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High Horsepower Fiero's? How much is the limit. by Capt Fiero
Started on: 06-29-2016 03:23 AM
Replies: 76 (2031 views)
Last post by: Capt Fiero on 07-21-2016 03:58 AM
Capt Fiero
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Report this Post06-29-2016 03:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Before anyone says, it's the trans, I am aware of the limits of the trans. I am more concerned with chassis flex, or ripping the front cradle mounts.

When my last 4.9 blew, I decided to sell off the blown motor as it had several thousand dollars in custom parts. I then think I lost my head for a while, and I bought the parts to build a 1000hp capable LS Style motor. Plan is to keep the boost low, so the power will be an easy 450-500hp. (6.0 Liter LQ4 with large Turbo, external waste-gate, blow-off vale, AEM boost controller, inter-cooler and all the related exhaust parts from a 383ci GM ZZ Performance motor, that was installed in a not so well known Fiero in BC Canada. I have to swap headers to make it work on the LS heads.

I don't really want to go into the build thread here, I'll start a separate thread later.


What I am looking for is real world info. Like did you have to install a cage, what HUBs / CV shafts did you end up using. There are a million things I can think of, but is the amount of things I can't think of that worry me.

What kind of mounts did you find worked the best. Does anyone have any really good intercooler setups that they want to share. I don't even know if the stock Fiero fuel filter will flow enough fuel. I've already got the new pump specifically for this swap.

I am kinda lucky as the car is my old 4.9 car so the cradle, and fuel system are already setup for a V8. I have a hood vent and decklid cowl style vent. Thanks to forum member Car-Lo for helping me with all body mods to the car. His work is astounding. I've also got a front splitter built into the nose of car to aid in high speed stability and cooling.

I'll be ordering Archies Master LS kit to complement the swap, so I don't have to chase parts all over the country like I did with my first 4.9 build.

When I ran my old 4,9 I found the limits of abuse you could put the car through and for the most part, it was pretty forgiving. If you don't bang shift the gears or attempt a sharp turn in 1st with your foot into it, it would be fine.
I also had major issues with door glass trying to pull out at speeds over 140mph. (4.9 plus nitrous and a 5 spd.)

Did you box the entire cradle, or just re-enforce it.

I'll also be running an MSD with 2 Step launch control. Which should let me get onto the boost at a consistent RPM to help in getting repeatable launch. My 60 foot times were always horrible as at the track I would get anxious and blow the tires off, or bog the car. I had an idea that I am not sure if its even feasible, but jetting my old Nitrous kit down to little more than a purge, like 50hp and spraying it into the intake tract between the turbo and intercooler, to super cool the intercooler during a full pass. I know some guys use it to get the turbo's to spool faster. I may just mount the intercooler up above the roof like some rally cars do with an over the roof scoop.

Any suggestions on ECM tuning software, at this point I am thinking LS1 Edit, is the direction I am thinking.

The purpose of the car will be a street strip / road course / autocross car. However leaning heavily on the street side of things. I want to be able to drive it to work during the week, and the track on Friday nights. With the boost controller built into the dash, I'll be able to dial boost down or up while I am driving depending on situation.



So any suggestions? Pit Falls from building something so over the top. I always joked there is no such thing as too much horsepower, but getting closer to assembling this monster, I have started to get worried that it just MAY be to much.

PS I already have Robert Wagoner's books, High Performance Fieros on installing an LS1 into a Fiero and his 2nd book, how to turbo any engine that wasn't made for boost. On that note, does anyone have copies of Robert Wagoner's excel sheets he referenced in the book?


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For Sale $4000, Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front,

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Report this Post06-29-2016 04:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Only one thing to worry about is balance. Can build a 350 chev to 5000hp but wont make it go faster. Seems fastest 1/4s are done with 3800 turbos or supercharged and they still corner. I don't think you really need a cage and believe car can handle without tension bars although some members have mentioned cracking around struts. The real problem is the axles not taking the load as well as mentioned transmission.

[This message has been edited by Australian (edited 06-29-2016).]

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Report this Post06-29-2016 09:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
"Plan is to keep the boost low, so the power will be an easy 450-500hp. "

I'm pretty sure I've seen a few cars with this power that have no mods to the spaceframe, if that gets the conversation headed in the right direction.
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Report this Post06-29-2016 09:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post06-29-2016 10:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Only real limit is how much you are willing to spend on it.

Mostly a cage is only required if you are going to race it, as NHRA and other governing bodies have regulations which will require cages for certain classes. The stock space frame is really quite stout, so if you're not going to race it, a cage isn't really necessary, unless you're also chopping up the frame to make a roadster or such.

Hubs/bearings are going to be a problem if you're going to road/autox it. See Steven Snyder's thread about 88 bearings.

If I recall correctly, Archie's kit solid mounts the engine to the cradle. Which trans are you planning to use? Archie's F40 swap kit has custom axles and a half shaft for it. If you're planning on going with an automatic like the 4t65e, Archie's kit is only designed to work with manual transmissions. He doesn't have an LSx+auto kit yet (and I'm not sure if he ever will at this point, as I don't think many people are asking for it).

The 4.9 and an LSx swap are very different beasts, especially if you want to make this much power. Your cradle will require modification for the new mounts, and your frame rails will need to be notched, and your fuel system will almost certainly need upgrading.

For ECM, i would recommend using an aftermarket one like the AEM Infinity or Haltech Elite, which have their own tuning software, and will give you more options for boost control.
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Report this Post06-29-2016 10:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

"Plan is to keep the boost low, so the power will be an easy 450-500hp. "

I'm pretty sure I've seen a few cars with this power that have no mods to the spaceframe, if that gets the conversation headed in the right direction.


The standard LS3 swap in Fieros is the LS376/480, which is 480 HP at the crank, and 430 at the wheels through the F40. Only "mods" to the frame are the necessary notching for the trans and accessory drive to clear, and the mods to the cradle for mounting and clearance.
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Report this Post06-29-2016 10:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Australian:

Only one thing to worry about is balance. Can build a 350 chev to 5000hp but wont make it go faster. Seems fastest 1/4s are done with 3800 turbos or supercharged and they still corner. I don't think you really need a cage and believe car can handle without tension bars although some members have mentioned cracking around struts. The real problem is the axles not taking the load as well as mentioned transmission.



The 3800 turbo cars with the fastest 1/4 mile times have them because they are set up explicitly for drag racing and getting that fastest 1/4 time. As long as you have the right power curve, power/weight ratio, and gearing, it doesn't matter what engine it is. If all those pieces match up, and the cars are driven the same, they'll be at the finish line in the same number of seconds.
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Report this Post06-29-2016 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I guess I should have mentioned this in the first place the car will be a standard trans. I have not ordered the ls kit yet as I am still on the fence about which manual to use. Currently I have a getrag with a six-puck race clutch. In the early days of my 4.9 I ran an Isuzu 5-speed. I learned how to come on to the power smoothie like a rubber band rather than a jackhammer. I have no doubt I can make the getrag survive for a while. However the F40 swap would definitely give me some sort of reliability

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For Sale $4000, Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front,

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Report this Post06-29-2016 11:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Capt Fiero:

I guess I should have mentioned this in the first place the car will be a standard trans. I have not ordered the ls kit yet as I am still on the fence about which manual to use. Currently I have a getrag with a six-puck race clutch. In the early days of my 4.9 I ran an Isuzu 5-speed. I learned how to come on to the power smoothie like a rubber band rather than a jackhammer. I have no doubt I can make the getrag survive for a while. However the F40 swap would definitely give me some sort of reliability



Pretty much all the Archie LS swaps are running with the F40, with Quaife LSD, and have been cryo treated. I don't know if any of his swaps are running without the LSD or cryo treatments, though.
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Report this Post06-29-2016 03:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a roll bar in mine, but that is to satisfy track, not because it helped the chassis. The guy who did my bar was extremely impressed with the rigidity of the stock car.

I put a reinforcing plate in the front transmission mount area of the subframe as it started to bend there from the mount pulling up. If you have the time and ability, some reinforcing of the subframe and possibly the front subframe mounts on the body would be helpful. With 450 whp on street mode and 584 rwhp at track, I have not had any major chassis failures, but if I was to start over I would reinforce those areas.

Running stock bearings and stock size/component axles, with minimal failures, and only at the drag strip.

------------------
10.007 @ 135.54MPH. <-- Video
Best 60' 1.42
Best mph 137.66
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 140lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, stock L32 bottom end and heads.

Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

[This message has been edited by LFiero67 (edited 06-29-2016).]

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Report this Post06-29-2016 03:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for louSend a Private Message to louEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Anything above 500hp or 500 lbs of torque and you will feel the monocoque flex. It is very scary as the car begins to wander under power, the doors will rattle. You MUST weld in a tubular support for the engine compartment tied to a full cage. There were kits made exclusively for the Fiero. The only trans-axle that can handle that kind of power is the 4T85e and it can be modified with a posi traction differential and hardened internals.
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Report this Post06-29-2016 03:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This may be a good thread ask this question on as it is related.

Does the top bolt on bar that goes from strut tower to strut tower, over and behind the engine, actually add any benefit?

Perhaps even on a car that has been notched in areas to fit a powerplant?
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Report this Post06-29-2016 04:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

This may be a good thread ask this question on as it is related.

Does the top bolt on bar that goes from strut tower to strut tower, over and behind the engine, actually add any benefit?

Perhaps even on a car that has been notched in areas to fit a powerplant?


No, the strut towers in the rear are tied together by the trunk wall. The chrome/powdercoated strut bars are entirely for show. Would only help if you were cutting out the entire trunk wall including the larger bar across the top.
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Report this Post06-29-2016 04:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A direct answer to your question would be that probably 1000 HP has been put to the ground in a Fiero. Not sure how it was done but Scott (Darkhorizon) ran a 9 second 1/4 mile with his turbo 3800 and a 4T65eHD. It all stood together and I don't believe that Fiero performance gets much better than that. If you are looking for better performance your combo then sits in unchartered waters. You probably know that the only performance V8 that you can use in a Fiero with the 4T65eHD is the LS4. With a longer LS1,2,3 engine you will probably need the F40 for reliability although I have seen many SBC V8 swaps that used the Getrag. The man to talk to is really V8 Archie as he has done more V8 swaps that anyone else. He may have scaled back his operation a bit but last we heard he is still doing swaps in Las Vegas. He is still online so give him a call.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
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Report this Post06-29-2016 05:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


No, the strut towers in the rear are tied together by the trunk wall. The chrome/powdercoated strut bars are entirely for show. Would only help if you were cutting out the entire trunk wall including the larger bar across the top.


I was told by someone who should know that the trunk bar across teh top isn't welded or bolted to the towers?

They don't know, or its not bolted/welded, but doesn't matter?

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 06-30-2016).]

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Report this Post06-29-2016 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thank you all for the info guys.

@Dobey I'll look into that, and see just whats up.

LFiero67, when you say roll bar are you just talking about a single hoop over the driver/passenger or a small cage., When I get to the cradle mods, I will be boxing in as much as possible and adding 1/4" thick backing plates to where mounts are attached to the cradle. I will look into the front assembly as well. My goal is mid 10's to high 10's. If I go faster that's just icing on the cake.

@lou, the 4T85's are extremely heavy and I wanted to go auto, I have access to a race built 4T65HD full manual control, rated for 1000hp. Came off the Fiero However for ME personally as illogical as it is, rowing through the gears in a stick is what makes the car hobby fun for me. I'd rather replace a standard trans once every 6 months than drive an Auto. I know an auto would be faster in a quarter, but I prefer to grab gears and balance a clutch on my own.

@2.5 Ya that bar is useless unless you have to cut out the trunk wall. Which in my case I have to do, as the intercooler sits over in that area.

@Dennis you are one of the few people I know that have been involved with Fiero's longer than I have and you have probably forgotten more about Turbo's than I'll ever know. So I do take your info very seriously. I have no desire to be at the top of the quarter mile list, just maybe in the top 10 or so. I won't make the kind of sacrifices to the cars comfort or drivability to squeak out that extreme 60ft or be able to hammer the gears as fast as I would need to. I don't think anyone actually has 1000hp in a Fiero yet, and I probably won't either, I MIGHT, try it once on a Dyno, just to see how far it will go, but defiantly not for every day stuff. As to Archie, he was the first man I contacted when I started this whole wild direction, and got some great advice from him. I'll be he gets pestered constantly by people wanting information from him about every aspect of a V8 Fiero, and I don't want to add to his pile of people, when I know I can come here, get great info and recommendations from other guys running big horsepower V8's.

On that note, can anyone send other V8 guys to this thread, or let me know what their user account is so I can go and get their input. I want to hear from a lot of different people, so as I move forward I have a well rounded idea of what needs to be done, vs what I think should be done, and what is simply something I WANT to be done.

Now back to that Turbo knowledge of yours, are you still in the business, and if I sent you the specs to the Turbo, or pictures of it with part numbers, be able to provide me with info on it?

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT , 5spd Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with a Turbo.

For Sale $4000, Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front,

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Report this Post06-29-2016 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
Not sure how it was done but Scott (Darkhorizon) ran a 9 second 1/4 mile with his turbo 3800 and a 4T65eHD. It all stood together and I don't believe that Fiero performance gets much better than that.


Whats his HP and Torque to get there out of curiosity?
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Report this Post06-29-2016 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
142 mph as Scott did would require about 700 wheel horsepower at 3100 lbs. that's dyno jet hp, mustang dyno would be 10-11% less that that.

------------------
10.007 @ 135.54MPH. <-- Video
Best 60' 1.42
Best mph 137.66
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 140lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, stock L32 bottom end and heads.

Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

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Report this Post06-29-2016 09:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Roll bar is NHRA approved design, as required for quicker than 11.50 seconds ET. Main hoop behind driver with supports going back to the tops of the strut towers. Cross bar for 5-point harness at shoulder level and at track I have a bolt in door bar from the main hoop to the front wheel well area.

Pics can be seen in my bucket

http://s1181.photobucket.co...20pics?sort=3&page=1


I meant the front mounts for the rear subframe, where it bolts to the car, not sure if that came across properly before.


------------------
10.007 @ 135.54MPH. <-- Video
Best 60' 1.42
Best mph 137.66
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 140lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, stock L32 bottom end and heads.

Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

[This message has been edited by LFiero67 (edited 06-29-2016).]

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Report this Post06-29-2016 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
@Capt how much boost are you looking to make exactly, and at what elevation?

If You have a bone stock LQ4 and aren't planning on changing it at all (I'd recommend changing to a car intake at least though), it makes 300-325 HP stock. To get 1000 HP out of that, you'd need to run around 30 PSI. I think you'll want more than an intercooler, and really if you want to run an intercooler, I'd suggest looking at going for a water/air heat exchanger system, so you can have a front mount heat exchanger getting plenty of colder air flowing through it, along with meth injection, and you'll probably need to be able to run E85 as well. I'm not sure how available it is where you are, though.

If on the other hand, you're planning to do some work to the engine so that it will make 400-450 HP N/A, and then add boost on top, you can make over 1000 HP on 20 PSI, or 800-900 on about 15 PSI. A ported set of LS6/LS2 (243) heads, ported LS2 intake, and a decent cam would be my suggested starting spot. Remember the LQ4 is a Gen III engine, and the cam reluctor is ground into the rear of the cam on those engines, and not part of the timing gear as on the Gen IV engines. A stock LS6 cam might be a good one to go with, as you can get one relatively cheap, and with ported LS6 heads and a ported LS2 intake, you should make about 420 HP N/A, which would be a decent start for what you want.

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Report this Post06-30-2016 12:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
@ LFiero67 loved the shots, and about every 3rd picture I could ask you questions, but the main one, was it required by NHRA to put the cage through the back glass. I know its all "BecauseRaceCar" stuff, but I'd rather not have to go to a PolyCarb window. Also I guess that style cage kinda killed leg room. I'm no small guy, 220lbs, 6ft tall, with a 36 inch leg. So I usually have the seat kicked all the way back to be comfortable on long drives. I have seen the stock style seats modified to have the harness go through them at shoulder height and I was kinda leaning toward that, if I even chose to install a harness. Also you have a distribution block on the trunk wall, is that for Oil or Fuel? Can you point me to some sort of build thread on your car.


@dobey, the LS6 cam is on my list, as is the possibility of upgraded springs. Ported heads are out of the budget right now, as I am already stretching my planned budget a bit. The goal is 15psi with maybe a touch more on race gas. E85 I have not seen around here ever. (but I have never really looked for it either) I am already tossing the idea of an air to water intercooler then just running water lines up to the front of the car. Right now, I honestly don't know how much power it will put down. I know what the Turbo is spec'ed out for. I know what the engine is stock, and everything in between that is a variable. Heck I have not even picked out injectors yet. I don't know if anyone has a subscription to Motor Trend On Demand, but they did a great video series where they took an LQ4 and a budget Chinese made Turbo, slapped into a cheap 2nd Gen Camaro and not much else aside from Cam/Springs/injectors, on the dyno as it was, made 550hp to the rear wheels. Which would be more than enough to have fun with to start out. They did it with the Truck intake, but I do have the poor mans car, intake the LS1 intake. I have yet to order the car oil pan though. The reason for this thread is I am doing the final choices on parts, and want to make sure I don't spend everything on the motor and find out later I need $2000 in XYZ parts to even make it go in a straight line.


------------------
857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT , 5spd Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with a Turbo.

For Sale $4000, Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front,

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 06-30-2016).]

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Report this Post06-30-2016 01:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, the supports have to be within I believe 6 inches of the top of the bar, so they have to go through the window to be legal. It definitely stops the seat from going all the way back, I'm 5'10, and could use the seat back one more notch, but it will only go so far.

Distribution block is vacuum/boost. Feeds from L26 intake stock brake booster port, and then feeds vacuum/boost to the BOV and waste gate/boost control solenoid. The small port on the L26 brake booster connection feeds the fuel pressure regulator, 3 bar map sensor for boost controller and my boost gauge.

I never made a build thread, I did the swap even before I joined pennocks, and have been through everything from stock L67 with 4 speed manual, through 11.4 second blower build with auto over the course of 7 years, ran that for a few years and then built the turbo setup in 2011, and have run it since. It's my driver during the summer as much as possible, so I tend to just enjoy it more than trying to document everything I do.

------------------
10.007 @ 135.54MPH. <-- Video
Best 60' 1.42
Best mph 137.66
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 140lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, stock L32 bottom end and heads.

Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

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IanT720
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Report this Post06-30-2016 08:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Scott definitely has over 900hp now, Justin with the F23 has around 850hp too. It's crazy. Both have over 800lbft of torque too. Anyways... I don't think the Fiero needs much my goal of 500whp as a daily seems easy enough using my 3800 Turbo setup. As regards to boost... You won't need anything close to 30psi for 1,000hp. I'd say 20-26psi maybe. Especially with the 6 liter. With a manual you are asking for trouble. Both with reliability, more wear on ther components from the shock. And more sketchy to drive. But I do love a manual!
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Report this Post06-30-2016 09:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you think you can get 500 hp to the ground on the street with street tires in a light car, go for it..

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dobey
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Report this Post06-30-2016 11:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:

If you think you can get 500 hp to the ground on the street with street tires in a light car, go for it..


Plenty of people doing this all the time.
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Report this Post06-30-2016 11:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Plenty of people doing this all the time.


Um, no... they don't.. they get it controllable while moving , but they do loose traction at shift points, and corners, or bumps..

A rolling vehicle moving, isn't using that 500hp even as the engine is making it.. and why road course cars use close geared box.. to keep wheel speed and rpm close.. as a wide box changes it to much and even on slicks loose traction from the difference in wheel speed and rpm if they kept the hammer down.. (putting the 500hp to work)

go shift it at the peak and get no wheel slip, or launch it at that 500hp.. up in smoke.. if it did hook it go up and over.. or atleast on it's bumper..
The center of gravity works , nd with no weight in the nose.. it's up up and away..
street tires, on the street you are not hooking 500hp.. and why they tend to break things at shifts or chirp the tires.. as they can't put that power down.

and is why those with a whole engineering team have added torque management.. as even they can't do it..
and why the ecu takes out power at shifts, in turns, and at launch.....
I know I know, you all think parts that broke with 250hp going through it can take the 400-700 they have in showrooms today.. metallurgy be dammed..

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 06-30-2016).]

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Report this Post06-30-2016 11:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post




I have one of those LS376/F40 cars, and mine is a CJB TTop to boot. Talk about a car that should flex !!! Maybe I just don't "get on it" enough, and I have not had it to the track, but I don't notice anything different about the balance or feel of the car since it had the original 2.5L. It does creak and squeak and I notice "flex" when I lift the car (front or rear), it sag's like a 20 year old pack mule. About the only thing I've really wanted to do was put a square-tube cradle under it similar to what was done for the convertable and targa cars. I think that would make me "feel better" about having 500hp out back.

Advice: If your going to cage it or put a chassis under it, obviously do it first when the rear cradle is out and the car is the lightest. I keep telling myself the next time I pull the motor/trans, i'm going to get that square-tube chassis under it.

Good luck and ill be watching this thread to see what you do.

Rob

------------------


88 Coupe, CJB #95, LS376, F40 and a GT clip
LS Build Thread: //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/083204.html
LS on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAH9yjw6XR0

[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 06-30-2016).]

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dobey
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Report this Post06-30-2016 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
Um, no... they don't.. they get it controllable while moving , but they do loose traction at shift points, and corners, or bumps..

A rolling vehicle moving, isn't using that 500hp even as the engine is making it.. and why road course cars use close geared box.. to keep wheel speed and rpm close.. as a wide box changes it to much and even on slicks loose traction from the difference in wheel speed and rpm if they kept the hammer down.. (putting the 500hp to work)

go shift it at the peak and get no wheel slip, or launch it at that 500hp.. up in smoke.. if it did hook it go up and over.. or atleast on it's bumper..
The center of gravity works , nd with no weight in the nose.. it's up up and away..
street tires, on the street you are not hooking 500hp.. and why they tend to break things at shifts or chirp the tires.. as they can't put that power down.

and is why those with a whole engineering team have added torque management.. as even they can't do it..
and why the ecu takes out power at shifts, in turns, and at launch.....
I know I know, you all think parts that broke with 250hp going through it can take the 400-700 they have in showrooms today.. metallurgy be dammed..



Um what? First of all, how "light" is a "light" car? The bloody C6 ZR1 puts out over 500 HP at the wheels, as does the new Z06. Even at 3500 lbs, the Z06 is 1500 lbs lighter than a Tesla Model S, of which the P85D puts out quite an amount of power to all four wheels.

We're not talking about road race cars running at 7000 RPM constantly.

Having a 500 WHP street car is easily doable, even in one that's as light as a Fiero. There are plenty of Fieros rolling around, with 500+ WHP, and on the street. There are plenty of non-Fieros with as much WHP and in the 2500-3300 lbs weight range, too.

So stop trolling and trying to piss on someone else's thread when they want to do the same.
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Report this Post06-30-2016 03:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
500whp is definitely streetable.... Especially in certain mid engine cars...
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Report this Post06-30-2016 04:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The limit is how much you can put to the ground.

1,.000 HP means little if you can not put it down. This car holds no tractions systems and or engine management systems so the limits are most the tires and suspension.

Once you get over 400 HP it will be up to how sticky the tires are and how the driver manages the throttle.

Big number do not always mean much if you can not use all the power.
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Report this Post06-30-2016 04:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I suppose time slips prove things.
If you are into racing. Otherwise having fun spinning tires too.
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Report this Post06-30-2016 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So far this thread has been both educational and entertaining !!!

However guys as I said in the first post, I am shooting for the full 1000hp and EVEN IF, I had it setup to go that high, all you have to do is let up on the throttle a little bit. 10,000hp could be street-able if you only used 1% of your available power. I am not so naive that I think a set of 225 Z rated all season radials would handle even a 400hp engine at WOT, especially since I live in an area that gets rain nearly 10 months out of the year. One of the reasons I have a simple boost controller on the dash, is I will be able to dial the boost down while sitting at a stoplight if I want. If I get 500hp on 94oct pump gas I will be really happy. Hell even 400hp would keep things interesting. Although I do LOVE drag racing, having the ability to quickly redline 5th gear on the highway is what will give the thrill/chill I am looking for. 150mph at redline in a car that wants to KILL YOU, is going to be one hell of a good feeling for me.

Now back to the topic at hand, those of you with the LS or LQ motors did you do a rear sway bar with wider rear tires? When I ran my smaller V6 (the 2.9 high comp motor, with NOS) I was plagued with wheel hop, I ran 215/50/16 in the front and 225 or 245 /50/16 in the rear. I hated blowing runs at the track as it was not often I had a chance to run. Running a sway bar on the rear was suggested, I did it with rubber bushings, and it almost eliminated it, then went to hard poly bushings, with extra washers to make them near solid, and in all but the most extreme situations, I was getting even consistent launches usually getting both tires to spin equally. I have a 1.25" front bar to go on and a 1" rear bar to go on the back. So I am hoping it will keep the car stable.

It sounds like I should pull my Wire Feed welder out of storage and get some practice boxing / re-enforcing things. (or at the very least tacking things so they can be taken to a real welder.

I am loving all the info from everyone, so please keep firing it away.

------------------
857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT , 5spd Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with a Turbo.

For Sale $4000, Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front,

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Report this Post06-30-2016 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Capt Fiero:

150mph at redline in a car that wants to KILL YOU, is going to be one hell of a good feeling for me.


Do Lisa and the kids have the same "feeling" about this?

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-30-2016).]

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Report this Post06-30-2016 09:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Lisa's fine with it, she is even helping me with the build.
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Report this Post07-01-2016 08:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I need someone to decode this info for me, this was sent by the Turbo company.

68mm compressor wheel, with 74mm turbine wheel and a t-4 .88 housing

I did some more digging on the engine and its actually heaver than I thought at 500lbs full dress, (with Power Steering / AC and all the extra's) I have a feeling installed weight in the Fiero will be closer to 420lbs)

Next question, how many people are using some form of Roll Control on their car. I almost bought the Hurst version today, it was actually fairly cheap, electric line lock solenoids with relay's and wiring was only $125 CDN. (about $100 USD) If I do move to a sticky tire, it would be great for heating them up at the track. Yes I do know that Radial tires don't need to be heated, just dusted off at the line.

I am just concerned with wide or sticky tires out back, locking the front wheels will just end up pushing and possibly flat spotting the tires. I don't "plan" to do parking lot smoke shows, but every now and again, my juvenile side does sneak out.

P.S. stay tuned, I'll be posting a teaser pic of how the setup "was" installed previously on the ZZ 383.

------------------
857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT , 5spd Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with a Turbo.

For Sale $4000, Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front,

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Report this Post07-01-2016 09:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Capt Fiero:
I did some more digging on the engine and its actually heaver than I thought at 500lbs full dress, (with Power Steering / AC and all the extra's) I have a feeling installed weight in the Fiero will be closer to 420lbs)


Pretty sure it's more like 550-570. The aluminum engines are at almost 500 in full production dress with manual flywheel. The iron block weighs a fair bit more than that, or more depending on year, as the early Gen III truck engines had iron heads. Heck my LS4 had a shipping weight of like 525 lbs. The palette it was strapped to sure didn't weight 100 lbs.

You also need to consider the weight of the turbo and all the extra equipment to support it. There's a reason the new Z06 weighs almost 3600 lbs instead of 3200, despite the aluminum space frame and magnesium cradle.

However, you also won't be using most of the accessory drive from the truck engine, in a Fiero. The alternator bracket is big, bulky, and heavy. You'll probably be going to a remote electric water pump (this is what Archie's kit uses), as the truck pump is too big, and the ports are on the wrong side. The stock exhaust manifolds are big bulky cast iron pieces. You'll probably want to make some simple logs similar to the stock Fiero manifolds, out of some 409 or something, instead, which will save some weight. The truck manifold is a bit heavier than the car manifolds are. You probably won't have the power steering pump mounted in.
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Report this Post07-01-2016 11:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks Dobey, I'll be using Archie's block huger straight down headers, with a custom Y-Pipe that meets under and then feeds UP to the Turbo. In a couple of places, I read the weight was about 50lbs difference between an LS1 and the Aluminum head LQ4. Yes the Iron block is a weight penalty, but its supposed to be a great deal stronger than the actual LS block that it is imitating.




ATTN: THE INSTALLED PICS ARE NOT MY CAR!! The previous car was parted out and I bought all the turbo parts and electronics. It was installed on an 86 Fiero with a GM Performance Parts ZZ383.

The pictures of the individual parts and of the LQ4 engine are ones I snapped recently. The turbo was ran on the Original car for a total of 5hrs at most or about 100miles to the best of my knowledge.

















This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.







Just in case boost needs some help, LOL. (left over from my 4.9)







------------------
857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT , 5spd Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with a Turbo.

For Sale $4000, Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front,

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 07-01-2016).]

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Report this Post07-02-2016 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Capt Fiero:

THE INSTALLED PICS ARE NOT MY CAR!! The previous car was parted out...


That must've been Hugh's stuff, eh? Damn, it was almost criminal all the money he paid to various people to have his car built up... and it never amounted to anything.
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Capt Fiero
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Report this Post07-02-2016 02:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

I suppose time slips prove things.
If you are into racing. Otherwise having fun spinning tires too.


LOL, Having fun is #1 and Time Slips are #2, I won't sacrifice the fun of a stick to have a fast time in an autobox. I also prefer the control of a stick shift for being a Hoonigan.

------------------
857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT , 5spd Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with a Turbo.

For Sale $4000, Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front,

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Report this Post07-02-2016 04:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This question is for the LS Fiero people Archie's kit includes a new front cradle cross member, can anyone explain what that entails. In my mind I am thinking that the old cradle cross beam would be cut out and his installed. Is that right? If that is the case, I guess I would not have to worry about boxing in the forward cradle bits, but would have to replace the entire front section. I'll probably get everything I can boxed, even get the control arms re-enforced. I do have the solid cradle mounts, but I don't think I want to solid mount the control arms, just stay with the good poly I have now. Performance is one thing, but I don't want to chatter out what little teeth I have left.


P.S. for anyone wanting to see ALL the pics I have taken so far of the parts, you can look at them here. Its a lot of photos of part numbers and sizes of each part with serial numbers for reference.

http://captfiero.com/lsgallery

------------------
857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT , 5spd Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with a Turbo.

For Sale $4000, Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front,

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