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Max rpm for 2.8? by AL87
Started on: 11-15-2012 04:07 PM
Replies: 42 (2064 views)
Last post by: AL87 on 07-29-2013 11:38 AM
AL87
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Report this Post11-15-2012 04:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
okay, just wondering what rpms things start failing at.
what is the max effective rpm on all stock components?

I'd like to know the 1st thing that would fail at a given rpm.
assuming I re-enforced the first thing, whats the second?
and if I re-enforced the second, whats the third? (So on and so fourth...)

Im pretty sure the crank is in there, as well as the valvetrain (because of valve float) and fasteners (bolts, studs, etc).
I just want to set an order on things that are expected to fail.

What if I re-enforced all of those components? what would be the max effective rpm?
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FieroWannaBe
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Report this Post11-15-2012 04:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What does it matter, since you will make no power at anything at or above the stock limit.
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Pyrthian
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Report this Post11-15-2012 04:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
the stock coil, stock ECM programming & valve float prevent the 2.8 from achieveing self destructuive RPMs


and, as mentioned - you quickly start losing power after 4500 rpm - so - little point running it out further.
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86fiero3.4
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Report this Post11-15-2012 06:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fiero3.4Click Here to Email 86fiero3.4Send a Private Message to 86fiero3.4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The rod and main bearings fail at high RPMs.
Due to the junk bearings used from factory and most cheap replacements.

On that note...
When main bearings fail - crank walks around and ruins the bearing journals. And most likely the other bearings/journals.
When rod bearings fail - rods tend to fail at the rod cap by getting stuck somewhere in the block during rotation and breaking.
When rods fail - piston cups tend to take a beating and bust apart.

Also note:
At any higher RPM the rods have enough momentum to crash through the oil pan and/or block.


You may ask how i know this.....
These are the reasons my 86 SE now has a built 3.4 in it.

------------------
Cody - 86 SE 3.4pr/4 speed

[This message has been edited by 86fiero3.4 (edited 11-15-2012).]

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BV MotorSports
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Report this Post11-15-2012 07:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:

What does it matter, since you will make no power at anything at or above the stock limit.


Exactly. While you can rev it.. there isnt any point in doing so. IIRC peak TQ is made at 3500rpm. You want your up shifts to drop the RPM as close to the peak TQ. There is no need to go past the indicated redline.
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Patrick
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Report this Post11-15-2012 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I assume then that taking my '84 duke to 8500 RPM hasn't found me any extra ponies?
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87FieroSport
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Report this Post11-15-2012 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 87FieroSportSend a Private Message to 87FieroSportEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hit 7500 doing tranny drops today.
Luckily nothing happened but we did smell something burning.

Just keep it below 5000, it's safe. And better for your engines life
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Phirewire
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Report this Post11-16-2012 12:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PhirewireClick Here to Email PhirewireSend a Private Message to PhirewireEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When playing with mine it will go 5500rpms on stock v6 auto but its not pulling anymore. Stops pulling hard 4500 or so.
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sardonyx247
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Report this Post11-16-2012 03:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The biggest thing I have found is the coil, when I swaped to DIS it pulls all the way to redline now.

FYI 85-87 RPM limit is 6012 in the ECM, 88's have no rev limit.
So everyone who says they rev it higher than that either has an 88 ECM, their ECM reprogramed, or is just flat out lying. Mostly the later.
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Report this Post11-16-2012 08:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerClick Here to Email BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

The biggest thing I have found is the coil, when I swaped to DIS it pulls all the way to redline now.

FYI 85-87 RPM limit is 6012 in the ECM, 88's have no rev limit.
So everyone who says they rev it higher than that either has an 88 ECM, their ECM reprogramed, or is just flat out lying. Mostly the later.


Is an 88 ECM considered an upgrade for 85-86 V6's? I have an Auto Formula and an Auto 86 GT. Would that be a direct swap or should I change PROM's? I don't know one auto trans from the next.

Jonathan

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Will
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Report this Post11-16-2012 10:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

You want your up shifts to drop the RPM as close to the peak TQ.


Upshifts should be made such that power before the shift and power after the shift are the same.

The stock engine makes peak power at 4500 RPM, and the neck of the upper intake manifold where it sidesteps the distributor chokes it above that. No sense in revving higher than 5500 on a stock engine, as the power/torque drop off dramatically above 4500.
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Report this Post11-16-2012 10:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86fiero3.4:
The rod and main bearings fail at high RPMs.
Due to the junk bearings used from factory and most cheap replacements.

On that note...
When main bearings fail - crank walks around and ruins the bearing journals. And most likely the other bearings/journals.
When rod bearings fail - rods tend to fail at the rod cap by getting stuck somewhere in the block during rotation and breaking.
When rods fail - piston cups tend to take a beating and bust apart.

Also note:
At any higher RPM the rods have enough momentum to crash through the oil pan and/or block.


You may ask how i know this.....
These are the reasons my 86 SE now has a built 3.4 in it.


depends on the generation crank.

O/T, but the newer gen 60dV6 (2.8/3.1/3.4)cranks are good & solid to 7000RPM. and that is GM spec, which leaves much room above.
yes, the condition of the bearings has great impact on this as well.
I do beleive the internally balanced 88 crank is of the newer generation? no sure tho.
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Will
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Report this Post11-16-2012 12:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86fiero3.4:

The rod and main bearings fail at high RPMs.
Due to the junk bearings used from factory and most cheap replacements.


Not correct.
The early 2.8's had inadequate lubrication of the bottom end bearings... that's why they fail.

 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:
depends on the generation crank.

O/T, but the newer gen 60dV6 (2.8/3.1/3.4)cranks are good & solid to 7000RPM. and that is GM spec, which leaves much room above.
yes, the condition of the bearings has great impact on this as well.
I do beleive the internally balanced 88 crank is of the newer generation? no sure tho.


Yes, the '88 (and I believe '87) cranks have the updated oil channels. Also, I think the later generation blocks have updated oil passages.

I bought my first Fiero, an '87 GT auto, with 170K on the clock. It spun a rod bearing the night I bought it as I executed a WOT freeway merge at the top of 2nd gear--IE, well within the design limits of the engine. For 6 or 7 years now I've owned a Formula. It's now pushing 160K and sees 6,000 RPM every time I drive it... no problems.
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Report this Post11-16-2012 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for stewart_1322Click Here to Email stewart_1322Send a Private Message to stewart_1322Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Maybe you should just put all your free monies into an engine upgrade worth while and stop pestering people with dumb questions, trying to brake the speed of sound with a 2.8.
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Report this Post11-16-2012 03:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerClick Here to Email BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by stewart_1322:

Maybe you should just put all your free monies into an engine upgrade worth while and stop pestering people with dumb questions, trying to brake the speed of sound with a 2.8.


Is anyone taking bets on how many posts stewart will make it to?

Jonathan

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BV MotorSports
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Report this Post11-16-2012 03:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boostdreamer:


Is anyone taking bets on how many posts stewart will make it to?

Jonathan


Probably more than I will! LOL
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Report this Post11-16-2012 05:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nitroheadz28Send a Private Message to nitroheadz28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

The biggest thing I have found is the coil, when I swaped to DIS it pulls all the way to redline now.

FYI 85-87 RPM limit is 6012 in the ECM, 88's have no rev limit.
So everyone who says they rev it higher than that either has an 88 ECM, their ECM reprogramed, or is just flat out lying. Mostly the later.


Not exactly.. There have been many discussions about this and the consensus is that not all pre 88s have no limiters.. I can tell you on my 87 GT which was bone stock at the time, I let a buddy drive it who took it to 6500 while I was screaming at him to shift. Luckily no damage from that stunt.
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Report this Post11-16-2012 05:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
FYI 85-87 RPM limit is 6012 in the ECM, 88's have no rev limit.
So everyone who says they rev it higher than that either has an 88 ECM, their ECM reprogramed, or is just flat out lying. Mostly the later.


The 4th option is their tach is going bad and reading high. They very well may see 6500 rpm on the tach, but the engine is only actually spinning 6000 rpm. This would be an honest oversight.
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Francis T
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Report this Post11-16-2012 05:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageClick Here to Email Francis TSend a Private Message to Francis TEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As stated by by others, it dont pay to rev much above 4.5k without a better intake and headers.In which case you can take it to 7K as long as you also have good bearings and the internals are balanced for such.

------------------

trueleo.com
RSpiderII@aol.com

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Report this Post11-16-2012 05:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Old LarSend a Private Message to Old LarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Isn't the rev limited to 6300 rpm in the pre 88 V6? I have hit that a few times in my 87 GT.
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Report this Post11-16-2012 06:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
With a Blazer distributor, and a carb, with ported everything and 1.6 rockers, mine pulls hard right up to 6200 rpm. It would go higher but I don't have the gonads to try it. I have an old friend who was an old time hydroplane racer (the hull still is in his yard) and he told me he used the marine version of the 2.8 racing. On a boat it will turn 8,000 rpm. A car is different so I expect 7,000 is about the limit.

Like others have said, with the stock intake and exhaust you will never get there.

Arn
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Report this Post11-16-2012 06:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierogt28Click Here to Email fierogt28Send a Private Message to fierogt28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Yes, the '88 (and I believe '87) cranks have the updated oil channels. Also, I think the later generation blocks have updated oil passages.

I bought my first Fiero, an '87 GT auto, with 170K on the clock. It spun a rod bearing the night I bought it as I executed a WOT freeway merge at the top of 2nd gear--IE, well within the design limits of the engine. For 6 or 7 years now I've owned a Formula. It's now pushing 160K and sees 6,000 RPM every time I drive it... no problems.


I heard that GM improved the oil passages on 88V6s, and the 3.4 V6 in Camaro's and Firebird's. (which many of us swap into our fieros
for a upgraded improvement. I really would love to see photos of this that could supply proof on the location and spots of the improved
oil channels. Its a good subject to shed light on. I'm very interested.

------------------
fierogt28

88 GT, Loaded, 5-speed.
88 GT, 5-speed. All original.

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AL87
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Report this Post11-17-2012 12:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

The biggest thing I have found is the coil, when I swaped to DIS it pulls all the way to redline now.

FYI 85-87 RPM limit is 6012 in the ECM, 88's have no rev limit.
So everyone who says they rev it higher than that either has an 88 ECM, their ECM reprogramed, or is just flat out lying. Mostly the later.


Yeah, I want to get mine taken off!!! and good to know the rev limiter's rpm.
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AL87
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Report this Post11-17-2012 12:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have an '85 v6 im parting out because I ported everything on it. I can say it'll pull better because of what I did, but also because I upgraded the cam. and as far as the oiling issue, I had the GM 60* V6 race engine guide (I lost it, can anyone guide me to another?) and I used it to improve the oiling ability by opening up the galleys a bit. and I have clevite 77 bearings everywhere. so I'm good... (I think)

I got a new eagle crank for the 2.8 at a steal for 30 bucks, and I'll be putting that in sometime in the next month or so.
I just wanted to build the engine for reliability (At any damn rpm I choose)

And like I said, I'm parting the 85's stuff out (intake, heads, exhaust) who said anything about me using stock components again?
the post was about the mechanical limits of the 2.8. in any aspect one could provide from thier experience.

the stupidest question is the one not asked, right?

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 11-17-2012).]

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Report this Post11-17-2012 06:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for turboguy327Click Here to Email turboguy327Send a Private Message to turboguy327Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL87:


And like I said, I'm parting the 85's stuff out (intake, heads, exhaust) who said anything about me using stock components again?



Because common sense says that if your upgrading anything at all you wont be using a 2.8 anymore.
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AL87
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Report this Post11-17-2012 11:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
you must realize im maximixing what I can afford.

if I had the money I'd be doing swaps and all that, but i dont have that kind of income, and I keep a tight budget.
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Report this Post11-17-2012 11:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Sigler85GTClick Here to Email Sigler85GTSend a Private Message to Sigler85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
But what happens when the 2.8 grenades? Enjoy what it is and swap out when you can afford it. Its not a drift car
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Report this Post11-18-2012 12:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You spent the last year worshipping the "Iron Duke" and trying to make it resemble a real engine..then gave up and sold off the parts.

Now the same thing for the 2.8

Reality Check! These are ancient cars with ancient performance stats. You can put lipstick on a pig- it is still a pig. Why rip apart, beat on it and then be disappointed? It is a cool looking economy car. That's it

A stock Fiero by today's standards is about as well performing as Grandpa's Ford Taurus. No amount of porting and polishingl, holley stickers, gasket matching, fancy scoops, performance chips and air intakes..will change that

With an engine swaps (and deep pockets or a lot of mechanical skills) you can make a Fiero into a sleeper. Otherwise, you are probably pissing in the wind and will still lose to my wife's Sienna minivan at the stoplights.

If you are going to rev a 25 year old motor to redline, it will blow up sooner or later.

Enjoy the 2.8 for what it is- a reasonably reliable cruising motor.. nothing to win races with

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Report this Post11-18-2012 12:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boostdreamer:


Is anyone taking bets on how many posts stewart will make it to?

Jonathan


I + him for that!
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Report this Post11-18-2012 12:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:

You spent the last year worshipping the "Iron Duke" and trying to make it resemble a real engine..then gave up and sold off the parts.

Now the same thing for the 2.8

Reality Check! These are ancient cars with ancient performance stats. You can put lipstick on a pig- it is still a pig. Why rip apart, beat on it and then be disappointed? It is a cool looking economy car. That's it

A stock Fiero by today's standards is about as well performing as Grandpa's Ford Taurus. No amount of porting and polishingl, holley stickers, gasket matching, fancy scoops, performance chips and air intakes..will change that

With an engine swaps (and deep pockets or a lot of mechanical skills) you can make a Fiero into a sleeper. Otherwise, you are probably pissing in the wind and will still lose to my wife's Sienna minivan at the stoplights.

If you are going to rev a 25 year old motor to redline, it will blow up sooner or later.

Enjoy the 2.8 for what it is- a reasonably reliable cruising motor.. nothing to win races with


Thank you! a 3100 and a cam might be worth something, but I wouldn't do anything less than a 3400/3500 or a 3800. it's just plain not worth it.

------------------
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Fiero Owner's group on 60degreeV6.com

I know these lines Look crooked on paper, but I swear I've got them straight in my head.

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Will
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Report this Post11-18-2012 07:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL87:

if I had the money I'd be doing swaps and all that, but i dont have that kind of income, and I keep a tight budget.


www.car-parts.com

There are 3500's in Florida as low as $300. The whole swap could be done for $1000-1500 and have 50% more power than a stock 2.8 makes.... *WAY* better bang/buck ratio.
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Report this Post11-18-2012 09:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've got what I've got, extra parts and NO cash.
I hit the rpm limiter sometimes (looks to be over 6500) on my gauge) and nothing happens.

if anything if and when I run out of 2.8's to bolt in, I'll go over to a 3.4.

then either a 3800 S/C, or a V8 WHEN I HAVE THE MONEY.

My friend and I are swapping in a worked over 3800 S/C to put in his 88 formula.
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Report this Post11-18-2012 10:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


www.car-parts.com

There are 3500's in Florida as low as $300. The whole swap could be done for $1000-1500 and have 50% more power than a stock 2.8 makes.... *WAY* better bang/buck ratio.



Will, there's no hope for this one.
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Report this Post11-19-2012 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerClick Here to Email BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

The biggest thing I have found is the coil, when I swaped to DIS it pulls all the way to redline now.

FYI 85-87 RPM limit is 6012 in the ECM, 88's have no rev limit.
So everyone who says they rev it higher than that either has an 88 ECM, their ECM reprogramed, or is just flat out lying. Mostly the later.



 
quote
Originally posted by Boostdreamer:

Is an 88 ECM considered an upgrade for 85-86 V6's? I have an Auto Formula and an Auto 86 GT. Would that be a direct swap or should I change PROM's? I don't know one auto trans from the next.

Jonathan


Anyone care to comment on this?

Jonathan

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Gall757
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Report this Post11-19-2012 05:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am wondering if the modifications to the engine had anything to do with removing the rev limiter. The 88s had better oil distribution on the mains, so maybe they decided higher RPMs were not a danger. If that is true, you would not want to remove the limit on the earlier engines. In either car, it's a waste of time to drive them over 5000 in stock form.

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 11-19-2012).]

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imabaddude
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Report this Post11-19-2012 05:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for imabaddudeSend a Private Message to imabaddudeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL87:

I've got what I've got, extra parts and NO cash.
I hit the rpm limiter sometimes (looks to be over 6500) on my gauge) and nothing happens.

if anything if and when I run out of 2.8's to bolt in, I'll go over to a 3.4.

then either a 3800 S/C, or a V8 WHEN I HAVE THE MONEY.

My friend and I are swapping in a worked over 3800 S/C to put in his 88 formula.


Sell or swap the 2.8s on Craigslist, and then just pick up a 3.4 from a junkyard and then use your ported heads, intake and everything on that. You'd have a better, stronger lower end. Spend the 600 on forged pistons (I believe the rods are already forged but usually have some flash on them, correct me if I'm wrong(probably am)), then turbo the snot out of it. It'd be less time and cheaper than spending all that time on a 2.8, and while you're saving up the funds for the turbo you can still drive it NA with the stock ECU.
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ericjon262
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Report this Post11-19-2012 05:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by imabaddude:


Sell or swap the 2.8s on Craigslist, and then just pick up a 3.4 from a junkyard and then use your ported heads, intake and everything on that. You'd have a better, stronger lower end. Spend the 600 on forged pistons (I believe the rods are already forged but usually have some flash on them, correct me if I'm wrong(probably am)), then turbo the snot out of it. It'd be less time and cheaper than spending all that time on a 2.8, and while you're saving up the funds for the turbo you can still drive it NA with the stock ECU.


do you guys realize that stock as cast 3400 heads outflow max effort portwork on the Gen 1 iron heads? do you also realize that a 3500 has heads that flow even better than the 3400 heads? do you also realize that both of those motors almost bolt in place of the stock 2.8?

------------------
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imabaddude
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Report this Post11-19-2012 05:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for imabaddudeSend a Private Message to imabaddudeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:


do you guys realize that stock as cast 3400 heads outflow max effort portwork on the Gen 1 iron heads? do you also realize that a 3500 has heads that flow even better than the 3400 heads? do you also realize that both of those motors almost bolt in place of the stock 2.8?




I do, I was just stating that since he already stated he had all the parts for the top end.

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imabaddude
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Report this Post11-19-2012 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for imabaddudeSend a Private Message to imabaddudeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
edited blah

[This message has been edited by imabaddude (edited 11-19-2012).]

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AL87
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Report this Post11-20-2012 12:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ive read somewhere that the pre 88's are rpm limited, but at 6012? I wouldnt say that. probably at least 6500. Ive hit mine plenty of times.

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 11-28-2012).]

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