Hello Fiero Community, MrMike here. I received a cease & desist order from General Motors concerning the inclusion of GM trademarked words, images, and emblems on my products. I agreed to cease & desist. But they said, quote: “To be clear, GM has no objection to your sale of non-infringing products”. THUS: I am inviting the Fiero Community to create a Fiero logo that is not General Motors trademarked. Thoughts? Thank you for your attention, MrMike.
I have some ability (Limited) to create and/or modify emblems, etc.....Here is something I modified for a guy to use on his custom GT tail light lens.....
And an Emblem somebody else created- but I modified to for my Fiero (3.4)
I can modify or possibly create something else- and the nose emblem, you would have to check with the originator (Who I can't identify- Don't reNember)
[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 11-03-2021).]
I was told the word "Fiero" is Italian for proud. (can anyone comment on that?) As in: they can trademark a Regal emblem, but not the word Regal, they own the word Corvette and trademark that. GM spoke of words, images, and emblems. They specifically objected to my use of the 'Fiero Emblem". If we use the word Fiero the font and design of the word must be obviously different from the original. - - I would like to see the community come up with (and agree upon) a design.
Well....Maybe this means GM is going to step up and bring back the Fiero.......If it means that much to them......
I don't really understand why they would object to this on a car they happily cancelled....from a division they happily shut down......From, what is it.....33 years ago?
And why would they object to replacement parts having the emblem that THEY put on the car to begin with? Are they that money-hungry?
I believe this subject is in gray zone because Mr Mike is selling his talent in re-creating those seats, not emblems.
Darn, I was looking forward to getting my seats done next year in real leather. Yes, in real leather. Guess I will have Mr Mike do the seats & get a local sewing company to do the emblems. Is GM gonna try & stop all sewing companies in America, huh?
GM cannot stop us Fiero enthusiasts from wanting to dress up our Fieros. Period.
Mike as an owner of your seat, mine with no emblems they look fine with out.
But I know some would like to keep something on the seats.
Have you investigated take it the original emblems and how far you would need to alter them to make the still legal to use?
Could you do a very similar emblem with the hose head bound to the other direction to make it look close but not the same.
I would keep away from other totally different emblems as I think most would go with out vs going with a emblem that just has no similarity.
Another solution could the buyer supply the emblem and you just charge to see it on?
As for GM I kind of get what they are doing. It is not so much you they are worried about but China. The company I work for is in a constant fight with Chinese companies stealing our logo and graphics from our race team. To legally deal with it we have to go after all people who infringe. Some products are not bad but others are poor quality and reflect bad on us. It is expensive and time consuming to protect a logo anymore. Often the fees paid just cover the legal bills.
I am not aware of your situation as it may be different but in my case we have had major issues.
Note as a parts retailer we face the issue of name and logo use on our web site too. We even had a photo of our car show and one guy wanted us to pay him for his car being on our web site in a crowd shot. Now we have to have releases signed to get in.
We get it on both sides.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 11-03-2021).]
Another solution could the buyer supply the emblem and you just charge to see it on?
To me, this would be the workaround or "loophole". Mike would remove any logo from his website and offer custom embroidery. If the customer gave him any Fiero or Pontiac logo, technically he isn't offering them for sale, he's offering his services. He would simply be providing a service to stich a logo on the seat cover based on a customer-provided logo.
I would do as fierosound did and send Mike your emblems from your old seats. I like cvxjet's base emblem that F.I.E.R.O originally created but GM will probably come back on him if any redesigned emblem is used that still includes the word "Fiero".
If one has the emblem recreated for personal use and not for sale, I don't believe there's any infringement by doing as Fiero Vice is considering.
To me, this would be the workaround or "loophole". Mike would remove any logo from his website and offer custom embroidery. If the customer gave him any Fiero or Pontiac logo, technically he isn't offering them for sale, he's offering his services. He would simply be providing a service to stich a logo on the seat cover based on a customer-provided logo.
Exactly. He just charges to apply what is given.
Most could cut out the emblems from junk yard seats or from their old covers.
I was told the word "Fiero" is Italian for proud. (can anyone comment on that?) As in: they can trademark a Regal emblem, but not the word Regal, they own the word Corvette and trademark that. GM spoke of words, images, and emblems. They specifically objected to my use of the 'Fiero Emblem". If we use the word Fiero the font and design of the word must be obviously different from the original. - - I would like to see the community come up with (and agree upon) a design.
You could offer but just not a big fan of this generic stuff I would rather go plain.
Well....Maybe this means GM is going to step up and bring back the Fiero.......If it means that much to them......
I don't really understand why they would object to this on a car they happily cancelled....from a division they happily shut down......From, what is it.....33 years ago?
Since GM is not really going to purchase any Mr. Mikes seats..Can you just remove the add logo option from your website and just email/call you personally to say you want to add the Fiero logo? GM probably just did an internet search and found the addition on your website. I don't think they can track down all orders that are designed/made as "custom" with the logo request. Otherwise flip the horse image and stretch the "Fiero words" by 1/8" to make it no longer the exact same logo.
Like Keith's taillight lenses, it always annoyed me that a company who hasn't provided any support for theses cars for 20 years plus should claim copyright infringement.
I would like to see the community come up with (and agree upon) a design.
As the creator and copyright holder of the above custom logo that I did for myself and a few choice members I at one point would have objected to anyone using it. At this point the unmitigated greed of GM and their petty penny pinching way to protect ANY and all profit from a discontinued nameplate and abandoned brand is mind numbing. IF you want to use my logo on your seat design it will cost you a fee of $10 USD paid to Cliff to support this forum. Please be aware it is NOT public domain, there is NO fair use application that apply's but I will let it be used for the good of the community.
Best regards,
Dr. Will Hammond
[This message has been edited by infinitewill (edited 11-04-2021).]
Dear Dr. Will Hammond, $10 has been paid to Cliff per your request. With my many thanks. MrMike
MrMike,
Let me add an addendum if I may. Any buyer that wishes to use my logo must pay the $10 fee as well. You do such excellent work and are a gem for the Fiero community, I think it is only fair we support Cliff as well. Chris Dobbins seats came out fantastic and then I was going to replace my seat covers (which you had done for me with the GT logo) and I never got around to it. Thank you for the donation to Cliff as well 👍🏼
Originally posted by da.slyboy: Since GM is not really going to purchase any Mr. Mikes seats..Can you just remove the add logo option from your website and just email/call you personally to say you want to add the Fiero logo? GM probably just did an internet search and found the addition on your website. I don't think they can track down all orders that are designed/made as "custom" with the logo request. Otherwise flip the horse image and stretch the "Fiero words" by 1/8" to make it no longer the exact same logo.
Like Keith's taillight lenses, it always annoyed me that a company who hasn't provided any support for theses cars for 20 years plus should claim copyright infringement.
You and others have No Clue... In Very Short Version:
1. Copyright for most things is now nearly 100 Year thanks to Bono Copyright Act AKA Micky Mouse Protection Act. 2. Copyright, Trademark and Patent Owners must Protect them or often can lose the Rights in the US and other countries. GM et al or Firms contracted to do this work not only search the web themselves but get "tips" by others including License holders to Legally make/sell GM things like TFS. 3. DMCA and C&D "letters" from GM and others have completely shut down many sites including some PFF members selling key chains and other trinkets. FieroNews got one from Haynes to take down Haynes Fiero book and he took down GM FSM and other doc's too because only time to get letter from GM. Is just Luck MrMike hasn't got one way before this. 4. Once you get a DMCA or C&D notice, GM Legal Dept has already put a big target on the company and if try to bypass by just removing parts of web site but still making GM logo available on phone etc then GM will Sue You and run you out of business. So if anyone calls, E-mails, etc and ask to have any GM Ford or other logos on them... The answer is We No Longer Offer This. More now you posted this in public.
Even time you pay TFS, your paying GM License Fees too. That Fee often Starts @ Tens to Hundreds of Thousands of $ Per Year. MrMike likely Could get a License but would have to hike the prices of everything to pay GM. If used Ford etc then have to pay each of those too. That why others shut down because only made Fiero logo key chains mugs etc and doesn't make enough to pay GM license fees too.
You want a real problem? Here's one... Many people write whatever, Copyright them, Get ripped off by Big Media and find cost to sue them is way high and most lawyers want paid a lot of $ to even to start. Because Big Media has an Army of Lawyers to crush or settle a suit often paying pennies and everyone signing NDA to keep your mouth shut. Also Big Media wants all "Abandon" Copyright items in LoC to move to Pubic Domain Before the time limit runs out to make easier to rip off stories and more authored by "poor people."
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Thanks for that theogre. It was V8 Archie who told me "when you get your cease and desist, just desist, it's futile to fight them". GM said none of their trademarked stuff, fine, I won't, done. MrMike.
Originally posted by MrMike: Thanks for that theogre. It was V8 Archie who told me "when you get your cease and desist, just desist, it's futile to fight them". GM said none of their trademarked stuff, fine, I won't, done. MrMike.
No prob and agree w/ Archie here.
Good thing that GM and more mostly send DMCA and C&D first and stop there but many others still Sue like RIAA did w/ music sharing people years back.
And while mostly is a Copyright issue this time because GM Abandon many old Trademarks for some uses but not other uses. Many old Trademarks are still valid for uses like on clothes, toys, and more but "dead" for cars. TM data is at uspto.gov
Interesting situation here. Does GM still own the Pontiac and Fiero copyrights after the bankruptcy? Also how long are they good for? When were they last renewed?
There was an interesting case in CA where Del Taco bought out a mexican fast food chain and then converted all those stores to Del Tacos and closed everything down for that chain. The other chain was then just ignored by Del Taco. About 20 years later an entrepreneur realized the name was no longer copyrighted due to length of time having passed without it being renewed and claimed the name and brought back the fast food chain using the original menu and items. It is now entirely owned by this individual with no royalties or $ due to Del Taco. All of this was legal and the fast food chain is now operating a handful of stores with Del Taco being unable to do anything about it.
I would be quite curious if GM actually has the ability to control people remaking worn out products to keep the discontinued cars running. There could be a legal argument made that GM has neglected the right to continue to support the vehicle by providing regular wear and tear items that wear over time and has shirked that responsibility and these 3rd party companies are just filling the gap GM has left. It a 3rd party were directly competing with GM making a similar product then GM could argue for copyright infringement and loss of sales, but if they have no interest in providing replacement items such as worn out seats, then I think their case is diminished.
Remember any legal civil case has to show a economic loss. What are GM's economic losses from Mr Mike using their logos in seats? Is the name being tarnished? If GM has discontinued the entire division of Pontiac, is there any real chance they'll remake a "Pontiac Fiero" ever? Is GM losing out on selling a competing product such as GM's own sales of Fiero seats? Honeslty, I don't think GM could prove any economic loss. Of course they could still sue and try to make life hard for a little guy but that doesn't mean they would win anything if they did go to court. Of course these are just my opinions but perhaps someone with a legal degree could comment on these thoughts.
I do remember about 30 years ago there were 3rd parties making exact replacement aero bumpers, spoliers, etc. for Fieros and selling them for like 1/3rd of the price GM charged for replacements. GM seemed powerless to stop them. If they can't stop a direct copy of a GM designed body part then perhaps they're just blowing empty threats about replacing worn out emblems on seats as well.
And while mostly is a Copyright issue this time because GM Abandon many old Trademarks for some uses but not other uses. Many old Trademarks are still valid for uses like on clothes, toys, and more but "dead" for cars. TM data is at uspto.gov
The music companies could argue that pirated music cost them sales. It was pretty easy to just argue that every downloaded song cost them whatever they would make in profit by selling the song to the customer. What's the argument for economic damages for remaking parts GM refuses and has no interest in making, hasn't made in over 30 years and never will make in the future. Personally I think they have no case.
[This message has been edited by reinhart (edited 11-05-2021).]
Since GM is not really going to purchase any Mr. Mikes seats.. Can you just remove the add logo option from your website and just email/call you personally to say you want to add the Fiero logo? GM probably just did an internet search and found the addition on your website. I don't think they can track down all orders that are designed/made as "custom" with the logo request. Otherwise flip the horse image and stretch the "Fiero words" by 1/8" to make it no longer the exact same logo.
Like Keith's taillight lenses, it always annoyed me that a company who hasn't provided any support for theses cars for 20 years plus should claim copyright infringement.
Trademarks almost always include any use of the word or logo in any combination with each other, and in some cases even separate from each other. Its also addresses the intent of the use, for example if you are making a logo that looks materially similar and its being use for the same purpose as the trademarked logo then your in trouble. That also means any variation of a materially similar logo. As for the words, you cant just stretch them out, you would have to used completely different font and size and you would not be able to combine it with any logo that remotely resembles the GM fiero logo. You would have to add a letter to Fiero, such as "Fierro" and use a different font and avoid using the logo shape and similar image in order to avoid any issues. All of the proposed options in this thread would still infringe on the trademark.
Interesting situation here. Does GM still own the Pontiac and Fiero copyrights after the bankruptcy? Also how long are they good for? When were they last renewed?
There was an interesting case in CA where Del Taco bought out a mexican fast food chain and then converted all those stores to Del Tacos and closed everything down for that chain. The other chain was then just ignored by Del Taco. About 20 years later an entrepreneur realized the name was no longer copyrighted due to length of time having passed without it being renewed and claimed the name and brought back the fast food chain using the original menu and items. It is now entirely owned by this individual with no royalties or $ due to Del Taco. All of this was legal and the fast food chain is now operating a handful of stores with Del Taco being unable to do anything about it.
I would be quite curious if GM actually has the ability to control people remaking worn out products to keep the discontinued cars running. There could be a legal argument made that GM has neglected the right to continue to support the vehicle by providing regular wear and tear items that wear over time and has shirked that responsibility and these 3rd party companies are just filling the gap GM has left. It a 3rd party were directly competing with GM making a similar product then GM could argue for copyright infringement and loss of sales, but if they have no interest in providing replacement items such as worn out seats, then I think their case is diminished.
Remember any legal civil case has to show a economic loss. What are GM's economic losses from Mr Mike using their logos in seats? Is the name being tarnished? If GM has discontinued the entire division of Pontiac, is there any real chance they'll remake a "Pontiac Fiero" ever? Is GM losing out on selling a competing product such as GM's own sales of Fiero seats? Honeslty, I don't think GM could prove any economic loss. Of course they could still sue and try to make life hard for a little guy but that doesn't mean they would win anything if they did go to court. Of course these are just my opinions but perhaps someone with a legal degree could comment on these thoughts.
I do remember about 30 years ago there were 3rd parties making exact replacement aero bumpers, spoliers, etc. for Fieros and selling them for like 1/3rd of the price GM charged for replacements. GM seemed powerless to stop them. If they can't stop a direct copy of a GM designed body part then perhaps they're just blowing empty threats about replacing worn out emblems on seats as well.
Damages amounts in trademark disputes can often be difficult to quantify. How does one attach a specific dollar value to the loss of a trademark’s distinctiveness or depreciation of goodwill associated with a trademark?
In response to this difficulty, courts have awarded “nominal” damages where the plaintiff is unable to provide evidence of specific losses suffered. If there has been infringement, courts must use best efforts to ascertain appropriate damages, regardless of the difficulty in doing so, and are permitted to apply ordinary business knowledge and common sense. Further, although more typically associated with punitive damages, the need for deterrence has also been considered in compensatory damages awards in trademark disputes.
In practical application, GM only need to prove how many seats Mr. Mike produced and sold with Fiero logos on them. That is easily achieved via way of discovery process in civil litigation. GM then only needs to demonstrate what it receives via way of royalty for similar use of the Fiero logo. after that its simply a 1+2=damages calculation.
Mr. Mike, I suggest you just stop with the logos and only use recycled patches as provided by customers. I know that sucks!
Originally posted by jjd2296: In practical application, GM only need to prove how many seats Mr. Mike produced and sold with Fiero logos on them. That is easily achieved via way of discovery process in civil litigation. GM then only needs to demonstrate what it receives via way of royalty for similar use of the Fiero logo. after that its simply a 1+2=damages calculation.
Like it or not, GM has an established process for other businesses to use use their trademarks on products. This really gives them the upper hand in all these types of cases.
Using a GM Trademark w/o going through this licensing process is going to be really difficult to defend since they have an established process to accomplish your desired goal (improving the quality/value of your product by the inclusion of a GM Trademark on it) . The reasons for not using this process: too expensive, too much of an hassle, GM doesn't deserve the $$, GM doesn't make a competing product, just don't want to, etc... are not strong positions to defend.
Even the process of attaching used seat emblems to new covers could be problematic. The product would still be leaving his business with a GM Trademarked logos on a non-licensed product - this is the fundamental issue. The best way to proceed would be to ship w/o any logo and allow the end user to attach their own logo. He could pre-stitch/punch the holes for the OEM logo to make it easier for the end user to attach it in the right spot.
This is not just GM but most well established companies.
It used to not be an issue but today so many people have used and abused these trademarked names and images that companies have had to enforce the use as companies were losing control of where they appeared and the quality of the items they were put on.
Often they would put the name in so it appeared to look like a product from that company.
Ford went as far as threatening to not let magazines use Ford and Mustang for a while till things got worked out.
Companies are not making major profits here as most of the legal expense is eating up the money charged.
GM still owns the Fiero and Pontiac names and images. GM has owned the Fiero name since the late 60’s.
All of this is a total pain but it also just shows just how bad theft and miss appropriation has gone. Just look at the music industry.
Much of the trouble is China. They steal everything.
GM keeps most of their names pre and post bankruptcy registered and controlled. Active and non active models and divisions.
If represented properly, the process of attaching the original emblems to new skins is permissible. It would need to be advertised as “seat skin repair service” .
[This message has been edited by jjd2296 (edited 11-05-2021).]
It is widely reported that it was drawn by PFF member F.I.E.R.O.
With that said, I'm not sure where he got it. It may have been discovered in an old filing cabinet at Pontiac, destined for a future release. Or not. But the design, and the creation of the design, was widely posted here. I'm quite sure that it has never been produced in an official capacity. I've never seen it attached to a car.
quote
Originally posted by MrMike:
Does anyone know where this design came from? I have customers wanting it. MrMike
I was told the word "Fiero" is Italian for proud. (can anyone comment on that?)
