I bought a red Fiero that needs paint. Since I'm not crazy about red I want to make it blue. I've already started sanding it, but it's clear there are places sand paper just won't go. That led me to wondering how much I should take the car apart to paint it properly, and what kind of hassle/risk that will be?
Some people use rustoleum in a rattle can and are perfectly happy with the results. You set the standards on your own car. You can remove every body panel except the top without much trouble.
Depends on how much masking you want to do and how comfortable you are with painting at weird angles or in tight spaces. It's easier to paint the parts when they are on sawhorses or suspended in such a way to make access to the entire painting surface easier. That said, with enough masking you can do a panel on paint job. I'd still recommend pulling the front nose off and painting it separately because of the overlap at the front end of the fender, but you don't have to take it off. I say take it off so if it shifts around a little you don't end up with a red strip of the old color showing.
As Gall said removing all the body panels easily except for the windscreen surround piece. It is held on with a butyle rubber rope that takes time and heat to get off. You can get a very good paint job while leaving the surround on and removing all the rest
Joe Sokol
------------------ 85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II 88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby) www.fieroking.com
I left the roof and rear clip on when I did mine recently. To remove the rear clip you are into removing the headliner etc and I felt it was just not worth the extra effort. I pulled all the other bodywork parts though to paint. Worked out fine.
------------------ Anything I might say is probably worth what you paid for it, so treat it accordingly!
is your car painted same color throughout? meaning inside door jams under hood and trunk ( boot, bonnet lol ) mine is black only the exterior is red which is being changed to Atomic green im not a fan of red either. im not removing any panels if i dont have to . might take the headlight covers off .
For 50 years, ive almost always painted a car pretty much together. A few reasons are for me its faster, color always matches all over, and takes up less space. My belief for one thing is if you cant see it ever, why bother to paint it. For example, no one is ever going to see the inside of the doors. I can get into almost any nook and cranny to do jams. What I cant get a gun in, I can use a touch up gun or airbrush. Ive done many award winning show paint jobs. Im also very good at masking. When I do a repaint job thats all apart, it nearly doubles material cost...lots is blown away as overspray and waste. I also charge double for the labor. It takes 2 times the area to paint as together. Customer pays for 2 stalls because I could get another job there. With all the glamor colors out there now like 3-4 stage, candies and pearls, you usually cannot get a match on adjoining panels if its not painted assembled. Solid or regular colors dont have that problem though. What it really boils down to, is if you WANT to take it apart and have to put it back together, and if you can live with the insides of parts you never see left unpainted. Also remember, its very easy to damage fresh paint when your trying to reassemble it...and you can end up repainting it again...on the car anyway.
is your car painted same color throughout? meaning inside door jams under hood and trunk ( boot, bonnet lol ) mine is black only the exterior is red which is being changed to Atomic green im not a fan of red either. im not removing any panels if i dont have to . might take the headlight covers off .
All FIero's are black in the boot, bonnet and doors because all space frames were coated that color at the factory. Only the body panels are painted. If you see a Fiero with a painted door way, boot or bonnet it's been done by someone at some point.
All FIero's are black in the boot, bonnet and doors because all space frames were coated that color at the factory. Only the body panels are painted. If you see a Fiero with a painted door way, boot or bonnet it's been done by someone at some point.
Is it true pontiac painted the panels before assembly onto the frame.?
I'm taking it down to the frame from the glass down. That means roof and fastback will stay, but I'm taking off the doors, hood, decklid, bumpers, and fenders. Those fasteners are BRITTLE and I've broken 75% of them, not to mention the rivets I've had to remove. Think TFS will put together an "all body fastener" package for me?
For 50 years, ive almost always painted a car pretty much together. A few reasons are for me its faster, color always matches all over, and takes up less space. My belief for one thing is if you cant see it ever, why bother to paint it. For example, no one is ever going to see the inside of the doors. I can get into almost any nook and cranny to do jams. What I cant get a gun in, I can use a touch up gun or airbrush. Ive done many award winning show paint jobs. Im also very good at masking. When I do a repaint job thats all apart, it nearly doubles material cost...lots is blown away as overspray and waste. I also charge double for the labor. It takes 2 times the area to paint as together. Customer pays for 2 stalls because I could get another job there. With all the glamor colors out there now like 3-4 stage, candies and pearls, you usually cannot get a match on adjoining panels if its not painted assembled. Solid or regular colors dont have that problem though. What it really boils down to, is if you WANT to take it apart and have to put it back together, and if you can live with the insides of parts you never see left unpainted. Also remember, its very easy to damage fresh paint when your trying to reassemble it...and you can end up repainting it again...on the car anyway.
RG. I need to redo the hood, roof, and deck lid because of sunburn. Its been over 5 yes since I hung out in paint shops and they were doing a lot of satin colors. It don't want to change the color or repaint the sides and nose but I was wondering do they make a satin clear?
I try to always take off all the panels except the two roof pieces. You get a lot better job, & it allows you to paint from all angles (especially helpful on the front bumper cover so you can shoot the holes from the back for best coverage). I've never had any problem with the panels matching, even with 3 stage pearls & custom colors. You do need to hang the parts like they hang on the car (door panels, fenders, 1/4 panels) so that the paint settles the same on all the parts. You also get less dust in the paint when they're off the car. You can't paint the corners (like fenders under the hood, etc.) very well with everything on the car. I've been doing show quality paint jobs for over 45 years. Only time I paint a car all together is when I'm doing custom graphics that have to match up on adjoining parts, or true candy (which I don't recommend for a street driven car 'cause you can't do spot repair if it gets damaged). ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Removing all of the panels might make for a better job BUT you risk the chance of scratching them when they are re-installed. I'd rather remove the moldings, the headlight doors and mask everything else. As pointed out the door jambs are not painted. If you remove the trim moldings be prepared to buy all new fasteners as they always seem to break when being compressed during removal.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I'm taking it down to the frame from the glass down. That means roof and fastback will stay, but I'm taking off the doors, hood, decklid, bumpers, and fenders. Those fasteners are BRITTLE and I've broken 75% of them, not to mention the rivets I've had to remove. Think TFS will put together an "all body fastener" package for me?
Yes, TFS has everything for panels being re-installed. That's the route I will do once I have my 88GT painted.
I used to be able to get flat and satin clear. But everyone I get paint from says they stopped it because the flattening agent that was added discolored the clear it was mixed into. Now I just paint flat or satin black with a single stage acrylic enamel that Sherwin Williams sells. I just did a Mustang last week with flat black bumpers and hood. Some other brands may still have it. So far, SW, BASF, R&M (brands I use) dont. You do have to put it on over catalyzed primer (crossing my fingers on that, I hate 2 part primer because it usually bites me).
I used to be able to get flat and satin clear. But everyone I get paint from says they stopped it because the flattening agent that was added discolored the clear it was mixed into. Now I just paint flat or satin black with a single stage acrylic enamel that Sherwin Williams sells. I just did a Mustang last week with flat black bumpers and hood. Some other brands may still have it. So far, SW, BASF, R&M (brands I use) dont. You do have to put it on over catalyzed primer (crossing my fingers on that, I hate 2 part primer because it usually bites me).
Thanks RG. It's always pays to know a good paint man. I will scratch that idea off the list.
Body panels on off, this pretty much depends on your time line, skill level, or how much more it will cost if you are taking it somewhere to have it done.
Personally, and a LOT of people will disagree here, I do not think it is necessary to take the panels off. Probably 99% of cars are painted with the panels on, so just because you can somewhat easily take the panels off of a Fiero, does not mean that you have to or should. If you are careful, and prep the car correctly, I just do not think it is necessary.
That said, even with panel on, I did not want the tape lines that you see all over many cars that are painted. The front windshield is a prime example. It is virtually impossible to paint a car with the front window in, without either getting paint on the rubber molding, or tape marks around the gasket on the A pillars or roof, or both in some cases. This is one of the quickest places to look and determine if a car has been repainted. Not to say that it is impossible to paint with the window in, and not be able to tell, but certainly most of the time you can easily tell.
All of that said I did a lot of stuff to prepare, and not leave tape lines or the possibility of over-spray onto other parts. (My car is an 86 GT, so some things below will not apply to a notchie)
For prep, I Removed: All belt-line moldings and side marker lights rear reflector inserts tail lights exhaust shields (Above tail pipes on bottom of bumper) license plate lights front parking lights Headlight doors, take off and painted separately (So paint gets full coverage around the doors, and inside the hood openings) rain guards / drip rails Gas filler door, (door and insert) Spoiler (Due to black rubber gaskets) side mirrors (Due to black rubber gaskets) Sunroof tracks, The the area cleaned, prepped and sanded (If you have one) Holley intake scoop (if you have one, I have custom side scoops) trunk gasket tail light screw caps / covers Radio antennae Moldings around each of the insides of the quarter windows Wheel Well shrouds, these cover up all 4 inner wheel fender lips that need to be body color. If you need to change the quarter windows, this would be the time to take them off / replace them, and clean up the area for new paint I had my front window replaced as it was de-laminating, so I had it removed, car painted, then new glass installed after car was painted. Trim pieces (Screw / rivet covers) on the rocker panels inside the doors
Lastly, you will probably want to at least remove the hood. The tops of the fenders are body color, and extend under the hood. Just opening the hood, hides part of it behind the front bumper.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-26-2015).]
Fieros, I generally take the tail lights out, rack/wing off, and headlite covers out. Maybe mirrors depending on what color theyre going to be. On windshields, I like the non oem molding that overlays the edge of the roof. If its already got that, I just put a strand of insulated wire like 12 gauge under it all the way around the sides and top that will prop up the molding so you can paint under it. Just pull out the wire when its dry. If you have the oem glass and molding, then is a good time to replace the windshield and use the newer molding thats put on the glass before its glued in. On the door, hood and trunk openings, I mask it off and hit it with a coat of paint and close it to paint the outside. Factories mostly dont clear the jams or edges and are left dull basecoat. If you want to clear them for your taste, just open them and spray a coat of clear, shut them back and paint the car.
Originally posted by rogergarrison: On windshields, I like the non oem molding that overlays the edge of the roof. If its already got that, I just put a strand of insulated wire like 12 gauge under it all the way around the sides and top that will prop up the molding so you can paint under it. Just pull out the wire when its dry. Maybe mirrors depending on what color theyre going to be.
That is genius with the 12ga wire! I never would have thought of that. I love learning little tips and tricks like that.
As for the mirrors, I would still remove them, being they are just 2 bolts and takes just a few minutes. The gaskets around the mirrors are just another thing that can leave tape lines. It also prevents you from getting black over spray on the car when painting the mirrors themselves. Besides that, the gaskets are 30 years old, and pretty hard, dried out rubber. You can get new ones from the Fiero store to put on the car when its done being painted. When you freshly paint a car, it's the little things like molding, stickers, lenses, faded wiper arms, ect that that can really detract from looking factory again.
One last tip, while you have the wheel well liners out, scrub em up and paint them. I did mine with bed liner and they look great!
My plan is it prime and block the car myself, then have a pro shoot it with base and clear. Right now I have all the panels off aside from the roof and fastback. What I'm thinking is prime everything off the car, shoot the hard to reach spots with a can of "touch up" paint it the color I'm going to use, then put the car back together for the final paint? How does that sound for a plan?
NO. Spray can paint usually is not compatible with real auto paint. The basecoat/clearcoat can 'raise' it where it wrinkles up like stripper. The only way to get away with it is if the spray can is LACQUER. You need to mask off the edges a few inches away on the outside so none of the overspray on your trimming is on the outside.
Any suggestion as to where I can get proper lacquer paint? Spray can or gun, it doesn't really matter, I can do both. Color code is 24U, Impulse Blue Metallic-- matches the 2004-2006 GTO.
Body panels on off, this pretty much depends on your time line, skill level, or how much more it will cost if you are taking it somewhere to have it done.
Personally, and a LOT of people will disagree here, I do not think it is necessary to take the panels off. Probably 99% of cars are painted with the panels on, so just because you can somewhat easily take the panels off of a Fiero, does not mean that you have to or should. If you are careful, and prep the car correctly, I just do not think it is necessary.
I'm with you in the 1%. Just because you can remove the panels on a Fiero does not mean you should. A Fiero is one of the easiest cars in the world to change colors because they didn't paint any of the door jambs or under the hood or decklid or under the door panels or a lot of other places that are painted on most cars. Like Roger says if you can't see it why bother painting it, especially when it wasn't painted in the first place.
When I had my Indy repainted (same color), I removed everything - the moldings, ground effects, mirrors, fuel filler, roof scoops and wing (painted off the car) and removed the 1/4 windows, rear trim and moldings around the windshield and sunroof. That only took me 1 day.
The shop then took out the headlight covers, removed the fascias and whatever to make their masking/painting job easier. They did an excellent job. I had NO overspray anywhere (not even fender bolts) - something I had insisted on when they got the job.
Some high end cars like Aston Martin and Bentley paint the body assembled, then take it back apart to finish building it. Its mostly to ensure the color is uniform.
I'm with you in the 1%. Just because you can remove the panels on a Fiero does not mean you should. A Fiero is one of the easiest cars in the world to change colors because they didn't paint any of the door jambs or under the hood or decklid or under the door panels or a lot of other places that are painted on most cars. Like Roger says if you can't see it why bother painting it, especially when it wasn't painted in the first place.
The thing is, you have to tape up EVERYTHING if you want to shoot all of the body panels (for example the back edge of the door skins). You also have to tape up the entire hole where you open the doors - because as Roger puts it I'm REALLY ANAL about getting overspray in the interior. Then of course you have to open the doors, hood, & trunk to shoot the jambs (however small they may be), & if you've pulled the door handles that's very difficult to do on wet paint without screwing it up. The Fiero door handles are next to impossible to tape up so they'll still open the doors & then be able shoot around them. Then there's sanding & buffing. It's a lot easier to do that on saw horses than on the sides of the car. I agree 99.9999% of the shops don't give a crap about things like that, & 95% of people don't know the difference. But to me it's just easier - especially on a Fiero - to take it apart & you get a much better job. Putting everything back together is easy enough - again especially on a Fiero. If I have a heavy piece to hang (like metal hoods & doors on other cars), I just tape a towel to the adjacent panels so I don't scratch them. It's all just a question of how good a job you want, & if you're willing to spend a little extra time to do it right. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
You tape up the door openings with tape and plastic film. You also put plastic film over the trunk and engine bay, stuffing it down all around the edges. You wont get a spec of overspray where you dont want it. Also helps if you have a good HVLP gun. Mine shoots paint at 8pnds pressure for all over jobs. I can do an all over paint job with barely a haze in the shop. Just make sure you use film made for automotive paint work. If you use any other stuff like you buy at Walmart, dried paint will flake off and blow into your wet paint. I buy it in rolls from my paint store. I mostly did high end cars with very expensive leather interiors and couldnt afford to have any overspray get in.
I find that it helps if you start with a black car.
I removed my (non aero) rocker panels and wheel well liners. Left them at home. I removed the gas door and pocket, and headlight doors. I removed the mirrors and the rear window frames and engine grills. I also had a set of Fiero Warehouse scoops that I left uninstalled. (I removed the original lower rear quarters.) I removed all of the beltline molding. Even though I wanted everything painted body color, I figured that this would give me the best paint job, and not make things too difficult for the painter. There were a lot of small loose parts, but not a lot of stuff to tape or mask. I removed the passenger seat since I was also re-doing the interior. All the loose parts were loaded into boxes or piled in the passenger floor, with the request that they be painted body color, too.
I was happy with the job that I got.
------------------ Raydar 88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550 Praise the Lowered!
Id never buff panels off a car. My big buffer would throw the panels across the room. I wont buff any parts with a buffer that are not attached to the car. I know because Ive tried it in the past. I might do a hood if it was heavy enough to stay put., but i fasten them down with wood stops or straps. You dont need to buff out jams, just put it on wet enough and leave them alone.
Originally posted by Napoleon_Tanerite: My plan is it prime and block the car myself, then have a pro shoot it with base and clear ...
Perhaps things have changed but in the past when I've presented that plan to the pros who would do the final and clear coats they said there would be no warranty, reason being they would lose control of the quality and materials that their paint would have to adhere perfectly to. Roger, is that a concern for just back in the day?
I found my lacquer paint-- looks like O'Reilly sells Axalta brand paint, to include lacquer and can mix any color I want. My plan is to prime everything (using Nason/Axalta epoxy primer) and then I will mask off everything that will be visible on the finished car. I will then shoot the parts that will be covered, such as the parts under the rockers, ground effects, and belt line. I'll also shoot under the door handles and on the mounting tabs. The rest will be done by my painter. I'm going to try to stick with Axalta products as that's the primer I have started with. Hopefully that will help with adhesion of the different layers of paint.
I found my lacquer paint-- looks like O'Reilly sells Axalta brand paint, to include lacquer and can mix any color I want. My plan is to prime everything (using Nason/Axalta epoxy primer) and then I will mask off everything that will be visible on the finished car. I will then shoot the parts that will be covered, such as the parts under the rockers, ground effects, and belt line. I'll also shoot under the door handles and on the mounting tabs. The rest will be done by my painter. I'm going to try to stick with Axalta products as that's the primer I have started with. Hopefully that will help with adhesion of the different layers of paint.
I would definitely stay away from Nason epoxy primer. Once it hardens you can't sand it - literally. I had a car with that primer on it & I tried everything to sand it for paint; a sheet of 180 wet would last for about 1 sq. ft., I finally had to go to 80 grit wet on the DA & even then it would only sand about 3 sq. ft.. before it completely wore out the sandpaper & just quit cutting. I use PPG DP epoxy primer. It's expensive but it's the best money can buy. I would also stay away from lacquer. Base/clear is the way to go for paint that's relatively easy to shoot & last a long time out in the weather. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
If you do the jams and trim in panels with base/clear, you need to let it set up for a few days to mask it off. Ive also seen it craize anywhere you didnt get masked and painted the outside. I only do it one of two ways. I tape it all up, paint the jams and trim along with the exterior at the same time in base/clear.....or do jams and trim in lacquer, which you can mask off in an hour or two...and paint the exterior. Like said though, you DO need to mask off the primer on the outside so its not under the exterior base/clear when its shot. Another thing is all of the basecoats Ive used, could be cleared with urethane clear OR LACQUER clear with no problems. If I have a job that needs to be done right away, like say a mirror or spoiler, Ill shoot them base, followed by lacquer clear. After a few hours in the sun,it can be buffed and delivered. Parts with lacquer clear must be treated LIKE lacquer though. It must be polished often and not quite as durable as urethane clear. Ive replaced fenders, painted it and delivered it done the same day. Urethane clear needs at least a good day or two to cure enough to go outside.
I've got no problem waiting a few days between trim paint and the full job. With that in mind, would I better going urethane base/clear for the trim and tabs, or stick with the lacquer?
As for the primer-- I sanded it today and it did great. I took it back down to being able to see through it in spots and it's smooth as a baby's ass now. I'll shoot another coat of it and sand, and hopefully it will be ready for paint after that.
I've got no problem waiting a few days between trim paint and the full job. With that in mind, would I better going urethane base/clear for the trim and tabs, or stick with the lacquer?
As for the primer-- I sanded it today and it did great. I took it back down to being able to see through it in spots and it's smooth as a baby's ass now. I'll shoot another coat of it and sand, and hopefully it will be ready for paint after that.
I was going to say make damn sure you sand it before it fully hardens. You did good. I don't like putting anything over lacquer, so I would go with base/clear for trim. Just my 2 cents... ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Ya, I'm glad you guys said something and got me to do my homework on the primer (had been going on the recommendation of friends in the industry). I shot it Saturday afternoon and sanded it today. I used 320gr paper, and could tell I didn't have much longer to get the sanding done. It happened, but I still wore through some paper doing it, far more than I do when sanding bare panels. The upshot is it sanded SUPER smooth and should be bulletproof when done.
If I'm going with a coded OEM paint color, I shouldn't expect any color matching issues, right?
Ya, I'm glad you guys said something and got me to do my homework on the primer (had been going on the recommendation of friends in the industry). I shot it Saturday afternoon and sanded it today. I used 320gr paper, and could tell I didn't have much longer to get the sanding done. It happened, but I still wore through some paper doing it, far more than I do when sanding bare panels. The upshot is it sanded SUPER smooth and should be bulletproof when done.
If I'm going with a coded OEM paint color, I shouldn't expect any color matching issues, right?
Different brands & different types of paint use different mixing colors. So to get a good match you need to use the same brand & type of paint for everything. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
If your painting everything at the same time with the same paint, it will all match even if its not an oem color. Now if you paint the fenders this week and the hood next week, even using the same paint, you have a chance of it not matching exactly. Humidity, temp, gun adjustment, air pressure ALL CAN affect the color somewhat. ie/ say on silver or gold, simply using different air pressure can make it lighter or darker. Higher air pressure will let the flakes dry near the surface and be lighter, lower air pressure will allow the flakes to sink farther into the color base and end up darker. I can adjust this when Im matching a panel in a repair. If the new panel is too dark, I can shoot it at higher air pressure (drier) and lighten it up in most cases.
