This is my 3.8 VIN 3 swap thread. I am presenting the thread as FYI entertainment more than a recommendation really. A little history- my initial investment was cheap to get this engine. They aren't terribly plentiful anymore but if you find one cheap and like to get into engine building, its does have a few things to recommend it. Right off the bat, I'm well aware of the 3800 SC & NA virtues. And to that point, if I did not want to build an engine, I would probably go down the 3800 path. A few virtues of this swap- the VIN 3 is basically the same as a GN motor except for the bellhousing flange, motor mount holes and crankshaft but the crank has the GN rolled fillets on the journals for strength; same heads, rods as a GN. As a close GN cousin, there is still alot of performance stuff out there for the engine, especially from T/A Performance, and performance machine shops that know the GN engine aren't hard to find (but if a prospective shop seez to you "hell, its jess like a small block" walk out- 'cause it ain't). Other virtues- very easy to connect to the stock Fiero ECM because it has a distributor, mounts the same air conditioning compressor as the 2.8 (might have to change the A/C clutch, we'll see), EFI intake shows promise for porting, not as restrictive as our 2.8's, uses the same front conversion engine mount as a 3800. Below is a picture of the beastprior to tear down. More to come!
BR's Mark
[This message has been edited by MarkS (edited 07-14-2013).]
Does that use Turbo TA style heads or GN style heads?
Is that engine better than the 88-91 VIN C?
Do you know how it compares to the 3300 found in similar years?
This engine uses the GN heads not the T-T/A heads. The T-T/A heads had origins to the 86-87 version of my engine. I would say the VIN C being a 3800 series 1 is a better engine really. In fact, I think the Series 1 was a smoother engine than the Series 2 3800. The 3300 was a reduced displacement version of the Series 1 3800 I believe. There was a 3.0 version of my 85 VIN 3 that was found in some smaller FWD Buicks of the time. The block is the same as my 3.8 but used a shorter stroke crank.
When I first got the engine, I was really thinking a 300+ HP turbo V6 would be just so so- SO damn FINE!. A little 2 seat bullet!
Well, the intended car, an 86 SE V6 has the 4spd muncie, not an automatic. Most of what I read about the Buick GN / T-T/A engine is that it works best with a 4spd automatic, not a manual. I would need to pick up a 4T60, shifter. cooler lines, GN ECM, DIS, turbo, intercooler ect and the 6000 drive axles. And then there's all that custom exhaust plumbing that would need doing....nah, I chickened out. Besides, simplicity is one of my goals here.
We're going to do an N/A version of the engine and keep the 4 spd. To that end, a custom flywheel would be required because the VIN 3 was never available with a manual. LSC provided a custom flywheel for me patterned after my flexplate and a standard Fiero clutch set up. As the VIN 3 is externally balanced, I had the new flywheel matched balanced to the flexplate at a local machine shop.
Technically, the Vin C isn't a Series I, its just a 3800. The next gen motor was the Series I
If you want the Vin 3 motor, they aren't too hard to come by, but they are a bit harder than the Vin C. Lots of Buick LeSabres, Olds 88, Bonneville, Olds 98, etc. had them, usually somewhere in 85-87 cars.
Technically, the Vin C isn't a Series I, its just a 3800. The next gen motor was the Series I
If you want the Vin 3 motor, they aren't too hard to come by, but they are a bit harder than the Vin C. Lots of Buick LeSabres, Olds 88, Bonneville, Olds 98, etc. had them, usually somewhere in 85-87 cars.
How about that, learn something new everyday. I know the VIN L 93 up had some revisions to VIN C but I thought since 88 they were all considered series 1's.
Update...We have the slugs, SP Hypereutectics. These will yield a healthy 9.7:1 CR compared to the stock 8.0:1 (barely) CR.
Here is a picture of my eBay heads. These heads carry the same casting # as the stock GN heads except that the exhaust crossover / EGR ports are blocked off as cast, saving a little $ when we port 'em. These were used for about 60 hrs on a GM test engine, they are in great condition and the price was right. Never know what you'll run across now and then. Manley has a nice set of Stls Stl valves for these guys.
Next up is cam selection. Been looking at Comp Cams, Crower, & Lunati. The CC offerings are the familiar Hi Intensity grinds up to 268H. The Crower and Lunati's offer split profile grinds. The CC kit is priced right but I have to believe the split grinds will perform better. More research required here....
Interesting .. I'm doing a 3.8l LG3 build from an 87 Pontiac Bonneville. After long debating what to do with the engine I came to the conclusion that this engine is good for only one thing (if you want maximum performance) TURBO! You could go carbed with all the Edelbrock stuff but then again you'll never go much above 200hp 250 tq #'s. That's probably fine for the 4 or 5 speed cars but for an auto it just doesen't make sence. Good to know that the front mount is the same as the 3800 conversion mount tho.
BTW I'm putting it into the same car 86 SE (Same colour as the one in the picture - Metalic with black ground effects) but the car is an auto.
[This message has been edited by fieroall (edited 04-19-2010).]
Interesting .. I'm doing a 3.8l LG3 build from an 87 Pontiac Bonneville. After long debating what to do with the engine I came to the conclusion that this engine is good for only one thing (if you want maximum performance) TURBO! You could go carbed with all the Edelbrock stuff but then again you'll never go much above 200hp 250 tq #'s. That's probably fine for the 4 or 5 speed cars but for an auto it just doesen't make sence. Good to know that the front mount is the same as the 3800 conversion mount tho.
BTW I'm putting it into the same car 86 SE (Same colour as the one in the picture - Metalic with black ground effects) but the car is an auto.
Yeah, a turbo would be nice, heck the old GN Regals could really kick ass and with a little tuning...Damn!! But now I have 9.7:1 pistons so the turbo is not in the cards for me which is OK.
The '87 engine you have has a roller cam does it not? At one point, I had an opportunity to get one of those '87's myself. Delta said they could regrind the roller cam for more performance if you are interested. Let us know how you make out.
The car in the picture is silver w/ black ground effects with an automatic but its a very low mile original that I am going to keep bone stock. The other 86 is white with a 4 spd that used to be my daily driver years ago.
If it has a distrib, it has a oil pump in the front cover. the timing chain cover is the oil pump housing. the cover is alum. the oil pump gears are steel. ANY thing in the oil eats the oil pump housing. You used to be able to get a plate and longer gears to make it pump more oil. when you put it together pack the pump gears with vasaleen, so it will prime. The top of the distrib will clear the hood hinge box, just. If you ever want a carb on it, the intake will bolt on backwards.
If it has a distrib, it has a oil pump in the front cover. the timing chain cover is the oil pump housing. the cover is alum. the oil pump gears are steel. ANY thing in the oil eats the oil pump housing. You used to be able to get a plate and longer gears to make it pump more oil. when you put it together pack the pump gears with vasaleen, so it will prime. The top of the distrib will clear the hood hinge box, just. If you ever want a carb on it, the intake will bolt on backwards.
Thanks FFEIROFRED, I had some concerns about the distibutor cap clearence. T/A Performance has the oil pump goodies, definitely on my list. As well, complete new front covers are available if needed. Seems that machine shops that specilize in Buicks offer "front cover blueprinting" as even the big block 455's use this oil pump configuration.
im putting this in my favorites. i just got a series I LG3 engine. came from 1990 Buick Electra
paid $100 for the car. i just got to get the engine home. ill take some snap shots of it once its here
it looks similar to your engine. just different valve covers. but the intake looks similar to yours tho.
you say you can put a carb on the 3.8 LG3? i gotta look into that. that wouuld get rid of all the ecm crap. not a big fan of the computerized stuff. im old school guy and like things simple and less complicated. and for a turbo. will the stock internals hold up or will you be needing to upgrade?
just read some more info about the LG3 engine. i also was reading about the supercharged series I engines also. the supercharged series I has a semi forged bottom end, larger throttle body and afew other upgrades. i was wondering if you would see any performence using the larger throttle body. and could you use the crankshaft from the Series 2 supercharged engine also? since there forged and everything.
im putting this in my favorites. i just got a series I LG3 engine. came from 1990 Buick Electra
paid $100 for the car. i just got to get the engine home. ill take some snap shots of it once its here
it looks similar to your engine. just different valve covers. but the intake looks similar to yours tho.
you say you can put a carb on the 3.8 LG3? i gotta look into that. that wouuld get rid of all the ecm crap. not a big fan of the computerized stuff. im old school guy and like things simple and less complicated. and for a turbo. will the stock internals hold up or will you be needing to upgrade?
I think a 3.8 (3800) from a 1990 would be an LN3? I believe an LG3 would be from an 87. I am not an LN3 expert by any means but unfortunately I do not believe anything between an 85 VIN C (my engine), an LG3, an LN3 or Series 2 crosses, except for maybe the crankshaft and rods from 85 to 87. Most everything else is different. Others may comment on this. I saw a write up years ago about a guy that swapped a modified LN3 into a Fiero, beautiful job, painted the car teal green.
The LN3 and LG3 are very different. LN3 is a better design BUT... if yo're looking to go turbo the LG3 (pre 1988) is the best option as all the GN parts swap over onto it. Makes the job much easyer.
hey i currently have this engine in my fiero, i plan on turboing it do guys have any recomendations, and is the lg3 a 231 cu. also updates on your cars
------------------ farve doing what farve does best, creating anger in all of us.(or just F ing up in the 4th quarter)
This is my 3.8 VIN 3 swap thread. Woo-Hoo! I am presenting the thread as FYI entertainment more than a recommendation really. A little history- my initial investment was cheap to get this engine. They aren't terribly plentiful anymore but if you find one cheap and like to get into engine building, its does have a few things to recommend it. Right off the bat, I'm well aware of the 3800 SC & NA virtues. And to that point, if I did not want to build an engine, I would probably go down the 3800 path. A few virtues of this swap- the VIN 3 is basically the same as a GN motor except for the bellhousing flange, motor mount holes and crankshaft but the crank has the GN rolled fillets on the journals for strength; same heads, rods as a GN. As a close GN cousin, there is still alot of performance stuff out there for the engine, especially from T/A Performance, and performance machine shops that know the GN engine aren't hard to find (but if a prospective shop seez to you "hell, its jess like a small block" walk out- 'cause it ain't). Other virtues- very easy to connect to the stock Fiero ECM because it has a distributor, mounts the same air conditioning compressor as the 2.8 (might have to change the A/C clutch, we'll see), EFI intake shows promise for porting, not as restrictive as our 2.8's, uses the same front conversion engine mount as a 3800. Below is a picture of the beastprior to tear down. More to come!
BR's Mark
very interesting exhaust manifolds, not yoru typical "cast" manifolds
Update...We have the slugs, SP Hypereutectics. These will yield a healthy 9.7:1 CR compared to the stock 8.0:1 (barely) CR.
Here is a picture of my eBay heads. These heads carry the same casting # as the stock GN heads except that the exhaust crossover / EGR ports are blocked off as cast, saving a little $ when we port 'em. These were used for about 60 hrs on a GM test engine, they are in great condition and the price was right. Never know what you'll run across now and then. Manley has a nice set of Stls Stl valves for these guys.
Next up is cam selection. Been looking at Comp Cams, Crower, & Lunati. The CC offerings are the familiar Hi Intensity grinds up to 268H. The Crower and Lunati's offer split profile grinds. The CC kit is priced right but I have to believe the split grinds will perform better. More research required here....
More to come,
Mark
why not keep the stock 8:1 compression in case you wish to turbo and boost the crap out of it later? a compression boost to 9.7:1 really won't yield too much of a power increase, and you will eventually get bored with the N/A setup.....
hey i currently have this engine in my fiero, i plan on turboing it do guys have any recomendations, and is the lg3 a 231 cu. also updates on your cars
The LG3 should have the rolled fillet crankshaft which is good for strength and reliabilty. If the bottom end of the engine is in good shape with decent oil pressure and reasonable mileage, shouldn't be too difficult, I am not a turbo expert though.
why not keep the stock 8:1 compression in case you wish to turbo and boost the crap out of it later? a compression boost to 9.7:1 really won't yield too much of a power increase, and you will eventually get bored with the N/A setup.....
Ugh, yeah turbo'ing would be nice but this thing is dragging on long already. The n/a 3.8 is / was an alternative to a 3.4 for me. From what I've read, the 522 Speed Pro pistons are key to waking up a n/a 3.8 with a performance cam. The project has been idle for awhile while we do college visits & tours for #1 son. Talk about spending a load of $$$, college will do that for ya, no problem!
Thanks & BR's,
MarkS
------------------ 86 SE V6 4 speed 86 SE V6 Auto 2008 G6 GT "Street" Coupe
If you ever want a carb on it, the intake will bolt on backwards.
Well, we haven't done much recently with the short block but we're going to start off with a carb set up. I was able to gather an Offy manifold, 450 Holley and a rebuilt non-EFI distributor for peanuts. The manifold is decent, it will be glass beaded to clean it up. The 450 has the side hung floats so we will be keeping an eye out for center hung bowls, otherwise it should be good with a kit in it. More to come....
------------------ 86 SE V6 4 speed 86 SE V6 Auto 2008 G6 GT "Street" Coupe
Basically, this is a bump because we haven't really made any progress lately but I am re-thinking the carb / EFI thing. I guess my EFI concern is getting a good tune on the Fiero computer for the Buick engine. The original Buick EFI used a MAF and the Fiero is set up for a MAP system. I assume initial start up wouldn't be a problem running with the ALDL jumped as both are even fire V6's. It might even run OK closed loop but don't know. Don't want to trash the engine. Other option might be a Haltech E6GMX ECM but they are a little pricey.
Any thoughts EFI guys?
BR's,
Mark
PS On the other hand, a 4bbl velocity stack sticking though the deck lid might be cool. Sure would sound good I bet.
------------------ 86 SE V6 4 speed 86 SE V6 Auto 2008 G6 GT "Street" Coupe
Basically, this is a bump because we haven't really made any progress lately but I am re-thinking the carb / EFI thing. I guess my EFI concern is getting a good tune on the Fiero computer for the Buick engine. The original Buick EFI used a MAF and the Fiero is set up for a MAP system. I assume initial start up wouldn't be a problem running with the ALDL jumped as both are even fire V6's. It might even run OK closed loop but don't know. Don't want to trash the engine. Other option might be a Haltech E6GMX ECM but they are a little pricey.
Maf works quite well, the original buick setup would be a near direct swap into the fiero ECU tray as well.. It would seem like a no brainer here?
Well, the original MAF was external to the thottle body and looked extremely restrictive flow wise. Concerned because the engine is getting a much bigger cam than stock. Don't know how these MAF's are calibrated meaning can a different / larger one be used? The original Buick ECM did have a knock sensor so if this can be figured out, there is an added benefit.
Thanks,
Mark
------------------ 86 SE V6 4 speed 86 SE V6 Auto 2008 G6 GT "Street" Coupe 2005 Buick 3.6 Rendezvous 2001 Olds Silhouette (AKA The Band Van)
the old 3.8 's had 2 maf's. the big cars had a bigger one than the mid size cars. the big ones are straight through, not necked down in the middle. on the distributer make sure you have a even fire not a odd fire.
Update...We have the slugs, SP Hypereutectics. These will yield a healthy 9.7:1 CR compared to the stock 8.0:1 (barely) CR.
Holy compression height, batman!
Looks like V6 pistons are something like $250/set from Summit. If you haven't had the crank balanced yet, you could easily snag a set of lower compression slugs and sell off your high compression units.
the old 3.8 's had 2 maf's. the big cars had a bigger one than the mid size cars. the big ones are straight through, not necked down in the middle. on the distributer make sure you have a even fire not a odd fire.
Well FFIEROFRED, seems you are correct about the 2 different MAF's! Looks like, even though my engine came from a big Electra, it must of had the "WF4 enhanced driveability option" which appears to include the more restrictive MAF. The non-WF4 Electra has the larger straight through job.
More digging, the computer has a different p/n for the non-WF4 Electra. Also, a note saying this ECM doesn't use an air temp sensor. The driveability thing starts to make sense, wonder if WF4 was a mid-year change.
Thanks,
Mark
------------------ 86 SE V6 4 speed 86 SE V6 Auto 2008 G6 GT "Street" Coupe 2005 Buick 3.6 Rendezvous 2001 Olds Silhouette (AKA The Band Van)
why not keep the stock 8:1 compression in case you wish to turbo and boost the crap out of it later? a compression boost to 9.7:1 really won't yield too much of a power increase, and you will eventually get bored with the N/A setup.....
That compression thing......Smokey Yunick would like to disagree with you.
Under iron heads, I'd think 9:1 would make a great street turbo setup. 9.7's getting a little high. I would not go back to 8:1 unless 35 psi was in the plan.
Under iron heads, I'd think 9:1 would make a great street turbo setup. 9.7's getting a little high. I would not go back to 8:1 unless 35 psi was in the plan.
I suspect the slugs could be dished out to get to 9:1 from 9.7 without too much trouble....yikes--carb, or MAP or MAF or Boost...I have a hard enough time deciding what to have for lunch...
Mark
------------------ 86 SE V6 4 speed 86 SE V6 Auto 2008 G6 GT "Street" Coupe 2005 Buick 3.6 Rendezvous 2001 Olds Silhouette (AKA The Band Van)
Under iron heads, I'd think 9:1 would make a great street turbo setup. 9.7's getting a little high. I would not go back to 8:1 unless 35 psi was in the plan.
Meh, you guys are thinking about this way too much...
The "preferred" compression ratio for m90 powered series2's is 10.5:1... There are also many many 9.5:1 compression naturally aspirated motors running upwards of 17-18psi of boost out of a turbo without issues. The whole "compression vs boost" thing is really dumb if you ask me, I never understood the reason why you would want to mess with now with the large selection of turbos available. The only reason I would see anyone changing compression ratio would be for moving turbo compressor efficiency around a bit... but I dont think many of us are looking for every last horsepower when setting up stuff like this.
Meh, you guys are thinking about this way too much...
The "preferred" compression ratio for m90 powered series2's is 10.5:1... There are also many many 9.5:1 compression naturally aspirated motors running upwards of 17-18psi of boost out of a turbo without issues. The whole "compression vs boost" thing is really dumb if you ask me, I never understood the reason why you would want to mess with now with the large selection of turbos available. The only reason I would see anyone changing compression ratio would be for moving turbo compressor efficiency around a bit... but I dont think many of us are looking for every last horsepower when setting up stuff like this.
Compression of the DI Turbo Ecotec engine is 9.0:1, evern with direct injection and aluminum heads. Also don't forget that the '80's heads use chamber designs that are more than 30 years old at this point.
And you're in Michigan, right? Or at least the Northern Mid-West? You worry about 90 degrees and 90% humidity maybe three days a year.
So, at the end of the day you might be down 5HP because you have to run less boost.... in the meantime you are getting better gas mileage and better off boost power.... Compression never limits power, it just changes things around a bit.
