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3800 vs V8 ??? by Corpsmen Ed
Started on: 07-08-2013 02:51 PM
Replies: 85 (3051 views)
Last post by: chetw77cruiser on 05-12-2014 08:56 PM
Corpsmen Ed
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Report this Post07-08-2013 02:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Corpsmen EdClick Here to visit Corpsmen Ed's HomePageSend a Private Message to Corpsmen EdEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know this have been covered ad nauseum, but here we go again.

As I get closer to chosing my engine for the swap, I can't help but wonder which is the best swap for me. I'm not an expert mechanic. I don't have unlimited fund. I want something reliable, and relatively fuel efficient. But I also want power! And that sounds good, not like a rice burner.

I was originally leaning towards the 3800 sc. It seems the easiest and least costly to swap and delivers decent power. Plus it has good fuel mileage. The problem I'm having is finding one in my area that doesn't have a billion miles and costs less than $1500. The high miles scares me because I don't want to spend $1000 for a motor only to have to rebuild it before I can even install it. I'm not real keen on the whine from the supercharger either.

3800sc?
Pro's:
Good power
Easy swap
Good fuel economy
Reliability
Cons:
Hard to come by with low mileage without breaking the bank
supercharger whine

V8?
Pro's:
V8 power
V8 rumble
Easy maintenance
Cons:Poor fuel economy
More costly swap

So forum friends...What are your thought? What are your favorites? What are your opinions on cost, reliability, fuel mileage, swap difficulty, etc???

Help!
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Arns85GT
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Report this Post07-08-2013 03:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have just done the 4.9 swap. Most guys need to get the wiring harness and ECM from the donor car to make it work.

It is well documented and is one of the easiest swaps. I found I bought an Allante starter and I made custom engine mounts for the front.

In my case, I did a carb conversion at the same time. It is easier though, to just swap in the whole EFI setup from the Caddy.

If you look up my thread you can see what I did. I spent under $1000 for the whole job.

The 3800sc is an equally good engine, but, it is easier to find a mid mileage 4.9 than it is a mid mileage 3800sc.

The carb'd 4.9 has a bit more power than stock. I've had to order in a beefed up clutch because although I can get it going from a standstill nicely, with the current Centerforce II, when I tromp it at 3000 rpm, the clutch lets go.

I'm putting in a Spec II+ which is rated to 417 ftlbs.

These choices are both cheaper than the SBC swap.

Good luck

Arn

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olejoedad
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Report this Post07-08-2013 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
4.9 Cadillac with 4T60-E automatic.

Good power, economy, nice rumble, dependable as a rock and very quick in the stoplight to stoplight grand prix.
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mkman
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Report this Post07-08-2013 04:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mkmanSend a Private Message to mkmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would do the supercharged 3.8l over a small block chevy. My last swap was a TPI corvette engine. It was very expensive, heavy, VERY tight fit in a Fiero, and wasn't very reliable. The build that I am doing now is a 3800sc L67 motor from a grand prix. I picked up the grand prix for $750 due to a rear end collision. I stripped everything out of it that I would need, sold some parts I didn't need, then took the rest to the scrap yard. After all of this, I only have $380 into it, and have a good running engine, computer, wiring harness, etc.

So my advice, as someone who has done the v8 swap and didn't like it, go with the lighter less expensive 3800sc. They have plenty of power, and are inexpensive to upgrade too.
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Report this Post07-08-2013 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jb1Send a Private Message to jb1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have. owned. an sbc swap. 3800sc. and n* and. for the most part. I would have to say I enjoy the 3800sc. car. the most. sorry. for all the... stupid phone. check. with ed morad for. engine and. trans. he has decent prices if you can not find locally
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Report this Post07-08-2013 04:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a SBC "Stroker" just hanging on the engine stand. I thought about the SB, the 4.9 and the 3.8. The 3.8 Has a better rep for durability , better MPG, lighter. the SBC heavier, Much more costly (when you ad Everything up), it will, out of the 3 "Sound best". The 4.9 I ruled out because The idea of (if you need to work on it, "pulling the heads", the threads in the block tend to give way. So, in the end, I chose the 3800SC.
A Stroker in a Fiero is very impressive "Looking" and "sounding", But in Reality, YOU have to DRIVE the car. (Unless all you want is a "drive it now and then" "Hot Rod".)
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gtoformula
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Report this Post07-08-2013 04:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gtoformulaSend a Private Message to gtoformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

I know this have been covered ad nauseum, but here we go again.

As I get closer to chosing my engine for the swap, I can't help but wonder which is the best swap for me. I'm not an expert mechanic. I don't have unlimited fund. I want something reliable, and relatively fuel efficient. But I also want power! And that sounds good, not like a rice burner.

I was originally leaning towards the 3800 sc. It seems the easiest and least costly to swap and delivers decent power. Plus it has good fuel mileage. The problem I'm having is finding one in my area that doesn't have a billion miles and costs less than $1500. The high miles scares me because I don't want to spend $1000 for a motor only to have to rebuild it before I can even install it. I'm not real keen on the whine from the supercharger either.

3800sc?
Pro's:
Good power
Easy swap
Good fuel economy
Reliability
Cons:
Hard to come by with low mileage without breaking the bank
supercharger whine

V8?
Pro's:
V8 power
V8 rumble
Easy maintenance
Cons:Poor fuel economy
More costly swap

So forum friends...What are your thought? What are your favorites? What are your opinions on cost, reliability, fuel mileage, swap difficulty, etc???

Help!


Supercharger whine is a con?
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RadRuss
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Report this Post07-08-2013 04:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RadRussSend a Private Message to RadRussEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
first i would like to say im no mechanic, as a drivers point of view i love my sbc v8. but it was a hefty cost about 10k for the kit and another 2500++ for the motor summit z4 create engine, plus the hooker aluminum headers and holly carb. it was pricey but the sound of the engine is amazing, turns heads, also no mufflers just cats so when i step on it she's loud i have the Isuzu (sp) 5 speed tranny too. also when she was a 4banger i drove her every day then i did the swap and she became a garage only car with limited road time, down in Florida we have a lot of old peeps that dont know how to drive and was too afraid to take her out and get hit. which ever way you go tho hope you have fun.

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Report this Post07-08-2013 04:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:
As I get closer to chosing my engine for the swap, I can't help but wonder which is the best swap for me. I'm not an expert mechanic. I don't have unlimited fund. I want something reliable, and relatively fuel efficient. But I also want power! And that sounds good, not like a rice burner.


What do you mean by "power" exactly? And what is something that "sounds good" to you?

And how much total funds do you have to complete the swap? No swap is cheap, especially if you're not able to do more complex aspects of a swap, yourself.
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Report this Post07-08-2013 05:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FFIEROFREDSend a Private Message to FFIEROFREDEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For a cheaper car, call the towing companys. They get stuck with wrecked cars some times. I drove a wrecker for 5 years. I bought a lot of cars from the company. You only hear the SC wine when you are "ON" it.
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Report this Post07-08-2013 06:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:
The problem I'm having is finding one in my area that doesn't have a billion miles and costs less than $1500. The high miles scares me because I don't want to spend $1000 for a motor only to have to rebuild it before I can even install it. I'm not real keen on the whine from the supercharger either.


www.car-parts.com

I did a quick search for 2001 Grand Prix engine in Indiana. The most expensive 3800SC was $850... although they all had higher mileage.
Don't worry about rebuilding the engine. The lubrication systems and fuel metering are so good on reasonably modern engines that the bearings, bores and rings basically never wear out.
Mileage is basically irrelevant. Buy one that has a good combination of price and location. I would just clean it up. If it looks like it was leaking, replace all the gaskets. If it doesn't, don't. I wouldn't even touch the head gaskets... just oil pan gasket, main seals, front cover gasket, valve cover gaskets, intake manifold gasket, supercharger gasket and whatever else it has. Does this engine have a rear cover gasket?

OBTW... 3800SC is NOT a lightweight engine.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-08-2013).]

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Report this Post07-08-2013 07:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sco77Send a Private Message to sco77Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Your cons are pros to me.... I love the sound of supercharger whine with a small pulley and open intake, and becoming harder to find means 3800sc fieros collector/enthusiast value will go up.

------------------
86 Fiero GT 4spd - (pending L67 swap: VS cam, GenV) Build Progress eta: 8/13
98 GTP - Some mods

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Report this Post07-08-2013 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
whenever you are "LOOKING FOR" something, there are none. As soon as you Pay a "Premium Price", they are "falling out of the trees" for next to nothing !
I couldn't find one, so I bought a whole car. A week later there are 4 -3800SC's in the boneyard for $250 complete ( with a warrantee).
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Report this Post07-08-2013 08:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I do not own a V8 so it would not be fair if I tried to give you info on one. However I am impressed by the new generation of light powerful and efficient LS engines that are available. I am also impressed by the ease and low cost of the 4.9L swap.
As for the 3800SC, I have one and like it. It is smooth, powerful, reliable, looks good and gets good gas mileage. I keep adding improvements and now have about $5000 invested in my DIY swap. The supercharger runs quiet except when you go WOT and run the revs up. The exhaust is somewhat raspy sounding and doesn't have the deep roar of a V8 but IMO the plusses outnumber the minuses.
The 3800SC vs V8 argument has been going on forever and no one is ever going to agree anytime soon on the best engine swap. List everything important to you in a swap and then figure your budget. That should point you in the right direction. .

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-08-2013).]

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Corpsmen Ed
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Report this Post07-09-2013 08:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Corpsmen EdClick Here to visit Corpsmen Ed's HomePageSend a Private Message to Corpsmen EdEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
These are all great responses!!! Thanks a ton!

I didn't mean to offend anyone with my dislike of the supercharger whine. I'm sure it is not as bad as it sounds on the Youtube videos. That was just a personal preference of mine. They sounded a little rice burner-y compared to the deep rumble of the V8's.

I had not previously considered the 4.9 due to my assuming it would cost too much, so it was nice to get some correct info on that swap.

As for my budget, I would really like to keep the entire swap as close to around $1500 as possible, which means spending between $600-$1200 for the engine. I can do most of the install and fab work myself. And I have friends willing to help with the welding. When I said I wasn't an "expert mechanic", I mainly was talking about tearing down the engine to rebuild it prior to install.

I really appreciate all the feedback you guys have given on the thread though. Keep it coming, please!

What was the most challenging aspect of your swap? The most costly? The thing you would do different if you were to do it again?

[This message has been edited by Corpsmen Ed (edited 07-09-2013).]

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Report this Post07-09-2013 10:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IROCTAFIEROSend a Private Message to IROCTAFIEROEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I vote 3800 for a laundry list of reasons.
That being said, I like all swapped Fieros.
With my 3800SC, I cheaped out when I didn't pay someone else to do my harness. Wish I had not.
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Report this Post07-09-2013 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The nice thing about the 4.9 and the 3800 is that rebuilds are very seldom neccesary prior to the swap. They are both long lived, sturdy and proven powertrains.

The 4.9 is an aluminum block with lightweight cast iron heads, the balance of the car is not noticeably affected. Every 3800 car I have driven seems tail-heavy to me.

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 07-09-2013).]

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Report this Post07-09-2013 06:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MadMarkSend a Private Message to MadMarkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I will start out with a disclaimer, I have a 3800 SC III with a 4T65E-HD tranny. The engine is basically stock with 1.8 rockers and a Northstar TB. It runs pretty good, but my friend Olejoedad can just about keep up with me out of the hole. He changed his overall gear ratio and the 4.9 that he has really pulls great.

If I was to do another engine I might go with the 4.9 for a couple of reasons. First it is a V-8 which for all the people that look at the car and hear it go Oh MY a V-8, so you have the V-8 wow factor. Secondly I believe it would be cheaper to install that the 3800 SC.

Either one of these is great for a drivers car, but for raw horsepower you just cannot beat a small block Chevy especially something like the LS-3. But these are pretty expensive swaps with either spending a lot of money for someone else to do it, or for buying all the parts necessary to do it and doing it yourself.

Anyway it all boils down to what you want and what you can afford.

I do have one rule of thumb though: What ever you figure it will cost, double that and you might come close to the actual cost.
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Report this Post07-09-2013 10:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
"Almost keep up with me out of the hole"?

You've got that backwards, don't you?
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Report this Post07-10-2013 05:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OneSlowFieroSend a Private Message to OneSlowFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I thought I had decided to go with the L67 but this thread, along with others, is making me seriously consider the 4.9. Originally I just wanted to spank Corvettes in the 1/4 mile and dismissed the 4.9 due to its lack of aftermarket. Now my plans for my car have changed from strip to autox.

If the 4.9 makes most of it's power in low RPMs and is lighter than the 3800SC, wouldn't that give it an edge against a stock L67 Fiero in autocross? Less weight and a more accessible power band seem like they would cut track time. Also, if the 4.9 is truly the king of the "stoplight to stoplight" racing, then it makes sense to me that it would carry over this ability to the short sprints on courses.

The other factor are cost and ease. From what I'm reading, the 4.9 swaps are coming in at a much cheaper price tag than the L67 swaps and it would appear that it is almost unanimous that they are easier. That said, I acknowledge that no swap is truly easy or cheap.

Lastly, with people outfitting the 4.9 with turbos and superchargers, I am left to believe that its potential isn't as limited to the official aftermarket as one may think.

I would greatly appreciate if someone could weigh in on my thoughts. I'm not trying to decide which setup is best overall, but for a budget autocross setup the 4.9 seems like it may better fill the roll.

On a side note, I truly miss the V8 rumble of my 95 LT1 Caprice. The spintech on my mostly stock 2.8 sounds good but it's nothing like that monster. It would be nice to have that rumble back again.

Thanks in advance!
-Josh

[This message has been edited by OneSlowFiero (edited 07-10-2013).]

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olejoedad
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Report this Post07-10-2013 08:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have another 4.9 sitting in the shop that is for my 86 SE autocrosser. I figure the torque curve mated with a 4 speed will work very well.
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Report this Post07-10-2013 10:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wish the OP would answer my original question "What do you mean by power exactly?"

Because if by power you just want a certain HP number to show up at the wheels, it's probably easy enough to do. If you're thinking 3800 or SBC (gen 1), I'd expect that HP number you want to be somewhere in the low 200s. 3800 N/A, 4.9, or even a 3.4 DOHC, will get you that easily enough.

If you want to "feel" the power in the seat, then you need to stop concerning yourself with the peak HP number. It's basically a waste of time to think about it. You need to look at the torque curve and the RPM range it lasts throughout. The stock 2.8 makes 173 lb-ft of torque at peak, and it's pretty broad and flat from idle until about 4300 RPM when it starts falling off drastically. The 4.9 torque curve is very similar to the 2.8's, but at almost 100 lb-ft greater. It makes more torque than HP, too. It will pull hard off the line, but you'll still find the gears run out quickly as you've not got a lot of usable RPM range to work with. The 3800 will give you a broader range to work with, so you can still pull from 50 MPH without dropping a couple of gears, and not have to shift so soon. The 3.4 DOHC has some breathing problems stock as well, so it starts to fall off a bit earlier than it should.

So the 3800 is probably the best option out of all those, whether you go with the NA or SC version. I don't think you're going to get a complete running swap without any issues for $1500 or less though.
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Report this Post07-10-2013 11:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MadMarkSend a Private Message to MadMarkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

"Almost keep up with me out of the hole"?

You've got that backwards, don't you?


I believe I do have it right. Maybe sometime we should actually try it out.

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Report this Post07-10-2013 11:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The jury is still out for me a bit.

I did a carb on my 4.9 and it definitely has lots of power. The difficulty is that it is pulling strong right through red line.

I don't want to run it to 6000 because of the valve keeper being aluminum and I am told it will give out at 6000 rpm.

But, the engine appears to want to go there with the carb.

The big difference is the mechanical advance. I have 30 degrees in the dizzy at 4000 rpm and the engine is tuned with maybe 12 degrees at idle. This is pretty far off the factory ECM setting, but it runs really strong with this.

Doing a dyno run will be a little complicated because my O2 sensor is pretty solidly corroded in.

But, I am putting a 417 fl/lb clutch in it and I am sure it won't go over that.

Arn
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Report this Post07-10-2013 08:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PerKrClick Here to visit PerKr's HomePageSend a Private Message to PerKrEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
"V8" is a bit of a generic term, isn't it? You're being pretty specific about the 3800SC, so why lump all the different V8 engines together?

Simple swaps. Don't really exist, do they? Not even an I4 to V6 is "simple" when you start thinking about it. But I guess a 4.9, northstar or LS4 could be considered relatively simple as long as you use the donor transmission and electronics. Using the donor transmission makes even more sense if your car is already sporting an automatic transmission. The LS4 is also new enough that I'd expect decent fuel consumption (especially with DOD activated) while the 4.9 I'm not so sure about (I think I've seen 25mpg highway quoted here?). The northstar with the donor transmission I'm not sure about but guessing it falls inbetween the two. The 3800 on the other hand gets pretty good mileage, doesn't it?

Why not decide what you can't live with (and also what you can't live without) and try and dig for more information? Like in my case, a fuel consumption of 25mpg highway would be untolerable for a car used almost daily when the weather allows which rules out a few engines. Also, engine availability and prices around here will rule out a lot of engines.

I'd consider a rebuild regardless of which engine you decide on. Not necessarily a major rebuild but at least a cleanup (external and internal), checking that everything looks alright and so on. Do it while you have lots of time to get it done and lot's of space to work on it.
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Report this Post07-10-2013 11:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Corpsmen EdClick Here to visit Corpsmen Ed's HomePageSend a Private Message to Corpsmen EdEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When I said power, I wasn't meaning a specific HP number. I meant more of the kind that grabs you by the seat of the pants and pulls you back in the seat kind. I would like it to be fast between the stop lights, if the need arises, but also have a broad range of power through the gears.

As for mpg, fuel economy is important, but not the be all end all.

The engine cost and swap cost isn't set in stone, but I can't afford a crate motor either.
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Report this Post07-11-2013 10:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:
When I said power, I wasn't meaning a specific HP number. I meant more of the kind that grabs you by the seat of the pants and pulls you back in the seat kind. I would like it to be fast between the stop lights, if the need arises, but also have a broad range of power through the gears.

As for mpg, fuel economy is important, but not the be all end all.

The engine cost and swap cost isn't set in stone, but I can't afford a crate motor either.


Go with a 3800 N/A then. No whine from the supercharger, and a nice broad torque curve. Plus it has reasonably good MPG. It also has plenty of displacement to get you a nice "rumble" sound if you prefer that.
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Report this Post07-11-2013 10:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't disagree that the 3800 will give better gas mileage, but, the NA version will disappoint you in the power department, Definitely no spanky the Corvette.

What I am finding with the carb'd 4.9 is that the much talked about low end response is there alright, but, it does not fall flat on its face at 4000 rpm. This thing is pulling hard to 6000. I haven't dyno'd it, but I am telling you the mechanical advance and 500 cfm carb make this thing a different animal entirely.

To give you an idea, the clutch I have is a 290 ft/lb clutch. The original torque rating was 275 @ 1700. When I floor the car in 4th gear at 3000 rpm. the clutch just lets loose. This thing is making well over 300 ft/lbs. Again, I don't know for certain, but I've ordered a 417 ft/lb clutch that I hope does the job. The motor is stripped of all the stuff that normally goes wrong with an older v8. The only sensor is the O2 on the exhaust. The motor is lighter for the effort. The exhaust is light. Now if I could just stay off the throttle even a little bit, my mileage would improve, but...... I.....just..... can't.

The cost will still be below $1500. Figure on the engine at about $400-$500, a re-manned carb for $250, a 4.5 dizzy for likely $75-150, a new Olds dizzy for $150. You can fab the engine mounts out of steel, because it is smooth enough you don't need rubber. You can make up a bracket and mount your Fiero alternator low. In short, this is likely your biggest bang for the buck. Not as powerfull as the SBC conversion, but pretty comparable to the 3800sc which is also a good swap.

The advantage for a 3800sc is that you can get a donor and transfer all the electronics. But for me, I don't like playing with the electronics. And I don't like the reliability factor for those sensors.

I hope this makes sense.

Arn

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dobey
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Report this Post07-11-2013 12:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Arns85GT:
I don't disagree that the 3800 will give better gas mileage, but, the NA version will disappoint you in the power department, Definitely no spanky the Corvette.


You're not going to "spank" a C6 Vette, and probably not a C5, if you stick to a totally stock build of a 3800 whether it's N/A or SC. Same goes for a 4.9. Even throwing a carb on it and stripping the EFI isn't going to give you that much power. The 4.9 valvetrain can't make the power, and starts falling short in the 4000-5000 range. The Series II/III 3800 valvetrain is good to 7000 RPM.

Your 4.9 might seem fast, and have plenty of torque at 3000 RPM, but you are not going to spank any real Vettes with it.
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Report this Post07-12-2013 11:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Unlike C4 'Vettes, 4th Gen Camaros and many of participants in the stoplight grand prix, the C5 and C6 Vettes are barely any heavier than a Fiero. My Northstar car weighs ~2900 while standard C5's and C6's are about 3200, and the ZO6 models are about 3100.

So you'll need 350-430 HP, depending on what you're racing against, to be able to pull on one of those cars.
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Report this Post07-12-2013 01:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree you need 350+ hp to take on a vette, but I should say that I am not putting up my 4.9 for that purpose.

It will go good, and if I wanted it to go better, it would take an sc or NO2.

Let me clear up a little on the valve issue. I have discussed this with somebody who knows turbo'd 4.9's better than anybody and has run them up to over 350 hp. When naturally aspirated, the more free flowing carb'd 4.9 pulls strong to 6,000 rpm. It does not fall down even at 5,000. The valves with the standard lift are not a great problem, but if you raise the lift you get the potential problems. I am thinking the hp on my carb'd 4.9 likely won't go over 220 hp. but the torque will be over 300 ft/lbs.

If you want to go chasing 'vettes, you need something more potent IMHO.

The 3800 can be built up to 350 hp but I think you'd need to turbo it.

Arn
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Report this Post07-12-2013 01:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Arns85GT:
When naturally aspirated, the more free flowing carb'd 4.9 pulls strong to 6,000 rpm. It does not fall down even at 5,000.


You have a dyno chart of a 4.9 with only change from stock being the conversion to a carb from the standard TBI setup? I'd love to see those dyno runs.
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Report this Post07-12-2013 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not sure if I am going dyno or not. Money is a little tight for pensioners.

The reason I am saying it will produce more I think I've stated, but at the risk of repeating myself.

1. The Caddy ECM is set up for emissions. This means it cannot allow full hp.
2. The 4.9 with the OE fuel and ignition chokes at 4000 rpm and drops power hitting the wall at 5,000?
3. My 4.9 revs strong to 6000. The ignition is mechanical. It doesn't allow for emissions. It gives full advance and as much as you want.
4. My 290 fl/lbs clutch can't hold WOT at 3000 rpm in 4th gear. It has to be making more than the 275 stock ft/lbs.

Now I just have to figure out if I can swing a dyno run
Arn
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Report this Post07-12-2013 08:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Arns85GT:
1. The Caddy ECM is set up for emissions. This means it cannot allow full hp.
2. The 4.9 with the OE fuel and ignition chokes at 4000 rpm and drops power hitting the wall at 5,000?
3. My 4.9 revs strong to 6000. The ignition is mechanical. It doesn't allow for emissions. It gives full advance and as much as you want.
4. My 290 fl/lbs clutch can't hold WOT at 3000 rpm in 4th gear. It has to be making more than the 275 stock ft/lbs.


1) The engine is designed around emissions, and being in a big heavy Cadillac. And nobody cares about the HP. Torque curve is what matters here.
2) The stock setup hits the wall around 3500-4000 RPM, just like the 2.8 does. I think the 2.8 might even do a bit better here, but at 100 ft-lb less peak torque.
3) What you think is "revs strong" and what the dyno says is strong may not necessarily agree. Just because the engine can spin to 6000 doesn't mean it's making any power up there. It's an engine designed to make low end torque to move a big heavy block of steel around town.
4. 3000 RPM isn't very high. Stock 4.9 makes around 264 ft-lb right around 3000 RPM, so it's not surprising that you might have picked up around 10 lb-ft at the same RPM, going to the carb.

Here's a 4.9 dyno chart I found:


I doubt you're making a drastically different graph from that, just by swapping to a carb and running some advance on t he ignition.

This is a dyno chart I found for the 3800. It might be for the SC instead of N/A. I think the N/A is similar in terms of curves, but with lower numbers. If there's a better chart available for a stock Series II or III N/A 3800, I'd love to see it, especially if it's taken in a Fiero.


You can see how much broader/flatter the torque curve is on the 3800. If you take your 4.9 car, and a stock L67 Fiero, and raced them from a roll at 3000 RPM, the L67 car would leave you behind. You might get a quick jump forward from the higher torque output at that RPM with the 4.9, but the L67 would quickly pass and leave you.
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Report this Post07-12-2013 08:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Zac88GTClick Here to visit Zac88GT's HomePageSend a Private Message to Zac88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Arns85GT:

3. My 4.9 revs strong to 6000. The ignition is mechanical. It doesn't allow for emissions. It gives full advance and as much as you want.
4. My 290 fl/lbs clutch can't hold WOT at 3000 rpm in 4th gear. It has to be making more than the 275 stock ft/lbs.

Arn


My carbed 4.9 pulled strong but certainly not to 6k, 4.5-5k maybe, but after that it was pretty pathetic. There must be something wrong with your centerforce clutch, mine held just fine with the carbed 4.9 and 100hp shot of nitrous.
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Report this Post07-12-2013 08:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Original post:

This is a dyno chart I found for the 3800. It might be for the SC instead of N/A. I think the N/A is similar in terms of curves, but with lower numbers. If there's a better chart available for a stock Series II or III N/A 3800, I'd love to see it, especially if it's taken in a Fiero.




This dyno chart is BS. HP and torque intersect at 5252rpm when on the same scale (as these are).

Remember, HP = tq (ft-lbs) * rpm / 5252

[This message has been edited by Xyster (edited 07-12-2013).]

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Report this Post07-12-2013 09:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a 350 Bored over .060, lumpy cam, short and for all intent open exhaust with a 4 barrel carburetor.
I love the car and its a lot of fun to drive.

But there are times I would love to jump into an automatic 3800 and just drive.

I drive my V8 all the time, I don't believe in leaving a car sit. Guess thats why they don't take a high priority when it comes to paint. I just want to make them go.
Its all about what you want to do with it. If I had a longer drive to work I would have traded in the V8 a long time ago. But the 10 minute drive to work is a lot of fun when you are faster than 90% of the cars on the road.

Just pick one and have fun and enjoy the car.
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Report this Post07-12-2013 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Xyster:
This dyno chart is BS. HP and torque intersect at 5252rpm when on the same scale (as these are).

Remember, HP = tq (ft-lbs) * rpm / 5252


Yeah, I don't know why they aren't intersecting at all there. The site I found it from stated it was pulled from GMPP's crate engines site, but there don't seem to be any 3800 crate motors listed for sale there. Though, I think it's the HP curve on that chart that's busted, not the TQ curve. And the HP numbers are irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion (or any discussion of power really). I would be happy to see an actual dyno run chart, as I said. Can you find a better dyno chart?
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Report this Post07-12-2013 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by dobey:


Yeah, I don't know why they aren't intersecting at all there. The site I found it from stated it was pulled from GMPP's crate engines site, but there don't seem to be any 3800 crate motors listed for sale there. Though, I think it's the HP curve on that chart that's busted, not the TQ curve. And the HP numbers are irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion (or any discussion of power really). I would be happy to see an actual dyno run chart, as I said. Can you find a better dyno chart?


I have the actual chart on my home computer. Unfortunately I do not have and will not install the picture uploader.

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Report this Post07-13-2013 02:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is my take. Its my opinion. I do not mean to offend anyone. Ok, now that's out of the way. IMO, the 4.9 is fine if you just want to install it and call it a day. Yes, its fun around town but that is about it. Oh, and on the HWY it gets pretty good MPG. Other than your typical exhaust, intake and "chip" (BPU), leave it alone. Its fun if you go no further. You will be lucky to crack 13's with it but stop light to stop light, its a blast. Otherwise, its cost prohibitive to get serious with it.

L67, hands down a insanely fun engine in a Fiero. Sky is the limit with these. Do what you want, stock, BPU, or go all out. You have tons of options. One ride, and you'll wonder why you ever considered the boat anchor that is the 4.9PFI.

I have built 3 4.9 cars, 3 L67, 2 3.4 TDC (if you are gonna road race, this one is hard to beat right up to BPU mods). I built a boosted duke, boosted 2.8, several SBC's (gen1) and the L67 is the one to go with IMO.
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