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Gathering Parts for Turbo 3800 Build by NoMoreRicers
Started on: 05-09-2013 04:25 PM
Replies: 50 (1202 views)
Last post by: NoMoreRicers on 08-04-2013 04:26 PM
NoMoreRicers
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Report this Post05-09-2013 04:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm going to start gathering parts to build a Turbo L36 to put on my 88 cradle. Before I start, I want to say that I really don't want to hear people telling me I should start with an L67. I'm fully aware of the differences in the bottom end between the two and don't need the rhetoric. Anyways, I should state what my goals are. I will be using the F23 instead of the 4t65HD and I would like to run high 11's. I'm thinking 375-400whp. I wanted to basically go to the limits of the stock cam but Zoomer at ZZP doesn't think the stock cam is capable of my goals so I'm considering going with the ST1 or ST2 and using the 1.6 rockers instead of the 1.9's. Here is my parts list as of about an hour ago:

Deka 60# Injectors
130# PAC Valve Springs
Rollmaster Double Timing Chain
ST1 Cam (or ST2?)
Modified Titanium Retainers
Viton Valve Stem Seals
Comp Cams Valve Locks
Precision 5858 T3 0.63
BOV - To Be Determined Later
Wastegate - To Be Determined Later
Intercooler Setup - To Be Determined Later

Just curious what everybody thought. Feel free to criticize, educate, make recommendations etc.

[This message has been edited by NoMoreRicers (edited 05-09-2013).]

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Report this Post05-09-2013 08:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I say get the cam and keep stock rockers.
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Report this Post05-09-2013 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cam frees up tons of power.

stock rockers are best.

Rest looks fine, should work well. Dont over complicate things!
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Report this Post05-10-2013 08:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Does Stattama not make the ST2 anymore? I can't find it anywhere.
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Report this Post05-10-2013 10:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ST2 and 3 have been discontinued for a few years. Can find them used, or have ZZP do a custom grind to those specs. I don't think you'd need more than a ST1 anyway. Bigger cams make it harder to spool on the foot brake and push the powerband higher.

------------------
10.263 @ 134.44MPH - 1.49 60'
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 130lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, ARP Rod bolts, otherwise stock L36.


Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

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Report this Post05-10-2013 11:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by LFiero67:

ST2 and 3 have been discontinued for a few years. Can find them used, or have ZZP do a custom grind to those specs. I don't think you'd need more than a ST1 anyway. Bigger cams make it harder to spool on the foot brake and push the powerband higher.



I think I'll go with the ST1. I'm not too worried about spooling on the foot brake as I'm going to mainly use it as a weekend driver and I'm using the F23 . Thanks for answering my questions via PM too!
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Report this Post05-10-2013 11:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well I went 11.1 on a stock cam + e85 on a larger turbo than you are looking at, so high 11's shouldn't be too hard.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 05-10-2013).]

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Report this Post05-10-2013 11:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Forgot about the manual thing

I'd consider the 6262, it's the same price, spools incredibly fast, and will allow you to make your goal at a lower boost.
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Report this Post05-10-2013 11:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

Well I went 11.1 on a stock cam + e85 on a larger turbo than you are looking at, so high 11's shouldn't be too hard.


Interesting. I thought you were using the ST5 the whole time.
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Report this Post05-10-2013 11:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

NoMoreRicers

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quote
Originally posted by LFiero67:

Forgot about the manual thing

I'd consider the 6262, it's the same price, spools incredibly fast, and will allow you to make your goal at a lower boost.


It's tempting. If I only I knew I could fight the urge to crank up the boost.
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Report this Post05-10-2013 11:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Better fighting the urge to turn it up vs having to to turn it up to reach your goal.

------------------
10.263 @ 134.44MPH - 1.49 60'
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 130lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, ARP Rod bolts, otherwise stock L36.


Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

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Report this Post05-10-2013 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You guys think the stock pushrods and lifters are fine with the 130# springs? They've only got 70k on them if that matters.

[This message has been edited by NoMoreRicers (edited 05-10-2013).]

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Report this Post05-10-2013 12:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm running stock pushrods with 130s
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Report this Post05-10-2013 12:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Stock lifters, pushrods and rockers on a 100k+ mile engine here. If I ever take the heads back off to install my mls gaskets I will probably put ls7 lifters in for s&g's.

I have not been back to the track since the cam install.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 05-10-2013).]

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Report this Post05-10-2013 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks guys. If anybody has any of these parts for sale that are new or low miles let me know. I keep seeing good buys on ClubGP but I haven't got any kind of email from them for my account registration. I even sent them an email 3 or 4 days later and they didn't respond to that either.
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Report this Post05-10-2013 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I doubt you ever will. The administration is MIA.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

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Report this Post05-10-2013 02:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Justinbart

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Intense has the best price for the rollmaster double chain I've seen. I have a new set of PAC 130 springs for $120 shipped if I don't sell them tomorrow at the 3800 meet.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

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Report this Post05-10-2013 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

Intense has the best price for the rollmaster double chain I've seen. I have a new set of PAC 130 springs for $120 shipped if I don't sell them tomorrow at the 3800 meet.



For some reason I was only looking on ZZP. The Rollmaster Double chain is 55 bucks cheaper! Thanks man. There retainers are 55 bucks more expensive though! Looks like I will get the chain from them but everything else from people here or ZZP.

I'm definitely interested in the 130 springs. I'll paypal you the money NOW if you sell them to me.
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Report this Post05-10-2013 03:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are you rear mounting the turbo?
//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/121319.html

I also have a Big AZZ new W/A IC from frozenboost that i'd sell ya.

[This message has been edited by nosrac (edited 05-10-2013).]

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Report this Post05-10-2013 04:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by nosrac:

Are you rear mounting the turbo?
//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/121319.html

I also have a Big AZZ new W/A IC from frozenboost that i'd sell ya.



Yessir. I'm actually going to try to copy your setup with the half trunk.

Which model of intercooler is it and how much do you want?
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Report this Post05-10-2013 05:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NoMoreRicers:

Does Stattama not make the ST2 anymore? I can't find it anywhere.


an xp or S1X cam would do the same thing.

I would just get a ST5 or leave it stock. The manual is going to really use the RPM band a cam gives more than an auto... so I would probably suggest it if the money allows for it.. it has no downfalls over stock other than cost, and its not any less streetable.
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Report this Post05-10-2013 05:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
St5 is not a good match for a small turbo.
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Report this Post05-10-2013 05:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
.544”/.536” seems like a lot of lift. I don't have any intentions of running 10's or even low 11's with this car. Maybe later though
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Report this Post05-10-2013 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Mine suges anytime I'm below 2krpm. It defiantly a less street able than stock cam but I'm not sure how it compares to any other cam. It pulls like crazy up top. x2 on needing Rpm with the manual.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

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Report this Post05-11-2013 02:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FormulaSend a Private Message to FormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by LFiero67:


I'd consider the 6262, it's the same price, spools incredibly fast, and will allow you to make your goal at a lower boost.


I really like the 6262 on my car. It seems to be a good match for the 3800.
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Report this Post05-11-2013 03:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula:


I really like the 6262 6266 on my car. It seems to be a good match for the 3800.




I vote ST1 cam.
Are you doing the work?

BTW, I have some almost brand new 130# springs, retainers, etc, push rods, ZZP SS valves + rocker shim, and MLS gaskets. All 4 sale @ krazy cheap prices.

[This message has been edited by nosrac (edited 05-11-2013).]

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Report this Post05-11-2013 10:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by nosrac:




I vote ST1 cam.
Are you doing the work?

BTW, I have some almost brand new 130# springs, retainers, etc, push rods, ZZP SS valves + rocker shim, and MLS gaskets. All 4 sale @ krazy cheap prices.



I got your PM about the intercooler and I'm not sure that I'm interested because I was hoping for one that I could fit under the trunk like your setup. I am interested in your springs and retainers and whatever else you have from my list on the first post. I don't plan on getting new push rods or valves but PM me everything you have from my list up above and I will surely buy from you!

Yeah I'm going to do most of the work myself. With all the resources here I feel confident that I can do just about all of it myself with a couple exceptions like the tuning etc.
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Report this Post05-11-2013 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
JB1 told me he has an ST3 cam for sale. What do you guys think?
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Report this Post05-11-2013 03:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nosrac, I just bought the PAC springs from Justin but I'm interested in your titanium retainers. Do you have the viton valve seals or comp valve locks as well?
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Report this Post05-11-2013 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NoMoreRicers:

JB1 told me he has an ST3 cam for sale. What do you guys think?


I just wanted to bump this before I go to work. I have an option to buy an ST3 cam and wondered how you guys thought it would compare to an ST1.
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Report this Post05-11-2013 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Honestly unless your going to run a bigger turbo, and or look for 10 second 1/4mile times, a ST1 is lots. A ST3 would be considered a 9 second cam in Turbo Buick world, and that's at 3500+ lbs.

------------------
10.263 @ 134.44MPH - 1.49 60'
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 130lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, ARP Rod bolts, otherwise stock L36.


Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

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Report this Post05-12-2013 12:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NoMoreRicers:

Do you have the viton valve seals or comp valve locks as well?



Lemme check.
BTW, I have the ST3 cam and I haven't had a chance to open it up yet but the jury is currently out on if I like it or not.

The lope is good on the bigger cams but you have to spend much more time tuning them to eliminate surging and a rough idle.

Unless it is a hella deal I would go with the ST1 as the smaller cams play nice with things like idle, AC, deceleration, etc...
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Report this Post05-12-2013 02:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would rock the ST3. I enjoy the lumpy idle though. 80% of the reason why I put the ST5 in my car was just for the sound.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

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Report this Post05-12-2013 07:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oh man I wish there was some kind of consensus here. Lfiero67 and Nosrac say ST1, Zoomer says ST2, Justin says ST3, and Dark says ST5.

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Report this Post05-12-2013 11:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
And I have an XP
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Report this Post05-12-2013 12:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NoMoreRicers:

Oh man I wish there was some kind of consensus here. Lfiero67 and Nosrac say ST1, Zoomer says ST2, Justin says ST3, and Dark says ST5.



The manual trans aspect is probably throws off the auto guys... Justins st5 does surge a bit, and I believe the ST3 would surge the same in some of the m/t applications over a stock/st1 cam.
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Report this Post05-12-2013 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you're buying new I would get the ST5. If you find a really good deal on the ST3 then you could get that.

Mine does surge in gear at low RPM. I just had to adjust how I drive. I used to always put it in 5th anytime I was cruising above 35mph. Now I just leave it in 4th then shift into 5th anywhere above 60.
------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 05-12-2013).]

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Report this Post05-12-2013 05:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I can't believe you guys would recommend a ST5 cam for a 400whp build, especially when he has said he is looking at a 58mm turbo, it's too big for a 62 even. Justin had admitted the turbo takes longer to spool with the new cam, and that it surges at low rpm. Both are because the cam has shifted the powerband higher. He is running an L36, it isn't going to like having to be spun to 7000 rpm in every gear and will shorten its life. The manual trans thing makes the big cam worse, it will drive easier with a smaller cam, and the turbo will come in at a lower rpm, giving a wider powerband. If the powerband is shifted too high, a smaller turbo will be pushed harder to keep up, and may run out of steam too soon, further narrowing the usable rpm range. Your also pushing all this through stock heads, which will limit the usable rpm range. You have both run into the 130 mph range on small cams, Justin on stock plus 1.9s and Scott on a ST2, then that ST2 went in Formulas car, which is working well also. There is no way this car needs more than a ST1 or even a ST2, which zzp could still make under their custom cam order, to reach his goals.

Everywhere else I've read, they say the worst thing you can do to a turbo car is over cam it, except the 3800 guys, they say run the biggest. The St5 has more duration than my friends custom speced cam for a turbo 6.0L with heads that flow nearly twice what stock 3800 heads do. And I believe more duration than my friends 8 second turbo S10 that's making 1000+ WHP on a 6.7L engine.

------------------
10.263 @ 134.44MPH - 1.49 60'
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 130lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, ARP Rod bolts, otherwise stock L36.


Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

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Report this Post05-12-2013 06:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I thought we decided that the 58mm was dumb already. Get a 62-67. We need the rpm's with the manual trans. Go big or go home.

------------------
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Report this Post05-12-2013 06:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think I will get the 6262 but I'm not confident in picking a cam yet after all of these responses.

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