I was reading one of John-WI's 88 T-Top Book threads which mentioned that one particular Fiero had T-Tops that went all the way back to the rear upper quarter and didn't have the plastic insert.
Does anyone have any pictures of the unusual T-Top design this Fiero had (either this car or another)? The pictures in the thread were photobucket and are gone now.
This is a bit of a tangent for your purposes, but check out the 88 GT T-top that recently sold in the mall. It was not an original car. It was painted mint green, but looked very good in the pics.
The really special thing about this car is that it did not have the black plastic trim pieces between the T-top glass and the rear clip. The glass extended all the way back to the rear clip.
I have only (maybe) seen pictures of one other car that had this setup. Looks to be a very early production kit, that was retrofitted. Wish I could have picked up the car.
Not sure what to make of this top. I saw other with larger glass.
I doubt it was a prototype or pre production as the the tops were designed and built in 1983.
I almost wonder if someone has found a glass that works in the space with the trim out from another model. The rear seal looks like trim from the bottom of a wall in a building.
People tend to get hung up on the 88 numbers when the truth is these tops were available on the 84. They just did not have a option code.
Pontiac did bless the tops and permitted dealers to have C&C install them with out voiding the warranty.
I forget the total number of top kid made were some where 6k to 7k I was told. Many kits were installed but some were used in other cars and all warranty parts came from opened kits.
The only running change I know of was the seal on the top was two piece in the kit and became one for 88 to speed up install work.
In fact the same C&C facility did the install on many kits as well the factory option 88. Some kits were done by authorized C&C dealers.
"I responded to your PM, but it looks like the images "broke" in the translation. "
Thanks Raydar. I had posted a thread before I decided to PM you.
That's pretty cool. You don't happen to have a picture of the glass from the side like the ones you posted above with the T-tops out do you?
I wonder if the prototype tops were borrowed from a Firebird or Camaro or something else C&C was already selling tops for. The Fiero has the smallest tops I've ever seen so I know those other cars had larger tops.
I always thought the factory tops would look better without the black plastic panel. When I get mine painted was thinking about painting over the plastic with the body color. I think it might look better to sand that part down and fill in the crack between the fastback panel and the plastic panel so it looks like it's part of the fastback as one integrated piece. Doesn't seem like that would be too hard.
"I responded to your PM, but it looks like the images "broke" in the translation. "
Thanks Raydar. I had posted a thread before I decided to PM you.
That's pretty cool. You don't happen to have a picture of the glass from the side like the ones you posted above with the T-tops out do you?
I wonder if the prototype tops were borrowed from a Firebird or Camaro or something else C&C was already selling tops for. The Fiero has the smallest tops I've ever seen so I know those other cars had larger tops.
I always thought the factory tops would look better without the black plastic panel. When I get mine painted was thinking about painting over the plastic with the body color. I think it might look better to sand that part down and fill in the crack between the fastback panel and the plastic panel so it looks like it's part of the fastback as one integrated piece. Doesn't seem like that would be too hard.
Those were all the pics that I have. I would have liked to see the glass more closely, too. Hard to tell if the rear edge of the glass curves into the corner, or if that curve is filled by the metal bezel(?) on the outside edge of the glass. I'm thinking that cutting that curve might have been complex (and spendy). Hence, the change to the smaller, squared off glass. The smaller glass panels would also have been marginally easier to store, although I'm not sure that would have been a consideration.
Hard call on painting the trim pieces the same color as the roof clip. If you're going to do that, I would paint the center strip and the outside trim bezels, too. One of the guys in our club (top notch) did that with his yellow T-top car. Looks good.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-14-2022).]
Again I doubt this was a prototype as the car is too new. The tops were done in 83 on a pilot coupe.
That came from the man who was in charge of the program and later owned the company C&C became.
I will see if I can track him down and get his take here if I can find him.
I'm thinking it was an old - maybe prototype kit that was purchased and retrofitted to a later car. Seems like there were all sorts of unused kits and parts floating around. Or it may have even been removed from another (maybe even a pilot) car. There are an endless number of possibilities. Tim (fieropartsdotcom) or Mike V (mrfiero) might know some more about these. Mike bought out all of Tim's T top stuff.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-14-2022).]
I've seen this car before and maybe another one, but my memory is failing me. All I know is it struck me as odd-looking with the larger glass and no filler panels.
I have only (maybe) seen one other Fiero with this roof.
quote
Originally posted by mrfiero:
I've seen this car before and maybe another one, but my memory is failing me. All I know is it struck me as odd-looking with the larger glass and no filler panels.
Okay... That's two of us.
I wonder if Tim or Ray Paulk might know something...
I'm thinking it was an old - maybe prototype kit that was purchased and retrofitted to a later car. Seems like there were all sorts of unused kits and parts floating around. Or it may have even been removed from another (maybe even a pilot) car. There are an endless number of possibilities. Tim (fieropartsdotcom) or Mike V (mrfiero) might know some more about these. Mike bought out all of Tim's T top stuff.
My gut says too much is being read in here.
I am still trying to find Phillip Edwards as he was the head of the T top program at C&C. He bought the T top unit and renamed it Skylight roofs before selling it off. He was a rep for performance mfgs but may be retired by now.
I don’t see it as a Prototype kit as from what he told me there were just one prototype and then the kits that were made from then on.
I believe someone just fitted larger tops to this car. The rubber hose may be to fill the gap in the front. The real looks like they went to Home Depot to fit the panels. A prototype would not be this crude.
I still wager something like Mustang tops on a Fiero.
Let’s face it glass is not easy to find good glass is very hard to find. This is why I term the way to remove the tops is with the death grip.
The very early kits were longer glass and no cross trim. This was in 1984.
They redid the glass tops and added the trim.
Here is a phot of the first TTop car and it had the longer glass. These other cars are likely cars retrofitted with used kits and a mix of home made seals.
Look close here is the phot of the first car used in their marketing.
The very early kits were longer glass and no cross trim. This was in 1984.
They redid the glass tops and added the trim.
Thanks for asking about this. Next time you talk to him, I'd be curious to hear how many of the early design were made. Also did thy make the design change due to $$ or aesthetics.
Yes. The more I thought about this (before you posted this), the more I was thinking...those can't be tops from another car because the rear curve of the glass is fitted exactly to the upper fastback quarter panel rounded top. There's no way any other car would have that exact same curvature.
I would guess as someone else posted that the cost to make that rounded concave edge added $$ to the production cost and there was no need for glass to cover frame. Mounted on the car it really looks nice though not having those filler panels.
Another alternative would have been to reuse part of the painted roof panel instead of the filler, but that would have required more care when cutting the fiberglass roof off. If I were doing my own install, I think I would have tried that.
I really do like the installed look of the longer glass on these.
One other complication...if you were the owner of this car and something happened to one of the T-tops you'd be totally screwed. There'd be no way to replace them. The only thing you could do would be to buy some of the filler panels and smaller T-tops and convert to the "normal" design.
Thanks for asking about this. Next time you talk to him, I'd be curious to hear how many of the early design were made. Also did thy make the design change due to $$ or aesthetics.
Yes. The more I thought about this (before you posted this), the more I was thinking...those can't be tops from another car because the rear curve of the glass is fitted exactly to the upper fastback quarter panel rounded top. There's no way any other car would have that exact same curvature.
I would guess as someone else posted that the cost to make that rounded concave edge added $$ to the production cost and there was no need for glass to cover frame. Mounted on the car it really looks nice though not having those filler panels.
Another alternative would have been to reuse part of the painted roof panel instead of the filler, but that would have required more care when cutting the fiberglass roof off. If I were doing my own install, I think I would have tried that.
I really do like the installed look of the longer glass on these.
One other complication...if you were the owner of this car and something happened to one of the T-tops you'd be totally screwed. There'd be no way to replace them. The only thing you could do would be to buy some of the filler panels and smaller T-tops and convert to the "normal" design.
I actually found this in this website. But I will still try to get ahold of Phillip.
I used to see him at work but since Covid I am working from home now so I don’t get to see the company reps like I used to.
It still could be glass from something else. They just cut the roof to size.
I spent a weekend with him at a Fiero event years ago and got a lot of the story. He said that they asked Pontiac to do a TTop but Pontiac said it was impossible. He was able to get a pilot car in mid 83 and took it back and they converted it with in weeks.
He took it back to Pontiac and their engineers were shocked.
He said the approached Pontiac each year to use it as a factory option and were rejected. But they did get the dealer installed option blessing to where dealers could have them installed sold as new with no warranty implications.
Then they got the blessing for a factory option.
What is funny is those cars were trucked to Brighton MI and converted but the same guys in the same plant that did most 84-87 cars.
The guy that did mine was a C&C guy that was hired away to a trim shop here in Akron when they became an authorized dealer.
Even though they did mine after I bought it they listed under the dealer I bought it from to cover my warranty.
We had a number of dealers here selling these with the small add on sticker to the window.
Some people are obsessed about the 88 models but if you really know the truth there is little difference between the early installs vs the 88 models if done by C&C or their dealer.
The reinstalls that have been done can vary as they may only be as good as the guy who installed it. I have seen some well installed and others not so much.
In many cases the pre 88 installs were very well done as only one guy did all the work. It was a two day deal when you let it dry.
C&C did a number of tops from Mustangs to Chargers Monte Carlos etc. some of these tops were very small and with the top assembly being some what cut to size they could have fitted an existing top that worked but was not perfect till they added a trim strip.
Help in mind sun roofs are also used in other cars. The sun roof from the CTS Cadillac was also used in a HHR Chevy. That is why the HHR got a better roof than just a flip up.
Roof dims are close on curves.
If I get ahold I will ask what they used. With such a short time to convert my gut says they used something off the shelf to start.
What is funny I have had a C&C t top sales brochure with this photo since 84 and never noticed the difference.
Good morning to all, sorry I don't check Pennocks like I used to religiously (Lol) back in the day. Some fiero folks said some of you had been asking a couple of questions for me. So I will try to keep short and to the point. Yes, still working on the book (before people go of the rails saying you were saying it was nearly done) very true!! But (hyperV6) years back contacted me and said if your going to write a book on the fiero t-top don't just write it about the CJB factory ordered ship-thru cars, (factory warranty)also write about NON-CJB Dealer ordered (dealer warranty) and aftermarket Authorized installed dealers (warrenty) (200 of those at that time incase anyone was asking). So to Authenticate, I started down that path to make this book about the "COMPLETE"" birth and rise and death of the FIERO T-TOP program. And as many know, a great "reference book" to quote from, is not a book that uses words like: there estimated to be, I heard, someone I know worked at, I saw, I was told and the list goes on type of book. That is not a quality, factual book, my friends, that is a cash grab book. So what does this mean? Yes this book will take longer, but this book will be with factual documents and photos to show you the facts. Let me answer your question above factually. This is C&C t-top kit for the fiero "No" pro-to-type (See photo finger point to it) In 1984 they made 39 Units (kits) they were NOT " all" installed by C&C at their Brighton Michigan plant they were also ordered and installed at one of their 200 authorized dealers, these are the Rarest t -top fieros and most sought after. There are differences in this kit, I'm not going to go through all the differences here but you can see some visually T As for the Pewter color car above add their own aftermarket FLAT FOAM SEAL (across the back) and round tube piping foam around the front for leaks (see his photos) Reason this (we will call it version one kit was cancelled) leaked bad, didn't seal good glass was easy to crack cause of body flex at the rear in the center and by the doors.
[This message has been edited by FIERO JOHN-WI (edited 01-15-2022).]
It still could be glass from something else. They just cut the roof to size.
Some people are obsessed about the 88 models but if you really know the truth there is little difference between the early installs vs the 88 models if done by C&C or their dealer.
Thanks for the insight. From the pictures I'm looking at, the rear edge is perfectly aligned with the rear quarter panel top. It'd be a one in a million if there were another car with the exact size to fit the exact width, length and curvature of that rear panel. Look at your car the rear quarter panel isn't straight across, the edges curve away to the rear and down as it approaches where the drop rails go. Not to mention the curve from the middle to the outside.
Any idea why the CJB tops used different seals than the non-CJB, including the ones converted post-1988?
Personally I don't care whether its CJB or not. One of my 88 GT's has tops that were installed in 89 by a C&C installer. It was done very well. I've had the headliner out and everything looks well done. The only thing that wasn't done right is the headliner by the lights wasn't cut enough. When I redid the headliner I corrected that very easily.
[This message has been edited by reinhart (edited 01-17-2022).]
Thanks for the insight. From the pictures I'm looking at, the rear edge is perfectly aligned with the rear quarter panel top. It'd be a one in a million if there were another car with the exact size to fit the exact width, length and curvature of that rear panel. Look at your car the rear quarter panel isn't straight across, the edges curve away to the rear and down as it approaches where the drop rails go. Not to mention the curve from the middle to the outside.
Any idea why the CJB tops used different seals than the non-CJB, including the ones converted post-1988?
Personally I don't care whether its CJB or not. One of my 88 GT's has tops that were installed in 89 by a C&C installer. It was done very well. I've had the headliner out and everything looks well done. The only thing that wasn't done right is the headliner by the lights wasn't cut enough. When I redid the headliner I corrected that very easily.
Not sure on the glass but anything is possible.
Never heard for sure on the CJB trips but it is a better design as the on on the head liner can come lose. Also it was one less step to install.
The dome light area is close and many were cut too much and break.
I have wanted to take the Fiero Store backing to redo mine some day. The original backings are so brittle anymore.
As for the CJB or not that is up to the owner. I just hate how it miss leads so many into thinking the tops are more rare than they already are.
The dome light area is close and many were cut too much and break.
I have wanted to take the Fiero Store backing to redo mine some day. The original backings are so brittle anymore.
When I redid my headliner, the board was literally in 5 pieces. I basically reinforced it with so much fiberglass resin that it is now a fiberglass headliner board.
Does the original larger T-tops explain the oversized T-top storage bags? Do the larger T-tops actually fill the bags that same with the smaller T-top cars?
When I redid my headliner, the board was literally in 5 pieces. I basically reinforced it with so much fiberglass resin that it is now a fiberglass headliner board.
Does the original larger T-tops explain the oversized T-top storage bags? Do the larger T-tops actually fill the bags that same with the smaller T-top cars?
No the bags were used with a number of tops they supplied from what I have seen. They may have had a couple sizes but none were specific that I know of.
I switched to Trans Am bags as they are padded better.
My head liner was in two parts the front and back broken at the light.
It appears they tried to use the parts across as many tops as possible to save money. They just made specific for what they had to do. This was a common procedure.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 01-22-2022).]
