I've already asked enough questions in Lou's thread. Time to stop hijacking.
For the folks who have used this rack... Rockauto only seems to list one replacement for the 95 Firebird. (I have to guess that the Camaro will be similar, if not the same part number, although to be fair, I haven't checked.) Is there a "quick" ratio available for these racks? Or are they all the same? Has anyone here had a good (or bad, I suppose) experience with a "parts store" rack as opposed to a salvage yard rack? (Cardone stuff seems to have a good rep. That's kind of the way I'm leaning, right now.) I'd rather spend a bit more money and get something that I don't have to rebuild, instead of saving a few dollars and having to rebuild the whole thing. Has anyone successfully installed this rack and have it peacefully coexist with a front mounted battery box?
Am I missing anything? Any and all suggestions or information will be greatly appreciated. (Unless you want to tell me "don't". Then save it.)
If anyone cares, I am planning to use a late MR2 electric pump, or maybe one from a newer Dodge Challenger or Charger. Probably the MR2.
Thanks! ------------------ Raydar 88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550 Praise the Lowered!
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-26-2014).]
I would guess look under v8 option and find the unit for the trans am, I am not sure it is a different ratio but is a different unit.. ok after a sec or 2 of searching the standard 95 firebird is 2.67 lock to lock and formula or trans am is 2.28 lock to lock.
------------------
87GTseries 1 3800sc (7.597 @88.53 1.579 60ft) (series II swap in progress) 85GT Northstar/ 4t80e 86GT 3800 n/a---sold Northstar Rebuild
[This message has been edited by jb1 (edited 10-26-2014).]
Originally posted by jb1: I would guess look under v8 option and find the unit for the trans am, I am not sure it is a different ratio but is a different unit.. ok after a sec or 2 of searching the standard 95 firebird is 2.67 lock to lock and formula or trans am is 2.28 lock to lock.
Okay. That makes sense. I swear I looked on the Rockauto site and didn't see any differences. But then I only compared the 3.8 and the 5.7 listings. There is also a 3.4 listing, but I didn't check it because I figured that it and the 3.8 were both "base" cars.
Or maybe I just had my head up in a dark place, and missed it. Entirely possible.
I looked on rockauto as well and noticed it showed a different unit for trans am, so I googled the difference between the two racks, I am not sure how accurate that info is but I had first figured the trans am would be the quicker ratio.. I ordered a transmission for mine today , so when I get it in and back running I am going to attempt this swap... Every since I put the larger wheels and tire on my car it is really difficult to turn.. Please keep us posted on your progress. ------------------
87GTseries 1 3800sc (7.597 @88.53 1.579 60ft) (series II swap in progress) 85GT Northstar/ 4t80e 86GT 3800 n/a---sold Northstar Rebuild
[This message has been edited by jb1 (edited 10-26-2014).]
I've already asked enough questions in Lou's thread. Time to stop hijacking.
For the folks who have used this rack... Rockauto only seems to list one replacement for the 95 Firebird. (I have to guess that the Camaro will be similar, if not the same part number, although to be fair, I haven't checked.) Is there a "quick" ratio available for these racks? Or are they all the same? Has anyone here had a good (or bad, I suppose) experience with a "parts store" rack as opposed to a salvage yard rack? (Cardone stuff seems to have a good rep. That's kind of the way I'm leaning, right now.) I'd rather spend a bit more money and get something that I don't have to rebuild, instead of saving a few dollars and having to rebuild the whole thing. Has anyone successfully installed this rack and have it peacefully coexist with a front mounted battery box?
Am I missing anything? Any and all suggestions or information will be greatly appreciated. (Unless you want to tell me "don't". Then save it.)
If anyone cares, I am planning to use a late MR2 electric pump, or maybe one from a newer Dodge Challenger or Charger. Probably the MR2.
Thanks!
As far as I know the fast ratio rack was part of the Trans Am WS6 Package. I picked one up on ebay from a 2000 T/A WS6 with low miles. I coupled this to the MR2 pump and its definitely quick steering but not scarry at all. I mounted the pump in the rear and the front tub is still out but can be installed with some nip & tuck. I also plan on moving the battery to the front. Also (95-97) F-racks line up a little better due to the pinion angle.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Spoon... Thanks for the info. It is my understanding that the MR2 pump is variable, depending upon a "vehicle speed signal" (whatever that may be) that is input to one of the pins on the pump. Are you using that speed input? Or does the pump run "full blast" all the time?
Spoon... Thanks for the info. It is my understanding that the MR2 pump is variable, depending upon a "vehicle speed signal" (whatever that may be) that is input to one of the pins on the pump. Are you using that speed input? Or does the pump run "full blast" all the time?
All the input is appreciated. :thumbsup:
One of the pins on the pump connect to the Fiero VSS (variable speed sensor). XX pulses per mile (ppm) /same as MR2. If you have the 4 speed its the yellow wire on the VSS you connect to which is on the tranny. The vss doubles as the fill plug. The MR2 pump wired this way has 3 stages of rpm. Each rpm range is a different pressure.
When the car is not moving and your hands are off the wheel the rpm is at idle. The moment you tug at the wheel, the fluid pressure will increase causing the pump to rev to the highest rpm. Rpm=pressure. As car speed increases the pump rpms start to step back down and at highway speed it steps back to idle, and it feels like driving a non-ps car. I believe only 7 pins need to be connected on the pump. The remainder are for integration into the MR2 computer diagnostics.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Okay. Since I'm running a 4.9 and the later Getrag, I'm using the later VSS. I'm guessing that I can still use the signal that feeds the speedo, as opposed to the direct VSS signal, since the pulses are the same in number.
You said 7 pins? I'm only counting 3 or maybe four. (Power, ground, VSS, and maybe a VSS return.) Are the others just used in the stock MR2 application? Not needed here?
Okay. Since I'm running a 4.9 and the later Getrag, I'm using the later VSS. I'm guessing that I can still use the signal that feeds the speedo, as opposed to the direct VSS signal, since the pulses are the same in number.
You said 7 pins? I'm only counting 3 or maybe four. (Power, ground, VSS, and maybe a VSS return.) Are the others just used in the stock MR2 application? Not needed here?
Thanks!
Been a while since I reviewed the info. Maybe this pic will help. Looks like 5 connections. I wired mine slightly different.
Next pic is my setup. Found it on the web. Dont know who posted it.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Perfect! That's what I needed. Thank you! More going on with the connections than I realized.
That's quite a tidy installation. I plan to put my pump in the front. The battery is already up there, and my brakes are too big to allow the use of any kind of a reasonably-sized spare. So I have lots of room available, it would seem.
Good luck Mr. Raydar. Let me know if you need more info.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Has anyone had good (or not-so-good) luck with parts store racks? I would prefer to buy a rebuilt (or even new) rack, as opposed to one from a salvage yard. I don't want to have to buy something and then have to rework it. Any preferred brands?
Thanks!
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-29-2015).]
I would love to have this in my 88 GT. With the larger tires, 18 inch rims and my arthritis, carpel tunnel and other issues it would sure help keep my hands and arms from hurting.
Does the MR2 pump run all the time when the ignition is on, or does it have some sort of accumulator or steering angle sensitivity?
If wired by the above schematic the pump will run when the ignition is in the run position. However I wired mine with a pressure switch tee'd into the oil pressure line below the oil sender. I ran my power wire for the pump thru this switch so the p/s wont run unless you have oil pressure, hence the engine has to be running. It's an adjustable switch and I believe I set it to 20 psi.
Of course if the engines stalls your no worse off than if you had a belt driven pump. I posted this info some time ago. I'll see if I can find the link and post it.
In addition your question about a new rack vs a used one,,,,, in either case if you use the WCF kit you will have to grind off the driver side mount on the rack so I felt better hacking on a used rack versus a new one and voiding the warranty not to mention returning an unusable core.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
I have the West Coast Fiero P/S setup and it uses the Camaro rack. I have the battery box up front and it basically sits right on top of it. I'm using the stock P/S Pump on my N* to drive it and have had no problem with it for two years running now. I'm not for sure on the rack specifics, but it is very nice. Every one who owns a Fiero that I have let drive mine loves it. It's not overly boosted and feels like a sports car should with nice weighting. If you want to make the drive over to Fayetteville you are more than welcome to check mine out.
If wired by the above schematic the pump will run when the ignition is in the run position. However I wired mine with a pressure switch tee'd into the oil pressure line below the oil sender. I ran my power wire for the pump thru this switch so the p/s wont run unless you have oil pressure, hence the engine has to be running. It's an adjustable switch and I believe I set it to 20 psi.
Of course if the engines stalls your no worse off than if you had a belt driven pump. I posted this info some time ago. I'll see if I can find the link and post it.
In addition your question about a new rack vs a used one,,,,, in either case if you use the WCF kit you will have to grind off the driver side mount on the rack so I felt better hacking on a used rack versus a new one and voiding the warranty not to mention returning an unusable core.
Edit to add; I misread your post. The pump does run when the engine is running but it's at a very low rpm, barely noticeable.
Spoon
[This message has been edited by Spoon (edited 10-30-2014).]
In addition your question about a new rack vs a used one,,,,, in either case if you use the WCF kit you will have to grind off the driver side mount on the rack so I felt better hacking on a used rack versus a new one and voiding the warranty not to mention returning an unusable core.
Spoon
Has anyone tried fabricating a new driver side mount for the cross member rather than modifying the rack? I don't like the idea of modifying the rack which makes return impossible if it is defective or fails while under warranty.
Has anyone tried fabricating a new driver side mount for the cross member rather than modifying the rack? I don't like the idea of modifying the rack which makes return impossible if it is defective or fails while under warranty.
I think this is what my mechanic ended up doing with mine. He had to cut out a portion of the plastic tub that the spare tire normally sits in to make it work though. I didn't mind b/c I don't really use that for anything but the battery now. I get mine back from the paint shop tomorrow so I'll try and take some pics and post them this weekend.
Been thinking about adding PS, but not for the low speed end; more to maybe help with the tramlining at highway speeds. ... Mike
Tramlining? Following grooves in the road? I actually sold a Fiero (an 85 GT) because of that. Wore me out, whenever I drove it. (This was before I knew anything about Fiero alignment "issues".) I have heard that different tires can help, but I cannot verify that statement. I have to think that PS would help, but not fix the issue completely. (I'm guessing that you have huge tires, based upon your screen name.)
So my theory on the jittery steering (as I like to call it...) at speeds above 60 mph. I have thought for the longest it was due to the front end lift from the hot air trapped behind the radiator. Well, today I picked my car up from the paint shop with the new hood with heat extractors. So, naturally I took it out to I-95 to test my theory. My theory held. Noticeably less jitters coming through the steering wheel. Even at speeds slightly higher than 70 mph
[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 11-04-2014).]
Got sidetracked. Thinking about jumping back into this.
But things just got curiouser...
quote
Originally posted by Fieroking: ... the adapters are not necessary. I installed that (F-body) rack in a Fiero and found out that all you need to do is cut a inch off the Camero tie rod end and run a tap all the way to the bottom of the hole to clean the threads then install. It is much easier than using a adapter and the Fiero tie rod.
Okay... Now I'm confused. I was prowling Rockauto. They list the same part number for the Fiero (all years) and the F-body outer tie rod ends. The 88 Fiero rack (according to their info) is 51" in length. (The 87 rack is ~44-47 inches, incuding the inner tie rods.) The F-body is 52.5". What the hell? In all cases, that makes the F-body rack too long. For an 88, this would seem to back up Joe's findings. For an earlier car, it's just absurdly too long.
I question why the adapters are even necessary, if the ends are the same, and the F-body rack is too long, anyway.
(I have referred back to the "power steering" threads, and haven't seen any mention of this. I may be missing something. Of course, Rockauto could be wrong, too.)
Anyone?
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-14-2015).]
Those lengths are with the inner tie rod ends installed. The important length is from center to center of the inner tie rod end pivots (the ball joint just past the threaded connection to the rack). No manufacturer will list that information for some reason.
Are the F-body inner tie rods removed and replaced with the Fiero inners? Using the adapters? Maybe that's what I'm missing.
You need to put the Fiero inner tie rods on the F-Rack using the thread x thread adapters from WCF. These adapters make the F-Rack the same length as the stock Fiero rack so you end up with the same steering geometry.. "so to speak."
I've heard WCF is a bit slow getting things shipped so you may want to order real soon!!
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
You don't have to change the f body rack inner tie rods. The Camaro tie rod ends fit the Fiero knuckle. What I did was cut an inch off of the outer tie rod ends and cleaned the threads with a tap, they are threaded deep enough that after the one inch is removed the front end can be aligned. Much easier than adapting the fiero inner tie rod to the f body rack.
Joe Sokol
------------------ 85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II 88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby) www.fieroking.com
What about the geometry? Do the Camaro inner tie rod pivots end up in the same place as the Fiero rack? Is the rack centered? Both in physical location, and number of turns? I certainly intend to check your method before I go to the trouble to swap rod ends and use the adapters. Seems like if it was this easy, folks wouldn't have reinvented the wheel. Errr... rack. Is your car an 88? (If that matters.)
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-16-2015).]
NOTE: This information is for adapting a 93-99 F-body rack into an 84-87 Fiero. I do not have an 88 and therefore do not have 88 specific data. I didn't know the OP was looking for 88 specific information until after I posted this.
OK. I compiled some data on this because I am planning to do this swap as well. I have not collected any parts yet, but I have researched the parts and have discovered a few things:
The Fiero inner tie rod end has a female 14MM thread (forgot the pitch) where it attaches to the rack. The F-body inner tie rod end has a male 18MM thread (forgot the pitch) where it attaches to the rack. The Fiero and F-body inner tie rod ends have the same 14MM thread (forgot the pitch) at the outer end, where it screws into the outer tie rod end. The F-body inner tie rod end is longer than the Fiero inner tie rod end. The Fiero and F-body outer tie rod ends have the same small and large diameters on the tapered stud, but the F-body stud taper is longer, making the taper angles different.
I have pictures to illustrate all of this, but they are on another computer and I won't be able to post them until tomorrow. The above information, however, does tell me a few things:
The F-body outer tie rod end will screw right on to the Fiero Inner tie rod end, but the taper angle on the stud will not fit the Fiero 84-87 knuckle correctly. The Fiero outer tie rod end will screw right on to the F-body inner tie rod end, but that will make the assembly too long (unless the F-body inner tie rod end is cut and re-threaded. The Fiero inner and outer tie rod end assemblies can be screwed onto the F-body rack with adapters that have a 14MM female thread on one end and an 18MM male thread on the other. I do not know how long these adapters should be to maintain the correct center to center length between the inner tie rod end pivots.
I'm looking into shortening the F-body inner tie rod ends on my swap. It may even be possible to do this without taking them off the rack.
Now, as far as mounting the rack- does anyone have any detailed info on that? I will post the pics I have as soon as I can get to the other computer.
------------------ 1986 SE Aero coupe.
3.4 DOHC swap is complete and running, now just have to finish the rest of the car...
[This message has been edited by tesmith66 (edited 11-16-2015).]
Based on mcaanda's post in my mall thread... (Thanks very much Allen)
===================== Here's an image that I have had saved since 2008 that was used to create the adapters for the F-Body racks that may / may not help:
--Allen ==================== ...there is only about +/- .8" difference between the right side and left side. With the rack in position, and the wheel centered, that difference could easily be made up by adjustment of the outer tierod ends. If the inner tierod pivots are close enough to where the Fiero's are, we might be in business. And yes, I understand that the ends won't be exact, but I'm not convinced that it will make a difference. But nothing is cast in stone. This is still a learning experience for me.
I will be using a newest-gen Toyota MR2 electric pump, mounted in the front compartment, since the battery is already there. There should be a VSS signal there, someplace, too, since the 88 EHPS was going to need it.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-16-2015).]
The Fiero and F-body outer tie rod ends have the same small and large diameters on the tapered stud, but the F-body stud taper is longer, making the taper angles different.
The F-body outer tie rod end will screw right on to the Fiero Inner tie rod end, but the taper angle on the stud will not fit the Fiero 84-87 knuckle correctly.
Now, as far as mounting the rack- does anyone have any detailed info on that? I will post the pics I have as soon as I can get to the other computer.
Edit - Both Rockauto and Autozone show the 88 Fiero and the 97 F-body as using the same tie rod end. It shows the earlier Fieros using a different part.
As far as mounting the rack, I'll post what I come up with. I have a friend who is a good welder and fabricator. He may be able to do something that is reproducible. Since WCF is doing a bolt-on kit, I have to believe that this is not too difficult for someone who knows what they're doing.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-16-2015).]
I built the front end of a 88 Fiero using a F body rack from O'Reilly's with the Camaro outer tie rod ends that I had modified as I said in my post. To mount the rack I welded pads to the cross member and bolted the rack in place. The car has been driving for 2 years with no problems.
Joe Sokol
------------------ 85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II 88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby) www.fieroking.com
So I have lots of room available, it would seem.
