My credit card company just ruled this dispute in my favor, so I'm finally posting what I went through with WCF.
I ordered WCF's A/C lines which, given the photo and comment box to describe application on their website, I thought would be drop in, completed lines that at most I would weld adapters onto. Well, below you can see what I received. It was literally a box of loose McMaster Carr parts with a new label slapped over the McMaster one.
Obviously, this is garbage, and misrepresenting your product with a photo that looks nothing like what you deliver is illegal. I requested a refund via email, and they pointed me to their refunds page which specifies a 50% restocking fee which I wasn't about to pay. Well, I went around on the phone with them. At one point, they insisted that the lines weren't assembled because I didn't tell them anything about what the application was. That set me off because there's a box on the order page to provide car details, which I filled in with a brief description. Whoever I talked to kept insisting that there was no such box on their website, and that I never told them anything about my application. At some point, the guy boasted that he had put me on speaker phone because I was cussing him out after he basically called me a liar about that the description box. See the screen grab from my order confirmation. They were implying I was a liar while lying themselves, and having a good group laugh. I must have Karen-ed enough that they said they'd give me a refund minus card fees which I'm actually fine paying (the guy claimed that's what was offered from the start, but their email clearly pointed me straight to their page with the 50% restocking fee).
Fun side note- they updated their website to include "assembly required" immediately after my call, but I have a screen grab from beforehand. They obviously felt their description was misleading if they had to update it.
I then attempted multiple times to get them to confirm the refund amount via email so I had a record, but they flat ignored me, so I returned the parts certified mail and opened a dispute with my credit card. WCF has still not issued any form of refund despite receiving the parts back over a month ago. I'm sure they're trying to get me for 50% of the cost.
I was amazed to find out that I am in no way an atypical case. I have even been roundly mocked for buying from them. People who are friends with the owner say they would never buy from him. I am hoping to warn others to stay the hell away from them. I would go so far as to put a sticky up about these guys so new people like me would know to stay away.
I've filed a complaint with the California AG, and they have contacted WCF, but probably won't do much over one case. If you've had issues with them, make sure to let the AG know.
I've never purchased anything from West Coast, but I've been part of this forum for years and while I've read of people having good success with them, I've also heard quite a few who don't. I have to wonder as a business if the complaints seen are just so few compared to the amount of satisfied customers that WCF just brushes them off and moves on. I would think if most had a negative outlook on this company they wouldn't have been around for so long, especially in the last 10-15 years of instant online complaining.
For such a nich market WCF provides for, you would think they would provide the best customer support they could. Then again, I've never heard of a company charging a 50% restock fee either.......
I once ordered some camera gear which unbeknownst to me was out of stock. After waiting several weeks, with no predicted date of availability, I cancelled my order. They charged me a re-stocking fee!
Retailers take note: It's a grudge I'll take with me to my grave.
It was an instant warning sign to me. Like a betting machine with odds favoring the house. It tells the buyer there have been a substantial number of issues with items the seller is sending.
Edit; it also says the seller has a chip on his shoulder and probably isn't interested in fostering a healthy relationship with buyers.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 12-04-2020).]
I've been told that the Fiero business is basically a side hustle for them now. They have a more mainstream shop that's the real bread winner. I tried to explain that one bad customer experience can cost them multiple other sales, but they were convinced I wouldn't cost them any. They really just don't care about any of us.
I've been through a lot of specific cars, trucks, and motorcycles, and niche vendors are usually fantastic. It blows me away that these guys are universally renowned for being awful, and apparently it goes back 20years. I honestly wish they would just stop selling anything because, as I show, it would have been easier and cheaper to just do it myself.
I've been told that the Fiero business is basically a side hustle for them now.
I got curious when I saw the address in the picture posted above, since I've been in Tehachapi many times. So I looked at the Google Street View and saw a Dave's Auto Repair in the building at the front of the lot (at a different address) with WCF in the building at the back of the lot. No other signs. Whatever their other business is, it isn't marked. Of course it could be something totally unrelated like a call center or something.
Originally posted by sourmash: It was an instant warning sign to me. Like a betting machine with odds favoring the house. It tells the buyer there have been a substantial number of issues with items the seller is sending.
Maybe they've had a lot of returns, and are taking it out on the customers?
Personally, I've done business with them twice. I ended up regretting both purchases. I don't own a Fiero anymore, so won't be doing business with them anymore, by default. But even if I still had a Fiero, I'd steer clear of them.
Originally posted by css9450: Has anyone ever visited them in person?
Yes and that seems to be the key. Show up and you can buy whatever you like. Order an item to be shipped and you're screwed. Madcurl who used to frequent this forum orders a lot of custom parts from them but I believe he visits them to pick up his parts.
I have been following your story on FB, as well. I'm glad you got some satisfaction. Keep checking your CC statements for a while. Make sure nothing "surprising" turns up. But yeah... imagine my surprise.
Regarding the "local vs ship-to" customers... Obviously they don't want to screw people over, who are within driving (or firing) distance.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-04-2020).]
I've dealt with WCF several times and have had no problems but we have read instances where customers have run into issues dealing with them. If parts are returned to WCF in new condition 10% should be plenty to pay but consider specialty swap parts sold by WCF are mostly built to individual order, so if you send them back WCF may not have a buyer for them. In the case of the OP he paid for A/C hoses and received parts only. In this case I take the customers side of the story and obviously the credit card company agreed.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Wish I could have had good things to say, I tried ordering their firewall insulation but parts never shipped. Alas sale was cancelled and got my refund.
Unfortunate.... I was thinking of ordering their F23 mounts as they look pretty good, but they don't take paypal... which is a bit scary if they disappear with my money. I sure wish there were more reliable vendors for these cars, but the limited demand and small profit doesn't attract a lot of investment unfortunately
Unfortunate.... I was thinking of ordering their F23 mounts as they look pretty good, but they don't take paypal... which is a bit scary if they disappear with my money. I sure wish there were more reliable vendors for these cars, but the limited demand and small profit doesn't attract a lot of investment unfortunately
Roger Thelin sells all kinds of custom brackets and mounts. You can contact him for more info. http://thelinsells.com
Originally posted by cam-a-lot: I sure wish there were more reliable vendors for these cars, but the limited demand and small profit doesn't attract a lot of investment unfortunately
There used to be more "big name" vendors involved in Fieros. But as popularity diminished, the vendors moved on. I'm sure that trend will continue. So Fiero owners will have to rely more and more on cottage industry.
I'm a fan of small business. But working with cottage industry vendors has its own set of challenges. It can make the process of restoring or upgrading a car pretty frustrating.
Originally posted by Blacktree: I'm a fan of small business. But working with cottage industry vendors has its own set of challenges. It can make the process of restoring or upgrading a car pretty frustrating.
When I go to mixed-brand car meets, I find that with the popular cars, people buy stuff from an online catalog (AEM cold air intake, Perrin whatever, Unitronic canned tune), bolt it on, and go.
No thinking involved -> boring.
With the Fiero it's more fun.
Curious onlooker: "What kit is that?" Fiero owner: "Oh, that's not really a kit, I made that."
Some observations, having first-hand experience with WCF.
My take is that it's basically one guy, Chris West. I don't think there's any other shop or any other people. I recall a Facebook page or something allegedly being run by his daughter, don't know the details nor if there's truth to it. (I don't believe anything I read on the Internet, especially Facebook.)
But he is prone to mis-representing his stuff; for instance, his "Z-34" brake kit is, in fact, the self-same Grand Am front setup you can do yourself or get from TFS for half as much (and nothing to do with Z34's.) Presumably he charges more as he has to laboriously machine each piece by hand himself and/or his pieces are made of pure unobtanium. (He stated he was doing the machine work himself as his previous machinist "had to be let go", ostensibly due to a lack of business, though I suspect it was more the guy left on his own due to not being paid.)
Chris also has a distinctly different sense of time than most folk. I'd get a UPS notification "This is being shipped", which meant Chris had filled out a label. Didn't mean the part(s) were even made yet, never mind put into a box, never mind said box making its way to UPS. That could take weeks past the time Chris swore to me that it was done.
And getting him to answer the phone when there's problems *after* the sale ... yeah. His voicemail and I had a thing going for some weeks.
To his credit, Fieros are a niche market and it's hard to sell stuff for them. There's not a lot left, many with very, very cheap owners. He's put some time into engineering the packages he does -- the electric power steering one, for instance -- and writing instructions which were pretty good, if only occasionally inaccurate. But at some point if you're not happy and your customers are unhappy, you gotta fish or cut bait. If it ain't workin' out, stop pissing everybody off, close up and sell the shop and go work for somebody else as a machinist or something.
Roger Thelin sells all kinds of custom brackets and mounts. You can contact him for more info. http://thelinsells.com
Roger doesn't sell them for the 3800 motor/F23 combo. Only Ecotec. He told me he is not interested in doing the 2000-2002 non ecotec F23/3800 combo. Unfortunate, since there is probably a lot more demand for that then the Ecotec F23 /Ecotec motor swap...
Here's a fun update. They responded to my AG complaint stating their website says "Pictures on Website May Not Depict Actual Product" (seriously, there's a banner on their homepage now) and that the description says "Assembly Required." Well, I have proof that the latter wasn't true at time of purchase, and I'm pretty sure the former wasn't either. I'm not sure what the AG will think of that little omission, but it's pretty brazen to leave out that tidbit in a form going to the AG's office.
Here's a fun update. They responded to my AG complaint stating their website says "Pictures on Website May Not Depict Actual Product" (seriously, there's a banner on their homepage now) and that the description says "Assembly Required." Well, I have proof that the latter wasn't true at time of purchase, and I'm pretty sure the former wasn't either. I'm not sure what the AG will think of that little omission, but it's pretty brazen to leave out that tidbit in a form going to the AG's office.
Since you won out on the credit card dispute, did you at least return the wrong merchandise to WCF? I believe that would be the right thing to do.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Since you won out on the credit card dispute, did you at least return the wrong merchandise to WCF? I believe that would be the right thing to do.
Absolutely it would. But I would insist that they pay for return shipping. (Send a prepaid return label or something. It's a well documented procedure, these days. The buyer shouldn't have to be out a freakin' dime.) I suspect they won't. They've got no use for it.
Since you won out on the credit card dispute, did you at least return the wrong merchandise to WCF? I believe that would be the right thing to do.
Unless WCF also pays for return shipping, I sure wouldn't bother.
Speaking for myself... the cost to return something (from Canada) is often equal to or more than what the wrong/faulty/misrepresented item is worth. I've been dicked around by unscrupulous eBay vendors, and the vast amount of time wasted on these people to get a refund usually negates any desire I have to do "the right thing" by returning the goods.
Just tried to place an order with WCF for F23 mounts and offered to pay by paypal. Apparently they don't take paypal. I suggested signing up for it, and I will even happily pay the paypal fee on the purchcase, but no luck. I guess the 7 minutes of work it takes to sign up for paypal is just too challenging of a task
I am not interested in paying by credit card based on too many reviews of parts not showing up or being wrong. Oh well...
I had issues with their swap headers, pin holes and cracking. That was many years ago, also had issues with swap mounts and poor welds. Headers took a long time to arrive. Poor communication, although they were friendly on the phone when I did speak to them finally.
Wouldn't bother with them again, I do my own fab work these days. Can always rely on yourself.
I'm in need of exhaust manifolds for my 85 GT 2.8. They seem to be the only one I can find that has them. Are there any other suggestions on where to pick up new manifolds? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Since you won out on the credit card dispute, did you at least return the wrong merchandise to WCF? I believe that would be the right thing to do.
I sent it back in October. Unless my credit card company took it without posting to my account, they've issued no refund to me even though they have the parts back.
I'm in need of exhaust manifolds for my 85 GT 2.8. They seem to be the only one I can find that has them. Are there any other suggestions on where to pick up new manifolds? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Bob
Here's one of them. I'm sure someone on here has the other lying around.
Another update. I just had a vitriolic person harassing me on Facebook over this. I seriously think he was on drugs because he made no sense. He kept saying I was lying about the description on the website which I have the screen grabs above, so I don't know how I could lie about what is in photos. He also said that I was claiming they double charged me which I never have done. I'll withhold his name, but he was apparently on this forum 15 years ago or so. He has to be friends with Mr West because he was saying some of the same things that I heard on my phone call with them. Also, he is/was head of a local Fiero chapter. He was also threatening to take this to my credit card company which I'm assuming was just bluster, but I'm going to notify my credit card as well since he shouldn't know who I'm using unless he somehow got information he shouldn't have. I've already notified my credit card, so it would probably end badly for him if he did contact them.
At the end of the day, he got the ban hammer there, so I can only assume that happened here at some point too.
Edit: He's done events at WCF, so he apparently is friends with Mr West.
[This message has been edited by Stricken (edited 12-15-2020).]
I don't honestly know why anyone would consider doing business with them. I emailed them once many years ago to ask about an item they were selling, I asked relevant questions: any special tools needed for install, any rubbing that might damage paint, etc etc.
The reply was "they work".
I asked again, again they said, "they work"
Never bought a thing from them since.
Conversely, the Fiero Store and Rodney Dickman have made over $10K each off me.
I've ordered a couple of times from them, and shipping delays were an issue, but other than that I had good luck.
FYI I am far more confident paying by credit card than by paypal. The paypal dispute resolution is actually quite terrible. Unless its changed since I used it (many years ago), it takes awhile to resolve and both sides are made aware.
If they find in your favor they can refund you the money IF the vendor has the funds in their account, otherwise you get bupkiss. So as long as the vendor keeps their paypal account empty, you may never get anything back.
Credit card on the other hand will just refund you your money if they find in your favor. The few times I spoke to them on the phone (I believe it was Chris) he mentioned he mostly does work for busses (city busses maybe) and the Fiero store is just a small side business. That would make sense to me since how much revenue and profit can there really be in Fiero parts these days anyway?
Credit Cards disputes aren't fair. Bought several pieces of a product advertised as a rare item inside with original packaging stated as having the rare item inside. They arrived but the items inside weren't the rare one. It was the 2nd series the factory made which weren't rare and aren't marked the same. Price was lowish for rare. High for not rare. Credit dispute went against me. Seller finally took them back anyway. Credit card company didn't care that the seller's claims weren't accurate. It wasn't the rare ones he was selling. It was a wrapper saying the rare one was inside.
You're lucky you got a decision in your favor. Also, you should return stuff with signature confirmation to make sure of who received it because shady sellers lie too.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 12-16-2020).]
Just went to their website to show some of their products to my wife, & the first slide on their home page reads this disclaimer "photos on website may not depict actual product". Not sure if this is new. It only displays for a few seconds, & none of the other slider images have this disclaimer.
Heck, that's the same slipperiness that Chinese sellers on ebay do. They title as the item you want. The item will have 5 pics of the item you think you're buying, but then you notice the 6th pic is different and it's the actual item you're getting.
Heck, that's the same slipperiness that Chinese sellers on ebay do. They title as the item you want. The item will have 5 pics of the item you think you're buying, but then you notice the 6th pic is different and it's the actual item you're getting.
The worst thing about Ebay is when you look for, lets just say, "carbon fiber splitter" for a Fiero. Then you get 150,000 items that DON'T fit yet the seller puts the keyword "Fits Fiero" at the end of their description. People fall for that every single time then get an item that has to be hacked up and destroyed just to actually fit the Fiero.
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 12-25-2020).]
Seems fair to me that you post the McMasterCar parts list.. I dealt with them a long time ago, 3800 mounts. Took forever and several calls. Nice parts, but not worth the trouble.\
I noticed the B5 Audi niche has issues with limited market offering poor quality parts and very slow deliveries. Turbos aren't a real problem but ICs and everything else can be. Those buyers are pickier/more demanding too. But they spend more money per item.
[img]https://images.fiero.nl/userimages/Stricken/Screenshot_20201023-162931 .png[/img]
