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Found a hilarious anti-Fiero comment posted recently on YouTube by Patrick
Started on: 11-30-2021 11:59 PM
Replies: 30 (720 views)
Last post by: Patrick on 01-05-2022 03:58 AM
Patrick
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Report this Post11-30-2021 11:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was reading the comments below WORST CARS IN U.S. HISTORY! on YouTube, and the following post made me laugh. I responded, which has led to the following exchange (so far)...

 
quote
Originally posted by Robert Monger:

The Pontiac "Fiero" belongs on this list. I had an 84 that caught fire 3 times before it had 3,000 miles on it. A rear engine car with the radiator in the front (trunk) meant you could roast a turkey along with whatever luggage you happened to be carrying and could even get hot enough to pop the spare tire. There was no airflow into the rear engine compartment so heat would build up and melt the wiring harness. The fuel tank was inside the console between the seat so the last fire mine had made me feel lucky I got out before the whole thing turned itself into a puddle.


 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

LOL... never heard some of this nonsense before. Spare tires popping and wiring harnesses melting from the heat. Ha ha, funny stuff!


 
quote
Originally posted by Robert Monger:

The last time I saw that car was just after the positive battery cable's insulation got soft enough to split and short to the metal clip holding it to the chassis-thus causing a general conflagration in the engine compartment that took out the entire wiring harness.


 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

So, it was actually a fire started by a shorted battery cable then that melted your wiring harness? Was it this same fire that popped your spare tire? Sorry, but having owned several Fieros over the last 25 years, I've heard about every bogus claim made against them. For anyone who wishes to learn some FACTS about the Pontiac Fiero, check out Pennock's Fiero Forum. Pennock's has been THE Fiero resource to turn to for the last 22 years. (Can't supply a link as YouTube will delete the entire post.)


 
quote
Originally posted by Zach Renner:

WOW! I'm pretty sure you (Robert Monger) did not own a Fiero and are just vaguely aware of the mechanics/physics of automobiles. Let me explain: The burst pressure of a typical tire is around 200psi and it takes an increase of about 50degF to increase the pressure by 5degF…. Do the math; you be closer to melting the tire first. At which point all the weaker rubber coolant hoses fail first among a host of other things. And since in a Fiero the spare tire is mounted in a sealed compartment apart from the radiator. This has NEVER happened. Having the radiator mounted in the front actually provides additional cooling capacity and prevents heat soaking (from engine heat) in low speed and idle conditions.

You also appear to be unaware of the large vents above the Fiero engine bay that allow for natural convection cooling while still which then becomes forced at speed by the vacuum created by the notched rear area.

The center tunnel area was one of the strongest parts of the car and the safest place for the fuel tank. This being one of the many reasons it received such high crash test ratings, only to be beaten by one model of Volvo with air bags.

The battery cable fire (in your other comment), while plausible, is also likely fabbed given the factory cable had a fusible link and cables don’t just get soft and split unless the owner let it get severely corroded with battery acid.

With a little Fiero knowledge you could have easily came up with a better story and said you had one of the early ‘84s with the incorrect dip stick that led the ol’ Iron Duke to starve itself of oil, split and catch fire…



 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Zach Renner, you nailed it. Good post. It's rather pathetic how people who've never owned a Fiero love to post utter BS about them.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 12-06-2021).]

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Report this Post12-01-2021 01:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of BS-crap out there about our Fieros; "They all catch fire!!!!", 'Fieros have the worst quality", "Fieros have the worst safety record", etc

A) The Fiero has a better fire safety record than the average for all cars. Only 260 caught fire from the factory defects- all 1984s.

B) Only ONE Volvo had a better safety rating in the 80s than the Fiero.

C) The Fiero was the first US-made car to use the Deming TQM system (The quality system an AMERICAN taught the Japanese)

D) The Fiero performed as good as a Normal-asp RX-7 and BETTER than the NA 300ZX.

Car & Drivel was the main source of this BS- Their shtick was to "Hate anything American" David E. Davis, head editor, was berated by the publisher for saying good things about the Lincoln MK VII when it came out- so he quit CD and started Automobile magazine.

I show people the 1987 R & T Sports and GT special edition magazine Fiero GT test by Peter Egan and they always state "I never read this- it makes the Fiero sound like a good car!" Link; https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/099448.html

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 12-01-2021).]

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Report this Post12-02-2021 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for da.slyboyClick Here to Email da.slyboySend a Private Message to da.slyboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When people make these wild claims, I often assume they have never owned a Fiero and are just trolling based on poor google searches to attract views.
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Report this Post12-04-2021 03:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopClick Here to Email jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Story tellers exist everywhere. They often pick niche things like the fiero because it already has a stigma and they are much less likely to be fact checked. If you ever want to identify these people (there are likely some here that will try to respond and argue) one of the best bait topics that they can't resist is paintball. They all froze paintballs or know someone who did despite that not being the case. I've definitely known a few story tellers that grew out of it, but some never will.

[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 12-04-2021).]

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Report this Post12-05-2021 06:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for InTheLeadSend a Private Message to InTheLeadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've run into many of these types, I choose to ignore them usually. The Fiero was catapulted into 'easy territory' for haters when Ralph Nader used the Fiero for his political gain.. unfortunately. I've been putting up with these pissant plebeians ever since. There's always some loud mouth, no matter where you go, that knows it all and declares the Fiero a fire hazard, a death trap, a Chevette with plastic body panels and on and on..

But even worse I find is within the community, either current owners of Fieros and or people who'd previously owned one, that constantly troll and belittle, devalue and basically insult any and everything in what's left of the community. At the end of the day I just *usually* ignore it.
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Report this Post12-05-2021 04:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by InTheLead:

The Fiero was catapulted into 'easy territory' for haters when Ralph Nader used the Fiero for his political gain...


I was unaware that Ralph Nader had made an issue of the Fiero.

Ralph Nader's book, Unsafe at Any Speed, was published in 1965, and targeted the Chevrolet Corvair.



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Report this Post12-05-2021 05:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Valkrie9Send a Private Message to Valkrie9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
AutoSafetyReport2021.pdf
University of Regina Student's Union
Iron Duke, low oil level causing a spun conrod,
holing the pan, spilling hot oil onto a hot exhaust pipe, lighting up everything combustible, you know, Fiero.
'

The Targa Corvair Midengine GM didn't build in '64.
'
1982 Pontiac Fiero NHTSA Frontal Crash Test
Twenty years later, how the Fiero passed the crash and rollover testing, the frame, the video clearly showing why a hans restraint is recommended.

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Report this Post12-05-2021 07:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ralphy "Naidir" wrote his book- basically a hate book about GM and American auto industry. He centered most of his hate on the Corvair, which was dangerous because of the rear-engine design and swing-axle rear suspension. Never complained about the VW bug (Same lay-out/suspension) or the 911 (Rear engine)....

In 1973 the NHTSA tested the 1st-gen Corvair against the '73 cars- The Corvair was better handling and SAFER than all of the new cars!

And good ole Ralphy- He never had a license, never drove a car! Can you spell.....I*M*B*E*C*I*L*E?
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Report this Post12-05-2021 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SkybaxSend a Private Message to SkybaxEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hmmm, odd entrance.
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Report this Post12-06-2021 12:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Another fella chipped in with some Fiero facts, so I added his comments to the exchange in my opening post.
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Report this Post12-06-2021 01:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Valkrie9:


Forget the Mid-Engine Corvette, Bring Back the Pontiac Fiero....Yeah !
The Ten best Pontiac sports cars of all time
Marisa Tomei, Expert


You're out of touch i'm out of time.

[This message has been edited by Australian (edited 12-06-2021).]

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Report this Post12-06-2021 11:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

I was unaware that Ralph Nader had made an issue of the Fiero.

Ralph Nader's book, Unsafe at Any Speed, was published in 1965, and targeted the Chevrolet Corvair.


"The plastic body, mid-engine Fiero was introduced as a 1984 model in September, 1983, and was an immediate sales success. But its demise at the end of the 1988 model year came nearly as quickly, after consumer advocate Ralph Nader alleged that engine problems led to fires."
https://www.latimes.com/arc...23-mn-623-story.html

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Report this Post12-06-2021 02:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Habanera HalClick Here to Email Habanera HalSend a Private Message to Habanera HalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Whenever some moron at a car show told me that all Fieros caught fire, I would just tell them that only happened to the green ones. They would usually then say, "Oh, I didn't know that. I guess that's why I've never seen one." and walk away
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Report this Post12-06-2021 03:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Habanera Hal:

Whenever some moron at a car show told me that all Fieros caught fire, I would just tell them that only happened to the green ones. They would usually then say, "Oh, I didn't know that. I guess that's why I've never seen one." and walk away


Yes we must keep this going!
When they ask why mine hasn't when it is green, I say that it is because mine is a repaint, it was only the factory green ones
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Report this Post12-06-2021 04:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

"The plastic body, mid-engine Fiero was introduced as a 1984 model in September, 1983, and was an immediate sales success. But its demise at the end of the 1988 model year came nearly as quickly, after consumer advocate Ralph Nader alleged that engine problems led to fires."


As mentioned earlier, I had no idea (and/or I knew but forget ) that Ralph Nader had criticized the Fiero. I, and perhaps other older car enthusiasts (dating back to the 60's), generally associate Ralph Nader with the demise of the Corvair more so than any other car.

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Report this Post12-06-2021 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Quad GTClick Here to Email Quad GTSend a Private Message to Quad GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Id hate to read on what he says about the large V8 in back of the Vette lol
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Report this Post12-06-2021 10:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Valkrie9Send a Private Message to Valkrie9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

-

Lamborghini Silhouette P300
-
Car Guys vs. Bean Counters:
The Battle for the Soul of America Business
by Bob Lutz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8HjOjjhQxM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SR614-2HyM
Larry Shinoda,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OAqCsq5hmY
Pontiac Fiero Marketing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxdFWFDT3qs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQFQvGeOuhM
Italian mid engine of the 70's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5CH8WYVO6o
A+B=C
Fiero chassis + more better power = Pursuit of Happiness.
Yep !
Mmmmn hmmmn !

They say that Fieros are bad cars, they must be wrong, obviously.

-

Measure to compare, ~ 2700lbs each.
Not bad after all, grossly underpowered as a sports car, 250hp a reasonable upgrade for grand touring.

[This message has been edited by Valkrie9 (edited 12-07-2021).]

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Report this Post12-07-2021 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Valkrie9Send a Private Message to Valkrie9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is fun.

Dyno of 3.9 LZ9 Turbo Fiero Low Boost...Then it blew up real good, dang !
-
Australian : ' You're out of touch, I'm out of time. '
Strange,
how memory hooks are able to retrieve snippets of tunes unheard for decades, in milliseconds.
Had no idea the two hipster Fiero fellows were in fact, successful singing performers, pop stars even.
The lyrics you posted triggered the song's melody, remembered vaguely, from some coffee shop's muzak, thirty years ago, forty even.
Here it is again, for your listening pleasure, ' Okay, play it again Sam. '
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCkJ5lGPqFs
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Report this Post12-07-2021 06:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mike in SydneySend a Private Message to Mike in SydneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Valkrie9:

...Had no idea the two hipster Fiero fellows were in fact, successful singing performers, pop stars even.


Really? Now I feel really old...
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Report this Post12-07-2021 07:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That Hall & Oates Fiero poster is one of the most cringe-worthy things I have ever seen; I know I am old-fashioned but a guy sprawled across the hood of a car just does NOT look right....

I also remember the 1985 Fiero GT commercial with a guy trying to thumb a ride- he turns down two beautiful women in 2 separate Fiero 4 cylinders, then jumps up and tries to get a ride with a woman in a GT (V6) but she drives on by. The guy got what he deserved- but some who saw this commercial then decided that the Fiero was a "Chick-car"...

Once again, the Fiero performed as good as the normal-aspirated RX-7 and 300 ZX....But almost everyone thinks it is gutless
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Report this Post12-07-2021 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Valkrie9Send a Private Message to Valkrie9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post12-23-2021 01:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for weaselbeakClick Here to Email weaselbeakSend a Private Message to weaselbeakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

That Hall & Oates Fiero poster is one of the most cringe-worthy things I have ever seen; I know I am old-fashioned but a guy sprawled across the hood of a car just does NOT look right....

I also remember the 1985 Fiero GT commercial with a guy trying to thumb a ride- he turns down two beautiful women in 2 separate Fiero 4 cylinders, then jumps up and tries to get a ride with a woman in a GT (V6) but she drives on by. The guy got what he deserved- but some who saw this commercial then decided that the Fiero was a "Chick-car"...

Once again, the Fiero performed as good as the normal-aspirated RX-7 and 300 ZX....But almost everyone thinks it is gutless



I owned both at the same time. The 86 300ZX was a nice car, loved the headlight setup. It was a never ending POS, always something wrong with it. It sat in my driveway right next to my 86 GT, which was a good car by any measure. Both were red. I have 5 adult children, and often they would borrow the Fiero. None ever borrowed the Nissan. I usually had to complain after a couple of days to get it brought back. I still have the Fiero, however it's now a 3800 swap.

[This message has been edited by weaselbeak (edited 12-23-2021).]

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Report this Post12-23-2021 11:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by weaselbeak:
I owned both at the same time. The 86 300ZX was a nice car, loved the headlight setup. It was a never ending POS, always something wrong with it. It sat in my driveway right next to my 86 GT, which was a good car by any measure. Both were red. I have 5 adult children, and often they would borrow the Fiero. None ever borrowed the Nissan. I usually had to complain after a couple of days to get it brought back. I still have the Fiero, however it's now a 3800 swap.



Alot of people forget the cluster of issues alot of foreign cars had, low miles or not. Some of them look good sitting in the driveway, when they work they are fun, (when they work). Costs to repair being higher, etc.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 12-23-2021).]

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Report this Post12-24-2021 01:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for seqClick Here to Email seqSend a Private Message to seqEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Weird Anti-Nader comments are just as common as weird Anti-Fiero comments. It's been a few decades since I've looked at his book, so I'm just refreshing my memory from Wikipedia. But his book was't bad, even if the Corvair wasn't quite as unsafe in practice as he thought it would be.

 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Ralphy "Naidir" wrote his book- basically a hate book about GM and American auto industry. He centered most of his hate on the Corvair, which was dangerous because of the rear-engine design and swing-axle rear suspension. Never complained about the VW bug (Same lay-out/suspension) or the 911 (Rear engine)....


The Corvair is just Chapter 1 of his book. He levelled legit criticisms at it (recommended tire pressures were weird, and outside of norms at the time), and cited somebody working on the car as recommending a stabilizer bar which was overruled by GM for cost reasons.

The other chapters of his book also dealt with legitimate concerns -- distracting/shiny dashes being dangerous, non-standard gear orders (which we don't have now). He tackled crash safety, pollution, pedestrian safety -- all things that are standard in car design now, but were not when he wrote his book.

 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:In 1973 the NHTSA tested the 1st-gen Corvair against the '73 cars- The Corvair was better handling and SAFER than all of the new cars!


The overall conclusions of the NHTSA report range from "comparable" to "at least as good", not "Safer".

The NHTSA itself was founded as a result of his criticisms at the industry's safety record. It -- and the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards it enforces -- didn't exist when his book was published.

 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:And good ole Ralphy- He never had a license, never drove a car! Can you spell.....I*M*B*E*C*I*L*E?


Not sure how his driving record is relevant. I drive every day, and it doesn't give me any particular insight into safe suspension design. I'm sure airbag designers are not required to crash with their designs (And I don't need to be in an accident with a Takata airbag to know they're unsafe).

His book helped kick off a movement to change an entire industry for the better. He's responsible for a considerable number of saved lives. But sure, he sucks because "GM cancelled a car I like".

I wish there was somebody like Nader today, publicly going after every car company re-inventing the shifter currently with different knob, dial, and button styles, which can either be confusing (somehow requiring three hours to explain that it isn't), but also sometimes unsafe (Like the ones that FCA had to recall after a number of roll-aways -- such as the one that killed Anton Yelchin).

Time and again, the auto industry has proven that it will be willing to sacrifice safety and quality to save money (whether that's faulty ignition switches from GM, faulty gear shifters from FCA, or faulty transmissions from Ford). People holding them account and forcing improvement shouldn't be unfairly criticized -- especially before any federal standards or enforcement bodies existed.

------------------
--
Seq

1987 Fiero GT : Information | Gallery

[This message has been edited by seq (edited 12-24-2021).]

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Report this Post12-25-2021 12:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Valkrie9Send a Private Message to Valkrie9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

See ?
Logical arguments persuading people to think rationally.


Used to be carnage on the highways, true.
Things are getting better, safer to survive the random drunks and idiots.
Motor company boards don't make decisions based on profit loss, but rather, are forced to comply.
Used to be, the exhaust went out the pipes with all the unburned leaded fuel.
So, yeah, Ralph Nader wasn't the boogie man commie nut case the media made him out to be, pure media bs.
To this day they still lie to you, all bs all day long, spoon fed to you, some stank pablum.
Take a trip down memory lane, get a whiff of the fumes in the '60s, no seatbelts.
Driving Los Angeles '60s
Merry Christmas !
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Report this Post12-25-2021 04:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I hear the comments every now and then, but never rude or insisting
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Report this Post12-25-2021 09:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Valkrie9:

Take a trip down memory lane, get a whiff of the fumes in the '60s, no seatbelts.

Driving Los Angeles '60s


Too bad the uploader of that video didn't retain the correct aspect ratio, but I downloaded it to watch in 4:3 as opposed to the distorted 16:9.

I counted four Corvairs... and two VW Beetles.
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Report this Post12-25-2021 10:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Seq, Ralph was a complete idiot; Yes, his BS did lead to improved safety...But he unfairly singled out the Corvair and GM. The VW Bug was far more dangerous, and even the Porsches were unsafe unless you were an experienced driver who had read up on 911's handling faults- and then were smart enough to accept them as fact.

Everything Ralph did was (Basically) to attract attention to himself; Never was he truly interested in other people's welfare...Only pumping his own image up.

There were mistakes by GM- and all car manufacturers. The Corvair could have led us down the path to smaller, more efficient cars a decade earlier with some slight improvements to it.

Car & Drival's whole operating mantra was "Hate America"....mind you, the US car companies deserve a lot of blame for stupidity- driven by hubris; "We don't have to worry about quality or small cars- We are the biggest company in the world!" But when they started to turn around, then CD (And the other mags) should have been willing to recognize that- instead they continually heaped scorn on US products- leading to even more damage than these companies deserved.

Spouting more untruths does not correct the original lie- or mistake. Truth is what we need more of- everywhere.

Read the 1985 GT Fiero tests in R&T and MT...Then read the CD test and tell me they are talking about the same car; Lies and BS slanted to hurt the Fiero. Instead of flaming on the Fiero hard, tell me the cars real faults and how the car can be improved- but don't inflate a small problem into a towering BS-fire.

Once again, Ralph was a giant ego inhabiting a petty little "man".......
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Valkrie9
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Report this Post12-26-2021 02:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Valkrie9Send a Private Message to Valkrie9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Too bad the uploader of that video didn't retain the correct aspect ratio, but I downloaded it to watch in 4:3 as opposed to the distorted 16:9.

I counted four Corvairs... and two VW Beetles.


I selected that photo because I recognize all of them.
There in the right lane is Suzanne's '60 Olds 88 that she would park in the drive while she visited, in '60.
'61 Buick Invicta in front, the VW I bought in '73, center lane four back is the '59 Ford Wagon the folks traded in on the '63 Squire wagon front left lane.
A pair of '56 Dodges, '56 Ford Victoria, '63 Galaxie 500.
All of them spewing, completely normal traffic.
The brand new Corvair is the most interesting to me today, working on madifications, for custom looks and utility.
Making the ' Early Vair ' a sportscar Spyder for the '63 market, yeah, turbos.


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Patrick
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Report this Post01-05-2022 03:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

A lot of unique vehicles in this video, but of special interest (to us) is the first one.

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