I will be ditching the M90 at some point, but for at least next season it will be staying on, so I do NOT want to buy any kind of S/C intercooler.
I already have a 340LPH fuel pump, and I plan on 80lb injectors and E85 as the fuel and 1.9 ratio Rockers. would starting with a 2.8" pulley be to ambitious.
I would like to touch the 11's before the blower comes off if possible
I would really like to convert to E85 as well as it is readily available here in Colorado Springs slightly cheaper than gas and basically race fuel. Is it hard to tune for E85?
Yea, it's cheaper per gallon but you will but your consumption will be up 20-30% more. It's becoming more popular as an alternative to race gas because of it's resistance to knock and the fact that it is road legal. and even with E85 about $3.00 a gallon here plus 25% more consumption it will still be less $$ than the $8.50 a gallon we pay here for Purple Cam2 (105 octane leaded)
What is your ultimate performance goal considering the size injectors you plan on using even with E85 considering the stock injectors are not run at the edge of performance limits from the factory. I run 60s on gas and at the most have only hit ~30% duty cycle.
When its all said and done, the power adder will be a Holset hx40 with a water/ air heat exchanger type intercooler in the trunk. I don't think 500whp is out of the question But for atleast next spring and summer I'd like to be in the h 11's with the m90. Thats why I don't want to do any supercharger specific upgrades like an I/C. Probably just a northsart TB & MAF and a mild cam like the VS convert over to e85 and the smallest possible pulley and whatever it is it is unroll I go turbo.
What stations around you are selling E85. Later after my project, I'd like to try some just for giggles. Maybe a 2/8 gallon mix just to bring the octane up, but I don't expect much. Just an opinion, but I think you will be happier in the long run with a turbo if your doing it just for 1/4 times.
[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 11-12-2013).]
If I recall correctly when reading through some of his posts, he was running a Regal in the 11's with E85, seems like he is in the process of putting said motor in a Fiero.
start with a 3.2 pulley as long as you have the basic mods (headers, intake, tuning capabilities, wideband, aeroforce, ect) With those mods, corn with 65lb inj's and a 255lph pump at least you should be able to rock a 3.2 with high timing. If you can get 18-20* of timing and a 11.2-11.5AFR then drop pulleys. Keep your timing high, AFR solid, knock down, then pulley down to repeat the process.
FastBlack- I live about 40 mins from you just north of the boarder! ------------------ 11.8@115mph 1/4 mile 1999 Regal GSX being demodded for swap into a 87 Fiero GT. 11 sec pass>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQT4X2eBlR8
[This message has been edited by djlamp14 (edited 11-13-2013).]
What stations around you are selling E85. Later after my project, I'd like to try some just for giggles. Maybe a 2/8 gallon mix just to bring the octane up, but I don't expect much. Just an opinion, but I think you will be happier in the long run with a turbo if your doing it just for 1/4 times.
Oh I am going big turbo, but I have to throw some $$$ at the suspension and brakes first or I'm going to die. So I just can't swing the turbo swap for next season. I just want to max out the m90 till then.
Zzp says 3.0" pulley on stock heads and a big cam, I say they are too cautious
I think with the 80 lb injectors, 2.8" pulley, E85, 1.9 rockers, some extra water/meth injection and a few hours on the dyno it will be fine for atlest the 2800 miles I'll drive next summer.
meth is a epic waste of time unless direct injected. Been done too many times with poor results. Our intakes don't work out well with a single to two nozzles.
start with a 3.2 pulley as long as you have the basic mods (headers, intake, tuning capabilities, wideband, aeroforce, ect) With those mods, corn with 65lb inj's and a 255lph pump at least you should be able to rock a 3.2 with high timing. If you can get 18-20* of timing and a 11.2-11.5AFR then drop pulleys. Keep your timing high, AFR solid, knock down, tpulldown to repeat the process.
FastBlack- I live about 40 mins from you just north of the boarder!
Good info thanks, I have a meeting with the guy that owns the local shop and dyno, Saturday morning, I have a feeling he's going to say the same thing.
Good luck with the dyno shop. I never hear good things about them. They never seem to get 3800's tuned right. Often times they just bang PE tables until the fueling gets "close enough" then call it a day lol. I would highly suggest you locate a local 3800 tuner. They will more than likely do a much better job for less. Simple fact being they have tuned more 3800's than Joe Shmoe working at the dyno shop. My 2c
FastBlack- I live about 40 mins from you just north of the boarder!
I actually get up to Grand Meadow quite a bit, my friend and her boyfriend own The Bridge Club. If you ever see a black GT Fiero, wave me down. May come knocking on your door sometime too as a 3800 SC is in my future I've been waiting for the stock 2.8 to finally give up for a few years now but the danged thing just keeps ticking.
[This message has been edited by fastblack (edited 11-13-2013).]
"tuning" 3800s is probably one of the most overrated things in the community. I have ran every combination of tuning crap for years and tuned MANY cars to finally realize that GM engineers actually knew what they were doing.
It would too expensive for me to have someone tune a PCM for what you want to do. You would be constantly tweaking it. Most "tuners" I have read about charge an initial fee for a base tune and more if you want changes. It is totally up to you what you would do. My opinion is for you to learn how to tweak you own. I have a basic idea how the program routines work because I work on cars. With that, I kind of got an idea what to expect on data streams. I would suggest looking at some of the 3D chart examples for TunerPro. Then with a scanner that can read real time data, read you data streams while someone else is driving. Do this after changing things, such as different fuels. After time, that will give an idea, when and what is changing. Then go back to the charts and compare that to what you saw first hand. After which you would have a better idea what you could edit. Timing table, fuel enrichment, Boost pressure ect. There are stock SOAs (safe operating areas) that can be tweaked SOME. With some word of caution, make small changes at a time. Watching knock response would be critical. You would still try to keep you tunes in an area that would stay around safe zones. This does take a good deal of time to get it right. Done wrong, you could be blowing holes in pistons. I have been reading Darkhorizons post and watched his Youtube post. He has a very good hand on what is going on inside of boosted 3800s. However still can't get over that Blazer.
[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 11-15-2013).]
It would too expensive for me to have someone tune a PCM for what you want to do. You would be constantly tweaking it.
damn you are annoying.
I am in the middle of documenting my "tuneless" e85 upgrade in my factory stock GTP. All you need to do is swap to a bigger injector, the o2 sensor can figure out the rest.
I am in the middle of documenting my "tuneless" e85 upgrade in my factory stock GTP. All you need to do is swap to a bigger injector, the o2 sensor can figure out the rest.
That makes perfect sense, If you burn 20% more E85 when compared to regular gas, in theory you could just step up to a 20% larger injector. I just didn't think that that would actually work.
Had a good meeting with the guy that owns the dyno, he seems to know whats going on with 3800's He basically repeated what some of you have already said.
That makes perfect sense, If you burn 20% more E85 when compared to regular gas, in theory you could just step up to a 20% larger injector. I just didn't think that that would actually work.
Had a good meeting with the guy that owns the dyno, he seems to know whats going on with 3800's He basically repeated what some of you have already said.
I wouldnt mess around with dyno tuning stuff unless you are really serious about spending money on it... Gains will not be made on the dyno if you have the correct base tune.
I wouldnt mess around with dyno tuning stuff unless you are really serious about spending money on it... Gains will not be made on the dyno if you have the correct base tune.
I'm not looking to squeeze each and every single horsepower out of the car on the dyno, I'm just not comfortable taking a bunch of tips from strangers on the internet and then taking a stab at it with HP Tuners, don't get me wrong that is exactly what I'm going to do. but I'd like to hand the car (and my laptop) over to someone who can double check that I'm good with KR, im not to aggressive with my AFR's, If and when the car stops making power and when the shift points should be. and make changes as necessary.
The point of this post wasn't Should I or shouldn't I Dyno the car, is was more of a what should I put together as far as Injectors, Pulley & cam .
After a Few E-mails with ZZP (never herd back from Intense) and my meting with the Dyno shop, 80lb injectors are too big also a 2.8" pulley is most likely to ambitious to start off with not impossible but most likely to much to start off with .
at this point I'm thinking that I'll start off with 60lb injectors, ZZP NIC Cam , 3.0" pulley (though i'll have a 2.8" pulley on hand on dyno day ) Northstar throttle body, LS/LT MAF and the most basic of porting/ gasket matching for the TB/ blower, LIM, intake ports & exhaust manifolds (nothing fancy mostly gasket matching & cleaning up the exhaust manifolds.
I wouldnt mess around with dyno tuning stuff unless you are really serious about spending money on it... Gains will not be made on the dyno if you have the correct base tune.
I almost forgot, where would someone get a Mail order tune for E85, 60lb injectors, 2.8-3.0" pulley, NIC cam on stock heads & no I/C? Not trying to be a smart @$$, if there is somebody out there that can throw a decent PCM together that can run that combo i'll gladly give it a try.
Get the 80's if you ever plan putting a turbo on. There is no point in buying injectors twice. They cost the same if you do some looking around.
You're aren't going to get an kr feedback from the pcm with E85. You will most likely pop a head gasket if something is off.
DH has a deep down fear of a dynamometer that stems from a traumatic childhood experience. If the tuner is familiar with 3800's then there probably isn't too much to gain on the dyno when using e85 to be "worth it". It would be neat for science to see what changes make more or less power but I doubt he is going to release any of that information. The tuner will more likely put it in what he thinks is a safe zone negating any use of a dyno.
I almost forgot, where would someone get a Mail order tune for E85, 60lb injectors, 2.8-3.0" pulley, NIC cam on stock heads & no I/C? Not trying to be a smart @$$, if there is somebody out there that can throw a decent PCM together that can run that combo i'll gladly give it a try.
I would just get a zzp pcm if it was me. Ive tuned that same setup a few times, and it requires nothing special, but I usually disable the narrowband.
Well I got my car up and running, I ended up running out of time to get on a dyno and just have a Base tune from ZZP. and either 80lb injectors are too much for pump gas or I have a fairly serious mechanical issue. the car starts fine and idles right at 7.6 - 7.7 AFR and it looks like about 16deg of total timing. it's ulgy. I'm thinking about taking darkhorizons advice and coping some tables over from a stock GTP and seeing what happens. I'm going to end up fouling out my plugs and O2's at this rate.
Seems like ZZP programmed 4 e85 and you are running 93 octane pump gas? 16 deg timing is fine. You basically have a big mismatch somewhere as the injector size needs to match what you are running. what mods are on your zzp tune?
quote
Originally posted by 1fast2m4:
Well I got my car up and running, I ended up running out of time to get on a dyno and just have a Base tune from ZZP. and either 80lb injectors are too much for pump gas or I have a fairly serious mechanical issue. the car starts fine and idles right at 7.6 - 7.7 AFR and it looks like about 16deg of total timing. it's ulgy. I'm thinking about taking darkhorizons advice and coping some tables over from a stock GTP and seeing what happens. I'm going to end up fouling out my plugs and O2's at this rate.
Well I got my car up and running, I ended up running out of time to get on a dyno and just have a Base tune from ZZP. and either 80lb injectors are too much for pump gas or I have a fairly serious mechanical issue. the car starts fine and idles right at 7.6 - 7.7 AFR and it looks like about 16deg of total timing. it's ulgy. I'm thinking about taking darkhorizons advice and coping some tables over from a stock GTP and seeing what happens. I'm going to end up fouling out my plugs and O2's at this rate.
Your ZZP tune should be pretty close.. unless you told them something incorrectly.
Make sure your injector table is setup for 80s and 93 octane... 80s and 93 are not really the best of friends but it does work ok, I would turn the idle speed up to 1000 or 1100 if possible.
When you say "base" tune do you mean stock GTP 36# injectors and 99+ MAF for 91-93 pump gas? If so you need to put those on before the car will run correctly with pump gas. then when using e85 you would put a 42.5# injector on because you need ~25% more fuel. If your base tune is programmed for 42.5# injectors then you would put 60# injectors on. Also, it would be a good idea to reset your fuel tables when switching to e85. the o2 sensor will make adjustments to a ok level tune when your in the ball park. However, If you are way off on injector or MAF tables for your hardware then you need another tune.
I went to a Turbo Buick event in Norwalk a number of weeks ago and the subject of E85 fuel came up. One of the common complaints about E85 I heard from people who consistently run it as a race fuel substitute is that it is difficult to find a reliable and "true" E85 (85% Ethanol) blend from your average fueling station. Most of the E85 pumps around there (and some here) have a sticker on them that say "contains at least 70% ethanol" which means it may not be the full 'advertised' 85% ethanol content. This means if it is less, the "octane" would likely be less as well. The people I conversed with at the event who regularly use E85 say they have their own measuring equipment to actually check ethanol content of the fuel and then they may mix in some C10 or C16 leaded racing fuel to compensate if they end up getting a poor mix of E85 from the pump - which seems to happen often. The other issue with E85 is that it readily consumes water, and if you get it from a station that has had it sitting in their tank for a long time, you could end up with issues there.
On the plus side, ethanol burns cooler than gasoline so the reduced exhaust gas temperatures would certainly benefit a boosted engine.
On the negative side, you had better make sure EVERYTHING in your fuel system is compatible with ethanol. Sadly, the stock Fiero sending unit is not and neither are a lot of other components in the typical Fiero 3800 swap's fuel system. Occasional use probably wouldn't hurt much but prolonged use would be a concern. If we could get someone to custom make plastic fuel tanks (to replace the originals) for our Fieros that accepted plastic sending units, that would solve some of the electrolysis issues encountered by people running E85 fuel for prolonged periods.
Concerning the injectors, size accordingly keeping in mind your are going to need 20-30% more flow when running E85.
Concerning the PCM tune, I would never dream of running E85 on a stock tune regardless of what other changes to engine hardware are made. It just seems stupid to me to try to make changes elsewhere to work around having to do a proper PCM tune when a proper PCM tune will ensure your engine is getting the right amount of fuel and spark advance it needs to take full advantage of whatever fuel you are running. Yes the stock narrow band o2 sensor does allow the PCM to adjust the fuel trims to compensate for a wide variety of different conditions (including different fuel blends), but there are limits to how much it can adjust and it also won't make any real-time adjustments to the AFR when in PE (wide open throttle) mode. It can apply learned long-term fuel trim adjustments to PE fueling but it won't update them in response to o2 sensor signal inputs while in PE mode which can be dangerous if something is off.
In short, if you have an engine setup serious enough to take advantage of high octane racing fuel or E85, it would be a very good idea to do some comprehensive PCM tuning work.
-ryan
------------------ OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 05-14-2014).]
I've been running E85 since 2009. I struggled with fuel pumps at first until I got one rated for E85. The deatschwerks dw300. My fuel gauge sending unit went haywire after about a year or so and then completely stopped working. I also would get some black goo on the tips of my injectors. I did some research on the buick forms and found a solution. This past year I started to put Lucas ethanol conditioner fuel treatment when I filled up. After a few tanks the gauge sending unit now works perfectly again. Injector tips were perfectly clean. E85 has deposits unlike regular fuel. Some say that E85 will clean gasoline deposits and gasoline will clean E85 deposits. Deatschwerks actually recommends running a tank of regular fuel a couple times a year.
I've had no other problems with any other component in the fuel system, tank, lines, fuel rail, regulator,e85 rated filter, etc.
The differences on ethanol percentages has had zero effect on drivability and performance. I drive and race my car all year around.
100% of the people that I have talked to that mention problems with ethanol percentages are regurgitating **** they have heard from people that have zero experience.
Originally posted by Justinbart: I've had no other problems with any other component in the fuel system, tank, lines, fuel rail, regulator,e85 rated filter, etc.
Didn't you post a picture of a rusted out Fiero tank sending unit you pulled from your tank a while back??? Was that a pre-existing condition or was that after you had run E85 for some time?
I experimented with E85 before anyone else on this forum did, years ago. Before I started running it, I had my tank out and removed the sending unit for inspection. It looked brand new. I then proceeded to run about 4 tanks of E85 thru my Fiero, then removed the tank again for inspection. What I found was the E85 started to "attack" the OE Fiero sending unit, turning it black. It appeared to be some form of corrosion. I will admit I tried running E85 long before any aftermarket additives were available. The inside surfaces of the tank appeared to be unaffected by the limited use of E85.
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:
The differences on ethanol percentages has had zero effect on drivability and performance. I drive and race my car all year around.
100% of the people that I have talked to that mention problems with ethanol percentages are regurgitating **** they have heard from people that have zero experience.
Well if you are talking to people in your group only as smart as yourself or DH, I would believe that. But I was talking to people about this who have 7 sec turbo V6 race cars and have been doing it longer than you, so I am more inclined to believe what they say over what you have to say about the subject. Especially considering the fact that I seriously doubt you have ever bothered to break out a hydrometer to actually test the E85 you've been running to see how consistent it is. And if you think there is zero performance difference between what a 70% Ethanol blend fuel will give you vs. an 85% Ethanol blend, then you are either seriously misinformed or just oblivious. In either case, you don't know what you are talking about and your comments will be considered worth as much.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 05-14-2014).]
Didn't you post a picture of a rusted out Fiero tank sending unit a while back???
Yes it was "rusty" I think the car sat for 6 years or more before I got it.
This is after a short period on e85. I don't think I have any picture of the stock pump.
This is little over a year. It actually looks like it got cleaner. It has now been just over 3 years since i've dropped the tank. Should be interesting to see what it looks like now if I ever need to drop it again. I have been thinking about installing a second fuel pump.
You'r telling a guy who has been driving a car year round for years...a car that by the way is a fiero that has been as reliable as anything, making a shitload of power on a stock bottom ended GTP motor...that he doesn't have any credibility because you talked to some guys once that have a 'race car' that runs 7's???? Let me guess...they run this thing year round on pump gas from all over the place? Do they run this 7 second race car on the ice and drive it in -40* weather for hours at a time driging it thousands of miles a year? Do you realize how narrow minded that is to base your opinion off someone who only has experience with such a narrow perceptive and tell someone who has been doing for years in more environments that hes an idiot?
Darth, you are a shithead.
[This message has been edited by BMFB (edited 05-14-2014).]
Yes it was "rusty" I think the car sat for 6 years or more before I got it.
This is after a short period on e85. I don't think I have any picture of the stock pump.
This is little over a year. It actually looks like it got cleaner. It has now been just over 3 years since i've dropped the tank. Should be interesting to see what it looks like now if I ever need to drop it again. I have been thinking about installing a second fuel pump.
Well that's great news if there is an additive available that will indeed inhibit the corrosive properties of E85 fuel. I would still be curious to see how it looks now though, and also where that black "goo" is coming from and exactly what it is. I think you should collect some and send it out to be analyzed.
Well that's great news if there is an additive available that will indeed inhibit the corrosive properties of E85 fuel. I would still be curious to see how it looks now though, and also where that black "goo" is coming from and exactly what it is. I think you should collect some and send it out to be analyzed.
Those pictures were from years ago. I started using the treatment over the winter. I think it was this thread on turbobuick that convinced me to try it. (i'm not one to normally try those sort of things)
[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 05-14-2014).]
You'r telling a guy who has been driving a car year round for years...a car that by the way is a fiero that has been as reliable as anything, making a shitload of power on a stock bottom ended GTP motor...that he doesn't have any credibility because you talked to some guys once that have a 'race car' that runs 7's???? Let me guess...they run this thing year round on pump gas from all over the place? Do they run this 7 second race car on the ice and drive it in -40* weather for hours at a time driging it thousands of miles a year? Do you realize how narrow minded that is to base your opinion off someone who only has experience with such a narrow perceptive and tell someone who has been doing for years in more environments that hes an idiot?
Darth, you are a shithead.
To each his own opinion, I guess. But seeing as how you have only posted 18 times on this forum and have only been registered for just over a year, you obviously haven't been around long enough to have read all of the misinformation and total BS Justin and his buddy, DH have posted in the past. You are probably just another nutswinger they found from the Flint area to come register on here to add to their fan club. In any case, have fun with that and see how far it gets you.
I've been waiting for the stock 2.8 to finally give up for a few years now but the danged thing just keeps ticking.
