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Finally the monster motor is done! by Raymac85
Started on: 07-28-2016 11:39 AM
Replies: 51 (1924 views)
Last post by: Will on 08-17-2016 12:16 PM
Raymac85
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Report this Post07-28-2016 11:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Raymac85Click Here to visit Raymac85's HomePageSend a Private Message to Raymac85Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hello Fiero friends. I just am super excited and wanted to share my motor with the community. So my good friend John at johns4.9performance helped me build probably the meanest Cadillac 4.5l of all time. This motor is fully balanced and built to the ultimate max output, computer dyno says 363hp. Full roller. Custom Performance camshaft . Ported and polished heads. Open plenum intake and a Holley 600 double pumper. Can somebody let me know how to post pics so I can share this sweet motor on here?

------------------
85 SE v6
86 GT 4.5l v8

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Report this Post07-28-2016 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ITR SOLSend a Private Message to ITR SOLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
At the bottom of every page is a "button" for Pennocks Image Poster. It is a small program that will allow you to post here on the forum.
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tesmith66
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Report this Post07-28-2016 12:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tesmith66Send a Private Message to tesmith66Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When PIP fail you (notice I didn't say if), post them to a site like Photobucket and use the Image button to link to the image.

------------------
1986 SE Aero coupe.

3.4 DOHC swap is complete and running, now just have to finish the rest of the car...

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Patrick
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Report this Post07-28-2016 01:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raymac85:

Can somebody let me know how to post pics so I can share this sweet motor on here?


If you're running Windows, the best way to host/post images here is to use PIP which was designed specifically for use with this site. This is the only way to ensure that your images will always be here as long as PFF exists.

Images can be a maximum width of 1024 pixels. Height can be anything. Maximum file size is 300 kb. A great free program for re-sizing and/or re-compressing images is IrfanView.

It's preferable that you not use Photobucket... as often what happens is eventually these posted images will, for one reason or another, just disappear.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-28-2016).]

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gen2muchwork
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Report this Post07-28-2016 02:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gen2muchworkClick Here to Email gen2muchworkSend a Private Message to gen2muchworkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sounds cool, I'd like to see it too. Why the 4.5 vs the 4.9? Thats a lot of hp outta there!
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Raymac85
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Report this Post07-28-2016 04:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Raymac85Click Here to visit Raymac85's HomePageSend a Private Message to Raymac85Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the help I appreciate. I'll hop on my computer right now and get some pics up. Well the reason why I did the 4.5 instead of the 4.9l is the shorter stroke. I wanted a high reving motor. I also got the aluminum flywheel from west cost Fiero. It red lines at 6,000 rpm👍🏻
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Raydar
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Report this Post07-28-2016 05:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Holy crap! Sounds great!
Is that crank HP? Measured on an engine dyno? (I'm guessing yes.)

I'm surprised you could find that much in the heads. Would be interested in hearing about it.

------------------
Raydar
88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550

Praise the Lowered!

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Raymac85
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Report this Post07-28-2016 09:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Raymac85Click Here to visit Raymac85's HomePageSend a Private Message to Raymac85Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post





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Raymac85
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Report this Post07-28-2016 10:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Raymac85Click Here to visit Raymac85's HomePageSend a Private Message to Raymac85Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ya these motors have a ton of potential. The heads where ported and polished by John himself at Johns4.9performance and he knows how to get the horses out of it. Also he set me up with big Chevy valves and heavy duty springs to Match. Also some sweet roller rockers to top it off.

------------------
85 SE v6
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KurtAKX
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Report this Post07-28-2016 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raymac85:

Hello Fiero friends. I just am super excited and wanted to share my motor with the community. So my good friend John at johns4.9performance helped me build probably the meanest Cadillac 4.5l of all time. This motor is fully balanced and built to the ultimate max output, computer dyno says 363hp. Full roller. Custom Performance camshaft . Ported and polished heads. Open plenum intake and a Holley 600 double pumper. Can somebody let me know how to post pics so I can share this sweet motor on here?


You mean the "desktop dyno" computer software?
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Raymac85
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Report this Post07-29-2016 07:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Raymac85Click Here to visit Raymac85's HomePageSend a Private Message to Raymac85Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ya that's on the desk top dyno. I know there not 100 percent accurate but still exciting numbers. I'm gonna dyno it after its in my GT and post the bwhp and crank hp numbers on it.
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Report this Post07-29-2016 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post07-29-2016 10:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Err, is that carb sitting on a 4bbl to 2bbl adapter?
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Raymac85
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Report this Post07-29-2016 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Raymac85Click Here to visit Raymac85's HomePageSend a Private Message to Raymac85Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's a 4.1l intake with a adapter and a Holley 600 double pumper
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dobey
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Report this Post07-29-2016 01:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raymac85:

It's a 4.1l intake with a adapter and a Holley 600 double pumper


Do you have (and did you use in Desktop Dyno), accurate flow numbers for that? Did the heads get flowbenched at all? It seems like too much carb for the intake, to me.

Not trying to knock your build, but just don't want you to be too heartbroken when you hit a real dyno and see maybe 220 HP at the wheels.
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Report this Post07-29-2016 06:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That is, without a doubt, the best looking Caddy 4.x engine I've seen yet.
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Raymac85
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Report this Post07-29-2016 10:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Raymac85Click Here to visit Raymac85's HomePageSend a Private Message to Raymac85Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks 👍🏻
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Raydar
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Report this Post07-29-2016 11:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raymac85:
... I also got the aluminum flywheel from west cost Fiero.


Have you actually run it yet?

Just asking because, IIRC, the 4.5 and the 4.9 are balanced differently. If you are running a 4.9 flywheel on a 4.5, I think you will have problems.

Please check it out. I'd hate for you to go to the trouble of assembling it into a car, and then realize that the balance is whacked. (Note that not all 4.5s are the same. I'm thinking that yours is based on the '90 PFI 4.5. Which is essentially a destroked - and differently balanced - 4.9.)

Sorry... Really not trying to whiz in your cheerios. I want this to be successful. I have a 4.9 that is begging for... something more.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-29-2016).]

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Raymac85
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Report this Post07-30-2016 06:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Raymac85Click Here to visit Raymac85's HomePageSend a Private Message to Raymac85Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the concern and yes the 4.5 is internally and externally balanced. I had the crank completely balanced so it would not have to have the counter weight on the flywheel anymore. And ya it's a 1990 4.5. Sounds like you know these motors pretty well. Thanks for the input. 👍🏻 so did you stick with the fuel injection on yours or carb it?

------------------
85 SE v6
86 GT 4.5l v8

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Report this Post07-30-2016 07:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Did I tell you just how much I hate you so jealous lol congrats gonna have a wicked car.
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Report this Post07-30-2016 09:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Having done several 4.9 swaps, I am curious what it pulls on the dyno...
I would recommend adding an idler puller between the alternator and crank pulley. There isn't sufficient wrap and it will likely slip at WOT and when driving it in the rain. Something like this:
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Report this Post07-30-2016 10:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raymac85:
...so did you stick with the fuel injection on yours or carb it?



I stuck with the EFI. Mine is a Fiero Factory swap. They swapped in the entire Caddy drivetrain. 4.9, 4T60E and PCM.
Of course, being that guy who can never leave anything alone, I removed the 4T60E and the stock intake, and swapped in a Beretta 5 speed and Allante intake setup.
I am also planning to replace the Caddy PCM with a 7730. (Have been talking about that for several years now, but it's way down the list.)

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Report this Post07-30-2016 06:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nice clean build and good looking. Just one suggestion. I would wrap each pulley with a belt that goes around it at least 50% of the circumference. Possible belt slip if you don't follow this rule. I would not trust the desktop dyno for numbers. Using it, Rich from the now defunct Whitehouse company used to show customers that he could provide 300 HP from a modified normally aspirated 3.1L V6.
IMO if you break 200 HP at the wheels on the dyno, you are doing excellent with this engine. Stock 4.9L's typically pull 150- 170 RWHP but the massive torque makes them fun engines to drive around town. Capt Fiero, [Dave] had a heavily modified 4.9L engine in his Fiero and you might want to ask him about his power numbers. Can't wait to hear of your results.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Raymac85
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Report this Post07-30-2016 10:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Raymac85Click Here to visit Raymac85's HomePageSend a Private Message to Raymac85Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok thanks for the advise and the compliment 👍🏻 i think it will be a good heartbeat for my fastback
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Report this Post08-02-2016 05:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JLSG64Send a Private Message to JLSG64Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi Fiero fans,
This is John from John's 4.9 Performance. I built the motor on this post and I also have a Cadillac 4.9 built like this motor that's in my 85 Fiero GT. It runs just as good as the 350 I had in there before. That 350 motor had 345 hp. I just wanted to clear up some questions on this post. The intake manifold is made from a 4.1 intake and no adapter is used. The center section is removed and a 4 barrel flange is attached. The intake is now an open plenum design like an Edelbrock torker manifold. Also about 8 hours of porting was done to this manifold for max flow. The heads are #820 castings ported and polished with 1.94 and 1.6 stainless steel valves and performance springs and roller rockers. Cam is provided by Delta Cams. Balancing the 4.5 is a pain in the butt. The engine is internally balanced on the front half and externally balanced from the back half. Heavy metal was added to the rear section of the crankshaft to balance the motor with the aluminum flywheel. Balancing was performed by master machinist Mike Hughes at Hughes Automotive Machine in Fallon, Nevada.
Here are some pics.
Thanks for all your questions and comments about this motor. I am trying to be the first business to offer hi-performance parts for the Cadillac 4.9 engines.
John
www.johns49performance.com



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Will
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Report this Post08-07-2016 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Do you have before and after flow numbers for the heads?

Apparently you haven't been working with Bud's Outback in Tucson... although I'm not sure he's still in business.
http://www.yellowpages.com/tucson-az/buds-outback

The 4.5/4.9 sleeves can be bored 1mm and used with stock Northstar pistons. This yields 10.5ish compression. The '99 and older pistons have ~3.5cc valve reliefs but are otherwise flat tops. '99 and older Northstars use the same diameter piston pin as the 4.9, so the pistons install without mods beyond boring the liners. The Y2K and later Northstars use true flat top pistons without valve reliefs, so they'd be good for another couple of points of compression, BUT they use smaller piston pins so the 4.5/4.9 rods would have to be rebushed to the smaller size.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-07-2016).]

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JLSG64
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Report this Post08-08-2016 03:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JLSG64Send a Private Message to JLSG64Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi,
I don't have flow bench numbers for the heads. I do the heads myself, concentrating on removal of exhaust guide tip in the exhaust port, and opening up the the throat of the valve port to the larger valve size. I also gasket match the intake and exhaust ports. Heads are milled .020" to bump up the compression.
Who is Bud?
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Will
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Report this Post08-08-2016 05:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bud is (was?) the proprietor of Bud's Outback. That's the shop that built the Gr8Grip friction device. The website the shop used to operate is gone, so the yellowpages link I posted is all the info I have.

If you don't have flow bench numbers, how do you get port flow data for desktop dyno?

What's your throat %?
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Report this Post08-08-2016 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JLSG64Send a Private Message to JLSG64Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Under heads in desk top dyno I just use "low performance/ported, large valves". Not really putting much into Desktop Dyno numbers. The motor runs strong. After my clutch is broken in I'll get some real dyno numbers for you.
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Report this Post08-08-2016 06:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JLSG64Send a Private Message to JLSG64Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

JLSG64

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Will,
What kind of head work do you have on your 4.9 heads? Please share.
Thanks,
John
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Will
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Report this Post08-09-2016 09:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I play with Northstars instead.
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Will
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Report this Post08-10-2016 04:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There have been plenty of people on this forum who've made extravagant claims about the 4.9. Some of them were just talking out their wazoos, some of them had good intentions but were not aware of just how limited the engine is.

You've obviously moved a LOT of iron, particularly in the exhaust ports. I understand that's a lot of effort to have gone to for a lukewarm reception here. Keep it up; you deserve to see the fruits of your hard work... but just realize that without numbers you can back up, it's just talk on the internet.

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Report this Post08-10-2016 05:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JLSG64Send a Private Message to JLSG64Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Will,
I don't think 4.9 are so limited they can't make power. The stock intake manifold, heads and exhaust manifolds are what limits the motor. I have replaced those parts. I'm just trying to build parts for the Fiero enthusiast who wants more grunt out of there 4.9 engine swap. And I think I did that. That's all.
So what do you do to your Northstar motors?
John
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Raydar
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Report this Post08-10-2016 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JLSG64:
I don't think 4.9 are so limited they can't make power. The stock intake manifold, heads and exhaust manifolds are what limits the motor. I have replaced those parts. I'm just trying to build parts for the Fiero enthusiast who wants more grunt out of there 4.9 engine swap. And I think I did that. That's all.
...


As I may have mentioned, I have a 4.9 with Allante intake in my car. I am interested in what you've been doing. (Yes... I prefer EFI, personally. Much easier to tune than a carb, IMHO.)
As Will implied, others have been only marginally successful, modding this motor.
As the saying goes, "Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door."

We're here. Somewhat subdued, but we're here.
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Will
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Report this Post08-10-2016 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you got 250 RWHP with a good fuel and ignition tune, you'd be at the top of the heap with regard to 4.9 performance.

The most impactful thing you're doing is a far greater degree of head porting than previous builds. You're the first to do shorty headers to my knowledge, but those don't help if the heads can't move the air. You're using a different manifold than other builders have used, but it's still a production manifold from a 150 HP engine. Delta is still selling regrinds, which are limited in the lift and duration they bring to the table. There are a lot of things about this engine that make it very very difficult to get good power from it.

Power really is in the heads, so if you've been able to get enough airflow out of them to make a bit more power, that sounds like fun. If your engine is doing well with stock pistons and compression, then a big bore build with Northstar pistons would give you that much more. One thing that the 4.9/5.0 displacement does that the 4.5/4.6 displacement won't is that the relatively cheap Northstar pistons give higher compression on the bigger engine.

My Northstar has a built shortblock with 11.5 compression, coated pistons and gapless top rings. It has *stock* MAF, throttle, intake, heads, cams and one stock exhaust manifold. The other manifold is a log type unit I fabbed. The exhaust is a dual 2.5" with X-pipe. It made 312 RWHP with a good tune in the computer. Next step will be thoroughly worked heads with a Y2K+ intake manifold, then on to playing with cams.

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Patrick
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Report this Post08-10-2016 10:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

If you got 250 RWHP with a good fuel and ignition tune, you'd be at the top of the heap with regard to 4.9 performance.


I'm just curious how you felt about the following 4.9 build. Would it have been less than 250 RWHP, or is that impossible to speculate on? The build was looking promising... up until the car got cracked up.

Supercharging the Cadillac 4.9 with Allante intake and Gen V M90 supercharger by MaxCubes
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Report this Post08-11-2016 12:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JLSG64Send a Private Message to JLSG64Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I read that 4.9 build a while back. I applaud his effort but I think the blower is too small. Not really my thing trying to figure out fuel injection systems. I really could not even guess on the horsepower. I have a different idea for supercharging a 4.9.
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Report this Post08-11-2016 12:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JLSG64Send a Private Message to JLSG64Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Will,
I really like the Northstar engines and it sounds like you know what you are doing. I have a 2003 Northstar I want to use in a kit car. I made an intake manifold for it using 4 IDF Webers. I just love carbs! Okay I'm old school. And I haven't ran the motor yet so who knows. The only thing I don't like about Northstar engine is they are BIG. Actually, lets go with they are wide. Seems like a tight squeeze in a Fiero, but definitely a bad ass motor to use in your Fiero!
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Patrick
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Report this Post08-11-2016 12:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JLSG64:

I have a different idea for supercharging a 4.9.


At some point, you're going to have to tell us.

Will, you were involved in that thread. Would you have any idea how much HP that 4.9 might've been putting out?
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theogre
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Report this Post08-11-2016 01:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by fieroguru:
Having done several 4.9 swaps, I am curious what it pulls on the dyno...
I would recommend adding an idler puller between the alternator and crank pulley. There isn't sufficient wrap and it will likely slip at WOT and when driving it in the rain. Something like this:
Yup.

As posted above alt will have problems. Even in dry weather just making amp load, the belt can slip and quickly die because not enough wrap. Look like <1/4 of alt pulley.
Idle pulley might not wrap enough for heavy power loads. look like maybe ~1/3 of alt pulley.

Ratio of crank and alt pulleys matters too. High ratio mean can/will spin the alt too fast and fry the alt bearings and brushes. Worse when you hit WOT. If redline is 6000 w/ 2.5:1 then alt is spinning at 15000. See my Cave, Watt Story

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


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