85 GT wouldn't start in the morning, so I boosted it and all was fine for the morning. Then I hit a bump and it cut all power to my car for a split second, Then after when I pressed the brakes I can hear the idle crimple down(almost to a stall), It seemed like an electrical issue so I turned headlights and radio off, and got home safe. The battery was a 2 1/2 year old Ever start, so I went to Walmart and got a replacement under warranty as my first step. Car started and didn't have any issues until the next day, where it wouldn't start on it's own again, boosted it again, then when I pressed the brakes it stalled instantly.
I was thinking it was a bad ground, or alt. I looked for the engine to R/H deck hinge ground and found it was broken off and floating, Got a new ground strap from AZ cleaned both grounds, greased it, then boosted the car again, I was able to press brakes and lights seemed way brighter but then 5 min later the same issue where i press brakes it it stalls, lights dim and It won't start on its own. I've checked most of the common grounds and they all look okay. I thought that the broken ground would fix my issues but now I'm at a loss. Could that bad ground have killed my battery and now that I fixed the ground I need a new bat again ?
I was possibly thinking a bad alt, or fusible link. I've tried to look around the forum and ogre's cave for this symptom but no luck. any suggestions would help a lot. I'll be back for updates. (Edit)>also forgot to add that every time I boost it, the idle jumps from about 16-1700 until I add a load on the electrical and it stalls.
Thanks, -Zach
[This message has been edited by Zach85GT (edited 01-08-2023).]
Do this CAREFULLY so you don't tangle the cable in the motor. Take a pair of jumper cables and use only one of the cables to tie from the negative of the battery to one of the bolts on the engine. Make sure the rest of the cable is out of the way of moving parts. Start the engine and see if it stalls.
Jumped/Boost battery takes time to charge... If the battery is still good... Starter Batteries are often wrecked drain < ~ 11v and may charge but damage will shorten the lifetime a lot. If you drive after jumping then needs highway speeds and 30min to 1 hour or more to charge. Is better and often safer to charge w/ 6-10a plugin charger.
But new battery dies overnight. can be bad alt, gen 1 HL motor or releys, etc.
Turn on to Raise HL then pull plugs for the motors and leave motors disconnected. Pull the alt and get part store to check is working etc. SI alts are know to kill a battery when diodes are bad.
See my Cave, Battery & Battery Leaches Get a small DC Amp Clamp to find problems faster and w/o disconnecting/cutting wires.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I will try to jump the car tomorrow morning with neg to a engine bolt, Any specific bolt that works best/won't work ?
Mike, I was thinking the same with a bad bat ground, but I disconnected the big bat cable and wire brush cleaned the end, greased it and it looked good for the most part.
Ogre, I was trying to leave it running for a bit after boosting it, but after around like 10-13 min it stalled on its own, the RPMs start super high like around 17-1800 don't drop until it starts to go down to around 700 and barley run then stalls. Keep in mind that at any point I press brake or turn on head lights it will kill the car also.
Thanks guys, I have all day tomorrow after 4 to work on it.
If you battery is going dead overnight to the point you have to boost it - you have a short someplace that is killing the battery.
I would start there.
Get a current meter and measure the amperage coming from the battery while it is parked (key off). Check Ogre's Cave: http://fierocave.shorturl.com/ratio.htm
The Current with a multi meter is 11.1 v... it Should be around 12.6v (parked and key off) correct ?... I haven't tested volts while running yet... The volts should be around 14.4v on running fieros correct ?
I like the idea of a short because after I shut the car off the battery is dead instantly...
I'd definitely check your grounds - especially the one that goes to the engine block.
On my 86 SE the nut that holds the terminal tight to the bolt had backed off at some point in the past. The whole thing had rusted. The terminal was just wiggling up and down with my fingers.
How it was able to run as well as it did, I have no idea.
I replaced the bolt and negative wire and was surprised how much better it ran.
I like the idea of a short because after I shut the car off the battery is dead instantly...
We go down this road so often here.
If your Fiero is killing its battery while just sitting there, the first thing to check is the headlight motors. Disconnect the single wire that goes to each motor and see if the battery now retains its charge.
sorry to break in but when I read this it reminded me of mine one day. I would touch the brakes and it would stall or idle would go up. After some checking I found that the brake booster diaphragm had a hole in it. we put in a fresh booster and everything returned to normal. just an idea to check.
So I went to check battery with a multi meter again with headlights disconnected, key in off position and noting on, I got a low reading of 11.05v again. I wanted to see if what IMSA said about attaching the negative booster cable to a engine bolt and seeing if that helps anything, the main battery terminals went up to around 13.5v but It would not start like that for some reason. I just picked up ANOTHER battery from Walmart (Under warranty of course) and new negative battery cables for tomorrows adventures.
And while I'm trouble shooting the electrical I was going to add more grounds as recommended by like everyone and maybe this will help some of my issues... the first one I was going to add was from the EGR bracket to battery tray. Any recommendations for other common grounds to add ?
⚠️ Warning: Do Not add more grounds! That often make More Problems no matter what many claims here and elsewhere.
Fix/clean all "grounds" bolted/screwed to engine and frame. See my Cave, Wire Service
⚠️ Warning: Do Not connect the battery and leave it a few hours let alone overnight. Maybe HL motor but may not be and wreck another battery. Go on amazon a get https://www.amazon.com/Uni-...itance/dp/B00O1Q2HOQ or something small w/ DC Amp Clamp. Many clamp meters are AC Amps only and won't work here.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Are you disconnecting the headlights or their motors?
This is a very important test to perform. In my case, I only needed to touch each headlight motor to identify the one that was continuously cycling on and off after the car was parked, it was pretty warm to the touch.
This is the wire I disconnected, this is the correct wire to the HL motor right....?
So I replaced the big negative battery wire and cleaned up the bolt to engine ground again... Put brand new battery in, tested it and got a good 12.6v. Connected both battery cables, tested it again and got another good 12.59v reading. Left it connected for about 15-20 min then tested it again to see if something was draining it, still got a good 12.59v. Started the car and it fired right up without any boost, ran perfect without any symptoms, so I went to test voltage at the battery again with the engine running, it was at 12.05v . So this points to an obvious issue with the alt, correct ? Not getting any charge from the alt to battery?? or can something else be causing this? I just have a hard time believing that just a bad alt can cause such weird symptoms. Could a short or fusible link also cause this ?
I'm assuming if I left it running for long enough it would just kill this battery and I would be back to boosting it. my next step is to pull the alt and get it tested somewhere on a bench.
This is the wire I disconnected, this is the correct wire to the HL motor right....?
Yes, that's the single wire to the headlight motor. I assume you disconnected both motors.
quote
Originally posted by Zach85GT:
Started the car and it fired right up without any boost, ran perfect without any symptoms, so I went to test voltage at the battery again with the engine running, it was at 12.05v
It's only 2.55v short. I wouldn't worry about it.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 01-10-2023).]
Originally posted by Patrick: It's only 2.55v short. I wouldn't worry about it.
Nope. The battery is 1/2 Dead and needs Charging w/ 6 to 10 amp charger before he installs a replacement alt. should need only a couple hours or less to charge w/ smaller chargers.
Last battery likely only need charging but many Wmarts don't have auto service even tho same stores sells battery and ever tires.
Don't let replacement alt to charge low/dead battery first time or if replacement is iffy/bad out of box then battery gets more abuse.
While HL Motor and Alt dead is two dif problems but a motor killing the battery can cause alt problems. Because SI alt's does not self protect from a dead battery, < 10-11 v, pulling max amps rated and more and kill the SI. (CS has protections but jumping/boosting can "void" the protection and kill a CS.)
Originally posted by Patrick: do you not understand the purpose of the after my comment?
And you like others assume PFF Smilies are easy to "read" let alone what they mean. Even with "Modern Screen" because high res screens often make text and everything else way small at same pixel/point text size. w/ Text Zoomed by Browsers 150% or more and use glasses many can't see well just a yellow dot w/ some squiggles. Even if you see ; ) in the quote when posting, ; and : at normal text size looks same to many.
Even tittle icons can be hard to read... Smile between sunglasses and mad always look like eyes with / \ eyebrows on many displays.
Not just Smilies by whatever name... Many "True" Emojis can be hard to tell just what they are when all are same color. (or worse some have "hidden" meaning etc that trigger the woke mob etc but lets ignore that issue.)
Because isn't just reader's eyes but hundreds of screens and GPUs to render the output and even now many screens hate small pictures make for higher resolution. 99+% of server side inserted "Smilies" are "GIF" or other Bit Maps that doesn't scale well. True Emojis are rendered local by a Browser or OS but many things can's scale them too. Because Emojis are just Single Unicode Character Codes and whatever have to have a local "font" w/ them and many programs still use Bit Maps to display them. Even if use True Type or PS tiny pictures are problems to many devices before anyone reading them.
This Is why Emojis look different for each OS version and even from one program and version of that on whatever OS. Icrap and Droid default Emojis are different looking. Chrome FF and Safari Browsers on PC are often app depended and look different most times too. Is also why many OS/Programs auto scale Emojis 2x to a lot more of Text size every time there used.
Example: Go to https://emojipedia.org/warning/ and look at example outputs for OS and Programs for 1 Emoji. And the example likely skipped many devices, OS or Program Versions. Just in recent FF versions on PC seems display of emojis has change. Likely their Emoji Font has changed above adding new ones.
While Emojis are "just" Standardize "Wingdings/wingbats" type symbols, Many programs and OS don't list Emojis Files in the Font List of whatever program. May not show in installed Fonts either. But often is still a Font to many things and handles about same and even bold tags etc can change the display of them. In other cases is inline images in text and move with the text sim to PFF smilies but bold tagging etc often doesn't matter.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 01-11-2023).]
And you like others assume PFF Smilies are easy to "read" let alone what they mean.
It's not my problem if people are out of touch and/or choose to read PFF posts on their phones.
Alright alright, you've made your point.
Seems to me though that specifically referencing that the battery voltage on a running engine was more than 2-1/2 volts below what it should be was enough of an indication that there is a problem that needs to be dealt with... no matter what joking comment and/or winking smiley face I used afterwards.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 01-11-2023).]
Originally posted by Patrick: It's not my problem if people are out of touch and/or choose to read PFF posts on their phones.
quote
Originally posted by PhatMax: Note to self……. Don’t use emoji’s with the Ogre..
Guys isn't just me or people using phones or smaller tablets w/ best screen you can get now. And isn't new issue. Even w/ old CRT could happen w/ better monitors and higher res.
The majority of Desktop PC now have high res panels but not big screens because of cost, space or both. Most max at ~ 19" standard and ~ 23-25" wide formats regardless of res because of space. More so w/ multi screens.
I have HP 2311x wide, 1920x1080, and very old Dell 1901FP, 1280x1024, LCD panels on 1 PC. Now guess which panel is physically smaller then the other.... The Dell. But Wrong. The 1901FP is ~ 7/8" bigger vertically then the HP.
Windows is exact opposite and claims the Dell is smaller by ~ 1/2". And Not Just this setup but I've often see people have same problem w/ 2 or more screen w/ different models or brands.Click for the obvious answer, AKA as Windows would show in Screen Resolution
Bigger panel has Bigger Pixels (ignore actual terms. doesn't matter.) And just dragging any window is like auto zoom in or out depending which direction you drag. If the big screen w/ 12pt Times is easy to see... drag to the small screen and like font size dropped to 10pt or smaller.
When I need WYSIWYG from MS Word that matches even close to any printout. I use the bigger panel.
Worse. Windows and likely bad data from monitor makers makes problems w/ people that can't use same monitor for multi screen setups for most reasons. So when in "Change the appearance of your displays" the screens shown often do not meet reality and when the cursor changes screen then cursor hangs up or jumps up or down.
So ummm, I started the car to get the car on blocks so I can get the jack under it, I diddn't want to shut it off right away for obvious reasons, So I let it run for 10+ minutes before checking the Voltage at the battery... 14.4v Car sounded perfect, Idle sounded steadier than ever. I was suspicious, so I turned on all accessories and voltage was at a respectable 13.3v(Keep in mind I still have old SI alt and that sucks at charging while idle) and The stalling when I press the brakes was no longer an issue. So I took it for a drive to get gas and see if anything would go wrong. It was perfect. I did still have the headlight motors disconnected. How can I diagnose this as the issue ? I hate when issues seem to just disappear, because just the other day I was getting a below 12v reading without doing anything in-between. Could I just have pulled a really really stupid moment and tested the voltage before the alt started to charge ? Thanks for all the input guys!
Also I just wanted to say one thing to Patrick and ogre, 1st. I have lots of respect for you both because you guys have been working on Fierro's before I was even a thought. 2nd. I have been snooping on this forum for a bit and have seen alot of good things from both of you, But for some reason when you guys start to reply to the same topic, you guys compete with each other . Just give each other a neg rating and Work TOGETHER to trouble shoot because sheesh, 32k+ post from each = 64k+ things each of you have seen that's a lot of knowledge I could only wish to have...
Anyways, now that I know my alt is okay (I think lol) how do I figure out if my headlight motor is the thing actually draining my battery ?
Also I just wanted to say one thing to Patrick and ogre, 1st. I have lots of respect for you both because you guys have been working on Fierro's before I was even a thought. 2nd. I have been snooping on this forum for a bit and have seen alot of good things from both of you, But for some reason when you guys start to reply to the same topic, you guys compete with each other . Just give each other a neg rating and Work TOGETHER to trouble shoot because sheesh, 32k+ post from each = 64k+ things each of you have seen that's a lot of knowledge I could only wish to have...
Don't read too much into the kibitzing between The Ogre and myself. I have nothing but respect for The Ogre, dating back to the start of this forum in 1999. Just because we may disagree occasionally on a topic doesn't mean we're fighting. People have different ways of looking at things, and different ways of tackling an issue. If we all agreed on everything, life would get awfully boring.
Anyways, now that I know my alt is okay (I think lol) how do I figure out if my headlight motor is the thing actually draining my battery ?
As Joseph mentioned Here, the offending headlight motor probably gets warm from continually cycling on and off (until it kills the battery).
Since you've now got the motors disconnected, I suspect that putting a test light into the circuit (at the disconnected plugs) would tell you which motor is drawing power (when it shouldn't be).
Don't read too much into the kibitzing between The Ogre and myself. I have nothing but respect for The Ogre, dating back to the start of this forum in 1999. Just because we may disagree occasionally on a topic doesn't mean we're fighting. People have different ways of looking at things, and different ways of tackling an issue. If we all agreed on everything, life would get awfully boring.
I recall one moment early on, I thought the Ogre was a big, mean bullyperson - (I mean, look at that username! ) but he was just spelling out some facts related to something. It's sometimes difficult to ascertain intent when reading text. And subteties such as sarcasm sometimes doesn't get detected...
Eskimo.
Hope your Electrical gremlin goes away.
[This message has been edited by TheDigitalAlchemist (edited 01-12-2023).]
The Ogre... Demeanor is always partly to play a role, similar to Shrek, and other reasons and then had a stroke.
I remember when The Ogre first returned here after suffering his stroke. It was plenty challenging for him. I admire his fortitude in coming back from that!
Yea your right Partick, I probably did look at that a bit wrong, And yes agreeing with everything is boring.
I will test the draw from that connector and see if plugging it back in will draw power from the battery. Meanwhile, I was planning on taking the alt out and getting it tested but no need for that anymore. I had already pulled all the wheel well coverings off which was a pain lol... And was thinking about swapping to a CS130 with a adaptor, like many others have. Just one question, Is the CS130 a direct fit on the SI Bracket if the holes are 180* across from each other ? on a 85 GT v6? I know it comes with a lot of benefits and I plan to keep this Fiero for the foreseeable future so in my mind the swap is worth it now.
Also I'm a bit of a dummy, How do I tell if I have a charging system light. Is that the red battery icon that appears when battery volts are low ? I don't have a volt gauge, but idk if I have a charging light. Don't mind that question it was probably thought to read sorry...
14.x volt is good... But have problems charge one day not others can be many things including the alt.
Again, Fix/clean all "grounds" bolted/screwed to engine and frame. 1 or more iffy ground can cause a lot of headaches. Use silicone or permatex brake grease on them.
And Check/Fix the alt's side plug. If iffy then the "battery" bulb, sense wire or both have problems and not turn on the alt or worse cause high volts. What the sense wire does? See my Cave, Alternator Sense
All 85-88 Fiero has a "battery" light. SI and Some CS needs the lamp to work to turn on itself. (84 has hidden "resistor" doing same.) Ignore Dash Volt Meter for now. Often lies when have real problems and nothing to do turning on the alt. Do Not "bypass" the "Battery" light w/ just wire. That can blow the alt. You can use a test light to the battery to test the alt.
To test the bulb, unplug alt side plug and ground the Brown Wire. Bulb should be On and full bright. Do Not touch Red Wire w/ a ground! A short there dumps full power from the battery and can fry fusible links and more.
Dash lights die for many reasons not just a bad/blown bulb. All are 194 w/ "PC" socket. Socket can "break" the metal and not connect to bulb, dash or both. Dash plastics can warp shrink etc and socket won't connect to the board.
"Quick" test is to swap 2 bulbs. May even have spare(s) in 2 unused holes. Ignore all bulb "maps" because even GM doc's are wrong. see https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/138175.html Instrument panel bulb layout
If someone pulled the big plugs on back of dash... Board copper "glue" can fail and copper can bend/break and no connect or worse short out w/ another "pin."
Since you've now got the motors disconnected, I suspect that putting a test light into the circuit (at the disconnected plugs) would tell you which motor is drawing power (when it shouldn't be).
Yes start with a test light. If there is big current drain you will blow the fuses in a multimeter when used in amp mode.
------------------ formerly known as sanderson 1984 Quad 4 1886 SE 2.8L 1988 4.9L Cadillac 1988 3800 Supercharged
Sorry for the big gap between replies, But I am currently working on getting the alternator out, its been a big PITA as expected. Okay maybe a bit more of a PITA than I thought. I broke the top alternator pivot bolt, even after being super cautious, I used PB blaster, heated the bracket casing with a torch, and wiggled the bolt back and forth before applying big leverage one way, and it still broke right at the threads.... So that has been my project between work and class for the past week lol. I also broke a metal brake line. (I really should have disconnect those) they were super rusted anyways.... Back on topic.
The headlight are not the source of the issue, I reconnected them and still have same issue. I have a strong feeling my old SI alternator has sorted out and is drawing power from the battery. After I get this pesky broken bolt out (which I think I'm going to drill through the alt bracket and shred the bolt, as I ordered a new one.) and get the new CS alt in there I will update everyone. The next thing I'm going to try if this dose not resolve, is look at all the fusible links.
Draining over night + using a Clamp meter should show what circuit and fast and w/o cutting wires or taking apart whatever.
That should tell if the Alt is drain the battery w/ engine off too. Or just disconnect the alt wire @ back of alt and side plug. ⚠️ Warning: Discon the battery while wrenching on alt output bolt.
. So this points to an obvious issue with the alt, correct ? Not getting any charge from the alt to battery?? or can something else be causing this? I just have a hard time believing that just a bad alt can cause such weird symptoms. Could a short or fusible link also cause this ? 
. 
) but he was just spelling out some facts related to something. It's sometimes difficult to ascertain intent when reading text. And subteties such as sarcasm sometimes doesn't get detected... 
) they were super rusted anyways.... Back on topic. 
