I got my Camero SS rack and took it apart to compare to my 88 rack.
First problem was that the F body rack only has 4.5 inchs of travle and the 88 rack has 5.5. If this rack were instaled it would signifigantly reduce the turning radius.
Other issues can be worked out but to make this rack work the steering arms will need to be modified. The tie rod end (ball joint) hole in the steering arm will need to be redriled closer to the hub so the wheel will have full range of motion.

What a bummer dude.....I was rooting for ya. I want PS too.

Phil

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87 FIERO GT 2.8 5spd

If you found my advice helpful, please take the time to give me a positive rating. Thanks

I may take a set of knuckles to the machine shop to have them modified.
But there is no way to modify the rack for more travel, the cylnder can not acomidate any more piston travel. If I were to have the steering arms filled and redriled I may be able to get more wheel travel and reduce the steering wheel lock to lock from the stock Fiero 3+ to about 2 turns lock to lock.

Not good. I have decided to go with the Merkur rack since I have one already. It looks like the actual mounting won't be that hard. I am looking into these steering rack mount adapters that Jegs lists for putting a pinto rack in race cars. It looks like a set of aluminum collars that bolt around the rack so it can't move laterally when steering...along with grinding some case down to use the stock fiero bushing/strap setup it should work...just don't know about size of pinto rack compared with size of Merkur rack... I gotta give Jegs a call. We shall see.
Nate

I think the xr4ti is the best way to go. But I have this and will try to make it work.

A few things you might want to check, First, see if the 88 actually uses 5.5" of travel. I think it does too. The 84 rack has 6.25" but only uses 4.5" or so. Another thing, take the tie rods off the F bod rack and see where the actual travel stops then take 1/2" off of that for safety. That may be your actual limit, I think. Last I measured the stock travel was limited to 4 7/8" There may be alittle more there. But the piston might be the determining factor as to the useable travel.

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84 Indy Quad 4
88 Silver GT 5 SP

How long are the F-body steering arms compared to the '88 steering arms? That should be a good sanity check.

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

The pre 88's have a steering bump stop at the knuckle, the 88's have a stop in the rack. When the inner tie rods hit the rack body then the wheels are at full travel. There is no other stop on the 88's. The F body rack cylnder only has 4.5 inches between the hydrolic fittings, that is all the travel they are capable of
The steering arms are the make or break for the F body rack on the 88's. They have to be modified or you will not have all the wheel travel of the stock 88 rack.

The f body had 2.25 lock to lock and 2.75 lock to lock ratios. Mine is going to work on my 84? So far I haven't had problems. But time will tell. Of course I haven't worked on it lately cause I'm in Michigan in the winter, and its friggen freezing outside. But I'm close to mounting it. All I have to do now is chop the tie rod ends shorter and re thread them, new balljoints and ends for a camaro, and they'll pop right into the old socket. It'll work rickady, do a good unlife threatning cobble job, that won't fly apart but should work for the most part. Remember Henry Ford and everyone else never made it anywheres without being innovative and taking risks. Oh and the f-body rack is 58" while pre 88 fieros were 52" for entire length with ends.

[This message has been edited by 1985FieroGT (edited 12-09-2003).]

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: The f body had 2.25 lock to lock and 2.75 lock to lock ratios. Mine is going to work on my 84? So far I haven't had problems. But time will tell. Of course I haven't worked on it lately cause I'm in Michigan in the winter, and its friggen freezing outside. But I'm close to mounting it. All I have to do now is chop the tie rod ends shorter and re thread them, new balljoints and ends for a camaro, and they'll pop right into the old socket. It'll work rickady, do a good unlife threatning cobble job, that won't fly apart but should work for the most part. Remember Henry Ford and everyone else never made it anywheres without being innovative and taking risks. Oh and the f-body rack is 58" while pre 88 fieros were 52" for entire length with ends. [This message has been edited by 1985FieroGT (edited 12-09-2003).]

I think you're missing the point. Not all cars were created equal, therefore it doesn't matter how many turns the wheel will make if the rack won't travel enough. A difference in the geometry, turning radius, and rack travel between the two cars can make the swap undesirable. Rickady's doing his homework to make sure he doesn't do a bunch of work and end up with something he doesn't like.

Bryce
88 GT

I dont want to stop others from doing what they think will work for them. I got a Chevette power rack and dont think it will work for what I want it to do.

I got this F body rack and am not sure if it will work eather. It is up to the machine shop, if they can do my knuckels then it will be fine. I am not afraid of doing the undone. Who has done the 3.5? Most think that for the truble I should do a N*. But I want this, It will work for me. I will even use the stock deck lid springs and lots of engine conversions take them out. I think it is all up to the one doing the swap.

As far as the F body rack goes it will be fine if you dont need to make a U turn on a narrow street. I just dont want to give up anything to get something else(larger turning radius for power steering). Bottom line is that this rack will limmit the range of steering motion on 88's and that is not what I want so I am looking into other options. I want a rack that will have the same travel and a higher gear ratio(less turns lock to lock) than the stock 88 Fiero.
I looked at some parts in the back yard and found that the 88 and pre 88 steering arms are almost the same. The 88's are less than .25 longer than pre 88's. How does this affect the F body rack? The pre 88's with an F body rack will turn just a little bit more that an 88. But I think that the F body rack will limmit motion on 85-88's but I dont have an 84 to look at. So cant say how it will work there. The rack is just one part of the steering system, I am trying to look at the whole system and get parts that will work together as if they came from the factory together.
Yes I can get it to bolt on the car but I want it to work better than the stock system, or it just aint worth doing.

Put one on the back too. That will increase your turning radius.

No not the F body rack in the back, that is where I will use the steer by wire Denali rear steer rack But I will have to do a few more mods to make that work on an 88 LOL.

I'm reviving this thread because Rickady actually has one of these racks in his hands and in some of the other threads there was some information that didn't match my measurements.

I have an '85 GT with suspension code WS5 in the shop right now and I took some measurements and looked at it pretty closely.

In one of the other threads it was reported that the Fiero was something like 3.5 turns lock to lock. Maybe some are, but the one in THIS car is about 2.6 turns lock to lock. The reason I brought this thread back is that Rick reported that the F body rack has 4.5 inches of travel. After measuring the stroke in the rack in the '85 GT, it measures out at about 4.2" of travel.

The only issue left (other than mounting) is if the length of the F body rack at the inner pivot points is comparable to the Fiero rack. Rodney posted that the rack width was about 29". I measured this one and if you go to the PIVOTS, that's very close, but if you go to the end of the rack where the tierod screws in, it's closer to 27.5".

My question is, since you have one Rick, what is the length of the F body rack either at the pivot or where the tie rod screws onto the rack?

John Stricker

I have both Fiero GT racks, an 87 and an 88 that are out of the car and I can get any info you want on them.
I also have a Chevette rack and an F body WS6 rack that are also out of the car. So I can get any info on them that you want.
I dont have any pre 88 Fieros any more, I am now an 88 only person. So I cant help you with the actual lock to lock turns in a pre 88. But my 88GT is good to go.
So I will get pics and dimentions so you will have no doubt were I get the dimentions from.

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Rickady88GT QuadCam 3.5 V6

I too is interested in doing a power steering swap so here are two interesting articles:
www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/030221.html
http://diablo.kitcarmagazine.com/Current%5FProgress/Exterior/PowerSteering.asp
I am following these to make a calculated way to go ,Madcurl recently added custom PS to his car may he could chime in with some more info.

[This message has been edited by Master Tuner Akimoto (edited 02-18-2004).]

One thing I can add in here is that if we find a rack that is just a little too short I can have inner tie rods made with the swivel end longer if need be to put the ball sockets out to the correct width.

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PLEASE NOTE MY NEW ADDRESS

Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
www.rodneydickman.com
New address and phone number after June 20,2003:

Rodney Dickman's Fiero acc's
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
(262) 835-9575

Rodney,

This is one thing I wondered about. In one of the threads, one of the members made some adapters to change the F body rack over to the Fiero tie rod ends. IIRC, they welded them, something I'm not thrilled about doing on steering components. Also, IIRC, the reason they were welded was because their lathe wouldn't cut metric threads. My lathe will cut them, so it wouldn't be THAT big of a deal to make a threaded adapter that required no welding. Having the correct tie rod ends and the proper length tie rods from you would make things a matter of adapting the mountings and, IMHO, keep things much safer than cobbling something up.

Rick,

I really don't need anything off of the Fiero rack. I have mine in the '85 right now that I won't be using because my next project WILL have power steering, so I can measure, cut, whatever to my heart's content. What I really need is the length of the rack itself. Since you already posted the stroke, I know that's compatible with the Fiero, but we still need to get the length CORRECT to eliminate bump steer.

I've looked at the Chevette rack and it can be made to work, but it's not a fast ratio at all and needs some modificatons so if we need to modify, I'd prefer to do one with a ratio that I want to have anyway. If you can get pictures with dimensions that would be a HUGE help, as well as just what year rack from an F body you have since they apparently changed in '98.

I've seen the discussion about the turns "lock to lock". They've revolved around the rack stroke, arm length, etc. It's true that they all are related when trying to determine the turns lock to lock. In my '85, movement of the rack of about 4.25" puts the spindles on the stops each way. That is about 2.6-2.7 turns of the wheel. The arm length is going to stay the same not matter what rack I use so the only variable is in how many turns it takes to make the rack move 4.25" from one side to the other. That will tell you what the turns lock to lock will be. If you want to take the time to do a quick measurement of that, it would be helpful in comparing how fast the steering is relative to the Fiero rack.

A question for Rodney, though. Is there a "fast" and "slow" rack for the Fiero? Reason I ask is that I *KNOW* what mine has but I've came upon several posts searching today that show different rates, some as high as 3.5 turns.

Thanks for the help with the dimensions Rick, and the tie rod ends if we get that far, Rodney.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Rodney: One thing I can add in here is that if we find a rack that is just a little too short I can have inner tie rods made with the swivel end longer if need be to put the ball sockets out to the correct width.

OK here it is.
I took all the mearurements with the pinion shafts centered. One thing to consider is "Where will the pinion shaft be when the rack gear is centered?" If the rack is short you can make a longer extention for one side to keep the input shaft where the Fiero steering shaft is.

As you can see all the racks are at center travle but the inner tierod ends are all at different positions. I only look at the white plastic bump stops that cover the inner tie rod ends. The length of the tierod itself dont matter in the pics because they are not all Fiero tierods. Most conversions will use new Fiero tierods I only looked at the rack gear and rack body for measurements.

This is the left side of the racks when the gear is centered

This is the right side with the rack gear centered

This is the differance between the shaft angle on the F Body and Fiero, Chevette

This how I measured the rack travle

This is a pic of all the racks at full travle

The F Body rack "Body" is 22.25" from stop to stop. The body itself is the steering stop.
The F Body "rack gear" is 27" from stop to stop. The inner tierods have a plastic bushing that acts as a cusion for the bump stop. So this is the lenght of the rack with the inner tierods on it.
The F Body total travel is 4.74
The F Body WS6 takes 2.25 turns lock to lock.
The F Body has 3.75" of rack body on the left side of the pinion.
The F Body has 18.5" of rack body on the right side of the pinion.

The 88 rack body is 24.25"
The 88 rack gear is 29.25
The 88 total travel is 5.1
The 88 takes about 3.4 turns lock to lock
The 88 has 2.75" of rack body on the left side of the pinion.
The 88 has 21.5" of rack on the right side of the pinion.

The 87 rack body is 23.75"
The 87 rack gear is 28.25"
The 87 total travel is 4.6"
The 87 takes about 3.1 turns lock to lock
The 87 has 2.25" of rack body on the left side of the pinion.
The 87 has 21.5" of rack on the left side of the pinion shaft.

The Chevette rack body is 17.75"
The Chevette rack gear is 23 3/8"
The Chevette total travel is 5.65"
The Chevette takes about 3.5 turns lock to lock
The Chevette has 2" of rack body on the right side of the pinion.
The Chevette has 15.75" of rack on the left side of the pinion

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 02-18-2004).]

Somebody needs to find out what Curly had put on his car. It is already installed and looks factory. It is not like a couple of others I have seen that have a new frame welded to hold the rack... Of course, all Curly wants his car for is touring. He is not a racer.. He could be using the F-body rack and not be worrying about the turning radius. There is a pic of the installed rack on one of the threads I made about his car.

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Fiero-Performance.com - New mods for your Fiero from Fiero Performance Bayern in Germany

Rick,

That took quite a bit of time on your part, thanks for making the effort. I see problems with using it on the '88's, but it appears to be pretty darn close for the earlier racks and your dimensions substantially match mine for the rack measurements on my '85 GT (after double checking all mine this afternoon).

The mechanical mounting appears able to be overcome with some ingenuity and it should move the pinion shaft over to the center of the car about 1.5". I'd prefer it not move at all, but if it has to move that's the direction it needs to go to keep interference problems to a minimum.

One thing I didn't see is what year F body rack is this? Is it a pre or post '98 rack?

John Stricker

I dont know much about Curlys but I would like to know what he used.
The rack that I have is a 97 F Body.
I did make one mistake on the 87 rack. I did not add the extra lenght to the rack that comes from the steering damper. I made that change to the post after I saw the mistake.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 02-19-2004).]

If it were possible to modify the steering knuckles, maybe the attachment point of the tie-rod ends could be moved closer to the ball-joint pivot pionts to reduce the travel required from the steering rack. The shorter the distance is from the tie rod pivot to the ball-joint pivot, the less travel that would be required in the steering rack. That's all theory. It may not be practical in reality.

Try the Volvo 240 rack from the eighties. The Aussies use that rack with the RHD conversions. Im sure a power rack from there may work?
S.WIlliams
I guess we should ask AUSFIERO to make sure.

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1988 Fiero Formula T-tops
CJB 143 of 1252 "factory T-top cars"

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: The F Body total travel is 4.74 The F Body WS6 takes 2.25 turns lock to lock. The 88 total travel is 5.1 The 88 takes about 3.4 turns lock to lock The 87 total travel is 4.6" The 87 takes about 3.1 turns lock to lock The Chevette total travel is 5.65" The Chevette takes about 3.5 turns lock to lock

F-body: 4.74/2.25 = 2.106"/turn
'88: 5.1/3.4 = 1.5"/turn
'87: 4.6/3.1 = 1.48"/turn
Chevette: 5.65/3.5 = 1.614"/turn

The Chevtte rack is only slightly faster than the Fiero rack, while the F-body rack is MUCH faster.

Did that '87 rack come from a coupe or a GT? The early cars had two different ratios available: 3.5 L-L in the coupes and 3.0 L-L in the GT's

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck is for those who lack the courage to define their own fate

Good Lord!!!

Well nothing on my end, no money. I'll probably never finish my swap (or the car), but at least I started a revolution with the f-body rack!!!!

Will,

My GT Rack hits the stops on the knuckles at about 2.7 turns lock to lock. I'm sure Rick is right on the 3.1 turns if he's going for the stroke of the rack since it doesn't have any stops to hit external of the rack. After reading the results of Rick's hard work, I'm changing my plans from the Chevette rack to the '97 F body rack. I hope there weren't different ratios available in the F body line so I get the same one Rick is using to measure. It looks to me like if I move the F body rack to the right so the left end is in the correct spot, the differing angle of the pinion will make it end up in almost the same spot (but at a bit sharper angle) as the Fiero pinion. Then I'll just have to make 1 spacer for the passenger side of the rack to make up for the 1.25" difference in the rack length.

I'm already looking for the '97 WS6 rack as we speak. I really like that quick ratio.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Will: F-body: 4.74/2.25 = 2.106"/turn '88: 5.1/3.4 = 1.5"/turn '87: 4.6/3.1 = 1.48"/turn Chevette: 5.65/3.5 = 1.614"/turn The Chevtte rack is only slightly faster than the Fiero rack, while the F-body rack is MUCH faster. Did that '87 rack come from a coupe or a GT? The early cars had two different ratios available: 3.5 L-L in the coupes and 3.0 L-L in the GT's

jstricker, the rack that I have is the WS6 rack. That is the sport rack or in other words the fast rack It came out of a Camaro SS. I got it off of Ebay for $50. It is in really good shape.

Will the 87 rack is out of a GT. The pre 88's have stops on the suspension that limit steering travel, so the lock to lock ratio that I noted wont be the actual lock to lock ratio in the car. The same is true for the Chevette rack when used in a Fiero. The Chevette rack has more travel than all of the racks so the suspension will reach its limit before the rack. I dont know what the lock to lock ratio of this rack would be after it is installed but it will be much less than 3.5 lock to lock.

It must be noted that I only took measurements of the racks. Not of the instaled steering system. So the racks listed may have different manners after insalation. The rack is only one piece of a system, so to be more accurate I would have to instale all of the racks and make measurements in the car.

I am looking for a rack that will be about 2.25 to 2. turns lock to lock. And I dont want to lose any of the stock 88 suspension steering travel. Most of the racks that have fast ratios have less travel.
I drive an Olds Intigue every day to and from work that has 2.25 turns lock to lock and it does not seem unstable or squirrely at all. So I have no problem at all with putting a 2 turn lock to lock rack in my 88GT

quote Originally posted by htexans1: Try the Volvo 240 rack from the eighties. The Aussies use that rack with the RHD conversions. Im sure a power rack from there may work? S.WIlliams I guess we should ask AUSFIERO to make sure.

Volvo 244 works like a charm. Made from about 1977 to about 1989 so plenty of them to go around.

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quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Volvo 244 works like a charm. Made from about 1977 to about 1989 so plenty of them to go around.

The picture you show the Volvo has Right Hand Drive. To convert a Fiero to LHD, does the rack come from a Volvo that is LHD? The reason I ask is a RHD rack have to be flipped and would have to come from a rear-steer car.

Roy

Aus what is the ratio of the Volvo rack?

jstricker did you see the corection I made to the 87 rack gear? From ball joint to balljoint (inner tierod flat surface of the plastic stop bushing) the the 87 rack is longer than the F Body by 1.25. First I measured the distance between the stops. Then I saw my mistake and found that on the right side of the Fiero rack the inner tierod is moved out by 1.5" because of a steering damper mount.

Edit because I make another mistake. Sorry.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 02-19-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Will the 87 rack is out of a GT. The pre 88's have stops on the suspension that limit steering travel, so the lock to lock ratio that I noted wont be the actual lock to lock ratio in the car. The same is true for the Chevette rack when used in a Fiero. The Chevette rack has more travel than all of the racks so the suspension will reach its limit before the rack. I dont know what the lock to lock ratio of this rack would be after it is installed but it will be much less than 3.5 lock to lock.

I know this.
What really matters in how quick a steering rack steers is how far the rack moves with each turn of the wheel. That's what I was pointing out. That number is obviously going to be different between the coupe rack and the GT rack. That's why I was wondering which kind of rack you had.

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck is for those who lack the courage to define their own fate

Ok i dont want to be a dick but why would you want power steering. It isnt like my uncles old stang that didnt have PS that was a ***** to turn around in a parking lot. I just dont under stand why fieros need it. IF they did GM would have out it on. But good luck on the project and i dont want a flame war.

Joe Sokol III

Will I agree with you. But for those out there that dont know I try to explane. Some people still dont know why we want power steering on Fieros. It seems like this debate has been done so many times that everyone should know that we want faster steering ratios for a better sports car feel with out adding more steering effort It aint always about easier steering effort. Fast corners need faster steering.

Oh ok my bad i just thought it was weird that people want it on such a light car. thanks for clearin it up

Joe Sokol III

quote Originally posted by Fieroking: Ok i dont want to be a dick but why would you want power steering.

Nine times out of ten, when someone says "I don't want to sound like a dick..." he's about to say something that will make him sound like a dick. The phrase "With all due respect..." works the same way.

Just spare us, please.

I thought that posting the numbers describing how fast each rack was would be a pretty good hint that we're after faster steering...

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck is for those who lack the courage to define their own fate