ATF will sometimes loosen up seized engines and sometimes cleans up fuel injectors and crystallization left from years old gas (which bends pushrods btw).
I was told about using ATF in engine crankcases (due to it's high detergency) more than 40 years ago by some old-school mechanics. However, could you explain the old gas/bent pushrod comment. I don't quite follow what you're saying.
Ok well I put a 12oz bottle of valve cleaner oil detergent n today and ran the car More than ever. Rattling is still there as loud as ever.
Couple questions :
On a 3800sc without rocker adjustments, if I torque the rocker to the 22ft pounds but there is pressure on it from the pushrod because it was holding a valve open before I torqued the bolt down, will it push that valve open again as I torque it or should I rotate the engine until ther isn't pushing pressure on the rocker and retorque it?
Question 2 if a push rod is slightly bent and bowed, that should mean its a bit shorter due to the bend so ther sis now play between the lifter and the pushrod so it makes a tapping sound? I do think the pushrods were slightly bowed.
Thanks!!
P.s. I do have oil pressure (going from the dash gauge) If not my engine would have died today
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 08-25-2015).]
unscrew the Oil "sender"( the thing the wire harness plugs onto) (put a wrench on the Tube so you don't crack it) Screw in an cheap oil pressure gauge into the hole, they all come with Adapters, the gauges are only $15 for a set of 3 gauges at harbor freight, or $20 for a good one at advanced. If you don't have 50 PSI at idle (cold) 30 (Hot), something's seriously wrong. That's the "FIRST thing" I always check for ANY engine whether it runs good or not, tells you if it's worth the effort. ** "Could be a "Stuck" pressure relief valve in the oil pump, no oil pressure brings on all sorts of noises.**
When I checked the trunk side rockers (easy to get at) they had oil pumping up. I assumed that the opposite side would also have oil pumping up.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
My 3800sc car doesn't have a heat shield. What 'gasket' is being referred to?
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
Oh and what do you mean by the correct filter on it? I use the book and buy the filter for a 96 bonneville. Thats what my engine was from. Should I buy one for a 99 Grand Prix if that's what my oil filter adapter is from? Is there a difference?
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 08-25-2015).]
The oil pressure relief valve is really in the oil filter Adapter right? I checked that and even replaced it even though it was ok.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 08-25-2015).]
Ok but does that mean they are slightly smaller in length and may have play between lifter and rocker and that may be the tapping? If not bow does a be t pushrod make a tapping noise? the home its in has planth of room around the pushrod. How would they have gotten bowed in the first place?
Any info on the torquing process for the rocker bolts? should I hand spin the engine and retorque each one when there isn't any lifter push on it? Is that how it's done? I am ordering a set of pushrods from rockauto. Zzp is $99 a set and rock auto is like $26 for a set. I will replace them all but I'm not sure if I torque each one once , even the ones that have pressure on them and are holding valves open.
Lou has me worried about oil pressure now. Is it possible wih the solvents In The oil , the oil is thinned and reading lower oil pressure? That was always the reading from what I remember 40psi on the dash guage.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
Woah! Two different length pushrods on rock auto for my 96 bonneville 3.8 supercharged .... Which length should I get ?
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
So I guess the rock auto 7.029 is better than the 6.9
I used engine tech lifters from rock auto and they say "factory specs" I wonder if they really are.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 08-25-2015).]
Rock auto sells oil pump repair kits but that means dropping the cradle and oil pan. I have fierorog's front motor mount so that won't allow oil pan removal with out being removed.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
Lou. There are so many possibilities being discussed here that it would be beneficial to address them one at a time. I would not go out and buy a whole bunch of new parts before you narrow things down. First off: oil pressure. IF you used the 88 Fiero oil pressure sensor and the stock gauge only reads 40 psi there is probably something wrong with the oil flow or the gauge. On the other swaps that I have done the Fiero oil pressure gauge usually starts at max and then tapers down just a bit slowly as the engine warms. Check the oil pressure with a good aftermarket gauge. If that checks OK then move on. Pushrods: Geeze I didn't know that two lengths were specified for the 3800 but that requires more research. The series I and II engines used different length rods but I thought that all series II engines used the same length rods. Do you have the original rods? Measure them and compare them to the new rods. I am stumped on this one Oil filter: The correct one is AC Delco PF47. Lifter preload: Each piston at TDC postion should see both valves fully closed. With the correct preload on the lifters (i know that they are not adjustable) you should not feel any up and down movement on the push rod at all. The lifters should be a bit beyond zero lash at this point with no play. Try the check.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
In response to the ATF question about the old gas causes bent pushrods. This had happened to my Indy before I got it going again. What happens is this. When you start a car that has very stale gas in it and after you shut the car off, the old gas vapor evaporates and crystal varnishes on the valve stem as the engine cools down. Depending on how stale the gas is, the crystal varnish can seize the valve in the guide. The damage actually occurs the next time you try to start the car when the pushrod try's to move the seized valve and can't so it bends because the pushrod is hollow and is the weaker of the two in the rocker fulcrum. This was the case in my car. I had 3 stuck valves. What I did was remove the valve cover, remove the rocker arms and bent pushrods, then pour ATF on the valves so the ATF could seep into the guides. I let it soak for a few days. After the soaking I then lightly tapped on the stems of the valves with a small hammer till I could feel all the valve springs bounce. Before I started this project 3 valves were solid seized when I started and I was worried that 1 valve was bent but luckily it wasn't. Don't tap too hard as it mushrooms the back of the stem. After about a week of ATF soaking and hammer tapping every valve freed up. After I moved to NY I replaced all the pushrods and flushed the engine with 3 quarts of ATF and a quart of oil. Worked like a charm and my oil is crystal clear.
My oil Filter is usually a fram or this time a purolator . Whatever is in the computer at advance auto or autozone or pep boys for my 96 bonneville 3.8 supercharged (although my oil Filter adapter is from a 99 gp)
I have rock auto engine tech lifters which don't specify a size and the stock pushrods which may be a little bowed.
I torqued the rockers without moving the engine so I will try to torque them at rest before doing anything else.
I have tried motor flush, rislone , and motor medic oil detergent all say that they clean out clogged oil Passages.
I will wait on buying pushrods until I torque each rocker in resting position and see if that silences the valve train noise. I am not sure about them anyway but the engine tech ones are 7.029 and zzp says stock is 7.05
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
At the moment I only have one set of pushrods that are presently in the engine. I havent bought new pushrods yet. Only new lifters which I installed
I really don't understand the preload thing.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
Dan I see you are in NY I wish you were closer to me. My engine runs fine and has ok power so I don't think i have stuck valves.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
Sorry Patrick. Too bad your not in space. No one can hear you scream there. I can't believe you counted the lines of my signature. I won't put it on this thread anymore .
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 08-25-2015).]
Lou, first off, get a manual for you engine. It will tell you the specs for setting the preload on the lifters. I don't know anything about your engine but, adjusting a typical hydraulic lifter will usually require that the lifter be on the base circle of the cam, in other words, valve closed. carefully tighten the bolt until there is just barely zero lash, no slop, between the rocker and the pushrod and no more. This is where the spec comes in. Some engines will call for 1 full turn after zero lash, some maybe 3/4 of a turn, etc. This should give you proper preload on the lifter. But you must have a manual to find out. Once in a while you can get lucky at the library and find a manual to read . Hope this helps.
P.S. I wouldn't run that engine anymore till you figure it out.
Sorry Patrick. Too bad your not in space. No one can hear you scream there. I can't believe you counted the lines of my signature.
Seriously Lou, you're overdoing the signature. From Cliff's rules that I previously linked to...
quote
Size Please consider the height of your sig-pic. If your sig-pic consistently takes up more vertical space than your message, you can be pretty sure it's waaaaay too big. A good sig-pic is no higher than, say, 6 lines of text.
When to use your signature It's completely unnecessary to include your signature in every single message you post in the same thread. Even though your sig-pic will only be loaded once (and then cached by your browser), it does mean people have to do a lot of unnecessary scrolling.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-25-2015).]
Patrick I see that from your link so I said I won't post it again in this thread. I apologize again. I am truly sorry, I surely never meant to get anyone upset.
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 08-25-2015).]
JM, thanks for the info. Zzp says to torque the lifters to 22 ft pounds but I didn't realize I had to have them on the "valve closed" position so im gonna try that and hope it cures this rattly tapping. Good thing I got the reuseable zzp rocker bolts.
Some engines will call for 1 full turn after zero lash, some maybe 3/4 of a turn, etc. This should give you proper preload on the lifter.
From what I understand, the 3800 is similar to the duke in that there is NO lifter adjustment. The rocker bolts are simply tightened to spec and that's it.
And on that same topic, I made the mistake of tightening the rocker bolts on my '84 duke without worrying about where the rockers were on the cam. I figured it wouldn't make any difference. It did. It clattered badly. I had to eventually undo the rocker bolts and then tighten them up while each rocker/lifter was on the low part of the cam lobe. It was fine after that. (The 2.8 is a different matter completely, and I went into detail HERE how I adjusted the lifter pre-load on my '88 Formula.)
However, it's still critical that none of your pushrods are bent. Any that are bent need to be replaced. They're easy to check by rolling on a pane of glass or a mirror.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-26-2015).]
Patrick did you see my dilemma with the pushrod length difference between rock auto and zz and intense performance ? Zzp and intense say the stock length is 7.05" but the rock auto replacements are 7.029.
I think it's my rockers being torqued while under Pressure like your 2.5 that is the issue so I'm gonna try that first before I go buy pushrods. Here's the stupid question. Is the problem with slightly bowed pushrods the fact that they are resultingly a bit shorter and have play due to the shortened length? Or is there something else that could be harmful?
Patrick did you see my dilemma with the pushrod length difference between rock auto and zz and intense performance ? Zzp and intense say the stock length is 7.05" but the rock auto replacements are 7.029.
I wouldn't call .021" difference in length between pushrods a "dilemma". That's 21 thousandths of an inch! Don't know which ones to get? Buy the less expensive ones.
quote
Originally posted by Lou and Blue:
Here's the stupid question. Is the problem with slightly bowed pushrods the fact that they are resultingly a bit shorter and have play due to the shortened length? Or is there something else that could be harmful?
Once a pushrod is bent, it's strength/rigidity is compromised. It's liable to keep bending.
Yeah if the rocker arms are what I would call ball and socket, like the duke, that takes the guess work out of the adjustment. But at a minimum get the lifters on the base circle of the cam. If your torqueing one lifter that is on base and one that is pressing down on the valve spring you wont be close on the adjustment. If a spring takes 200 pounds of force to open, you could easily be fooled by not having the lifter/valve in the closed position. jm
What I did was remove the valve cover, remove the rocker arms and bent pushrods, then pour ATF on the valves so the ATF could seep into the guides.
So I take in then that enough of the ATF gets by the valve guide seals?
I've never experienced stuck valves in a car. Many many years ago (40?) when I worked on air-cooled engines, I'd often get engines in for repair that had been turned off suddenly when they were really hot, and if the exhaust valve happened to be open, the valve stem would sometimes warp as the valve cooled down and the valve would be stuck. To this very day, I still make sure my gas lawnmower is on the compression stroke (both valves closed) when I put it away after mowing the lawn.
Yeah if the rocker arms are what I would call ball and socket, like the duke, that takes the guess work out of the adjustment. But at a minimum get the lifters on the base circle of the cam. If your torqueing one lifter that is on base and one that is pressing down on the valve spring you wont be close on the adjustment. If a spring takes 200 pounds of force to open, you could easily be fooled by not having the lifter/valve in the closed position. jm
I really think that is the problem. I am going to re torque the rockers making sure none are pressing on a spring as i torque them.
Lou , I've had the rockers out and in my hands and thy are ball and socket . The are not roller rockers. You may have upgraded rockers but the stock rockers are not roller. The lifters are roller bottom but the rockers are not roller.
I thought Lou meant roller where the rockers push on the valve , but he meant where they pivot . I'm saying ball and socket where the pushrod contacts the rocker . So they are roller fulcrum rockers, not roller rockers like I remember from the small block Chevys. I understand now.
But now knowing the rockers didnt have to be at resting position to be torqued means they must be tightened ok. So now I think it's either bent pushrods making noise because they are a bit short due to the bend and they are tapping the rocker or they are hitting the rocker guide. OR a lack of oil flow which makes sense a bit because the rislone silenced the tapping but then It came back just as loud as ever..... The mystery continues.
Just my 2 cents here because I read all your threads Lou and am gonna be replacing the same thing you did as far as lifters when I eventually replace my LIM in my 3800SC. I remember you had a thread where you asked about a spring that popped out of what I think was your oil filter adapter. Did you ever get that put back together correctly ? I don't know the correct way but just remembered you posting a problem with some spring and didn't know which way it went back together. Just something to think about in case you forgot.
That valve and spring was the first thing I checked and it was fine. I replaced the spring aNd valve when i checked it just because I had ordered the parts from gmpartsnow .com
If you are going to un-torque the rockers before you torque them you may want to consider backing off enough to spin the push rods. If a push rod is bent you should be able to feel or see it wobble as you rotate it. That would put that issue to bed.
Also while you have it that far apart you may want to pull a push rod and measure it. Then if you need to get new push rod you will have the length.
------------------ 88 GT 5 Speed Black with gray interior 3800 SCII Swap Complete. Paint Complete Detailing in Progress
IT RUNS!! IT'S QUICK!!
"Real integrity is doing the right thing, knowing that nobody's going to know whether you did it or not."
It clattered badly. I had to eventually undo the rocker bolts and then tighten them up while each rocker/lifter was on the low part of the cam lobe. It was fine after that. (The 2.8 is a different matter completely, and I went into detail 
