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New Chevy Fiero? Probably not... by RCR
Started on: 02-01-2017 07:54 AM
Replies: 45 (1142 views)
Last post by: hyperv6 on 02-06-2017 12:13 PM
RCR
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Report this Post02-01-2017 07:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting logic, but not going to happen.

http://www.roadandtrack.com...the-chevrolet-fiero/

Bob

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Report this Post02-01-2017 08:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What's with people thinking you need to rotate the powertrain 180° ...
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Report this Post02-01-2017 10:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We all know it's not wise to come up with a car that may take some sales from the Corvette.

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 02-01-2017).]

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Report this Post02-01-2017 10:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Stubby79Send a Private Message to Stubby79Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

We all know it's not wise to come up with a car that may take some sales from the Corvette.



Well, it helps that the corvette has improved steadily in the past 20 years. There's room for a middling sports car that doesn't have half the engineering they've put in to the corvette...using off-the-shelf parts.

They shouldn't have killed off the whole Pontiac brand when they were only a few years in to making some interesting, obtainable vehicles.
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Report this Post02-01-2017 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
and in a few years we can start taking the engine/trans out and put them in our cars. Maybe even use some of the suspension parts, brakes and interior parts. I say "do it GM, make it easy for me to put this stuff into my Fiero".

Rob
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Report this Post02-01-2017 12:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lateFormulaSend a Private Message to lateFormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would buy one... If it looked good.
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Report this Post02-01-2017 12:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for edfieroClick Here to Email edfieroSend a Private Message to edfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lateFormula:

I would buy one... If it looked good.


AND if they kept the cost down. If the price starts approaching 40k, then no thanks, I'll just keep saving and base model Vette.
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Report this Post02-01-2017 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trivetClick Here to Email trivetSend a Private Message to trivetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Something comparable to the Lotus Elise would be very nice

Priced right, I would certainly be in the market
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hyperv6
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Report this Post02-01-2017 07:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is what has been reported.
One plan had put the car as being able to be a Front Engine and Mid engine model on the same platform. They did look at this but I feel they knew better than to compromise.
Another plan was to make the mid engine as a high end model first and as volume increased to replace the Stingray over time with the cheaper model. This is reportedly why the Stingray name was brought back. This is plausible and may still be in play.
Finally reports to Motor Authority and other places have pegged the top end Mid Engine at $170K and that they can take the aluminum space framed car down to $80K as reported by a Vette team member by the time it comes to market. They said it could be done with a small premium over the present car. Please note this is not like the others in class where it will have a carbon tub or lift doors and other more expensive gimmicks.
The they way they are going to build this car is not going to be much more expensive than the present car. It will use much the same materials and while it will increase in price they will upgrade the car accordingly. Just because it is mid engine does not mean it has to be overly expensive. Tadge knows one of the hall marks of the car is to remain in the realm of affordability and he also knows he needs to maintain some volume. This is a car they want here 20 years from now. Ford on the other hand will only make 1000 in 4 years and it is out of here.
The other player here is the Camaro. right now it is already getting priced in the Corvette range and is as fast or faster than some Corvette models. The Camaro volume is dropping and they will need to survive on higher prices or it will go away again if volumes drop.
To make a cheaper sports car would only hurt the Camaro and it would be at a lower volume that would make it a short lived car much like the Solstice and so many other small lower priced sports cars. Just look around only the Corvette and Miata are the only ones with long lives. The RX7, Datsun Z, Rx8 , MR2 dies twice, even the small sporty coupes from Toyota are under performing.
My gut and from what I have seen is you will see a range of mid engine Vettes from $80K to $170K. The car in North America will remain a Chevy. Globally it will be marketed as a Corvette. Holden and Europe will both get it as will China and the Middle East.
Lets also not get ourselves thinking the Vette is not already expensive. Yes you can get an entry model at $60K but like the old C3 1982 Models available with steel rally wheel they are pretty seldom seen. Today most Stingrays are nearing $80K and the GS models and special editions are $90K to $118K with the coming ZR1 going to top $130K.
Lets face it the Vette stopped being a car for the factory worker a while back. Most of today’s buyers still could afford more. With the high volumes it still allows the rest of us to buy good clean low mileage models later on for under $20K in many cases. I have seen some price C6 models for so little.
This car will be a car to compare to the R8, 458 and lower end Mclaren in price all lower end exotics. GM will do their magic and make this car as good or better for much less. Now you will not get the top line 800 HP model for $80K but there will be a model with 475 HP or about and no carbon body panels that will still be near the original C7 price.

Sorry but to do a small sports car much cheaper would be very diffiicult unless Opel, Holden, Vauxhall and one of the American brands came in. It would need to be a global car as volumes would need to be leveraged out everywhere to keep it alive. Just study the sales of most cheaper sports cars and most live 5-10 years. I think GM could do it but it would need to be a Buick as it would need to be shared with other brands GM has globally. Also the Buick brand would better suit it price wise and not step on the Camaro.

The Cadillac also is not coming soon. The manager JDN has made it clear that he liked the idea but could not entertain such a model till 2025. They right now have all their manpower and money focused on revamping all their models over the next 5-6 years.

There has been a lot of hints all around on this car. The Vette team is known for leaving Easter Eggs around. You just have to use some good judgment and really consider the factors when looking for them. The magazines are usually the worst place to look as they often are wrong.

I loved the first easter egg where a mule was spotted years ago in California. There are still a few photos floating around. It had MFG plates and no one talked. Later the White Malibu showed up in the NYC area. It had an engine in the back seat with C7 wheels and flag on the rear. It also had Ferrari tail lamps and a modified cooling system. I loved how may discounted this but who would spend the money to hack up a new Bu with a mid engine and Ferrari and Corvette parts all new? Tadge and the gang like to tease and that was in the face and so many missed it.

The present Corvette is already a transaxle car. As we all know here with the Fiero that making a car Mid Engine is not something that has to make it crazy expensive. The reason cars like the Ford GT are off the chart is they are all carbon and they only make 250 a year. Make the fame aluminum use a truck bases engine and you already have a good transxle moving the rest is not a big deal for price.

You are just going to have to trust the Vette team. The group we have no has never disappointed us and know the needs of the car as well as anyone for the market.

So stop listening to the sky is falling people and lets just let this car happen. I think we will be shocked at the results of what we get here in a good way.

Oh if you want a Pontiac buy a Fiero. Pontiac is dead and not coming back .

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 02-01-2017).]

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RWDPLZ
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Report this Post02-01-2017 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZClick Here to visit RWDPLZ's HomePageSend a Private Message to RWDPLZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You know what would be funny? If the new Corvette from the rear seats back was identical to the Fiero spaceframe. Fiero people have already done all the R&D to putting a Corvette engine in a mid-engine car...

Hopefully it will be easy to add red backlit lighting to the switches and gauges, and swap out the emblem for a Fiero one
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Report this Post02-01-2017 09:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for retromanClick Here to Email retromanSend a Private Message to retromanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by steve308:



YES!! MAKE PONTIAC GREAT AGAIN!!!!
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quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


You are just going to have to trust the Vette team. The group we have no has never disappointed us and know the needs of the car as well as anyone for the market.



Yeah They Have, They Helped Kill The Fiero.

A big problem is today's market, thus why the MR2 got killed a couple of times, the price tag was reaching 30K and at that time no one wanted to pay it, for that kind of car, then prices skyrocketed and it came back for a bit.

And they GM did an aluminum space frame Fiero, but every time they did prototypes it killed the Vette in specs,(another example is the GM prototype V8 Fiero in 87) and Vette owners/designers just could not have that. Corvette has always keep the other GM brands down from making top-o-line sports cars, as they "had to be the best GM sports car"

They would never make another Fiero, as just the name would make vette designers just piss them selves out out fear and do anything they could to stop it.

But I do have to say, GM compared to other car "exotic" makers, has better manufacturing, just see "How it's made, Dream Cars" A cool show actually. IMO, it shows how a major manufacturer excels compared to "hand made" Though Lambo does a really good job.
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Report this Post02-02-2017 07:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:


Yeah They Have, They Helped Kill The Fiero.

A big problem is today's market, thus why the MR2 got killed a couple of times, the price tag was reaching 30K and at that time no one wanted to pay it, for that kind of car, then prices skyrocketed and it came back for a bit.

And they GM did an aluminum space frame Fiero, but every time they did prototypes it killed the Vette in specs,(another example is the GM prototype V8 Fiero in 87) and Vette owners/designers just could not have that. Corvette has always keep the other GM brands down from making top-o-line sports cars, as they "had to be the best GM sports car"

They would never make another Fiero, as just the name would make vette designers just piss them selves out out fear and do anything they could to stop it.

But I do have to say, GM compared to other car "exotic" makers, has better manufacturing, just see "How it's made, Dream Cars" A cool show actually. IMO, it shows how a major manufacturer excels compared to "hand made" Though Lambo does a really good job.


Lets get something straight here. The Vette team that has been in place here for years had nothing to do with killing the Fiero. Most of these guys were still in High School then. Second Pontiac also contributed to the death by taking risks that pretty much sealed its fate unless many things went 100% right. Chevy needed a reason to kill the car and Pontiac gave them many. The death of the Fiero was due to Chevy, GM and Pontiac.

The problem is sports cars make little money due to the low volumes they are generally sold. A 2 seat car is a limited market as not everyone can live with one as a daily driver. Pontiac hurt themselves selling so many Fiero's in the first few years waiting for the GM 80 platform to enter the plant but when it failed to that was the end. The rest of the market has problems as the cars are fine for 5-10 years but when it is time to replace it then it becomes difficult to justify billions to remake a car that will only sell around. 20K units at a low price that brings little return on investment. As development cost continue to rise today it will only get worse.

Mazda survives as they limit sales in each market but sell globally. This helps but even then it is difficult. It gets to a point you need volume but you are not going to sell 50K or more cars with 2 seats and then cars are not cheap anyways and to sell it at a low price is not worth the effort when the same amount of development money could go to a CUV that sells 250K units a year that make 3 times the money per unit sold. .

This is why most sports cars cost a lot of money as that is the only way they make money in such low volumes.

As for all the MFG they all do a good job anymore as most are owned by large MFGs now. Lambo is VW and they are not just hammering them out in some back room like they used to.

The Fiero will never return because mostly the name has been damaged. While things have improved a name like that would never be brought back. Also today the Vette team had no issue with the Kappa sports cars. GM did three versions and they did well for a while but then died as the market got saturated and they were not worth the investment to save. GM could have move a version from Pontiac and Saturn to Buick but it was not worth the cost for the return they would have seen.

Today Opel has a small sports car they have been showing. They would like to do it but it has to be done globally to keep the price down and the return on investment up.

Also the wild card here is Cadillac may look into a BMW like roadster to come in at around $50K on say an Alpha platform. They could support a higher price to where they would make money on a low volume car.

Everyone thinks the Vette gets a free ride. It is a very difficult car to develop, build and sell at a profit. Few companies could do as they have done but they still have to make a business case like any other car and they have faced cancellation several times once just as recent as the early 90's. This was why they were worried about the Fiero. Many did not know the Corvette was canceled and if not for their manager who ignored it and got sales to stabilize it would not be here today. He paid dearly with his future at GM but he is seen as a hero to the Vette fans today.

The bottom line is even if the Fiero had made the second gen odds are good it would have only lasted 5 more years if that. There were just too many things going wrong. The DOHC engine they had planned was a real problem at GM and the warranty issues could have finished it off let along a dozen other issues.

A cheap sports car is one of the hardest things to pull off and even when you do the shelf life is limited due to economics. Even the higher priced cars would not have made it if not they were sold off many times like Lambo or bought by a larger corporation like Fiat at Ferrari all the while getting more and more expensive to make.

Seen a Triump lately? How about a Sunbeam? RX7?, There are so many names with two seats lost to history.

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qwikgta
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Report this Post02-02-2017 01:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thinking on this I have to say that if GM was serious about doing an inexpensive mid engine car they could seriously just buy a LS3 swapped 88, bring it into the R&D center and "blow it apart". In other words, take what we have done (big shout out to Archie and his team) and then take it to the next level. I'm not suggesting that they would use any of the Fiero stuff or Archies kit, but it would allow them to see how it all fits into a small package. Then engineer it for a 2018 market. Imagine what that would do for us. A manual trans that can actually take 400 lbs of torque. A suspension designed for a smooth-sporty ride, 13" brakes that were designed for the car, not "made to fit". Electric Power steering, A/C, cruise control, MP3, bluetooth, I can't imagine how awesome it would be for us to either buy the new car as a daily driver, or to someday use the parts like we do now with the 3800SC, Ecotec and others. I know its just a dream, but I think it would be so cool.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post02-02-2017 05:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:

Thinking on this I have to say that if GM was serious about doing an inexpensive mid engine car they could seriously just buy a LS3 swapped 88, bring it into the R&D center and "blow it apart". In other words, take what we have done (big shout out to Archie and his team) and then take it to the next level. I'm not suggesting that they would use any of the Fiero stuff or Archies kit, but it would allow them to see how it all fits into a small package. Then engineer it for a 2018 market. Imagine what that would do for us. A manual trans that can actually take 400 lbs of torque. A suspension designed for a smooth-sporty ride, 13" brakes that were designed for the car, not "made to fit". Electric Power steering, A/C, cruise control, MP3, bluetooth, I can't imagine how awesome it would be for us to either buy the new car as a daily driver, or to someday use the parts like we do now with the 3800SC, Ecotec and others. I know its just a dream, but I think it would be so cool.


GM has no issue knowing how to build the car physically. The trick is to sell it in volumes great enough to lower the price and still make money. That is what makes this difficult. I think with the computer programs GM has they will be just find in the engineering department. The economics are what really kill programs like this and why so many are short lived.

Car companies are in this to make money not just cool cars. The problem is many Cool cars are not money makers unless they price goes up. And the other problem is many cool cars sell in low volumes.

Now if you can find a way to present a profitable business case to where they could get sales volume of around 25K cars a year and still make a good sized profit while keeping development cost down that is what would help them.

As for the rest GM is more than able to outdo what anyone here can do in there garage.


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Report this Post02-02-2017 08:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


GM has no issue knowing how to build the car physically. The trick is to sell it in volumes great enough to lower the price and still make money. That is what makes this difficult. I think with the computer programs GM has they will be just find in the engineering department. The economics are what really kill programs like this and why so many are short lived.




Can you explain what is going on with the Camaro? I mean I don't understand who is buying these special edition Camaros that cost more than the entry level Corvette. I would take an extry level Corvette all day long over a Camaro SS and I would take the Grand Sport in a heart beat over the ZL1.

I guess it's trying to compete with the Hellcat, but who is buying these cars in general? I guess I've heard one argument that the 'Vette will depreciate like any other car but a limited edition Camaro is worth more in the long run. Only if you don't drive it, then what's the point?
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Report this Post02-02-2017 09:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From a strict accounting perspective, the economics of "cool cars" suck.

However, what do cool cars do for brand image? That is a somewhat intangible asset, but it's important.

If you neglect investing in your brand, you may cash in on CUVs and make good profit next quarter, but I think it's gonna catch up with you eventually.

The Corvette has a transaxle, but it's differential is at the far end of the transaxle case away from the engine. This probably makes the drivetrain too long to be viable in a mid-engine sports car. So either you spend money on a transaxle development program (hard sell), or you go down-segment and grab a Cruze powertrain instead!

Anyway, I'm sure I wouldn't like a new Fiero, since it would certainly be equipped with "new car amenities". (pretty much what quikgta wishes for )
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hyperv6
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Report this Post02-02-2017 09:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


Can you explain what is going on with the Camaro? I mean I don't understand who is buying these special edition Camaros that cost more than the entry level Corvette. I would take an extry level Corvette all day long over a Camaro SS and I would take the Grand Sport in a heart beat over the ZL1.

I guess it's trying to compete with the Hellcat, but who is buying these cars in general? I guess I've heard one argument that the 'Vette will depreciate like any other car but a limited edition Camaro is worth more in the long run. Only if you don't drive it, then what's the point?


Boy that is a tough one.

The Camaro and even the Mustang are dying slowly in America. Sales have been on a decline as boomers that bought these cars are now getting to be 60-70 years old. The younger kids are not into them as much, Yes there are some but much fewer.

To survive I see both GM and Ford moving these cars to a more traditional 2+2 GT car but yet with a little muscle car flavor. That is why they are making them handle much better and the power is cheap.

The Zl1 really is not a problem as you can buy it loaded for the price of as entry level Corvette. The GS gets much more expensive with the same engine. The Stingray and become a sports car but not an over the top car like the the standard Vette used to be.

The model that is a real puzzle was the Z/28. It was a world class car in performance but the price on that one was off the chart. I assumed they were going to race it some place but the class they raced in they pulled out. This left it just as a special model at a high price. Then you saw them drop the price to $50K and sell them off. It was a real good buy at that price.

But to remain viable they will have to go to a global market and sell them around the world and make them more appealing to buyers in these markets. It is going to go from a main stream market car to a GT niche car. That is the only way to survive.

The Hell Cat was never a concern. They sell so few and GM is about the whole package now not just a big engine and quarter miles.

The Hell Cat is a cry for help from Chrysler engineers who have been budget starved. The engine was an old plan they brought back because FCA has delayed their new model several times. They have a very very old car and it is not even competitive with the market and is only selling based on loyalty and nostalgia. The road test refused to test it compared to the Camaro and Mustang as it came in third vs the old models. The new engine created attention and gave them some PR.

The truth is they could have done less HP and been as fast as the engine management is the only way they put power down. The computer dials it back much. This is why they are doing a Demon and the AWD model even though it is a V6 sadly.

The new car was delayed till 2018 and not it is reported 2021. I expect the new car will not be a V8 and have the Alfa Turbo. It also will share the same platform if they do not ax the car all together. The Alfa kept getting delayed with chassis issues and quality issues. This pushed the rest back.

It may be interesting to see what Ford and GM do to keep volumes up in the coupes. They are a hard sell and they are face with the issue people are not going to pay more and it is difficult to build them for less. In the day like today a Malibu can go for $35K and a Fusion can run over $40K cars are not cheap and the Camaro and Mustang can no longer just be a Cheap econo car with a big engine. That formula died with the last RWD econo car.

That is my take of what I see. What they will do Hmmm?


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hyperv6
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Report this Post02-02-2017 09:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

From a strict accounting perspective, the economics of "cool cars" suck.

However, what do cool cars do for brand image? That is a somewhat intangible asset, but it's important.

If you neglect investing in your brand, you may cash in on CUVs and make good profit next quarter, but I think it's gonna catch up with you eventually.

The Corvette has a transaxle, but it's differential is at the far end of the transaxle case away from the engine. This probably makes the drivetrain too long to be viable in a mid-engine sports car. So either you spend money on a transaxle development program (hard sell), or you go down-segment and grab a Cruze powertrain instead!

Anyway, I'm sure I wouldn't like a new Fiero, since it would certainly be equipped with "new car amenities". (pretty much what quikgta wishes for )


The problem is the cool factor is working not like it used to. Some of the best selling car companies in the world really have little in cool. Toyota? not really cool. Honda. They did the NSX but sales are not going anywhere. VW has the Golf GTI and R but not really cool as in Corvette like or Camaro like.

The only thing catching up to GM is they are short new CUV models that they are just now getting out and Cadillac was several short and will be for about 2 more years.

The Corvette Trans axle may be used in the new car only a 8 speed version. It is packaged to a torque tube now and could be fitted to the engine. Not a reach here. The transmission is already based on a Camaro. Also there was talk that GM was taling to a company about supplying a duel disc deal. Then they just buy them and stick them in.

As for image today most companies no longer sell cars on the cool image. They sell safe, They sell reliable, they sell amenities like third row not standard shift. The car culture is dying and getting older. Younger people appeal to some of it yet but not like it used to be.

Hell most cars today have well over 200 HP many over 300 HP in a standard car. Most people are more than happy with that and will not pay a bigger price for 500 HP. Most grew up in 150 HP Honda and Toyota cars.

I grew up in Chevelles. My dad got a new one every year and I went and bough my own SS later on. Kids today know no thrills and don't care like they used to. Even my company has expanded into Quads and bikes as that is where the fast youth is. They can afford it.

Today even a rusty old Chevelle will set you back over $12K

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Report this Post02-03-2017 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If I ran GM, I wouldn't do a 2 seat mid engine sportscar. As stated, there is no money in it and there are already good cars in that market. If and when a new 2 seater mid engine car hits the market, it will be from a smaller manufacturer looking for a nitch market. Just my take.
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Report this Post02-03-2017 12:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is a story and link to the Two engine Citation GM used as a test mule for the Corvette. One front engine and one mid engine.

GM had feared the loss of the V8 so they took two V6 engines and made an AWS 12 cylinder car. It sounds great.

The car is set up much like the Fiero in the back and even has a Fiero steering wheel.

I am shocked he got it on the street as I thought it was sold with no Vin. GM did not want this on the street per the auction it was sold at.

There is a series of Videos that are interesting.

http://gmauthority.com/blog...-test-vehicle-video/

Now if we can only get GM to sell the mid engine Malibu they did for the Corvette early Mule. Anyone remember this easter egg GM left out and so many discounted it 3 years ago.

http://gmauthority.com/blog...epic-ruse-spy-shots/
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Report this Post02-03-2017 07:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lateFormulaSend a Private Message to lateFormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
A cheap sports car is one of the hardest things to pull off and even when you do the shelf life is limited due to economics.


How do you explain the Mazda Miata?
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Report this Post02-03-2017 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lateFormula:


How do you explain the Mazda Miata?


I did earlier but here it is again.

The Miata has the formula down but it is still not easy.

#1 Global sales. They sell this car around the world and almost everywhere.

#2 Not overselling any one market. They average around 16K-18K units per year over a platform run. They start strong and end up around 10K units when it is old.

#3 Special editions and special features every year. Some with limited colors and wheels.

#4 They have had to go to share the platform with Fiat now so they have help spread the production cost out.

#5 The car appeals as much or more to women as it does men. It is a good mix of macho cool but feminine taste. This is a big one.

Now with all that said it was still a struggle to make the latest version. The development cost were a major factor and they almost did not make it but for the income on the Fiat sharing of the cost.

The Corvette has lived mostly because it has used many off the shelf parts and the development cost have been low for most of the years but that dynamic has changed in the last 20 years. They have had increased cost hence the ever higher prices. But we also got a much better car today. No more good car for the money it is now just a good car period.

Also they have a large following that has given this car icon status much like the 911. Many people are loyal buyers and often own more than one. Many collect them like Hot Wheels.

Now GM tried the Miata plan on the Kappa roadster but it just never gelled. They never could get the sales. They also were having money problems that prevented special models. They did suffer development issues as they tried to stay with the show cars styling that lead to packaging issues. It also had issues with being forced to off the shelf parts which were better than the Fiero had but still hurt it in the long run. The overseas sales were weak. Even if Saturn and Pontiac had not died I suspect the Solstice and the rest would have been laid to rest in 4 years or less.

Even if the Fiero had lived past 88 I suspect it only had 5 years or less to live. A lot of things had to go right for long term sales and I just did not see that with GM and cash poor as they were.

I hope this explains it. This is not my idea but how it was explained by people in the industry that have been involved in all these programs. There are some other details too but this is the main points.

People on the web just seldom consider all the factors involved with approving and building a car. Today it is as tough as ever and it is making it difficult to do some fun things anymore at a price many can afford.

Note too the Miata is a rare model as they got about the things they needed to be right. But in the end here it may be difficult for them to continue on at some point at their price point. They will have to rely on sharing the platform and if Fiat pulls out and no one steps in it could kill the whole thing.

Note even the Corvette has been on the bubble several times and even was canceled once in the early 90's and survived only because the manager disobeyed orders and paid for it with his job. He was in line to move up but after that he was left to wither till he retired.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 02-03-2017).]

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Report this Post02-03-2017 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


Boy that is a tough one.

...



Thanks for the insight... but it's still muddy to me. I grew up on Camaros and Trans Am that even fully optioned were not that expensive compared to everything else. Maybe the real world prices of the ZL1 are close to entry level Corvette, but when I see them in the showroom they are pushing 6 figures. I just can't see myself ever wanting a 6 figure Camaro. I wouldn't ever buy a 6 figure Corvette either unless I win the lottery. Maybe I'm just getting too old to find today's cars interesting. The Camaro interior is still horrible to me. It's too retro; for what it costs I want a modern interior, not a 60s throwback interior with gauges in the center console. Have they fixed that yet? It's horrible to me.
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Report this Post02-04-2017 12:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


Thanks for the insight... but it's still muddy to me. I grew up on Camaros and Trans Am that even fully optioned were not that expensive compared to everything else. Maybe the real world prices of the ZL1 are close to entry level Corvette, but when I see them in the showroom they are pushing 6 figures. I just can't see myself ever wanting a 6 figure Camaro. I wouldn't ever buy a 6 figure Corvette either unless I win the lottery. Maybe I'm just getting too old to find today's cars interesting. The Camaro interior is still horrible to me. It's too retro; for what it costs I want a modern interior, not a 60s throwback interior with gauges in the center console. Have they fixed that yet? It's horrible to me.



The market has just changed.

The Camaro the first two gens were cheap to make. They were really a Nova with a new body and the 327 was so cheap to make and were also made in volume no where near today.

The SBC was in 80% of all Chevys today it is 15% today in their cars. Also today's engine is not just that simple lump of cheap cast iron today.

Since the is no cheap RWD Car today they had to commit to do a proper coupe but that comes at a cost since they spread the volume out on a smaller number of cars.

Then today insurance for the young is tough and the price tougher.

As for the present cars retro well the Camaro people would like to open the car up more but the key buyer expect retro. So they try to do both. They are in a damn if the do and damn if the don't place. I know people that are key to the Camaro and they would like to really take the car to a more moder place but the core buyers hold them back.

As for car prices show me one that is cheap any more. They all cost too much but not much we can do about it.

People cry for things like a Cruze SS but to do it right it would cos like the Ford RS at $42,000. To make it cheaper it really becomes more a styling exercise.

While we have some of the greatest cars we ever have seen we are in a market and economy that almost prevents them.

It is sad but it is what it is.

Cars have become appliances to many and we the enthusiast are now in the minority.
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Report this Post02-04-2017 01:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

...
People cry for things like a Cruze SS but to do it right it would cos like the Ford RS at $42,000.


Why is that? They already have a similar engine in the Malibu that makes 250(?) HP. That drivetrain (or even a smaller one) in a Cruze would scream.
A bit of suspension tuning, and wide(r) wheels and tires would make it a beast. Seems like the development costs would not be that ugly.
The amenities could remain essentially the same. It's already sorted.

Surely they can do a Cruze SS that costs less money than a Challenger R/T. (Yes... I know the R/T is ancient technology, but still...)
The Cruze hatch is the only Chevy in recent memory that really even remotely interests me. That is, until I read the spec sheet.
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Report this Post02-04-2017 01:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


GM has no issue knowing how to build the car physically. The trick is to sell it in volumes great enough to lower the price and still make money. That is what makes this difficult. I think with the computer programs GM has they will be just find in the engineering department. The economics are what really kill programs like this and why so many are short lived.

Car companies are in this to make money not just cool cars. The problem is many Cool cars are not money makers unless they price goes up. And the other problem is many cool cars sell in low volumes.

Now if you can find a way to present a profitable business case to where they could get sales volume of around 25K cars a year and still make a good sized profit while keeping development cost down that is what would help them.

As for the rest GM is more than able to outdo what anyone here can do in there garage.



This is true but easy to fix..
2018 mid engine vette v8 powerhouse..
built beside it.. a corair Monza using the turbo 4 out of the Camaro.. poked and stroked a little.. with a different nose cone and rear bumper cover tail lights..
Now you have one platform with 2 different models, that serve 2 different markets..
the vette for the guys that want the v8 supercar killer, and the turbo 4 for those middle aged import turbo guys..
This way, they sell more vehicles per platform tooling cost (volume) and the vette is higher than the Camaro v8 and the Monza is below that..

We car people burnt g.m. to many times, to ever have them name any new vehicle a name that has a following..
Pontiac is dead, and so is the Fiero nameplate.. or the firebird idea that is rumored for a buick.. buick might get a f body twin but it won't be named firebird or t/a..
As the car could run circles around every other t/a and people would complain..
They already have a case study on this.. it was a 3 years study, the study was called the 2004-06 gto
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Report this Post02-04-2017 03:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fastback97Click Here to Email fastback97Send a Private Message to fastback97Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I absolutely love corvettes, but I think the long front end with the front engine should be the way it should stay. Sure, come out with a cool new mid engine car, great, but call it something else. Seriously, take away that long hood full of motor?
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Report this Post02-04-2017 09:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


Why is that? They already have a similar engine in the Malibu that makes 250(?) HP. That drivetrain (or even a smaller one) in a Cruze would scream.
A bit of suspension tuning, and wide(r) wheels and tires would make it a beast. Seems like the development costs would not be that ugly.
The amenities could remain essentially the same. It's already sorted.

Surely they can do a Cruze SS that costs less money than a Challenger R/T. (Yes... I know the R/T is ancient technology, but still...)
The Cruze hatch is the only Chevy in recent memory that really even remotely interests me. That is, until I read the spec sheet.


Cars in the class like a Cruze make money in Volume. You do not make money on a car with 5k unit.

The car if done properly is not done with a bigger engine from another car and bigger tires those days are gone as they are not sorted out or passed crash and emissions testing. Even approved in one car they have to resubmit to a new battery of test.

Then to get real performance with FWD even with good tuning it tough.

This I can address easily as I own a HHR SS with a GM Performance tune. I love the car but the FWD sucks as it is so difficult to put the power to the ground. Also the did the suspension right. The reworked it and even changed control arms etc. The sticker new was $28,000 plus back in 2008.

In the end they like the Cobalt SS sold in low numbers. The Cobalt SS sedan in the last year in only a few hundred units.

Ford gets away with lower sales by global sales on the RS.

The GTI is one of the few that sell in great numbers at $30k

Now I am sure GM could make money on one of these cars at a lower cost but if they have a choice of doing a CUV or a small performance sedan they right now will do a CUV. There is just more profit and volume in the CUV.

I want see these cars too but it is just not enough to make money anymore you have to make as much as you can.

GM went broke making many cool cars. They did not fail just in 2008 they went broke over decades while selling many cars and many makes. Today automakers need to focus on making the most money with models sold many now globally.

Now Buick could be a key now sharing cars with Opel, Vauxhall, and Holden. They together could carry global sales of these models and the prices. With the changes with Holden it has slowed. This but I would watch these brands.

Even the Cruze hatch is a risk as hatch models sell much less than a similar CUVsize model. Because of global markets they are trying it. Production also was sent to Mexico due to increased cost and to keep the price down. Many will also go to South America.

It used to be enough to sell cars in America and you would make more mone even in low volume with a few added bits. That is no longer an option. Then toss in the CUV thing in America and the now growing CUV market in Europe.
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hyperv6

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quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:


This is true but easy to fix..
2018 mid engine vette v8 powerhouse..
built beside it.. a corair Monza using the turbo 4 out of the Camaro.. poked and stroked a little.. with a different nose cone and rear bumper cover tail lights..
Now you have one platform with 2 different models, that serve 2 different markets..
the vette for the guys that want the v8 supercar killer, and the turbo 4 for those middle aged import turbo guys..
This way, they sell more vehicles per platform tooling cost (volume) and the vette is higher than the Camaro v8 and the Monza is below that..

We car people burnt g.m. to many times, to ever have them name any new vehicle a name that has a following..
Pontiac is dead, and so is the Fiero nameplate.. or the firebird idea that is rumored for a buick.. buick might get a f body twin but it won't be named firebird or t/a..
As the car could run circles around every other t/a and people would complain..
They already have a case study on this.. it was a 3 years study, the study was called the 2004-06 gto


Yes I am sure there is a large market for a mid engine 4 door named corvair 🙄

Where is there a market for such a car and the Cirvair name has a smaller chance of coming back than the Fiero name. At least the Fiero never had a book written named Unsafe At Any Speed.

We already have a Regal GS that few buy now at a price too high and it has a usable trunk that most people expect in a sedan.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 02-04-2017).]

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Report this Post02-04-2017 09:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is the deal. There is a lot GM could do and make money but today companies have to go after the ones that leverage the most money. It is not enough to just make a profit you have to maximize the profit as cost are so high.

GM will get to more fun cars when they and the market are ready. Right now they need to work to get cars like the Cruze and Bu selling to where they need to be. Adding a sport model is not going to fix their issues.

But with the many needs GM has they may delay these limit volume models for a while.

I with it was different.

The ne Vette while not cheap will still be offered in a lower priced model. As we Fiero people know just because it is mid engine does not mean the can not do a less expensive model. Also it will be no more difficult to work on than the present model.

The C8 will come out 50% will like it and 50% will cry but 6 months later 90% will be fine with it and once the road test come out showing the gains. We play the dance every new C model.

We saw it on the loss of the pop up head lamps and we saw it on the change of the tail lamps and even in 63 some complained about the loss of the trunk.

There is no reason to get dramatic here as we will in the end get a better car that almost all of us will love and the world will envy.

Just let this play out and watch the results.
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Report this Post02-04-2017 11:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From what I've read the mid engine corvette thats about to be announced is going to be a very limited Run to run concurrent with the C7 It's going to be an early release of the C8 in small numbers, and will become the base platform once the C8 is fully introduced as a lineup with your base and Z06, As for the cheaper version, Dont get your hopes up, The solstice was supposed to be Gm's introduction into affordable 2 seaters when in reality it was a modified caviler frame with some pretty sheet metal put on it, And while a very fun car, Very horribly built, The only thing rumored to be in the works of a GM mid engined car that is not the corvette is a second Gen cadilac XLR and that is going to be far from affordable.
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quote
Originally posted by pontiackid86:

From what I've read the mid engine corvette thats about to be announced is going to be a very limited Run to run concurrent with the C7 It's going to be an early release of the C8 in small numbers, and will become the base platform once the C8 is fully introduced as a lineup with your base and Z06, As for the cheaper version, Dont get your hopes up, The solstice was supposed to be Gm's introduction into affordable 2 seaters when in reality it was a modified caviler frame with some pretty sheet metal put on it, And while a very fun car, Very horribly built, The only thing rumored to be in the works of a GM mid engined car that is not the corvette is a second Gen cadilac XLR and that is going to be far from affordable.


You are correct it will be limited at first and high end. You also are correct it will base lower eve models in time fully replacing the C7.

You are off on the cheaper model as it will go cheaper and will only require a modest premium over the C7.

The Solstice was not based on a Cavalier frame. The Cavalier was on a Delta FWD platform and held nothing the Kappa based Solstice could use or share. The Kappa used hydraform frame rails similar but not the same as used on the Corvette.

The Kappa did use the rear diff from a CTS Cadillac the used up the trunk. It also used a Cobalt/SS engine as well lights from a Grand Prix and GMC Envoy. The manual tranny was similar to the Honda 2000.

The packaging of the car was poor mostly due to the lack of money and the use of existing parts hmmm sound familiar. Also the other problem was the need to retain show car appearance. This is why so many show car never go production.

The only thing we know on the Cadillac is the head of Cadillac would like to have it but he made it clear they could not even consider it till 2025. JDN generally is very frank and brutally honest when he talks.

We just need to let this play out is there is so much wrong info and speculation out there and it is really leaving us with things we know are wrong.

I have followed this since the first clues showed up in 07/08. I have followed the words of GM people that generally can be followed also some of the clues set out there.

We should see more mule shots and gain more clues that hard to hide as it comes closed to intro and production.

I do not expect them to announce the lower priced model till later if the do continue with the C7 for a few more years.

Right now I think they will be going with the C7 and C8 together and over 3 years replace the Stingray to make a slow and more affordable transition. That is my guess bases on info that was known. Now did they stick to this? The addition of the Stingray name and the registration of the Zora also play to this kind of plan.

Also the new line at the plant is a second line. By going to two lines could let the C7 live on 3-4 years and then once the cheaper C8 arrives the C7 line could go to the Cadillac. While the Cadillac would share the platform it would be a very different car much like the Audi and Lambo that share platforms.

Just my take.

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quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


Cars have become appliances to many and we the enthusiast are now in the minority.


This is where I am with new cars. They are a commodity, just buy the cheapest one. I have a Chevy Spark that I paid $12K off the lot brand new. It does everything a $40K car does so why pay more?
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Report this Post02-05-2017 02:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


Yes I am sure there is a large market for a mid engine 4 door named corvair 🙄

Where is there a market for such a car and the Cirvair name has a smaller chance of coming back than the Fiero name. At least the Fiero never had a book written named Unsafe At Any Speed.

We already have a Regal GS that few buy now at a price too high and it has a usable trunk that most people expect in a sedan.


I said like the corair...
call it Monza..
Putting a Pontiac nameplate on a chevy will not work.. even if the car is awesome..
The turbo4 mid engine.. is a shoe in.. as it sell..
And where you get the idea of a 4 door..\
Fact.. a v8 mid engine vette and a mid engine same platform turbo 4 Monza or pick a name. would both sell well, and fill 2 different buyers.. and allow the mid engine platform to sell at a much lower price point with the turbo 4.. bringing down the tooling cost on it. as they are not going to move many 150k+ mid engine vettes..

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E.Furgal

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quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


This is where I am with new cars. They are a commodity, just buy the cheapest one. I have a Chevy Spark that I paid $12K off the lot brand new. It does everything a $40K car does so why pay more?


Some like the thrill of being pushed back in the seat..
I never understood the draw of a bbc powered car when you can have a 350-400 hp sbc powered one.. until I drove and owned one with a bbc.. torque is adictive
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Report this Post02-05-2017 08:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


This is where I am with new cars. They are a commodity, just buy the cheapest one. I have a Chevy Spark that I paid $12K off the lot brand new. It does everything a $40K car does so why pay more?


You are doing what many people are doing. Price and utility are the two greatest selling factors. This is why the smaller CUV models are selling so well anymore.

Cheaper to buy cheaper on gas and you still can haul a 70 inch TV or people.

Style and power have moved down the list of wants and needs.

While everyone is not ready for a Spark they are generally down sizing from where they were.

The truth is most people do not need anything but a Spark to get by. It is the appeal of other things that are needed to draw people in to spend more and that has changed over the years as the market has changed.

Right now the CUV is the hit button replacing cars, minivans and larger SUV models. It has become the Swiss Army knife.
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quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:

I said like the corair...
call it Monza..
Putting a Pontiac nameplate on a chevy will not work.. even if the car is awesome..
The turbo4 mid engine.. is a shoe in.. as it sell..
And where you get the idea of a 4 door..\
Fact.. a v8 mid engine vette and a mid engine same platform turbo 4 Monza or pick a name. would both sell well, and fill 2 different buyers.. and allow the mid engine platform to sell at a much lower price point with the turbo 4.. bringing down the tooling cost on it. as they are not going to move many 150k+ mid engine vettes..


You have found the answer to a question that has never been asked.

Or you could take the Alpha and replace the Impala with a 4-6-8 cylinder sedan with Awd and RWD . Used the Camaro suspensions and get the price to just below the present SS.

Even then sales would be limited but the platform would be leveraged on 4 or more models.

Also no mid engine to take up space and scare people who think it more expensive to maintain away.

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quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


You have found the answer to a question that has never been asked.

Or you could take the Alpha and replace the Impala with a 4-6-8 cylinder sedan with Awd and RWD . Used the Camaro suspensions and get the price to just below the present SS.

Even then sales would be limited but the platform would be leveraged on 4 or more models.

Also no mid engine to take up space and scare people who think it more expensive to maintain away.


MIDDLE aged import tuners or ricers (you pick) will not buy a v8 vette.. bu will buy a turbo 4 mid engine vehicle..
but I'm sure you'll tell me ..welp ,and welp and welp..
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