i THINK YOU ARE DEFINITLY ON THE RIGHT TRACK GETTING THE MACHINE SHOP TO BALANCE AND ASSEMBLE. as for your cam they can assess the rust or lack of and by the way your cam is still available. As for lifters , Crane ,Comp cams and Crower all have high quality lifters that they actually warranty when used with their cams. Being such a high lift cam I would get the springs Crane recommends for your cam. There would be nothing worse than wiping out your cam because of coil bind. Keep me posted . Sleek



Thanks! I'm going to start looking for a machine shop this month so I can drop my engine off. I'll reach out to Crane and see if they can give me the part numbers for those springs.

I really hope you stick around on Pennocks... you have a lot of experience and I know we can all benefit from it here!


 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

I've never had a problem with lifters for decades. The key is to use the proper oil for the application. Too much zinc is also bad. Since you are invested in this spend some money and get a set of lifters with an oil jet at the face. I use them in all my engines and I use very high spring pressures and have never had a cam go flat. With this jet of oil directly on the cam lobe the mating surfaces are not dependent on splash oil from the crankshaft.

Another critical way is break in.

Get the best protection when starting the engine. You can get the moly dry lube at your local parts store. People don't know but long cranking will wipe out all the lubricant from the mating surfaces, the more protection you have the better.
We all are rooting for you!



Those are FANTASTIC!!! I've never seen flat-tappet lifters like that.

Couple of questions, what effect does it have on oil pressure? Do you see any degradation at all in oil pressure, or is it unnoticeable? Also... when / if you've disassembled an engine with lifters like these, have you seen any improper wearing, like perhaps a scoring line along where the opening is?

Is there a specific name for these, or do you happen to have a part number for these for the Gen-1 V6/60?


Thank you! I will definitely use the dry-lube.


EDIT: I did some quick searches, and the only thing I see is a mention of Isky and Crower as having them. I've reached out to both, but I don't see anything on their website specifically, but I might be using the wrong terms. Do you know if they actually sell these for the V6/60, or if the V6/60 uses lifters that are also in say, the SBC?

Thanks!

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 03-01-2023).]

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Report this Post03-01-2023 10:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


Those are FANTASTIC!!! I've never seen flat-tappet lifters like that.

Couple of questions, what effect does it have on oil pressure? Do you see any degradation at all in oil pressure, or is it unnoticeable? Also... when / if you've disassembled an engine with lifters like these, have you seen any improper wearing, like perhaps a scoring line along where the opening is?

Is there a specific name for these, or do you happen to have a part number for these for the Gen-1 V6/60?


Thank you! I will definitely use the dry-lube.


EDIT: I did some quick searches, and the only thing I see is a mention of Isky and Crower as having them. I've reached out to both, but I don't see anything on their website specifically, but I might be using the wrong terms. Do you know if they actually sell these for the V6/60, or if the V6/60 uses lifters that are also in say, the SBC?

Thanks!



No scoring of any kind. I have a set of used one and I will take a picture of them when I get home. As far as the oil pressure no difference. As for the lifters call Camcraft 828-681-5183 and ask for Hunter, tell him Rei sent you and you need a set of lifters made with the orifice. He makes all my cams and lifters.

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Report this Post03-01-2023 11:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My experience with FAST EFI using their TBI unit was very disappointing.
FAST tried to help me, but let's face it, a SD4 is not a V8 engine.
I had to LIE to their ECU to get it to work half right and it still had shortcomings.
(double the injector rate, or halve the engine displacement)



My full writeup has disappeared form their Forum pages.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/...L/000077-5.html#p197

I got it to work reasonably well using a GM 7165 ECM and TunerPro.
So I figured I may as well build a MPFI system and dump their TBI unit.
This has worked out extremely well. Lots of power and 30mpg with a race engine.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/...L/000077-6.html#p226



Now I have 2 FAST TBI units sitting on a shelf.
I guess I should post them on eBay sometime.



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3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 03-02-2023).]

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