Has anyone tried engine flush in a 3800sc? My firewall side rocker bank rattles pretty bad and I was thinking of using engine flush even though i put in new lifters and primed them. I am thinking it my loosen something up that may be blocking oil passages and after doing oil change then add Lucas engine treatment. I saw a tale about the 3800 not cranking after using engine flush In a gtp gp for sale thread here just now so I wanted to ask before I did it.
I figure if its bent pushrods its not so bad but I don't know if its something else.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
Are you sure it's a rattle? I had the exact same sound on my 4.9. Everyone was convinced it was a rocker issue. I tried flushing the engine hoping it was a stuck lifter. Turned out to be an electrical arc from a plug wire on the opposite bank from where the sound was coming from (plug boot had popped off).
Edit: have you used a mechanics stethoscope? They are cheap, but very helpful for locating and identifying noises.
[This message has been edited by Neils88 (edited 08-15-2015).]
Thanks, it's definitely a rattle And not an arcing sound. But I will surely look for that, that would be a godsend.
I am gonna search around with the mechanics stethoscope tomorrow.
If I could post here I'd post a video of the rattle.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 08-15-2015).]
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
Engine flush itself won't hurt anything, but it may uncover a problem in the engine. It can loosen up gunk that ends up clogging up oil passages on poorly maintained engines. Do you think the rattle is from a lifter? Can you isolate which one? You should be able to press down on the pushrod side of the rocker while the engine is running and hear a difference in the rattle when it do it to the one that's noisy. I use something like a hammer handle to push down. You can also use a length of heater hose as a DIY stethescope to locate the sound. Put one end of the hose up to your ear and move the hose around the engine. You'll hear a definite change in sound when you're over the source of the noise. (this is great for finding small exhaust leaks)
I had new zzp torque to angle bolts and I removed the firewall side valve cover as far back as I could and tightened them too much and one snapped. Then I got that out and replaced all the rocker bolts with zzp reuseable torque only bolts but I still have that Godawful rattle. So now I don't know what it could be other than bent pushrods or something broken.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 08-16-2015).]
Double check your oil level. Searched and searched for a top end rattle. Finally found the motor was a quart low and intermetenly one of the rear lifters would collapse a bit. And sounded like the top end was coming apart. Topped off oil and problem solver. This was on a higher mile 3800. Shortly after that, I changed the oil and did add lucas oil stabilizer. All my cars use that. It's great stuff. Best of luck
Are you're the supercharger coupler is good? Those can make a lot of noise, and might sound like the rattle you are hearing. Take the belt off of the supercharger and see if the "rattle" goes away.
I just put exactly 5 quarts in, and my coupling is new. New lifters too. When I had the supercharger belt off there was no play or skipping when hand turning the supercharger pulley. I didnt run it with it off though. Ill have to try that too just to confirm .
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 08-16-2015).]
Oh and I can't check the oil level because the dipstick is buried back in the firewall. That's why I just do the oil change 5 quart jugs so ill know it has the 5 quarts in it.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
My 3.4L turbo has a ticking noise but its due to the Ross forged racing pistons that were used in the rebuild. Forged pistons have a higher rate of expansion than do the hypereutectic or cast pistons commonly used in stock OEM engines. Therefore clearances must be larger and ticking results especially when cold. If the engine was built with piston to wall clearances on the high end of the tolerance that can also cause ticking or piston noise. Get yourself an engine stethoscope. Listen at the exhaust manifolds. If you hear ticking there its probably piston noise and not rocker noise. Rocker noise can also be caused by a cam that is either defective or one that has not had a proper break in . Good luck pinpointing the problem.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
My neighbor said to put kerosene in the engine as a flush.
But I think I'll buy a can of motor flush instead.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
My neighbor said to put kerosene in the engine as a flush.
But I think I'll buy a can of motor flush instead.
I would stay away from kerosene and flush really thins the oil . I've used Rislone oil additive and its worked well. https://youtu.be/82ivVwHwnb8 Rislone is an oil detergent and works more gently than flush.
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 08-17-2015).]
After running the engine on the motor flush I would drain and refill oil and add Lucas oil stabilizer, and of course hope that the rattle goes away. Rock auto has the pushrods for 1.50 each so if nothing else works I can replace them and see if it quiets down.
At least if its only bent pushrods the motor won't blow up on me and leave me stranded, hopefully.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
Ok so today I ran motor flush through the engine and that didnt quiet the rattle. I then substituted on quart of oil during the oil change for risolene engine treatment. The rattling sound is completely unchanged.
I searched around with my mechanics stethoscope to find that the sound is localized I n the firewall head area and the tensioner pulley (new) on the dogbone is making a bit of a noise. The water pump and the supercharger sound smooth as does the. Alternator. Im stumped I guess. If an oil treatment doesn't quiet the rattling in the least then what could it be ?
Oh well,
I took it around the block and it doesn't seem as fast as I'd imagined it would be . i can't watch the road and the boost guage to see if its getting boost.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 08-21-2015).]
If you use the "Torque" on an Android device (+elm 327 reader)it will the leave a little tic mark on dial showing your minimum and maximum reading. They are reset each time the app is disconnected. I use it to track coolant temperature and manifold pressure.
Also if it is boosting it should be able to hear it whining.
------------------ 88 GT 5 Speed Black with gray interior 3800 SCII Swap Complete. Paint Complete Detailing in Progress
IT RUNS!! IT'S QUICK!!
"Real integrity is doing the right thing, knowing that nobody's going to know whether you did it or not."
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
Is it a Rattle, Ticking, or knock ? this is the same place you changed the rocker bolts, correct ? A "Rattle" is usually something LOOSE ( Bracket, something bolted to the engine that is not tight enough. a "ticking" is something has too big a Clearance ( valve to rocker arm, pushrod ect. and a "knock", well....... Putting "anything" in your Oil that washes out any heavy deposits in a High Mile engine is a Bad idea. Have you ever heard the saying " the sludge might be the only thing that's holding it together"?
It is sometimes difficult for even an expert to determine the cause of a ticking noise. Some causes are worn wrist pins, excessive bearing clearances, valve train noise, excessive piston to wall clearance, hung lifter (my guess), worn cam lobe (possible), loose timing chain, noisy fuel injectors and even an exhaust manifold leak. Keep moving the stethoscope around to find it. Listen on the oil pan, the exhaust manifolds, at the injectors and of course at the valve covers. If you are sure that its coming from there, remove the valve cover and check again Wiggle each push rod from side to side to check for excessive clearance and even check afterwards with with the engine idling. Might have to surround the engine with old rags to prevent a mess but running this this way (for a short time) you can get right on the offending spot.. . BTW, you can check the oil on a 3800 in a Fiero. Stand in the trunk, reach back to the front side of the drivetrain and use a flashlight to locate the dip stick. That's how I do it.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
On I see the dipstick easily, I just don't see it making that tight bend.
I guess tapping sound would describe it best.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
My guess. Collapsed lifter or loose wrist pin. I thought that you said that your engine was recently rebuilt?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I personally took the top off to the lifter valleyand replaced lifters with brand new lifters that i primed and gaskets, I used new rocker bolts too.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
I removed the belts this morning and the tapping is still there. Its either something internal, or an exhaust leak (which im hoping)
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
Any ideas on how to check for an exhaust leak on the firewall side? If i spray marine fogging oil into the intske and see if smoke comes out by the firewall maybe?
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
Good bet it's NOT exhaust leak, bearing, Or wristpin, That IS valve train noise. what did the engine sound like BEFORE you broke the rocker BOLT ? pull the valve cover, start for a second to see if oil is Getting to the valves. (best to cut the Top off an Old Valve Cover and install it before running) What is your OIL PRESSURE??? I've made topless valve covers for all my engines for just such a purpose, very cheap and very handy.(plastic valve cover is easy to cut)
WHEN YOU REPLACED the rocker bolts, are you SURE that the rocker pedestals were sitting flat in the correct positions Before you torqued the bolts ? sounds like more than 1
I took her for a ride today (she has the quart of rislone in her) and got on her a bit and the rattle went away 99%.
Oh yeah !
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
I don't know. The dash gauge is just above the middle (just above 40). How do I hook up a mechanical gauge?
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
unscrew the Oil "sender"( the thing the wire harness plugs onto) (put a wrench on the Tube so you don't crack it) Screw in an cheap oil pressure gauge into the hole, they all come with Adapters, the gauges are only $15 for a set of 3 gauges at harbor freight, or $20 for a good one at advanced. If you don't have 50 PSI at idle (cold) 30 (Hot), something's seriously wrong. That's the "FIRST thing" I always check for ANY engine whether it runs good or not, tells you if it's worth the effort. ** "Could be a "Stuck" pressure relief valve in the oil pump, no oil pressure brings on all sorts of noises.**
If you think about it, Lou reported that the ticking noise went away after a drive and then came back. That could be the clue to oil pressure declining and then returning; possible sticking of the check valve. Lou also reported that his oil pressure gauge needle was at the half mark. Every swap that I have seen that uses the 88 oil pressure sender shows the gauge reading at or near maximum due to the 3800's higher oil pressure. My own swap kept pegging the needle so I had to add some parallel resistance to adjust the gauge reading. At this juncture, I think that it is very important for Lou to check the engine oil pressure and to insure that the correct oil filter was used. .
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I gotta put my 2 cents in because I just did this last month resurrecting 2 Fieros from 6 years of sitting. Ignore all the off the shelf products including Lucas. They don't work and if they do they take forever. Here's what really works 9 times out of ten. Drain the oil. Buy Use 1 quart of cheap 5w30 and 3 quarts of ATF. These are available at the 99 cent store. Also buy a 5qt jug of Mobil 1 Extended performance 5w30 15,000 mile oil and a filter 3980 (At Walmart). Run for 30 mins with the 1 quart 5w30/3 quart ATF mix. Let it get hot and stinky running at idle and rev/hold during this time. Don't use 100% ATF as you may get some hydra-resistance. Then drain, let it drip till you see nothing coming out of the hole. Change the filter, then pour in half a quart of the Mobil 1 just to flush /clean out the bottom of the oil pan. Put a new plug and gasket back in and fill up the rest of the way with the Mobil 1 extended performance. Nothing else is more effective and you don't have to take the valve covers off (unless of course you have a rocker arm that fell off) ATF will sometimes loosen up seized engines and sometimes cleans up fuel injectors and crystallization left from years old gas (which bends pushrods btw). It has lots of detergent in it and is your safest and most cost effective method. Also someone did an independent study 4 years ago to answer which penetrating oil works the best and the winner was a homemade batch mixed 50/50 of ATF with Acetone. So not only will you fix your lifter tick without taking apart your engine, but you won't have to change the oil for 15,000 miles. Thats an oil change a year. Your Welcome.
One more thing…If its a rattle, it's probably the catalytic convertor heat shield rotting off. Engines problems generally Tic, knock ping or squeal. They generally don't rattle unless a rocker arm came loose from the valve and pushrod. So flushes won't fix rattles but they can fix Tics. So ask yourself if it's a rattle or a tick.
[This message has been edited by danscrazymodshop (edited 08-25-2015).]
