Considering replacing the bulbs behind the instrument panel with direct plug in 5W 192/168/194 LED bulbs. You can buy these on eBay for about 25 cents each. I have used these "cluster" bulbs in my homes 12V landscape lighting and they do burn bright. Just wondering if they will prove to be too bright, too power hungry or too long for to fit behind the panel? . The other concern is that LEDs dim differently than bulbs so losing control over brightness is a concern. Anyone here try them? Comments? How about using them behind the Pontiac name on the GT tail lights?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I don't have direct experience trying this in a car, but since you asked for comments . . . .
Utilizing a direct replacement that is safe and brighter will be the easy part. Finding one that dims (as you mention) will be a challenge. Even at home where the market is much bigger, getting LEDs matched up with the proper dimmer and dimming correctly without buzzing is a challenge sometimes.
Hopefully, someone has worked out the bugs and found bulbs that are hassle free for our cars . . . and will speak up here.
From my experiences with the all my cars that I have switched out for LED bulbs, none of them dim like a regular incandescent bulbs. I however already knew that going into it and still rather like the LED bulbs better because of the color i want and light output. In the Fiero the LED dim some, just enough for me but the best part is these bulbs are not blazing hot like the old ones where. No more burning or possible burning.
You would have to measure and recalculate the dimmer. The original basically lowers the voltage on the bulbs. Which doesn't work that well with LEDs since they are equipped with resistors on board and the get brighter with more current - so yeah you would have to make some mods to the dimmer circuit. It can be done though.
I have a set of green LEDs in my Fiero's instrument panel. The panel came from a Buick LeSabre, but uses the same type of bulb as the Fiero. And I'm still using the Fiero dimmer switch.
I noticed that the LEDs react oddly to adjustments in the dimmer switch. The LEDs kind of "shimmer" when the dimmer is being adjusted. The shimmer stops after you stop adjusting the dimmer. Also, the dimming effect isn't linear. The light intensity drops off quickly at first, then evens out. I think that if the dimmer were modified to adjust current rather than voltage (as mentioned above), it would work better.
Another problem I ran into was light distribution. The incandescent bulbs shine in all directions, whereas the LEDs have a beam pattern. I had to make some alterations to the gauge panel and to the LEDs themselves to get a more even light distribution. This involved scuffing up the lenses on the LED bulbs with sandpaper, and coating the interior of the gauge panel with bright white paint. Even after that, I still had a couple dim spots. So I had to get a couple "360-degree" LED bulbs to install there. The 360-degree bulbs that I used don't fit through the hole for the light bulb. So I had to remove the face plate from the gauge panel, and install those bulbs from the front side.
I'm not sure if that will be a problem with the Fiero gauge panel. But I wouldn't be surprised.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-14-2017).]
Resistive dimmers may work, but aren't the best for LEDs. PWM dimmers (specifically for LEDs) are really cheap online. They typically use a resistive input to determine the brightness and then modify the current of the output accordingly. This works really well when you have a number of LEDs in parallel and in series.
This and dash light problems has been covered before many times now. Use search. People have tried many kinds w/ the dash and are a crap shoot at best when they work or not.
LED's for PnP LV normal or halogen landscape lighting often have: rectifiers and maybe small caps (all surface mounted) to handle AC power. High "Color temp" white light.
Both can cause problems dimming. > 4500°K cause color shifting etc problems and may not behave as expected. GM dimming circuit in Fiero and most others doesn't play well w/ most LED as it is.
6 194 bulbs is the dash draw ~1.5 amps, 3.78w each, @ full power. A lot less for most drivers that dim OE setup. Dim lights @ full power means something is wrong, likely more than one thing.
I've fixed several issues over the years but never had any car needed bright dash bulbs. I never had any car w/ dimmer above ~50% bright. Most problems now are many cars you can't dim the dash enough and worse have LCD backlights that flood your eyes w/ light every time there on. Cabin light pollution is often bad or worse then getting flash w/ high beams and bad light from other cars. Big problem driving outside of city because you can't see outside and hit things and never find out what until after, like dead kid walking along the roadway.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Other than for color change reasons, the only cars I've ever needed to change to get brighter more readable gauges are older 70s cars with front lit gauges. Most of them just have poor reflection or shrouding in their clusters and not enough bulbs in the right places. My Camaro and my Mustang are both converted and are much easier to see. No need to do this in my Fiero, all is working fine and I can see them just fine at night. Personally I think the colour scheme is harder to see than a white on black with white light, but it does look cooler
I posted this a while ago. I did have good success with the right LED lights, details in the post. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/139186.html I can now see my instruments clearly at night. Yes officer, I know how fast I was going. I made my instruments brighter.
Originally posted by wgpierce: Other than for color change reasons, the only cars I've ever needed to change to get brighter more readable gauges are older 70s cars with front lit gauges. Most of them just have poor reflection or shrouding in their clusters and not enough bulbs in the right places. My Camaro and my Mustang are both converted and are much easier to see. No need to do this in my Fiero, all is working fine and I can see them just fine at night. Personally I think the colour scheme is harder to see than a white on black with white light, but it does look cooler
I had to fix 60-80 Fords and other dashes and statement doesn't standup. You have similar problems as Fiero cover in my cave and here but dimmer is just a very simple rheostat built into HL switch for most of them. Examples: Many replace bulbs but never replace iffy socket(s) etc so bulb(s) still dim or dead. Many old cars have dashes that are very dirty inside and won't bounce light.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 02-15-2017).]
A few years back I replaced all the existing bulbs in my instrument cluster in my 86 GT. I used different color LEDs depending on it's purpose or function. For some of the LEDs I purchased dimmable LEDs which come a greater cost than standard LEDs. To date, I have had not issues with the LEDs, lighting or operation of the instrument cluster.
I dont have any experience with them in a car, however I do have some I use in the porch lites on my RVs. They work fine, but there is no dimmer. I have tried LED lights in some places at my houses, mainly replacing the outdoor flood lights. They are on dusk-to-dawn sensors...come on dim then brighten as it gets darker. Even at $15-$25 each theyve never lasted more than a couple of days. They also were more 'spot' lights than wide angle flood lights. So rather than spend $1,000 a month for bulbs, I went back to the old fashioned wide angle $5.00 ones that work for years.
I have some #555 cool whites I bought from here (I bought a bunch for my machines), http://www.pinballbulbs.com/clear555 in the 88 and have no real issues - they will dim some what - but I really don't care since I leave my gauges on bright all the time.
They are a fair bit brighter then OEM bulbs. Not sure how long they will last though being that they are only 6.3v.
I did try some reds, but didn't like the look. Haven't tried any of the colors either yet.
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 02-15-2017).]
I had LEDs in my Fiero. They were the dirt cheap eBay lights and they worked great. They even dimmed just like incendisintencandescentincandeskant regular bulbs. Worked great but a couple of them burned out so I removed them. I couldn't remember who I bought them from and didn't want mismatched bulbs.
I understand what Ogre is saying. (That's a lie. I have no idea what he's saying but I'm sure it's all correct. He's a pretty smart guy.) I'm just stating what my experience was.
In my opinion the Fiero front lit gauges have the worst lighting of any gauges in existense.
Granted I've never seen what they looked like new from the factory, but some 30 years later they all are crap. I've read the cave article numerous times and I don't know that a definitive solution has ever been found. Multiple issues can lead to dim gauges. And even if you replace everything they are still dim by today's standards. I'm still searching for a definitive solution, but haven't found it.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wgpierce: Other than for color change reasons, the only cars I've ever needed to change to get brighter more readable gauges are older 70s cars with front lit gauges. Most of them just have poor reflection or shrouding in their clusters and not enough bulbs in the right places. My Camaro and my Mustang are both converted and are much easier to see. No need to do this in my Fiero, all is working fine and I can see them just fine at night. Personally I think the colour scheme is harder to see than a white on black with white light, but it does look cooler
I had to fix 60-80 Fords and other dashes and statement doesn't standup. You have similar problems as Fiero cover in my cave and here but dimmer is just a very simple rheostat built into HL switch for most of them. Examples: Many replace bulbs but never replace iffy socket(s) etc so bulb(s) still dim or dead. Many old cars have dashes that are very dirty inside and won't bounce light.
[/QUOTE],
Not my cars mate Brand new inside, I don't have electrical problems either. Try a 73 Ford Mustang with green plastic things covering the lights to make them look green. Total rubbish. Try 70 Camaro. Really similar cluster to a Fiero, but very poor placement of the bulbs. But maybe the rest of them are great. I
Originally posted by rogergarrison: I dont have any experience with them in a car, however I do have some I use in the porch lites on my RVs. They work fine, but there is no dimmer. I have tried LED lights in some places at my houses, mainly replacing the outdoor flood lights. They are on dusk-to-dawn sensors...come on dim then brighten as it gets darker. Even at $15-$25 each theyve never lasted more than a couple of days. They also were more 'spot' lights than wide angle flood lights. So rather than spend $1,000 a month for bulbs, I went back to the old fashioned wide angle $5.00 ones that work for years.
Most light/motion sensors made for normal bulbs have big problem used w/ CFL and LED lights. Some Units may say OK for CFL but still won't work w/ LED.
Part of problem is many do not turn off fully. The bulb might look off but still has power thru it because is a "ground" for whatever sensor. Example: I have motion detect wall switch that work on normal and CFL but keeps enough power flow when "off" to glow a Cree LED bulb. While Cree and others can dim, Many LED for home use still hates dimming and will have a very short life when use w/ dimmers and sensors.
Note that many CFL and LED hate enclosed fixtures and won't last long. Some type A19 Cree LED bulbs sold thru HD are rated for enclose fixtures but most CFL and LED will fry the "ballast" built into them if not LED themselves. (type A/A19 is a standard bulb glass shape for 20-100w bulb.)
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Originally posted by Monkeyman: I had LEDs in my Fiero. They were the dirt cheap eBay lights and they worked great. They even dimmed just like incendisintencandescentincandeskant regular bulbs. Worked great but a couple of them burned out so I removed them. I couldn't remember who I bought them from and didn't want mismatched bulbs.
I understand what Ogre is saying. (That's a lie. I have no idea what he's saying but I'm sure it's all correct. He's a pretty smart guy.) I'm just stating what my experience was.
Many as PnP for normal bulbs for car use have same problems as A19 above... Heat will shorten the lifetime and a lot most times. Most electronic will fail fast when run or store a high temp. For most chips 160-170°F max run temp and 180-200°F max storage temp. (These values are often "junction temperatures" means the temp in/on the chip itself not the case etc.) Other parts often have much lower run and storage temps like 120°F max for many capacitors.
Example: In a car... You heat the dash etc parked in the sun to 160-200°F easy even on cool days then add LED generate more heat that must be removed and can't and quick overheat and die soon. LED in a enclose space like many taillights and marker lights may not have enough air to remove heat made by LED and worse space get warm to hot from engine or weather. So LED might say have 20000+ hours but most won't last more then a year or two of driving. Often less than a normal bulb.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 02-15-2017).]
Originally posted by Patrick: Ah... that might explain why I've noticed the rear license plate LEDs burning out after two or three years.
Yes and many are just made to be crap w/ very cheap LED etc. Many can fail from vibration, RoHS solders cracking, etc. (RoHS is lead free solders and have many problems. Many can crack when expose big range thermal cycling. Example: Solder problems are suspect w/ Red Ring of Death for MS and many dead PS for Sony a few years ago.)
YT bigclivedotcom and others has many examples of cheap China made LED for 120-220 VAC use. Small to Mini bulbs have many of same problems minus won't kill you running w/ 12v.
The red LEDs in my dash work great (only a few months so far). They dim well too. And are a big improvement over the original. See my link above, you want the ones that direct light vertically away from the socket (all chips on the flat face). And 12V. I fully agree on RoHS issues, plus it is just the lower class of QA (class 1) soldering that is just super cheap.
A lot of car manufacturers went to red lit or red backlit for a reason. Red is almost always used in planes. The reason is for better night vision out the windows. Your eye has to adjust less from the red to outside darkness, than from lighter and brighter colors. That few seconds more could allow you to miss seeing something in the road. My planes had a switchable red/white interior dome and post lights even.
Stock for the gauges is the 194 bulb, right? If you want to stick with incandescent bulbs (to avoid hassles) but want brighter, what is an acceptable alternative?
[This message has been edited by USMUCL (edited 02-16-2017).]
People claiming LED fix whatever problem mean very little. "Yellow" 194 bulbs, ever new ones, are 1 or more problems w/ the dimmer, wiring including power and grounds anywhere in the car, and/or dash itself. Examples: I've spent a day at least just to clean/repair grounds. Most grounds need work after 30 years of use and G10x and G20x fairly hard to get at them because have to pull console, open HL lifts, work in small spaces, etc. If a HL area ground (G101 and G102) has strip a screw then very likely have to pull whole HL assem to drill a new hole in sheet metal. I torn apart the dirt dash to clean the contacts and interior of dash. That helps tach/gauge problems and brighten up light output because dash back inside is white now not gray.
I've tried several types of LED in the dash and went back to 194 long life bulbs. "Daylight" etc white is too bright or cause color shift even when dimming. All had problems just to dim. LED can shut off way before bulbs shut off. (Watch w/ a Volt meter to make sure LED gets power etc.) Many are very picky and dim to bright change is a very narrow range of the wheel. One set have problems to dim and just shut off intermittently try to dim. Not all go dark at same time either... one dark, rotate wheel at tiny bit the dark is lit but another or two go dark. Put in 194 bulbs and smoothly full bright to dim and back is no problem.
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Originally posted by rogergarrison: A lot of car manufacturers went to red lit or red backlit for a reason. Red is almost always used in planes. The reason is for better night vision out the windows. Your eye has to adjust less from the red to outside darkness, than from lighter and brighter colors. That few seconds more could allow you to miss seeing something in the road. My planes had a switchable red/white interior dome and post lights even.
Many that does stage work have Red gels on flash light too for similar reasons. Plus red light leaking pass curtains etc is much less obvious to the audience.
A lot of car manufacturers went to red lit or red backlit for a reason. Red is almost always used in planes. The reason is for better night vision out the windows. Your eye has to adjust less from the red to outside darkness, than from lighter and brighter colors. That few seconds more could allow you to miss seeing something in the road. My planes had a switchable red/white interior dome and post lights even.
I agree with the reasons behind the red, but you would be hard pressed to find all red in new vehicles now days. Most are now LCD driven gauges and are usually white with a blue hue to them (or other colors).
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: I agree with the reasons behind the red, but you would be hard pressed to find all red in new vehicles now days. Most are now LCD driven gauges and are usually white with a blue hue to them (or other colors).
And Problem is as posted above... Many won't dim enough etc.
Any complains and GM et al say we meet all rules etc but Dash Color etc isn't reg by NHTSA via FMVSS that I can find and car co's often use whatever fad at the time or just whatever interior designer said and never bothered w/ any problems cause by crap dash and "media displays." New dashes may look "cool" and other BS terms but many are crap when drive at night.
IIHS have post problems w/ new car and truck HL last year. Very Likely Many barely meets FMVSS 108 in the US and other rules worldwide for HL setups. But IIHS and other Insurance groups/companies just started to complain about current dash designs etc. Beside color etc used to make a "dash board" Air force and others have shown that overloading pilots w/ data can cause many problems and even kill people but Car makers completely ignore anything like this. Worse unlike Pilots regulate by ___.mil and FAA, anyone can get a drivers license w/ bare minimum or no training and can't handle basic driving even w/o GPS and others things that need attention. (to start reading... Google: pilot data overloading First 4 hits are dtic.mil, NASA and 2 @ FAA)
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 02-16-2017).]
The only reason that I chose red on mine is that it is close to the orange reflector paint. Orange is a much harder color to get. A good experiment would be to repaint the back face of the panel with another color, say white or blue, and see what a different color does in it. But then it would not match the radio & HVAC..
And on the alternative to the 194 incandescent in a brighter bulb, you will make more heat. And heat is one of the reasons that the sockets are not quite right now anyhow. The LEDs run substantially cooler than incandescent.
I replaced all of my dash bulbs with red LEDs and it looks amazing. Much brighter, bulbs dim just like the originals, the dash is much more "red" than orange (but that is what I was looking for).
The illumination in my Fiero is now VERY close to the illumination in my 2006 Pontiac Torrent. Bright, crisp, clear - easy to read, and much more "modern" looking.
I replaced all of my dash bulbs with red LEDs and it looks amazing. Much brighter, bulbs dim just like the originals, the dash is much more "red" than orange (but that is what I was looking for).
The illumination in my Fiero is now VERY close to the illumination in my 2006 Pontiac Torrent. Bright, crisp, clear - easy to read, and much more "modern" looking.
Originally posted by USMUCL: Tim, just to be clear, you're saying these LEDs dim smoothly, consistently, and reliably just like the original 194 incandescents?
That has been my experience, yes. I installed the LEDs just last summer, so I can't comment on longevity , but I am very happy with the results so far.
I didn't think to take a "before" picture, but I can certainly try to get a decent picture of my dash illumination sometime this weekend.
I buy blue LED bulbs (it's more of a bluish-white) for interior lighting and for over the rear license plate. Can't beat the price Here... 20 bulbs for less than six bucks, with free shipping!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-17-2017).]
I believe that price is for 6 bulbs and 6 bases. They can also be had in a group of 10 for 9.59.
Tim -- when used in the gauge clusters, is there is big color or brightness difference than the HVAC lights or the Pontiac radio lights?
I got 6 for $6.99, so I ordered 2 sets, enough to do the dash and spares.
I also installed brighter LEDs (don't remember if there are 1 or 2 or what size they were, but I had some around and I had my dash apart anyways) in the HVAC controls, but it didn't make much (if any) difference. And I have an aftermarket stereo, so I can't compare. But yes, the gauges are brighter than the HVAC (and I assume the stock radio) but not enough to look "odd". Color difference is minimal, again not enough to look bad (in my opinion).
I will try to get some pics posted, hopefully they will come out decently so you can see what I mean.
[This message has been edited by trivet (edited 02-17-2017).]
And a link to the LEDs you put in the HVAC, however ineffective, would be appreciated. As has been discussed here, finding LEDs that dim properly can be hit-or-miss, so emulating a success story seems to be the most painless way to go.
Originally posted by Patrick: Product Description - This is for 4 Pack PC168, PC194 miniature Instrument led light bulb.
Most times, PCxxx just means whatever bulb plus base/socket in one package. And when bulb dies can most often reuse the base. Most LED I've seen are same thing.
Bulb makers sell PCxxx to save time and often money when people have blown a bulb with a iffy socket too. 2 PC194 is same or close to the $ for 2 plain 194 then add more $ for sockets, maybe thru Dorman's Help! that cost as much as plain bulbs.
I didn't read all of the responses, so on with my opinion...
I replaced mine with LED from Black Top Racing (can't remember if this is the new name or old name. lol). I figure that they know the Fiero and I didn't want to buy some half-ass mistake and he got me purple bulbs.
They are bright to really bright. The only negative is that if you try to dim them too far, they basically just go out. As long as you aren't trying to run them really dim, no worries.
