Now I need a new gear box for my 3.4pr on an '88 cradle.
Going F23 I would be relying on someone's prefab mounts/brackets, which I think means WCF, so there's that. Ultimately I don't *want* to spend $1500 but as I haven't done sod all for a year it's not such a big deal. I can get an F23 locally pretty cheap.
There are no 282s anywhere in California near as I can tell. I don't have the energy to go try and junkyard one even if I could find one. Since it's gonna get delivered, it just makes sense to me to move to the HTOB version and take those incremental improvements and the better slave cylinder.
The cost variance here isn't insane... $1500 or so for F23 and $800 or so 282 (trans/new slave/new shift brackets). It's all fungible.
For those of you who've done this, is the improvement in shift quality with the F23 worth the sacrifice of shorter gear ratios? I'm really struggling with that equation, especially since the last thing a 3.4 needs is shorter gearing.
(I suppose there is also a hybrid F23 option... 2.2l bell with XFE gearing? Not sure I wanna tackle that - effort or time)
I have done the 92-94 HTOB Getrag upgrade as well as reworked a F23 swap. Your path forward is much more direct with the 92-94 HTOB setup as most parts (mounts, axles, cables, and clutch) will interchange. You have to connect the HTOB, add a signal converter for the VSS (one is for sale in the mall) and get some FWD shift brackets from Rodney. The only caveat is the 92-94 versions came with the 3.61 as well as a 3.94 final drive, so you will want to make sure you are getting the right final drive. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/...120111-2-091336.html
The F23 will require new mounts, shifter brackets, HTOB connector, VSS signal converter, a custom shift cable, and some work on the clutch/pressure plate fitment. It does shift like a hot knife through butter, but outside of that I am not a fan of the F23. It works great for many people, but it checks very few boxes of what I am looking for with a manual transmission.
That's about where I am... The shift quality for the 282 is really bad, and my daily driver is a 1985 Saab 900 so I know some stuff about bad shift quality.... But I think the only F23 worth entertaining is a hybrid, and that's gonna get me close to $2k.
For the 282, I have an SGI 5E left over from another project, which I think does this job as well. Still out all the hardware either way.
I am leaning towards staying with a 282 mostly because it's a known quantity, and I don't have to rely on anyone to knock it out. WCF says they have stock on their F23 hardware but, uh, you know.
Am I correct the 282s with the correct gear ratio were behind 3.1 V6 cars? The four cylinder cars had the shorter gears? Presumably there is no way to tell from the outside... Labels etc. have been probably gone for decades.
Originally posted by thesameguy: Am I correct the 282s with the correct gear ratio were behind 3.1 V6 cars? The four cylinder cars had the shorter gears? Presumably there is no way to tell from the outside... Labels etc. have been probably gone for decades.
Yes, you want a 3.1 V6 transmission from a car. The V6 in the vans and Q4s have the 3.94 ratio.
If the transmission is out, put it in 4th gear and count how many rotations of the input shaft for 1 full rotation of the differential. One will be close to 4, the other will be just less than 3.5.
I'm probably gonna end up ordering from some car-part.com junkyard but I am holding out how that mantrans.net has one... Will probably find out Tuesday. If they do, that'll sway me strongly towards the 282 option... My big hesitation there is really just sourcing a 30 year old transmission that still works right. :/
Originally posted by fieroguru: It works great for many people, but it checks very few boxes of what I am looking for with a manual transmission.
if you don't mind me asking, what "checks the boxes" for you?
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Originally posted by ericjon262: if you don't mind me asking, what "checks the boxes" for you?
Strength/Durability - daily driver reliable Effective Lauch Ratio Low Cruise RPMs - I frequently drive 8-12 hrs with the cruise @ 85 - just stopping for gas Aesthetics of the install Doesn't make the car feel like an over-geared drag car Overall fun to drive
For the 2 months I was able to swap back and forth between my LS4/F40 and a SBC/F23 Fiero. I found the F23 always 1 gear higher and leaving me looking for another gear or two. It is a strong and functional transmission, but not well suited for V8 swaps. I was pretty happy with the LS4/F40 (3.55) combo, but the F40 with the 3.091 final drive is just AWESOME from an overall driving experience perspective. It definitely has spoiled me...
I'm probably gonna end up ordering from some car-part.com junkyard but I am holding out how that mantrans.net has one... Will probably find out Tuesday. If they do, that'll sway me strongly towards the 282 option... My big hesitation there is really just sourcing a 30 year old transmission that still works right. :/
Be careful with the rebuilders... they mix and match parts to make good transmissions. Several have purchased a rebuilt one and found that it has the 3.94 final drive swapped in. You will want to confirm it still has the 3.61 final drive.
Strength/Durability - daily driver reliable Effective Lauch Ratio Low Cruise RPMs - I frequently drive 8-12 hrs with the cruise @ 85 - just stopping for gas Aesthetics of the install Doesn't make the car feel like an over-geared drag car Overall fun to drive
For the 2 months I was able to swap back and forth between my LS4/F40 and a SBC/F23 Fiero. I found the F23 always 1 gear higher and leaving me looking for another gear or two. It is a strong and functional transmission, but not well suited for V8 swaps. I was pretty happy with the LS4/F40 (3.55) combo, but the F40 with the 3.091 final drive is just AWESOME from an overall driving experience perspective. It definitely has spoiled me...
I can understand that, so, most of your "problem" with the F23 is gearing? I like the idea of the 3.09:1 F40, maybe my next project will get one. I think with my V6, the 3.63 F23 should work fairly well, as it produces significantly less off idle torque as your LS4.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Has anyone done a full, proper write-up of the hybrid F23 swap (taking the 2 transmissions and step by step procedures of what to do)? I agree with Guru 100% that the 3.09 F40 would be the best possible manual transmission in a Fiero with a high powered engine, but both the cost and skill level needed to do this swap is going to make this a non starter for most people.
The only F40 Fieros I have driven had this horrible rattle when the clutch was not engaged.. hopefully this is not very common. I couldn't handle driving a car with that terrible sound for very long
As the Getrags are more and more rare (even the 92-94 HTOB versions are very hard to find), it would be great to have someone properly document an F23 swap, preferrably the hybrid setup including the gearing change. This would be an enormous help to many, since the Getrag 282 has reached the end of its' shelf life, and more and more people will be breaking these transmissions with no replacement in sight...
[This message has been edited by cam-a-lot (edited 05-31-2021).]
Rattle is a common problem with the F40.. it's usually a minor annoyance but when the transmission is a few inches from your ears it's probably worse.
The F23 isn't even a slam dunk. A two or three year bell housing from a crappy car twenty years ago... Ugh. In my searching for both HTOB 282 and 2.2l F23, availability is remarkably similar.
Funny what ends up ruining the practicality of old cars....
I'm a bit late to this party, but I can offer my opinons. I own an "HTOB Getrag" sometimes (incorrectly) called a "Beretta Getrag". In reality it's really a New Venture T-550. It's essentially identical to a 282, except that it has a hydraulic release bearing, and a sturdier differential. Mine shifts... poorly, to be polite about it. The "select" function (left to right) is a real pain. But it has endured a good deal of abuse at the hand of my 4.9, and has held up remarkably well. (I still try to not shock-load it, however.) It also has the EP limited slip. I'm not sure how much that has helped the reliability. Of course, the gearing is not ideal, but it's still a complete riot to drive. I'd do a 3.09 F40, but I don't really have the skills, or that much disposable income.
OTOH, I have an F23 that is going to be bolted to an LQ1, in the not-too-distant future. Admittedly, the gearing is not ideal, but I'm hoping that the high revving nature of the LQ1 will make it a bit more palatable. I've thought about doing the bellhousing swap with the "economy" F23, but it just doesn't seem worth the trouble. I've read several of the write-ups, and there are still a bunch of unanswered questions. And I don't feel like reinventing the wheel, yet again.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-31-2021).]
Originally posted by cam-a-lot: the Getrag 282 has reached the end of its' shelf life, and more and more people will be breaking these transmissions with no replacement in sight...
The more sustainable solution to worn-out transmissions is to rebuild them, not to replace them with less worn (but still worn-out) transmissions from the junkyard.
If you have a 282, you can hoard a bunch by buying worn ones from Fiero owners who want to replace rather than rebuild. From a collection of old parts (and a sprinkling of new bearings/seals), often a good trans can be assembled... and then you have spare parts.
If people don't want to tear into the gearboxes, they're going to be stuck looking at 10-15 year old (prime age for junkyards) used parts... and it's a non-stop treadmill. As new replaces old, you have to keep moving to the newest transmission architecture.
That said, the treadmill will stop as new cars rarely have standard transmissions; eventually junkyards will have few cars with suitable donor transmissions.
I've never characterized the 282 as having bad shift quality... it's no Mjata or S2000, but it's top shelf for a cable operated shifter.
Are you using melted butter for a lubricant? How about trying the actual synchromesh fluid? The difference between ATF and synchromesh is night and day in terms of shift speed and effort.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-01-2021).]
The more sustainable solution to worn-out transmissions is to rebuild them, not to replace them with less worn (but still worn-out) transmissions from the junkyard.
If you have a 282, you can hoard a bunch by buying worn ones from Fiero owners who want to replace rather than rebuild. From a collection of old parts (and a sprinkling of new bearings/seals), often a good trans can be assembled... and then you have spare parts.
If people don't want to tear into the gearboxes, they're going to be stuck looking at 10-15 year old (prime age for junkyards) used parts... and it's a non-stop treadmill. As new replaces old, you have to keep moving to the newest transmission architecture.
That said, the treadmill will stop as new cars rarely have standard transmissions; eventually junkyards will have few cars with suitable donor transmissions.
The 282 is fairly difficult to take apart and requires a press. The F23 is easier, not requiring a press, but still not a no-brainer. The factory assembly pallets help with both of these. The F40 *IS* a no-brainer to take apart.
Originally posted by Will: I've never characterized the 282 as having bad shift quality... it's no Mjata or S2000, but it's top shelf for a cable operated shifter.
Well, my other cable-shifted transmissions have been Honda (Prelude, Accord), Saab (F40), and Ford (MTX IV, MTX75). The Prelude was in my mind the best of the bunch - you wouldn't even know it was a cable shift without looking. The MTX IV shifted very similarly to the 282. Like Oobleck... easy when shfted slowly, but the faster you go the worse it gets. I joke.... The 282 is hardly unusable, but it's definitely a more conscious effort.
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Are you using melted butter for a lubricant? How about trying the actual synchromesh fluid? The difference between ATF and synchromesh is night and day in terms of shift speed and effort.
I used whatever the car came to me with, then switched out for GM Synchromesh. I have no idea what was in there before, what I was comparing against. But I figured with two drain/refills it was fully Synchromesh'd and was as good as it was gonna be. I didn't find there to be a huge improvement there... it was better, but not good.
I'm *totally* willing to keep going with the 282 - I'm fine with the Fiero being a bit of a time piece with a clumsy shifter and a bit of a boat anchor in the back. It's still super fun to drive and great to look at. But I do like to entertain options. If there was a "give a guy $2k and have a better transmission" option I'd pull the trigger, and that's what I was hoping to learn about here.
I've never characterized the 282 as having bad shift quality... it's no Mjata or S2000, but it's top shelf for a cable operated shifter.
Are you using melted butter for a lubricant? How about trying the actual synchromesh fluid? The difference between ATF and synchromesh is night and day in terms of shift speed and effort.
I'm not claiming that my T-550 is "typical". I've had three other Getrags in several other cars that shifted better. Even the one that was ready to frag itself (which it eventually did.) This one has had a steady diet of synchromesh, as long as it's been in the car. Was rebuilt, just before that. I have no trouble getting it into any gear. None at all. It's the side-to-side (select) action that is stiff. The linkage is well lubricated, and it has a relatively new Rodney select cable. Even replaced that, once. It almost feels like they "doubled up" on the springs that pull the select mechanism back to center. I have the "medium" length shift handle. Had a shorter (84) handle on it. That was much worse. OTOH, the stock 88 handle looks like a club. Didn't much feel like using that one.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-01-2021).]
Well, the search for a 30 year old GM FWD manual transmission goes about as well as you'd think it would... poorly. I thought finding 4 cyl Ford T5s was hard. NOPE.
Watching rwdplz's *delightful* F23 youtube video, I'm thinking as much as it's gonna hurt financially maybe going hybrid F23 ain't so bad.
Given I can find a 2.2l OHV F23 and a Cobalt XFE (FY1) transmission, joining them together in holy matrimony is "only" splitting the case, reshimming the diff using tool J-44388, replacing the diff side bearings, and putting it back together. And hoping WCF can deliver the brackets & cables.
I'm thinking this is a $2200 problem... $1200-ish to WCF, $800ish in two F23s, and $200-ish in J-44388. I don't *think* I need the assembly pallet for this..
I guess one thing I am unclear on is whether the WCF brackets mount to the bell housing or the main gear case ... if the latter, does using the later XFE/FY1 gear case blow that up?
Originally posted by thesameguy: ... $200-ish in J-44388.
Unless I'm missing something, these things are all over ebay from ~$14 to ~$90. (Plus whatever shipping charges they decide to add on. The ones I've seen have not been bad.)
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I guess one thing I am unclear on is whether the WCF brackets mount to the bell housing or the main gear case ... if the latter, does using the later XFE/FY1 gear case blow that up?
I'll likely be buying brackets - for whatever configuration I decide to go with - from Roger Thelin or Fiero Rog. Unless someone can convince me that that would be a bad idea, and explain why. I'm looking forward to seeing what you end up with. Please take lots of pics.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-02-2021).]
Yeah, I've seen that tool at those prices - I'm leaving myself room in case I need others (like the pallet) or, you know, generally ebay flakiness. A quick search shows you could tool up for full F23 shenanigans for a couple hundred bucks. It's stupid for me to have a collection of such tools, but hey, I've got weirder specialized crap in the garage.
My understanding was that Thelin's adapters were only useful if combined with an Ecotec - the lateral positioning is wrong for the 60*V6? I think maybe I also read that how or where they attach doesn't work on the 2.2 bell housing. :/
I'm gonna give my 282 search a few more days but then verify one more time with WCF what timelines are. I saw cam-a-lot ordered and received his F23 stuff from them pretty quickly, so I'm hopeful.
A run-of-the-mill 3.4 L engine doesn't have much torque. I think it would benefit from the Cavalier F23's 14.1:1 starting line ratio to get the car going.
The thing about taller gearing is more for the higher-hp folks for whom 1st gear goes by too quickly for a human driver to manage.
I have a 14.5:1 starting line ratio with a 3.2 L and I think it's fine.
If I was going to get an F23, I think I would run the Cavalier ratios as-is, though I would still do a teardown of the box to make sure everything is OK before putting it into service.
Man, that has not been my experience... 200 lb ft is not really what I would consider low torque.. either way, maybe it's the narrow power band, but 1st and 2nd are already borderline useless. I would take shorter gearing if their was literally no option, but it wouldn't be my choice.
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 06-02-2021).]
My understanding was that Thelin's adapters were only useful if combined with an Ecotec - the lateral positioning is wrong for the 60*V6? I think maybe I also read that how or where they attach doesn't work on the 2.2 bell housing. :/
The thing that drives the powertrain position left to right is the axles. The F23 uses the same axles as the 282 and those dictate where the transmission ends up. The Thelin rear bracket should work fine, but only one bolt of the Thelin front bracket will be there when using the Metric bellhousing.
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Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
If I was going to get an F23, I think I would run the Cavalier ratios as-is, though I would still do a teardown of the box to make sure everything is OK before putting it into service.
The Cavalier/XFE combo (well really the XFE transmission) has almost exactly the same overall ratio set as the V6 282. The 3.4's do end up around 200 ftlbs... that's not a lot compared to anything that makes 300 ftlbs, but it's still enough to motivate a Fiero crisply.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-03-2021).]
It's a lot more torque than most 2700lb cars have! Well, until everything suddenly had a turbo.
I don't think 2700# cars have turbos even today... Hell, I'm not sure there *ARE* 2700# cars anymore.
J/K... the BRZ/FRS, Mjata & Boxster/Cayman are about it (Well... and the Alfa 4C, but it makes the 718's look cheap)... The 718's are turbo, but only the last couple of years. Of those three, only the 718 is approaching "fast".
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-04-2021).]
Eh, Ford Fiesta ST, Chevy Sonic Turbo, Fiat 500 Turbo, Mini Cooper are all all in the ballpark - 2500-2800lbs. Probably others. While none of these will make 200 lb ft, they get pretty close and have much wider power bands.
Regardless, I think the point here is that 200 lb ft in a 2700lb car makes for a responsive drive and there's no reason for that motor to be turning 3000rpm or whatever on the freeway.
and then I cleaned out the server room at home and put some of the proceeds towards
It was a very favorable deal so I grabbed the whole megillah.
I have two questions:
1. Does anyone have a part number or source for the oil seal for an F23? It's destroyed when splitting the case, so I'll need a new one. Or three. 2. Any clutch recommendations for a 60*V6 + F23? I am not looking for race clutch... as close to stock would be great for me.
But I think the only F23 worth entertaining is a hybrid, and that's gonna get me close to $2k.
I joke.... The 282 is hardly unusable, but it's definitely a more conscious effort. 
