I have done tons of research on this and read all the threads I could find on PFF and lots on the interwebs too.
My goal is between 400 and 500whp for my Fiero which is getting a custom suspension and will be a weekend warrior and track day car.
When I drive it, I will drive it pretty hard so reliability is definitely a big factor. Therefore my tune will be on the conservative side.
I am planning on using a turbocharger to get the power levels I am looking for.
My Engine options are:
LE5
LSJ
LNF
The LSJ is a first generation ecotec with a 2L displacement and an M62 supercharger. No VVT. Used ~ $1500-2000
The LE5 is a reinforced second generation engine with I believe thinner cylinder sleeves and a 2.4L displacement. Yes VVT It is NA and there are tons of them. Used ~$300-500
The LNF is a second generation ecotec with a twin scroll Turbocharger and a 2L displacement. Yes VVT Direct Injection Used ~ $2000+
These prices I got off car-parts.com which is how I would realistically locate one of these.
Another option I have is buying a wrecked car though I have no idea where to do that so any suggestions on locating wrecked cars for sale would be great. I do not plan on using the BCM regardless however.
The LSJ is probably the simplest of all because at this point the most tuning information is known about these and there is the most tuning aftermarket support for them (please correct me if incorrect) it does not have VVT and it has a lower CR to begin with and some forged internals. I would be adding a turbo, and I would probably have to replace internals.
The LNF has the most potential in stock form, but it is very expensive compared to the others. Direct Injection makes for more specialized tuning, and VVT adds complication but also good functionality.
The LE5 is very common and available, and I found a 9000mile engine for 450 dollars really close by. It has VVT and I would add a turbo and replace the internals. It has been shown to handle high HP applications on the web, though I do not know how reliable they are at those HP levels. I do like the 2.4L displacement of the LE5 for faster spool time and better off boost power especially because the Fiero can really put power down from a standstill.
I am extremely comfortable with fabrication and I love fabrication and have a lot of tools, so buildings exhaust manifolds or intake manifolds is no problem.
I am however very green when it comes to tuning and engine management. I will definitely be tuning it myself, or getting a baseline tune done at a dyno and then tuning it myself. I do not want to be tied to the BCM at all, I will not be using anything not required to get the engine running. I am definitely looking for advice in this area.
And I am not looking for advice selecting a different family of engines, I want the lightweight low displacement turbo power with lots of space in the engine bay to work on anything.
[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 10-15-2014).]
I have been looking and I cannot seem to locate any good info on Engine Management with these. I have seen people using standalone systems like AEM EMS and Megasquirt3, but there is very little information available on any specifics. I think it would be awesome to build my own megasquirt ECU and I guess MS3 can run the coils? It at least has spark tables I know that much.
The LNF is the one you want for strength as it has excellent internals.
Your BHP targets are ambitious though. I'm not saying you can't get there, but you should replace the pistons (hypereutectic) with forged and the rods with after market stronger items, all of which will add maybe $1500 to your build.
The fueling for the DI system is adequate to a bit over 400 whp but to get much more you'd need to add a 5th conventional injector to supplement full throttle draw. You can also enhance power further by running alcohol bearing fuel, if that is available where you are.
If you are content with 400 whp you can attain that with stock internals using an EFR 6857 turbo with suitable tuning. Beyond that I'd go for new pistons and rods.
I would choose the LE5. It has 20% greater displacement - with all other things being equal (including boost level) the greater displacement will always yield greater HP. Get an aluminum intake manifold for it. If you are looking to get 500HP out of it I think some head work would be required (larger valves, which are available). One of the big reasons I would choose an LE5 is that the engine is port injected, so you can increase the injector size to match your fueling needs. The LNF has no options for injectors, and even though there are people making north of 400HP on LNF engines, I would be wondering what the duty cycle of those injectors are at that power level.
I think there is a lot of wisdom in what BillS said - the issue with the LNF is getting beyond 400hp without buying stuff. If you can be happy at 400hp, I'd go LNF because it can largely do that out of the box. If you're going to be hanging jenky injectors off the manifold and replacing all the internals, all the goodies that come with the LNF will go to waste and the LE5 might become the more attractive option. Don't get me wrong, DI is a great technology and makes for an amazingly drivable engine, but making 250+hp/liter is going to be a pretty high strung engine no matter what. I'd personally be inclined to take the lower tech approach and add some displacement into the equation. Highly tuned DI motors are still quite new. Lower tech gives you the ability to draw on decades of turbo experience.
Still, though, with that kind of HP, the inherent difficulties of mid-engine forced induction, and the little-to-no weight penalty of an LS, sure seems like aiming for 100hp/l is going to make a more drivable car than 250hp/l. I don't even know how you'd effectively cool the intake charge on what would have to be something like 30-40psi of boost. That's the problem all the MR2 Turbo guys in the '90s were facing when trying to make that kind of power. You'd see intercooler tubes running through interiors or intercoolers mounted on the rear deck and all sorts of nonsensical stuff.
Have you driven a strung out turbo car? Don't get me wrong - they're fun - but they can also be a big bummer.
The LE5 has good rods and crank (early versions ,used in the solstice/sky and Cobalt SS) but they have the weak top ring lands on the pistons .So to go over 350 HP you replace the pistons and rods .After that , you wont break anything till over 600 hp or so .Unless you want to rev over 7000 rpm that is .I dont know if the LE5 has piston oil squirters or not , but all ecotec blocks have the passages in them so they can be installed . If you are not going to incorporate the BCM , then you will need an aftermarket EMS .There are quite a few out there now , the AEM is probably the most widely used .The BCM controls the fuel pumps on these motors , so you are going no where with out it . There is no comparison to a 90's turbo car and present day turbo cars .Electronics have tamed these cars so that all but the most extreme ones are easy to drive .Ecotecs are very cool running motors .Air to water intercoolers easily keep the intake temps down , and if you want , water meth injection will help survive higher boost and more timing advance . The LNF will give you a cleaner look in the engine compartment because all the plumbing is already tight to the engine .Getting 400 HP without having to open up the engine is a big bonus as far as I am concerned any way .The LSJ is a great motor if you can find one cheap .To get a mint one and toss the supercharger , pistons and rods and buy all your turbo stuff would end up costing more than a LNF probably .The LSJ has the best crank of the bunch though .
Honestly my biggest reason for not going LNF is dealing with fueling requirements with the DI injection and I am relatively new to tuning and I know that DI is still being explored.
I am going to try and replicate the awesomeness of the LNF with super short, very thick, very ceramic coated twin scroll exhaust manifold to keep temps up, pressure drop low, and twin scroll should help it spool fast.
The Fiero is not that light so I do want a little low end punch which is also attractive with the LE5.
I can pick up new forged rods and pistons for under a grand so the LE5 remains the cheapest. If I had to swap out the crank then maybe it gets close to LNF territory.
I know the LNF has a nicely packaged engine for a turbo engine, but I am looking forward to the challenge of doing a similar replication for the induction system.
I will be making it very easy to access everything and take things apart because of course this will not be the last time I do major work to the car... it never ends...
I think I am going to say no to the LSJ, the only thing I am considering is a LSJ crank in an LE5 to get a nice 2.1, might give it a tiny bump in compression with whatever pistons I choose if I go that route. If the LE5 crank is fine to like 450whp then I will just keep it.
I really doubt I will go meth injection I have never liked the idea.
Can MegaSquirt run the VVT of LE5? The VVT seems awesome because you can really play with the torque curve of the engine. I am going to tune it extensively to roll into boost smoothly and level out to a nice flat torque curve.
I think I have decided with the knowledge I currently have that I want to do an LE5 build.
Now who can talk me out of an LE5? Any complications specific to turbocharging this engine and running it with standalone engine management?
And which standalone systems would you guys recommend?
Originally posted by zkhennings: The Fiero is not that light so I do want a little low end punch which is also attractive with the LE5.
Can MegaSquirt run the VVT of LE5? The VVT seems awesome because you can really play with the torque curve of the engine. I am going to tune it extensively to roll into boost smoothly and level out to a nice flat torque curve.
And which standalone systems would you guys recommend?
The Fiero is actually pretty light, comparatively speaking. I'm not sure why everyone keeps moaning about the weight of the Fiero. In terms of Ecotec making enough power in the low end, go drive some production cars with stock Ecotecs. There are very few cars that came with an Ecotec, and are lighter than the Fiero. J-body, Opel Speedster, and a couple of other very low production cars are all that weighed less than your Fiero does. All the other GM vehicles with Ecotecs are 2900+ lbs.
As for VVT, I don't know if the MS3 does it or not. I don't really know much about the MS3. The new Haltech Elite which is out for sale tomorrow, though, does do VVT (but doesn't do DI), and has lots of cool things for turbos, as well as can do flex fuel with an additional sensor.
I'm not sure which model, ecotec engine, is in the early 2000's Chevy Cavaliers, but you can buy whole, running cars, of this model, for $1500, all day long, in my area. Then you could sell off parts to defer some of the cost, or even scrap it for some dough. As an added bonus, the seats, will work in our cars also, just transfer the seat rails. You don't necessarily have to get one from a wrecking yard. Again, not sure if this ecotec is one of the ones you mentioned above. It's a 4 cylinder, and I know you can get more HP out of them, I have no idea if 4-5 hundred HP is possible though. I'm not familiar with engine model #'s.
Originally posted by jimbolaya: I'm not sure which model, ecotec engine, is in the early 2000's Chevy Cavaliers, but you can buy whole, running cars, of this model, for $1500, all day long, in my area. Then you could sell off parts to defer some of the cost, or even scrap it for some dough. As an added bonus, the seats, will work in our cars also, just transfer the seat rails. You don't necessarily have to get one from a wrecking yard. Again, not sure if this ecotec is one of the ones you mentioned above. It's a 4 cylinder, and I know you can get more HP out of them, I have no idea if 4-5 hundred HP is possible though. I'm not familiar with engine model #'s.
The tuning part is easy. ZZP Performance will do it for you. They have everything you need and need to know to achieve what you want. IMO the LNF is the best way to go though. I had one in my Cobalt SS and loved it. The turbo is mounted directly to the manifold and thus spools so quick turbo lag is non-existent. It's internals can handle up to 500 HP out of the box. All you would need to hit your goal is upgraded map sensors (3 bar), larger injectors, a larger turbo and the zzp tune. I would recommend a water/meth injection system for safety as well though. Also, the intake and exhaust are backward from most cars on the LNF. What this means is the exhaust manifold would be on the trunk side of the Fiero and not the firewall side. This means you could do like Alpha Romero did with the new 4C and use the turbo for the muffler and run the exhaust straight out the back end.
Originally posted by jediperk: All you would need to hit your goal is upgraded map sensors (3 bar), larger injectors, a larger turbo and the zzp tune. I would recommend a water/meth injection system for safety as well though. Also, the intake and exhaust are backward from most cars on the LNF. What this means is the exhaust manifold would be on the trunk side of the Fiero and not the firewall side. This means you could do like Alpha Romero did with the new 4C and use the turbo for the muffler and run the exhaust straight out the back end.
The 4C has the exhaust manifold (and turbo) on the firewall side. It has a cat immediately after the turbo, and I'm pretty sure a muffler on the rear side as well.
There are also no "larger injectors" available for the LNF. To get more fuel you need to add port injection to get fuel into the cylinder prior to the direct injection firing. That of course also reduces efficiency, so you'll also be making less power at that point, than you otherwise would with purely DI providing sufficient fuel.
But the MS3 with MS3X should be able to control the continuous VVT of the LE5
I am not going to use the LNF because I am going to drive this car hard and with no mercy. I just do not know how well the stock internals would hold up in a 400whp+ LNF for years to come. If I am replacing the internals, then there is not much of a point to use an LNF.
LE5 still has oil squirters and the other high tech stuff in the LNF.
Does anybody have any experience or know anyone who has used Megasquirt to run a very modern engine?
I know Megasquirt is going to be difficult but I think that will be really fun. I have lots of Electrical and software engineers that work with me so they could probably help me if I run into serious trouble. I also have access to scopes and lots of other diagnostic equipment at work. I want to do the Megasquirt to get better at EE (I am an ME) and maybe learn some coding too (MS is coded in C) and get good at tuning too!
If the Megasquirt is impossible it seems like there are lots of standalone options to run the motor.
I guess my plan would be to get the MS and engine and try to get the MS to run the stock engine before I build it up. That way if I kill the engine I'm only out like 400 bucks tops (for a used complete LE5)
Also about the ic placement issue in mid engine cars....My mechanic found a way to route the IC piping under the car so it doesnt hang too low (there about the same as the coolant pipes, by routing them near the gas tank. So now i can have a front mounted air to air IC. Forced induction FTW!
If you choose the LNF, just buy a set of forged pistons, and a set of rods, and then add a larger turbo (EFR 6758) and you are there. The fueling tables on the LNF have been solved on HP tuners.
I will be heading for about 375 whp (440 bhp) next spring on a stock bottom end.
The L61 2.2 is what all the early GM ecotec race program cars were based on .They eventually got over 1600 HP out of them .With just piston and rod upgrades and an LSJ head gasket , you can push them to 500 HP with a proper turbo setup .Beyond that you need to O ring the block etc etc .I am sure an LE5 will make a great high performance motor , I just have not seen very many of them .So lets see some LE5 builds , I am looking foreword to them .
The 4C has the exhaust manifold (and turbo) on the firewall side. It has a cat immediately after the turbo, and I'm pretty sure a muffler on the rear side as well.
There are also no "larger injectors" available for the LNF. To get more fuel you need to add port injection to get fuel into the cylinder prior to the direct injection firing. That of course also reduces efficiency, so you'll also be making less power at that point, than you otherwise would with purely DI providing sufficient fuel.
The 4 C has no muffler and I was not trying to say that the turbo was not on the firewall side of the 4C I was saying in a fiero the LNF would not be... Here is the link to larger LNF injectors from ZZP : http://shop.zzperformance.c...-Fuel-Injectors.aspx
[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 10-22-2014).]
I am not going to use the LNF because I am going to drive this car hard and with no mercy. I just do not know how well the stock internals would hold up in a 400whp+ LNF for years to come. If I am replacing the internals, then there is not much of a point to use an LNF.
LE5 still has oil squirters and the other high tech stuff in the LNF.
I guess my plan would be to get the MS and engine and try to get the MS to run the stock engine before I build it up. That way if I kill the engine I'm only out like 400 bucks tops (for a used complete LE5)
Just so you are aware, the stock LNF is darnn near bullet proof to 400HP even beating on it. Everything but the pistons are forged. The reason GM only uses 2.0L of displacement for the high output turbo motors and not 2.4L is to have greater cylinder wall thickness for reliability when "beating on it". It won't be the internals you have to worry about if go the LE5 route, it will be the block itself. Again, you should really check out zzp performance.
The L61 2.2 is what all the early GM ecotec race program cars were based on .They eventually got over 1600 HP out of them .With just piston and rod upgrades and an LSJ head gasket , you can push them to 500 HP with a proper turbo setup .Beyond that you need to O ring the block etc etc .I am sure an LE5 will make a great high performance motor , I just have not seen very many of them .So lets see some LE5 builds , I am looking foreword to them .
I read the article on that build, they did A LOT more than just piston and rod upgrades to get 1600 HP....it was a complete build with race gas, new internals, and a whole lotta boost. Built for like 16 runs or something, i'll try to find it again.
Question about the displacement, could you not throw in thicker cylinder sleeves into a 2.4 (if one wanted too) and make it 2.2 or 2.0 and use forged internals for those displacements if one is worried about beating on the block?
FYI, Alpha fab has build boosted stage 3 LE5 ecotec engines up to over 500 -650 hp for cars and sand buggys and uphill racing without any issues. No blowing blocks or stuff like that. (Im sure they upgraded the internals for those though, but not positive)
what i stated was what you need to do to get 500 hp .I know they did a lot more to get 1600 hp .I built the first running turbo ecotec fiero .And there is still no other documented running turbo ecotec powered fiero , LNF , LE5 or L61 . So get yours done and post some pics .
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-23-2014).]
I read the article on that build, they did A LOT more than just piston and rod upgrades to get 1600 HP....it was a complete build with race gas, new internals, and a whole lotta boost. Built for like 16 runs or something, i'll try to find it again.
Question about the displacement, could you not throw in thicker cylinder sleeves into a 2.4 (if one wanted too) and make it 2.2 or 2.0 and use forged internals for those displacements if one is worried about beating on the block?
FYI, Alpha fab has build boosted stage 3 LE5 ecotec engines up to over 500 -650 hp for cars and sand buggys and uphill racing without any issues. No blowing blocks or stuff like that. (Im sure they upgraded the internals for those though, but not positive)
I would not buy an LE5 to throw thicker sleeves in it. That would bump up cost and increase spool time as well as lower off boost power. I would just get an LSJ then.
I have been searching hard for an LE5 block failure and I haven't seen any yet so if anyone finds any please post links.
As far as liner thickness goes which is probably one of the only strength of block differences between the LNF and LE5 its an 88mm Bore for the 2.4 (98mm stroke) and an 86mm Bore for the LNF (86mm stroke too) so a difference in wall thickness of 1mm. I don't know if Will or someone else with engine mechanical design experience can chime in to say how much of a detriment to cylinder strength this would be... I can't find the cylinder wall thickness...
From the GM performance book for the ecotec (v3) it seems to imply the LNF and LE5 have the same block... It also says the LE5 has an 86mm bore which is wrong though.
I think I will stick with the LE5 and see how far it can be pushed. Worst case scenario if the block blows up on me I will put either an LNF or LSJ block in. I will also leave the crank stock because if any of the rotating assembly is going to break, I would prefer it to be the cranks vs rods or pistons which would probably trash the block if those failed.
I have wanted to pioneer something for a while now so hopefully I get the chance to do that with this swap.
Just because I like to change my mind sometimes... is the DI tuning of the LNF a big roadblock? Have any of you seen an LNF blow up on the interwebs? Not totally set on saying no to the LNF... I would just rather build an engine and do a bunch of fab work, but if it turns out the LE5 won't hold the power....
[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 10-23-2014).]
As far as liner thickness goes which is probably one of the only strength of block differences between the LNF and LE5 its an 88mm Bore for the 2.4 (98mm stroke) and an 86mm Bore for the LNF (86mm stroke too) so a difference in wall thickness of 1mm. I don't know if Will or someone else with engine mechanical design experience can chime in to say how much of a detriment to cylinder strength this would be... I can't find the cylinder wall thickness...
You are reading that wrong. The finished bore size has absolutely no relation to cylinder wall thickness, and the two engines have different blocks, although the basic Ecotec features are common to both.
what i stated was what you need to do to get 500 hp .I know they did a lot more to get 1600 hp .I built the first running turbo ecotec fiero .And there is still no other documented running turbo ecotec powered fiero , LNF , LE5 or L61 . So get yours done and post some pics .
Oh, guess i misread that. Yeah i know! It should be done in a week and a half!!! im hoping to get pics this weekend, i'll post them in my build thread.
How much HP is your ecotec turbo making????
[This message has been edited by 4thfiero (edited 10-23-2014).]
You are reading that wrong. The finished bore size has absolutely no relation to cylinder wall thickness, and the two engines have different blocks, although the basic Ecotec features are common to both.
I may be wrong, but I have read in lots of places now that the blocks are the same between LE5 and LNF and the same casting number which is why I assumed that the difference in bore would be equal to the difference in wall thickness.
I have read that all the parts on LNF and LE5 are physically interchangeable between either block
[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 10-23-2014).]
I may be wrong, but I have read in lots of places now that the blocks are the same between LE5 and LNF and the same casting number which is why I assumed that the difference in bore would be equal to the difference in wall thickness.
I have read that all the parts on LNF and LE5 are physically interchangeable between either block
I think you are right, i was told by Alpha Fab (where i got my LE5) that the LNF and LE5 uses the same blocks
I run a fairly mild tune and I dont have a dyno anywhere near me so judging by my 5.3 0-60 about 200 at the wheels .I have bigger injectors but I never put them in because I am happy with the power I have . Maybe someday I will get the itch to see what I can get out of it but my next project will be more suspension mods .
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-23-2014).]
The Gen 3 block is a huge improvement for GM and solves previous shortcomings of the Gen 1 & 2 versions of the Ecotec motor. In fact, the Gen 3 block itself supports over 500WHP in stock form.
Improvements include: -Cylinder wall bracing that prevents sleeves from breaking out in high HP applications -Sand casting which removes porosity found in the older foam cast Gen 1 and Gen 2 blocks -5 pounds of additional aluminum adding internal structural support and solves the coolant jacket leakage issues with Gen 2 blocks
Per below ZZP Peformance no longer selling GEN II blocks due to failure...
This is a discontinued product we have experienced a high failure rate of the factory coolant passages in the GM Gen 2 blocks. Moving forward, we will only be offering the Gen 1 and Gen 3 blocks. The remaining Gen 2 blocks are being sold at a clearance price with no core charge.
ZZP also offers ported heads with cam upgrades and includes an ecm tune with it. I think I would go this route over a huge turbo when going for 400-500 HP build. Better heads and cams means less need for higher boost to make equivalent power levels.
How much HP are the ZZP engines? I saw something similar but I also think it was on ZZP that they have had failures with the oil and coolant mixing due to an issue with the block, but I have not seen that issue pop up anywhere else so I am not sure what to make of it. On the rest of the internet it looks like the LNF and LDK use the second gen block so which information is correct?
How much HP are the ZZP engines? I saw something similar but I also think it was on ZZP that they have had failures with the oil and coolant mixing due to an issue with the block, but I have not seen that issue pop up anywhere else so I am not sure what to make of it. On the rest of the internet it looks like the LNF and LDK use the second gen block so which information is correct?
LNF and LDK are 3rd generation. ZZP has built turbo ecotec's to over 800HP. They have everything from upgraded blocks to ported, polished 3 angle valve grind heads and cam packages to upgraded turbo's and will send you a tune to run what ever you get from them safely. If you are using an 06-07 2.4 you are probably good to 350WHP without any issues to the engine. The issues are going to be on the drivetrain side of things b/c boosted ecotec's tend to make a good bit more TQ than HP and they make peak TQ between 2000-2600 rpm depending on the application. GM's stage 1 tune that takes a stock LNF from 260HP to 295HP increases the TQ to roughly 320. If you call them and tell them what your goal is they will explain in detail exactly what it will take. 3800 and ecotec is what they do...
[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 10-27-2014).]
LNF and LDK are 3rd generation. ZZP has built turbo ecotec's to over 800HP. They have everything from upgraded blocks to ported, polished 3 angle valve grind heads and cam packages to upgraded turbo's and will send you a tune to run what ever you get from them safely. If you are using an 06-07 2.4 you are probably good to 350WHP without any issues to the engine. The issues are going to be on the drivetrain side of things b/c boosted ecotec's tend to make a good bit more TQ than HP and they make peak TQ between 2000-2600 rpm depending on the application. GM's stage 1 tune that takes a stock LNF from 260HP to 295HP increases the TQ to roughly 320. If you call them and tell them what your goal is they will explain in detail exactly what it will take. 3800 and ecotec is what they do...
Ok we both do not have the full story
The LNF is a Gen 2 block, but 2012+ LNF has the LDK block which is a 3rd Gen block and is much stronger and less porous than the Gen 2 block. The Gen 2 block is plenty strong however but the coolant passages were enlarged by GM to improve coolant flow and they removed too much material for the LE5 with its thinner cylinder walls and this is the main issue.
My Fiero is my down and dirty project car and while I need lots of info on these engines and their specifications and what they need to get running and tuned properly, I am not looking for a nice boxed solution because that would defeat the purpose of why I work on my Fiero which is an outlet for pure creativity. I may use ZZP fro some valve train parts however.
I may then be able to either re-sleeve an LE5 (something I said I wouldn't do ) Or I will have to buy an LDK block and shove LE5 internals into it and head on top of it which seems like the best solution.
I have seen the block brand new for under $1000 so LE5 + Used LDK block + forged rods and pistons ~ $1800 or so if I am smart with my shopping and it will be an incredibly strong engine.
The LNF looks better and better as this price gap closes but I really want to undertake this whole project myself and not depend on someone else to tune the DI/ spend fortunes upgrading DI Injectors (Edit to say they are not that expensive).
I will most likely get an LE5 and get it running with MS3 in the Fiero and then build it in the LDK block and hope the 2.1 it becomes still spools the turbo close to as fast.
With my WRX the ej205 (2.0) can be stroked to a 2.1 with the STi crankshaft (STi is a 2.5) and both 2.1 and 2.5 have very similar spool characteristics AKA stroke affects spool more than bore (at least for Boxer engine)
Edit to say:
I could just get a complete LDK shortblock for $1500 and put a $200 LE5 head on it, and save a butt load of effort if this is feasible
[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 10-27-2014).]
Originally posted by zkhennings: Ok we both do not have the full story
The LNF is a Gen 2 block, but 2012+ LNF has the LDK block which is a 3rd Gen block and is much stronger and less porous than the Gen 2 block. The Gen 2 block is plenty strong however but the coolant passages were enlarged by GM to improve coolant flow and they removed too much material for the LE5 with its thinner cylinder walls and this is the main issue.
Where are you getting your info? The LNF and LDK are both Gen 2 AFAIK, and the LTG is the Gen 3 replacement of both of those engines, and the LHU (e85 version). Some 2013 models may have had a Gen 2 engine, but all 2014+ 2.0s are the LTG AFAICT. I don't think any LNF or LDK got a Gen 3 block, as there are, I think, incompatible changes in the block with some equipment used on the Gen 2 engines.
Edit to say that ZZP and everyone else are dumb because it is still a Gen 2 block but the European version which is sand cast instead of foam like the earlier Gen 2 blocks. I think they have a few other differences as well. The true Gen 3 blocks are much different so the LE5 head could bolt up to a "Gen 3" LDK/LNF shortblock... I don't understand however because that seems to imply the LE5 got the stronger block as well since the foam cast US version was discontinued in 2012... So maybe I just need a later model LE5 engine... I will look into this now
[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 10-27-2014).]
Edit to say that ZZP and everyone else are dumb because it is still a Gen 2 block but the European version which is sand cast instead of foam like the earlier Gen 2 blocks. I think they have a few other differences as well. The true Gen 3 blocks are much different so the LE5 head could bolt up to a "Gen 3" LDK/LNF shortblock... I don't understand however because that seems to imply the LE5 got the stronger block as well since the foam cast US version was discontinued in 2012... So maybe I just need a later model LE5 engine... I will look into this now
There is no Gen 3 LDK/LNF block, though. The LDK is a slightly higher output version of the LNF for the Euro market, and the LHU is the LDK with flex-fuel support, for the US market, and slightly closer to LNF rated output. They are all Gen 2 engines. The LNF may have been deprecated in 2012 in favor of the LDK, with production of LNF being shut down in the US, so that if one ordered a replacement engine after that time, it would actually be the LDK. The LDK has been around since 2009 though. It's not a Gen 3 block.
The LTG is the Gen 3 engine, and available since 2013 model year introduction of some cars.
The LE5 was also discontinued in 2012. It is not in any 2013+ model vehicles. The LTG replaces the LNF/LDK/LHU 2.0 engines, and the LCV/LKW 2.5 engines replace the 2.4 Ecotecs.
There is no Gen 3 LDK/LNF block, though. The LDK is a slightly higher output version of the LNF for the Euro market, and the LHU is the LDK with flex-fuel support, for the US market, and slightly closer to LNF rated output. They are all Gen 2 engines. The LNF may have been deprecated in 2012 in favor of the LDK, with production of LNF being shut down in the US, so that if one ordered a replacement engine after that time, it would actually be the LDK. The LDK has been around since 2009 though. It's not a Gen 3 block.
The LTG is the Gen 3 engine, and available since 2013 model year introduction of some cars.
The LE5 was also discontinued in 2012. It is not in any 2013+ model vehicles. The LTG replaces the LNF/LDK/LHU 2.0 engines, and the LCV/LKW 2.5 engines replace the 2.4 Ecotecs.
I know there is no Gen 3 LNF/LDK which is why I was referring to it as "Gen 3" and said ZZP is dumb because ZZP on their website calls it a Gen 3 block which is where the confusion is originating. It is actually a better made Gen 2 block with sand casting instead of foam casting and therefore far less porous as well as it has an additional 5lbs of bracing material in the block.
And since it is actually a Gen 2 block I think I could just get an LE5 head and a LDK shortblock and mate them. This is what I am trying to figure out currently.
) Or I will have to buy an LDK block and shove LE5 internals into it and head on top of it which seems like the best solution.
