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Time to upgrade to the 3800sc. by Tweeder
Started on: 08-22-2012 12:34 AM
Replies: 203 (6573 views)
Last post by: Tweeder on 08-28-2013 12:43 AM
Tweeder
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Report this Post07-29-2013 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sco77:


I don't have a EVAP either, so I extended a hose to the driver side wheel well and put a small breather filter on it.. 90% of people dont recommend deleting EVAP though because of fuel odor and I guess your gas would also evaporate faster without a solenoid mechanism to close of the vent when it doesn't need purging. Might not be wise to do on a daily driver.





I was just thinking today, why not just put that vent line directly into the line at the throttle body or the octopus thingy on top? They're vacuum right, so it'll just go back into the motor.

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Report this Post07-29-2013 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Tweeder

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quote
Originally posted by Tweeder:

Well gettin closer, I hit the key and I could hear the fuel pump prime but got nothing at the starter. So I went underneith and shorted the starter and theres power as it cranked over but I don't have the coil pack in, plug wires, fuel lines or the vacuum hooked up yet. I just wanted to see if there was power to what. Any idear as to what to look for? I believe I have all grounds except the battery to the body, waiting on a strap but don't think that shoud matter if at all it might be slow to turn over.

EDIT: I just remembered something. The car originally was a standard an the po converted it to an auto, I remember at the c500 the purple wire was cut and can't remember if it was connected to something else? I think my problem lies there.


Any idears on this, can't drive if I can't start it.

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phonedawgz
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quote
Originally posted by Tweeder:


Any idears on this, can't drive if I can't start it.



GM put the starter solenoid wire on a different C500 pin if the car was an AT or MT. You need to move the wire from the position it is in now to the other one.

A4 is where it would be located if the car was an Automatic
E3 is where it would be if it was a manual.

So unbolt C500, then from the side of the connector remove the white secondary pin retention fork. If you can't find it, you need to keep on looking because none of the pins will come out till you find it and pull it out of the side of the connector. Then once it is out take about a 4 penny nail or something slightly smaller and slide it up from the connector side (stick side) and push down the tang holding in the terminal. If you have it pushed in correctly the wire will pull out of the back of the connector. Once out bend the tang back up. Stick the pin into the correct hole and then put the fork back in the side.
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phonedawgz

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The engine is designed not to run with the vacuum leak this would result in. Your idle speed will be too high. The PCM won't be giving the injectors the proper pulse. You will get a check engine light because the PCM doesn't see the solenoid's electrical load when it goes to turn it on.

Put the EVAP solenoid inbetween the two, wire the electrical connector in and then it will work properly.

 
quote
Originally posted by Tweeder:
I was just thinking today, why not just put that vent line directly into the line at the throttle body or the octopus thingy on top? They're vacuum right, so it'll just go back into the motor.


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Report this Post07-29-2013 10:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

The engine is designed not to run with the vacuum leak this would result in. Your idle speed will be too high. The PCM won't be giving the injectors the proper pulse. You will get a check engine light because the PCM doesn't see the solenoid's electrical load when it goes to turn it on.

Put the EVAP solenoid inbetween the two, wire the electrical connector in and then it will work properly.



yeah ok, I could have the solenoid on the firewall out of the way. I will hook it up.

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Report this Post07-29-2013 11:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:


GM put the starter solenoid wire on a different C500 pin if the car was an AT or MT. You need to move the wire from the position it is in now to the other one.

A4 is where it would be located if the car was an Automatic
E3 is where it would be if it was a manual.

So unbolt C500, then from the side of the connector remove the white secondary pin retention fork. If you can't find it, you need to keep on looking because none of the pins will come out till you find it and pull it out of the side of the connector. Then once it is out take about a 4 penny nail or something slightly smaller and slide it up from the connector side (stick side) and push down the tang holding in the terminal. If you have it pushed in correctly the wire will pull out of the back of the connector. Once out bend the tang back up. Stick the pin into the correct hole and then put the fork back in the side.


THanks dawgz, the problem was that I left the E3 where it was and put the new A4 where it should be, the problem is the cars was origionally a standard and there was no A4 wire on the car side, so what I did was take the yellow and put it into the E3 and cranky cranky.

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Report this Post07-31-2013 01:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In adding that purge solenoid back in, where do I add the pink wire?

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C203 Pin K
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Report this Post07-31-2013 07:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

C203 Pin K


Awesome thanks

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Report this Post08-01-2013 02:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
got her fired up tonight but due to what i believe is the vats, it dies right away. i have hptuners and i changed the vats from serial to pwm and set codes p1626 &p1629 to no report. i also got rid of the egr so i no errored codes p0403-405, 1404. i only have the one o2 right at the header so i no errored codes p0137-0141. does that about cover it?

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Report this Post08-02-2013 12:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Tonight I verified that both wires on each injectors have power and all sark plug wires have spark also. All,I get is a couple seconds of run time then it dies and then allit does is crank over. There's new fuel in the tank also.

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Report this Post08-02-2013 01:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah that's what the VATs does.
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Report this Post08-02-2013 01:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Yeah that's what the VATs does.


But I thought that vats killed power to the injectors? What is the vats disabling to keep the engine from starting?

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To fire an injector, the PCM grounds the non-pink wire of the injector. Since the other side is hot (at +12v), the injector then has 12v across it and the injector opens.

At key on, engine off, since the PCM isn't grounding the non-pink wire of the injector, both sides will read +12v when measured with a meter referenced to ground.

How VATs works. When the PCM doesn't see the VATs signal and the engine is started, the PCM will stop firing (grounding) the injectors.

There is nothing to stop the ICM (Ignition) from working. The wire runs directly from C500 to the ICM. Anytime the key is on and the engine is turning you should have spark.

---

Clip your test light to the positive battery terminal. The light will be out till you touch the tip of your test light to ground. That is how the injectors are wired.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 08-02-2013).]

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Report this Post08-02-2013 03:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just before I got to this I read that the vats kills the pump do to disconnect that and spray starting fluid to see if it'll continue running. So I disconnected the steel braided hose from the rubber hose and put the rubber end in a bucket and was going to spray starting fluid. I got the wife to crank it over and the fuel kept a steady stream in the bucket and the car fired up for about 5 seconds, I presume until it ran out of fuel that was still in the lines. What do y'all make of that? Too much fuel? And it's flooding it?

Also when I did the testing on the injectors I got the wife to crank it over and there was power to the injectors while it was cranking also.
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[This message has been edited by Tweeder (edited 08-03-2013).]

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Report this Post08-03-2013 07:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump.

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Report this Post08-04-2013 12:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for EvilSqueezlesClick Here to Email EvilSqueezlesSend a Private Message to EvilSqueezlesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not sure on this setup. But on my 99 s10 the vats killed power to the pump
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Report this Post08-04-2013 12:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by EvilSqueezles:

Not sure on this setup. But on my 99 s10 the vats killed power to the pump


Yeah the pump filled up a 1 liter ice cream pail in no time flat but it also is a 300lph pump.

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Report this Post08-04-2013 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also The 4T65EHD trans has the throw reversed at the PRND321 switch. Your shift lever needs to be all the way back if you haven't sorted that out yet.

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Report this Post08-04-2013 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah I read about that and now it's there I see, thanks.

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Report this Post08-04-2013 07:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There must have been fuel in the intake for it to have started. The injectors (valve) opens and there is normally 40psi of fuel behind the valve. At nearly 0 psi an open injector is not going to pass enough fuel to fire a cylinder even if there is still fuel in the lines.

The VATs turns stops firing the injectors. You should easily be able to figure out if the fuel pump is running or not. Many GM cars use the oil pressure switch as a back up to the PCM controlled relay. If the VATs turned off the relay, the fuel pump would still be running on the oil pressure switch.
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Report this Post08-04-2013 08:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

There must have been fuel in the intake for it to have started. The injectors (valve) opens and there is normally 40psi of fuel behind the valve. At nearly 0 psi an open injector is not going to pass enough fuel to fire a cylinder even if there is still fuel in the lines.

The VATs turns stops firing the injectors. You should easily be able to figure out if the fuel pump is running or not. Many GM cars use the oil pressure switch as a back up to the PCM controlled relay. If the VATs turned off the relay, the fuel pump would still be running on the oil pressure switch.


Yeah the pump is running I disconnected the lines and put one into a bucket and as soon as the key was on the pump primed then I got the wife to start cranking and all the while the pump was pumping, then the engine fired up slowly for about 5 seconds. A lot more than any other time before. Mabey like you said the pump was running off the oil pressure switch. I did notice that I seemed to have missed 2 vats releated (p1630+p1631). I'm waiting on support as now I'm getting an error saying it can't connect to the vcm and to check the cable and make sure it's in run.

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Report this Post08-05-2013 09:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well if this was connecting before and is not connecting now what changed?

Any chance the OBD2 connector splices got disturbed?
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Report this Post08-05-2013 11:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Well if this was connecting before and is not connecting now what changed?

Any chance the OBD2 connector splices got disturbed?


Not sure? I thought me rootering around unde the dash might have caused it. Support is still figuring things out as they said just because it reads another vehicle doesn't mean much as sometimes different vehicles use different chips in there interfaces.

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Report this Post08-05-2013 08:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

KOEO 19,68,20 have power as you said. Here's a weird thing I used to have power to pin 2 from pcm 59 on the Obd and now I don't, all I get is a flash of power every few seconds.

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Report this Post08-11-2013 12:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not sure how but got the above fixed. I loaded the new tune via hpt with the other two vats codes removed but it seems to. Doing the same thing with it starting for a few seconds then nothing. The only difference is now I can get it to do that with almost every turn of the key as with before I would have to wait for thepcm to reset itself. Now I have three codes p0452, p0463 and p1189, will any one of these codes cause a vehicle not to start? Also someone told me that there's no way to turn off the vats on the regal pcm's and to change to te gtp pcm's, any truth to that? I do have a compatable PCM from a 2000 gtp I picked up just incase.

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Report this Post08-11-2013 01:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sco77Click Here to Email sco77Send a Private Message to sco77Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think those are some codes you need to delete, they shouldn't have anything to do with it not running I don't think. I would try the other PCM and see what happens.

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Report this Post08-11-2013 01:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sco77:

I think those are some codes you need to delete, they shouldn't have anything to do with it not running I don't think. I would try the other PCM and see what happens.



I'm a little hesitant to put the other PCM in as I will have to use two credits to license it to be able to disable the vats in that tune and kill the egr and rear o2 codes.

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Report this Post08-16-2013 03:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just got a response from hpt from a log I sent. They say the vats is ok but he did notice the ect reading -38f sometimes causes a no start. Anyone know anything about that? Also how to check if the ect is ok?

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Report this Post08-16-2013 08:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I went out to double check my wiring and sure enough the yellow wire from the sensor was supposed to be in the clear 26, I had it in the 28 slot. I changed it and now it reads the correct temp but it still won't start.

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Report this Post08-17-2013 12:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just checked and yeah I have spark and it'll run on starting fluid. I also back probed the injectors and there's power to both wires with KOEO intill it's cranked over then they ground out. I used the power probe III and it went from a positive battery voltage to a negative 0.0.

EDIT: I was just looking at what Phonedawgz posted about the injectors. If that's the case then I should be getting fuel as I did see the injector getting grounded, but I will have to re check for the other wire as I remember while cranking both wires were getting grounded.
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[This message has been edited by Tweeder (edited 08-17-2013).]

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Report this Post08-17-2013 11:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump.

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Report this Post08-18-2013 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I did verify that both injector wires do ground out while cranking, could that be the reason for not starting? I was under the impression that the pink wires are always hot.

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Report this Post08-24-2013 12:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got'er figured out, it was the vats. I downloaded a 2000 gtp tune and loaded it up and vroom, vroom. The only thing is it will not stay running unless I press the gas. I have a few codes:

P0206 - what to look for whats causing this?
P0300 - I think it's because of the #6 injector
P0449 - I will delete this code as I have deleted the egr
P0452
P0463
P0481
P0530 - I don't have a/c so I guess I should delete this code?
P1546 - same here
P1653 -

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Report this Post08-24-2013 08:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sco77Click Here to Email sco77Send a Private Message to sco77Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would say your cylinder 6 isn't firing at all... Either the injector hot lost it's connection or the other wire isn't connected or connected to the right pin on the PCM

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Report this Post08-24-2013 07:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sco77:

I would say your cylinder 6 isn't firing at all... Either the injector hot lost it's connection or the other wire isn't connected or connected to the right pin on the PCM



Yeah you were right about the pin, when I took all the wires out to clean it up and label I put it in the egr pin so now it's firing but it still won't run with out pressing the gas. It will run if I pull the vacuum line of the fuel pressure regulator but as soon as I put it back on it dies. Any idears? I'm just wondering if it's how I have my vacuum lines ran? I have a line from the octopus thingy near the throttle body to the fuel pressure regulator. Then I have another seperate line from the port in the lim to the map. And another line comming from the throttle body to the Purge solenoid and the other end of the solenoid goes to the line off the fuel tank. Looking at other diagrams should I go from the lim port to the map to the fuel pressure regulator to the octopus thingy?

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86 SE Convertible 3800sc 4t65e HD.

[This message has been edited by Tweeder (edited 08-24-2013).]

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sco77
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Report this Post08-24-2013 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sco77Click Here to Email sco77Send a Private Message to sco77Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The MAP and the fpr MUST be on the LIM vacuum port.

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86 Fiero GT 4spd - L67 swap: VS cam, GenV. Needs exhaust (ETA 9/13) Build Progress
98 GTP - Some mods

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Tweeder
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Report this Post08-25-2013 12:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I hooked the map and the fpr to the nipple under the sc and it still wouldn't stay running so I googled it and it mentioned the maf. So I unplugged the maf and it starts up and stays running, so what's that mean?

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86 SE Convertible 3800sc 4t65e HD.

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sco77
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Report this Post08-25-2013 10:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sco77Click Here to Email sco77Send a Private Message to sco77Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Most likely a bad MAF then, or incorrect tables programmed to PCM (if stock TB: 97-98 MAF is different than 99+ MAF).

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86 Fiero GT 4spd - L67 swap: VS cam, GenV. Needs exhaust (ETA 9/13) Build Progress
98 GTP - Some mods

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Report this Post08-25-2013 10:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sco77:

Most likely a bad MAF then, or incorrect tables programmed to PCM (if stock TB: 97-98 MAF is different than 99+ MAF).



Yeah I'm gonna try cleaning it and see. I looked at the tables from my stock tune and the one I used and they are the same for the maf.

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86 SE Convertible 3800sc 4t65e HD.

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