I’m here trying to gather detailed information on a few engine swap ideas for my 1988 Pontiac fiero formula, with the Getrag 5 speed. The purpose for my car is to teach kids about automobiles, foster a love for Fieros, and to start racing this fiero at the track. Creature comforts are not mandatory for this swap, but my automotive experience in swapping engines is quite limited.
My first and #1 favorite idea for a swap is a Alfa Romeo 3.0 24v 60 degree busso v6. I want this engine for a multitude of reasons, but one is the sound and to build a naturally aspirated screamer. I’ve heard many many many good things about this engine, and from what I’ve gathered it would not be the hardest thing to swap due to the engines simplicity. Not gonna lie a fiero is like an honorary Italian sports car, so I think this Italian girl would be a good fit. What I want to know is how feasible is this swap and how would I go about doing it?
Swap idea #2 is a v6 DOHC from a Cadillac Catera. This interests me for the same reasons that the Alfa Romeo engine does except from looking at it it should be an easier swap. I don’t know much about this engine but from members of its forum, it sounds pretty competent.
My last option (witch many people have done) is a built HO quad 4 engine. This one is from what I can tell not hard and would be the easiest out of all of them.
I know everyone worships the 3800 series and what not, but I don’t particularly care for these engines for a great multitude of reasons. Please keep comments away from trying to tell me that I should swap a 3800 or anything of that nature because I simply don’t want that. I need a light engine with capabilities for lots of power and a high redline.
As I previously stated, the car is for the track, and needs to be as light as possible, while still being somewhat affordable.
First the realistic statement; if you have limited experience then follow someone else's pattern and you might complete it. Forging on your own with no experience is almost guaranteed to fail. It's similar to entrepreneurs in that some people do it and some people can (but don't) and some people try and fail. Then there are those who have to because they can't work with others for some reasons.
On the Alpha engine, this isn't from experience or knowledge but don't listen to Alpha people for credibility on the reliability and integrity of the engine. That's just brand loyalty. Is the Alpha engine also used in other platforms/brands like so many vehicles are these days (Maserati/Lamborghini for instance)? Nothing romantic about that if so. Also about any engine will work, but will you find access to half shafts and transmissions that will also fit and work? Then there's the computer to control it.
The Catera is an Opal engine, German? Should be ok but are you really gaining anything performance-wise over something else? However the German Audi 2.7tt is a well known stout engine and the Jetta trans is decent. That 2.7tt stock is good to 400 hp and redline is high. Change the rods and it's good to 500+. Start with a running one and do a timing belt service on it while it's out and you're good. That's what fails on those. 60,000 is a good standard and doing it once you'll never put 60 on a swap in your scenario. Don't get a non-runner because it's already jumped timing and damaged internals.
The Quad 4 is a great engine, and should be one of the cheapest routes. If you want performance why bother if you can get a more modern supercharged 4 or turbo 4 from a Cobalt?
K swap (Honda 2.4L). Turbo K swap. Potent, reliable, not common in Fiero. BV has spent the past couple of yrs working on one, but it should be doable in a year. The Mitsu is a good one too. The Honda engine is probably the easiest to find though.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 06-02-2019).]
On the Alpha engine, this isn't from experience or knowledge but don't listen to Alpha people for credibility on the reliability and integrity of the engine. That's just brand loyalty. Is the Alpha engine also used in other platforms/brands like so many vehicles are these days (Maserati/Lamborghini for instance)? Nothing romantic about that if so. Also about any engine will work, but will you find access to half shafts and transmissions that will also fit and work? Then there's the computer to control it.
To address that, I wanted the engine because it revs to high heaven, it’s very light for a v6 (275 ish when fully put together) aluminum heads and aluminum block, 24 valves. It breaths very well, looks awesome, sounds beautiful, and has performance to match. The engine was only used in a ALFA, and Alfa only. And it’s been proven many times to be one of their most reliable engines, and even compare to many other brands with far better reputations. Another plus is the engines power delivery and power band. The engine has also been used for many many racing series.
Anytime you pioneer an engine swap, you either need to have very good fabrication and electrical skills or deep pockets and willing to pay someone else $50 to $100 per hr to figure it out + parts.
It took me 3 years and about $8K to complete the 2nd LS4/F40 swap. I have very good fab/electrical skills and a machine shop in the garage, so most of this expense was just the parts and materials.
For any unique swap, you need to have solutions to all of these items before you start.
Cost of engine/transmission ECM - will the factory harness work in another application, can it be tuned, will you have to go with an aftermarket controller Harness - this will be custom as some parts likely won't be needed and you will have to integrate some of the Fiero wiring into it Engine/Transmission mounts - lots of test fits, mock up, and likely 2-3 attempts before you design a set of mounts that will work well Shifter cables and brackets (going FWD to RWD requires lots of changes) Hydraulic Clutch line connection (assuming the transmission uses a hydralic clutch) Axles - these will be custom made Exhaust - will need fabricated - if you use stainless and good mufflers AC - merging the Alpha compressor to the Fiero AC system will be a challenge. Solution for Gauges - many of the signals from the Alpha engine will likely not work with the Fiero gauges. Custom gauges are spendy...
Cost of engine/transmission ECM - will the factory harness work in another application, can it be tuned, will you have to go with an aftermarket controller Harness - this will be custom as some parts likely won't be needed and you will have to integrate some of the Fiero wiring into it Engine/Transmission mounts - lots of test fits, mock up, and likely 2-3 attempts before you design a set of mounts that will work well Shifter cables and brackets (going FWD to RWD requires lots of changes) Hydraulic Clutch line connection (assuming the transmission uses a hydralic clutch) Axles - these will be custom made Exhaust - will need fabricated - if you use stainless and good mufflers AC - merging the Alpha compressor to the Fiero AC system will be a challenge. Solution for Gauges - many of the signals from the Alpha engine will likely not work with the Fiero gauges. Custom gauges are spendy...
To answer the cost part, the engine is gonna be very cheap because these were also found in economy cars for a long time, and awhile back (like 2 weeks ago) I found a low mileage one for cheap with a transmission (2000$)
Thankfully I won’t need to convert it to FWD because the cars engine is from a FWD platform.
Oh did I mention though that this thing has a 6 speed. This is awesome and all, but I don’t particularly want to do any modifications to the transmission tunnel area to fit it, as often 6 speeds are larger than their lower gearing brothers.
Originally posted by TheFieroKid: To answer the cost part, the engine is gonna be very cheap because these were also found in economy cars for a long time, and awhile back (like 2 weeks ago) I found a low mileage one for cheap with a transmission (2000$)
Thankfully I won’t need to convert it to FWD because the cars engine is from a FWD platform.
Oh did I mention though that this thing has a 6 speed. This is awesome and all, but I don’t particularly want to do any modifications to the transmission tunnel area to fit it, as often 6 speeds are larger than their lower gearing brothers.
The Fiero is RWD, so you move the FWD transverse drivetrain to the rear of the Fiero, this means all the shifter cables point the wrong direction at the shifter and at the transmission.
The Alpha engine is transverse (mounted sideways in the engine bay), so nothing goes in the tranny tunnel except the Fiero gas tank.
It looks like you have a lot more research to do...
I’m here trying to gather detailed information on a few engine swap ideas for my 1988 Pontiac fiero formula, with the Getrag 5 speed. The purpose for my car is to teach kids about automobiles, foster a love for Fieros, and to start racing this fiero at the track. Creature comforts are not mandatory for this swap, but my automotive experience in swapping engines is quite limited.
My first and #1 favorite idea for a swap is a Alfa Romeo 3.0 24v 60 degree busso v6. I want this engine for a multitude of reasons, but one is the sound and to build a naturally aspirated screamer. I’ve heard many many many good things about this engine, and from what I’ve gathered it would not be the hardest thing to swap due to the engines simplicity. Not gonna lie a fiero is like an honorary Italian sports car, so I think this Italian girl would be a good fit. What I want to know is how feasible is this swap and how would I go about doing it?
Swap idea #2 is a v6 DOHC from a Cadillac Catera. This interests me for the same reasons that the Alfa Romeo engine does except from looking at it it should be an easier swap. I don’t know much about this engine but from members of its forum, it sounds pretty competent.
My last option (witch many people have done) is a built HO quad 4 engine. This one is from what I can tell not hard and would be the easiest out of all of them.
I know everyone worships the 3800 series and what not, but I don’t particularly care for these engines for a great multitude of reasons. Please keep comments away from trying to tell me that I should swap a 3800 or anything of that nature because I simply don’t want that. I need a light engine with capabilities for lots of power and a high redline.
As I previously stated, the car is for the track, and needs to be as light as possible, while still being somewhat affordable.
It is evident that your statement about limited experience is correct. Before starting a swap with any engine, you should first understand that custom fabrication is required. If you don't weld and don't have a basic understanding of engineering, you are asking for trouble. Doing what others have already done removes some of the r&d that is required, but there is a reason why cars require so much testing to get right. Do yourself a favor and do a simple swap first. Something that bolts up to the transmission and mounts easily would be a good first swap.
It is evident that your statement about limited experience is correct. Before starting a swap with any engine, you should first understand that custom fabrication is required. If you don't weld and don't have a basic understanding of engineering, you are asking for trouble. Doing what others have already done removes some of the r&d that is required, but there is a reason why cars require so much testing to get right. Do yourself a favor and do a simple swap first. Something that bolts up to the transmission and mounts easily would be a good first swap.
Not to mention that today's powertrains use DOD,VVT, DI, traction control, have a VATS system and are drive by wire. All of those must be addressed for things to run correctly. Point is that a successful stand alone engine swap application be quite complex. Choosing a powertrain where an aftermarket "plug and play" harness with a reprogrammed computer is available, would be a good starting point. Successful swaps have been completed with Ecotecs, (early version), 3.4TDC, 3800, 4.9L, SBC, Quad Four and a couple of LFX installs are underway. Info is available on how to complete these swaps so trying to "re-invent the wheel" may not be the best idea
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Did you make any decisions on drive train? I know we were negative about your leanings. On that Alpha engine, not even being familiar with it (because of the Italian maintenance reputation issues of other makes) it does look like a nice engine with good sound. Having been produced for such a long run there might be some reasonable computer controls. It's the rest of the issues that would be trail forging. Looks like there have been swaps into kit cars.
Some people I knew told me I couldn't do something once so I went and practiced, joined other groups and eventually eclipsed any of their success by a pretty fair amount.
