here is something i just found.... 93-95 pistons have a 1.53mm top ring groove. 96-99 pistons have a 1.23mm top ring groove... my rebuild kit was for ordered for the 97 block i have but i reused the pistons out of the 94 because they were already cleaned and under the impression they were the same for all years. So my top ring is .30mm too thin wow.
also... going through the catalogue on rockauto it shows the same pistons for all years but points to the 93-95 piston ring. so if you order pistons under the 96-99 year you have to go back out and look up rings for the 93-95 year to get the right ones.
Can I ask why you are putting yourself through this misery? Is there a particular reason you feel the need to use those time bombs? I would have had a SBC or an LS engine in there by now with a lot more power and a lot less cost and headache.
I feel for you man but let this be a lesson learned. Caddy owners don't even want those things.
If you don't have anything positive to contribute to this thread, why don't you start a new thread and post your thoughts there.
Originally posted by IXSLR8: If you don't have anything positive to contribute to this thread, why don't you start a new thread and post your thoughts there.
Oh.... That hurt.
Perhaps you didn't read the OP's response...........
quote
Originally posted by mcfrandon:
i get that question all the time.. just personal preference really. I dont want to be another SBC or LS guy we have handfulls of them running around... its nice to have something different even if it is a pain. I do like the fact that its DOHC and mates up with the tranny easily. I will get it right eventually but for now im going to get a thousand miles on this motor and see where we are.
Now.... Why don't you start your own thread and post your BS statement there.
been trying to drive it more often to try and get things seated nicely before i run it hard. seems to use a quart every hundred miles. holy cow. in that case i might be looking for a new short block sooner than later if it doesnt slow down. after doing some searching looks like either GM or hastings rings are best with no hone of course, and might as well put rods and maybe pistons in it
Been there. It won't get better. You may need to find another block with the factory hone or hone your current block properly to restore the bore surface finish, and get oversize pistons. I don't think there are any shelf oversize pistons.
quote
Originally posted by mcfrandon:
here is something i just found.... 93-95 pistons have a 1.53mm top ring groove. 96-99 pistons have a 1.23mm top ring groove... my rebuild kit was for ordered for the 97 block i have but i reused the pistons out of the 94 because they were already cleaned and under the impression they were the same for all years. So my top ring is .30mm too thin wow.
also... going through the catalogue on rockauto it shows the same pistons for all years but points to the 93-95 piston ring. so if you order pistons under the 96-99 year you have to go back out and look up rings for the 93-95 year to get the right ones.
Umm... yeah, that'll hurt your oil consumption too, as well as not making much power. There aren't many year to year changes, but you seem to be having trouble with all of them
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-22-2016).]
Don't feed the trolls. If he had any skill or experience building real engines, he'd be offering helpful advice, not being a jerk.
I know exactly what a "good" build really is. You obviously don't. Moron! How do you like the name calling?
Me and the OP were having a civil discussion. I made asked a statement and asked a question, the OP answered. All was well and respected. YOU and your buddy came along with your panties in an uproar and nothing to add other than BS. The funny thing is, niether one of us were talking to either one of you.
Now, where is your experience?
And I also know all about the time bomb you call a Northstar. I've had a few and regret every single one, so does the GM warranty program and the Caddy dealerships.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 01-22-2016).]
Don't feed the trolls. If he had any skill or experience building real engines, he'd be offering helpful advice, not being a jerk.
CRICKETS!?!?
I noticed your location is "Where you least expect me". You must be referring to the garage.
Sorry to the OP for this O/T BS but if idiots are going to call me out they better know who they are dealing with. I have owned more cars and worked on more cars by the time I was 25 than some fools will in 2 of their lifetimes.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 01-22-2016).]
looking through the after market piston selection it looks like they have oversizes in .25 .50 and .75.... interesting but thats $400 not including rings/rebore.
but im going to get the right piston and ring setup in there and see where im at first. besides the rings all i will need is another pair of headgaskets and rod bearings to get in and out of there.
i know im being ignorant about the cylinder bores but the hone is still there and it measures out good. I want to at least give this a go before i tear everything apart completely and start over from scratch again..
looking through the after market piston selection it looks like they have oversizes in .25 .50 and .75.... interesting but thats $400 not including rings/rebore.
but im going to get the right piston and ring setup in there and see where im at first. besides the rings all i will need is another pair of headgaskets and rod bearings to get in and out of there.
i know im being ignorant about the cylinder bores but the hone is still there and it measures out good. I want to at least give this a go before i tear everything apart completely and start over from scratch again..
I wonder how much power im missing out on
If you don't mind taking the engine down a couple more times (you've done it enough, itt should be easy by now! ), go for it. Do you have photos of the bores? How were they honed? If they're on size, then they can't have been honed much. Do you have a torque plate?
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-23-2016).]
i do have a few pictures but can't post them cause my computer is down. i got the engine out and torn down tonight. still a nice hone in the bore... it does look like a finer hone then i remember seeing on but there is also a deeper hone pattern beneath it..
the top ring was definitely the wrong size for that piston. im actually going to use the 97 pistons just so i can keep the same year going here. looks like they moved the ring up a bit as well
no i dont have a torque plate and it was not honed using one unfortunately
ok so I got the right rings in pistons in the engine and it still smokes on deceleration.
what doesnt make sense is that it did this on the factory engine when i first got the 94 engine. smoked exactly the same. only thing that had changed was the headgaskets and seals.
now im on a completely different engine.. the 97 completely rebuilt and it still smokes the same.
I tried a leak down test but i couldnt get it to seal up to get any other reading than 100 percent leakdown but it certainly was not coming out of the dip stick or breathers. it sounded like it was either not sealing at the spark plug hole (has the o-ring) or the exhaust valves were not seating, or both. gave up tonight but i will be back at it again and with a comp test too but im sure that will come back ok.
Maybe your new rings are still not completely seated just yet.
Or
Maybe you are sucking in oil from your heads through a leaking PVC tin cover in the underside of your valve cover(s).
What about your oil level? I've read on the Cadillac Forums that some say if you fill your block past the half way mark on the dipstick reading that the N* will use oil excessively.
[This message has been edited by IXSLR8 (edited 02-07-2016).]
ive tried running around with just breathers on the valve covers and no pcv. same problem
ive been driving it a bit now and it hasn't gotten any better. luckily sunday i picked a motor out of a 96 deville. im going to get started on this block and take it nice and slow. i wont be touching the cylinder walls at all. im thinking of putting pistons and rods and maybe boosting it one way or another. i see that you can get 4.4L superchargers on ebay still in packaging for $700 but im not so sure the belt routing would work or have enough room. I have read that it will bolt up to the heads though. Im going to look into it a little more cause i like the idea of its low profile and added power without having to run lines and new exhaust for a turbocharger. I'd really like to be in the 500hp area but i dont think it can be done on this engine all motor.
Maybe your new rings are still not completely seated just yet.
Or
Maybe you are sucking in oil from your heads through a leaking PVC tin cover in the underside of your valve cover(s).
What about your oil level? I've read on the Cadillac Forums that some say if you fill your block past the half way mark on the dipstick reading that the N* will use oil excessively.
Taking technical advice from Cadillac Forums is... risky.
quote
Originally posted by mcfrandon:
ive tried running around with just breathers on the valve covers and no pcv. same problem
ive been driving it a bit now and it hasn't gotten any better. luckily sunday i picked a motor out of a 96 deville. im going to get started on this block and take it nice and slow. i wont be touching the cylinder walls at all. im thinking of putting pistons and rods and maybe boosting it one way or another. i see that you can get 4.4L superchargers on ebay still in packaging for $700 but im not so sure the belt routing would work or have enough room. I have read that it will bolt up to the heads though. Im going to look into it a little more cause i like the idea of its low profile and added power without having to run lines and new exhaust for a turbocharger. I'd really like to be in the 500hp area but i dont think it can be done on this engine all motor.
The supercharger doesn't bolt up to the non-supercharged engine. The supercharger doesn't bolt up to the <'99 engine.
will arent you running around with high comp pistons and cams?? what do you make for power?
i got the new engine apart tonight and its in great shape all around. very happy with it. all the bolts had a nice crack to them as well. the only bearing with any sort of visible wear was rod bearing 1.
i need to decide what pistons to go with if i need high comp pistons or if im going to boost it i probably want like a 9:1 at the most
also the pistons walls do look different than what the machine shop had put on the engine currently in the car.
GM's factory hone is pretty darn nice. Since the bore liners are as hard as they are, the bores wear very little and re-honing is typically only necessary when using a torque plate for a higher end build.
I'm running 11.5 compression with stock cams and made 312 RWHP with the Shelby computer, post tuning.
Are you looking for 500 at the wheels or 500 at the crank? 500 at the crank is achievable N/A if you spend enough money with CHRFab on cylinder heads and turn the engine to 8500. If you want 500 at the wheels, you'll need some boost.
Boost will allow you to make enough torque to shred a 282 and/or the Fiero inner (and stock outer) CV joints.
i need more inserts for the new block i have. i think they are like 200 for another set
im really torn on boosting it or not. i really just feel like since im going through all this trouble of taking it apart and putting another engine in that it should make more power.
chrfab head work alone is 2k. its hard to justify spending that much on head work that probably wont net me nearly close to what a turbo would. then again like you said any boost would pretty much mean new trans and axles.
how much did your high comp cp pistons run you? did you have the engine balanced?
Eagle rods and CP pistons. I weight relieved the crank and then had it balanced at the new bobweight. Here's some heavy duty math on weight relief: http://www.realfierotech.co...topic.php?f=3&t=4522 IIRC, CP's were in the neighborhood of $100 each with pins.
Alan must have quoted you his normal head package. If you talk to him long enough, he'll try to sell you the package with cut down titanium Indy car valves 0.100 over stock, but that's only $4000 or so.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-20-2016).]
holy smokes that was a read. a little over my head for sure.
im really starting to wonder if i really need pistons/rod/rebalance if im going to keep it under 500hp so i dont have to change trannys. the bottom end is pretty stout in this thing and if im running arp rod bolts and tri metal bearings then i think i might be ok to that power range. I just sold a 4cyl car that i put a turbo on and ran it to 250-300 hp/tq and it was a stock block with 9.5comp ratio at around 18psi boost with meth injection and the internals were nothing compared to this thing.
What's the most powerful Fiero and the most powerful car you've ever driven? A 400 WHP Fiero has *WAY* more performance than anyone can put to use on public roads.
Hey guys, just wanted to give an update since it's been several years. I guess at some point I found direction and just took off. Not sure if I mentioned but I ended up picking up a 87GT Chassis.
As the build sits it is a .020 over northstar with a 70mm turbo, F40 6speed, water injection, and water to air intercooler.
I'm making just over 540hp at the wheels but need to go to a standalone ECU to crank out more power.
The engine has Ross Racing pistons, and Eagle H beam rods, and King Tri metal bearings. Professionally hand balanced entire rotating assembly. Running royal purple 5w-30XPR with an oil cooler and K&N filter.
Walbro 450 fuel pump and 1000cc injectors. running about 20psi of boost. Norms inserts with ARP studs and cometic gaskets. I have also had the A/C working at one point.
The wheels are grandsport replicas with 345s in the rear 285s up front TOYO R888. Brembo brakes from a hyundai 5.0 and corvette rotors.
I have also converted to adjustable electric power steering which has been just awesome.
I believe with a proper computer this could get in the 700hp-1000hp range. The MAF is maxed out and cannot convert to speed density with the LS1 northstar program from westers.
Currently I have the car listed for sale as it has really been sitting the last few years as i pursue other paths. Thank you guys for all your help.
At this point i cannot remember where I bought the fenders. It was an online vendor and they are universal. May have been a drift website but it's been about 8 years.
The engine was bored and honed at our local machine shop
Yes the new radiator up front is for the intercooler. The water is pumped through there down copper pipes and rubber hoses beneath the car to the heat exchanger is the back that is inline with the intercooler piping. There are also water injection nozzles located on the intake side pre turbo and one on the throttle body just after the maf.
She has been known to shoot some flames!
[This message has been edited by mcfrandon (edited 06-30-2023).]
Nice job. Thats quite a bit of power that you've achieved. If you used the larger head bolts on your build with that N* engine you should be OK.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
), go for it. Do you have photos of the bores? How were they honed? If they're on size, then they can't have been honed much. Do you have a torque plate?
