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Hydraulic Electric Power Steering Pumps by Fiero Vampire
Started on: 01-15-2016 02:27 PM
Replies: 44 (2359 views)
Last post by: Spoon on 02-18-2016 11:00 PM
Fiero Vampire
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Report this Post01-15-2016 02:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero VampireSend a Private Message to Fiero VampireEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've been debating between getting either a WCF Electric Power Steering unit or a F-Body Hydraulic steering rack hooked up to a Electric Hydraulic Pump, I know a few have used an MR2 pump however I came across a 04-05 Mazada 3 Electric Hydraulic Pump on e-bay and was wondering if anyone has used one of these or know if it would work?
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Report this Post01-15-2016 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As long as you have the controller and can wire it up to work in the Fiero, it should work. I see that the Mazda pumps also use a remote reservoir, so you will need to ensure you have that as well.

I don't know if the Mazda pump has the controller built into the assembly, but the later MR2 pumps do.
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Report this Post01-16-2016 10:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm interested in this as well. MR2 pumps seem to be made of gold. Something more common might be more practical.
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Report this Post01-16-2016 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Steven SnyderClick Here to visit Steven Snyder's HomePageClick Here to Email Steven SnyderSend a Private Message to Steven SnyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The Mazda pump is controlled via CAN, and I haven't found any reference material from anyone who has reverse engineered it. You'd be blazing new territory with that pump.
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Report this Post01-16-2016 09:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wonder if a primitive speed-sensitive controller can be cobbled together. Although I don't have the expertise, it doesn't seem like rocket science.
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Report this Post01-18-2016 07:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hnthompsClick Here to Email hnthompsSend a Private Message to hnthompsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I may have some schematic info on the factory experimental factory system controller. If anyone is interested I will take a look when I get home after my extended trip.

Nelson
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Report this Post01-18-2016 08:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nelson... Can you send me a copy of that schematic?
I'm thinking it would not be too difficult to reverse engineer. Or even build something better, with the technology that is now available.
I'm still not sure I can pull it off, but it might be fun.
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Report this Post01-20-2016 10:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LZeitgeistClick Here to Email LZeitgeistSend a Private Message to LZeitgeistEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All Honda S2000's (1999 - 2009) came with Electric Power Steering.

You might see if incorporating that setup is simpler than others done in the past - I'm not sure, just offering an idea.

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1988 Fiero Formula - Automoda convertible
repainted PPG Ferrari 'Giallo Modena' yellow - SOLD 9/5/2015 //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/070673.html
1988 Fiero 4-cyl Coupe - Dad's car, the Indy 'clone' - now enjoyed by my older brother in memory of Dad

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Report this Post01-20-2016 10:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierolukeClick Here to visit fieroluke's HomePageClick Here to Email fierolukeSend a Private Message to fierolukeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hnthomps:

I may have some schematic info on the factory experimental factory system controller. If anyone is interested I will take a look when I get home after my extended trip.

Nelson


I would be interested in that as well!
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Report this Post01-20-2016 11:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CowsPatootClick Here to visit CowsPatoot's HomePageSend a Private Message to CowsPatootEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hnthomps:

I may have some schematic info on the factory experimental factory system controller. If anyone is interested I will take a look when I get home after my extended trip.

Nelson


I would love to have a copy of that for my archives as well. cowspatoot at gmail.com

[This message has been edited by CowsPatoot (edited 01-20-2016).]

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Report this Post01-20-2016 08:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Any info on these pumps? Flow, pressure, current draw, etc?
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Report this Post01-21-2016 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hnthompsClick Here to Email hnthompsSend a Private Message to hnthompsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am out of town for at least a week or more and will look and see what info I actually have on the EHPS . I will scan and send it to the requested people if I can locate the info.

Nelson
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Report this Post01-22-2016 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Any hope that we can figure out some setup that is "bolt-on" for less than the $1500 WCF wants. I'm hoping over the next few years the used parts will become more plentiful in the junkyards. I find the Cobalt/G5 racks in the local yard all the time. What is the critical part, or the part that is not fully figured out yet?

Rob
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Report this Post01-23-2016 01:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:

Any hope that we can figure out some setup that is "bolt-on" for less than the $1500 WCF wants.


A friend of mine, who is a really good fabricator, is going to look into this. I have a Camaro rack that I am going to adapt to my car. It doesn't look too difficult.
We're not in any hurry, but I'll post up progress pics as it happens.
Still need a pump...
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Report this Post01-24-2016 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:

Any hope that we can figure out some setup that is "bolt-on" for less than the $1500 WCF wants. I'm hoping over the next few years the used parts will become more plentiful in the junkyards. I find the Cobalt/G5 racks in the local yard all the time. What is the critical part, or the part that is not fully figured out yet?

Rob


Nothing is not figured out yet.

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/095326.html
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Report this Post01-25-2016 05:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Nothing is not figured out yet.

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/095326.html


Except that this thread is about Hydraulic Electric pumps (and by extension, replacement controllers.)
While the electric power steering is a viable option for some, it's not what I, and most of the other posters to this thread, are interested in doing.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-25-2016).]

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Report this Post01-25-2016 06:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


Except that this thread is about Hydraulic Electric pumps (and by extension, replacement controllers.)
While the electric power steering is a viable option for some, it's not what I, and most of the other posters to this thread, are interested in doing.



Read the original post again. It very clearly mentions the WCF EPS unit as an option.
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Report this Post01-25-2016 10:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'll give you that it was mentioned.
But the thread title and the entire rest of the thread was the hydraulic pump question. Got any leads on a workable pump idea?
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Report this Post01-25-2016 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

I'll give you that it was mentioned.
But the thread title and the entire rest of the thread was the hydraulic pump question. Got any leads on a workable pump idea?


The post I replied to and linked the other thread about the Vue steering, was specifically a question about EPS alternatives to the WCF option.

My first post in this thread, was exactly a suggestion that the MR2 pump is likely going to be easier/cheaper in the longer run. There are several other pumps in the wild, but most are on newer cars, and probably require CAN control via an additional module in the network, as the Mazda apparently does. The new Charger apparently has it, Nissan appears to have used EHPS in some cars, the Ford Focus apparently has it as well, Renault/Citroen/etc… seem to offer some options for those in Europe, and Porsche used EHPS on the 997 cup cars.

The Saturn Astra (rebadged Opel Astra for US market) apparently also had EHPS. I don't know what kind of integration it requires with the bus though. Could be an option.

Another option could be to just use a 12V hydraulic fluid pump that can pump and maintain the needed line pressure, handle the fluid type, and can reach the pressure quickly enough so that it can be cycled on when needed and off when not necessary. Then you could use whatever reservoir mounted wherever, and just run the lines appropriately. I'm not sure if there are any quality generic 12V fluid pumps on the market that fit these needs though.
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Report this Post01-26-2016 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero VampireSend a Private Message to Fiero VampireEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I did find a article over at ecomodder.com where a member claims he was able to use a pump from a TS Astra but other than him stating he was able to get it to work I wasn't able to find any useful details, thought about joining the forum so I could at least message the member and see what information if any I could obtain.
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Report this Post01-26-2016 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
...
My first post in this thread, was exactly a suggestion that the MR2 pump is likely going to be easier/cheaper in the longer run. There are several other pumps in the wild, but most are on newer cars, and probably require CAN control via an additional module in the network, as the Mazda apparently does. The new Charger apparently has it, Nissan appears to have used EHPS in some cars, the Ford Focus apparently has it as well, Renault/Citroen/etc… seem to offer some options for those in Europe, and Porsche used EHPS on the 997 cup cars.

The Saturn Astra (rebadged Opel Astra for US market) apparently also had EHPS. I don't know what kind of integration it requires with the bus though. Could be an option.

Another option could be to just use a 12V hydraulic fluid pump that can pump and maintain the needed line pressure, handle the fluid type, and can reach the pressure quickly enough so that it can be cycled on when needed and off when not necessary. Then you could use whatever reservoir mounted wherever, and just run the lines appropriately. I'm not sure if there are any quality generic 12V fluid pumps on the market that fit these needs though.


Regardless of the CANBUS controller, at the end of the day, they're still fluid pumps. All of them run off of some flavor of 12 VDC.
I have to believe that some sort of controller can be cobbled together, that will react based upon speed. Maybe some sort of PWM (pulse width modulated) signal, for different duty cycles.
That's why I'd like to get hold of the diagrams for the original Fiero controller. I'm pretty sure that an equivalent controller can be built with modern electronics. Something that wouldn't vapor lock if it didn't have a PCM/BCM to talk to.
It may take someone with more experience with industrial electronics to decipher, but I'm betting a controller could be built for under $100 that could control most any motor.

Edit - After a quick look at at the web, I'll drop my cost estimate to < $50.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-26-2016).]

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Report this Post01-28-2016 02:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero VampireSend a Private Message to Fiero VampireEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well I messaged the ecomodder.com poster regarding the TS Astra hydraulic electric power steering setup, this would also be called Opel Astra G / Vauxhall Astra Mark IV, he had switch in the pump in replace of his mechanical pump, it only has 4 wires, Battery +, Battery -, 12 V Ignition and Alternator lamp, and he used a large 100Amp inline fuse for the Battery + wire. This appears to be a more simple setup than the MR2 and properly not as good but may be a cheaper route to go. Here is a link to photos he posted. It still would be nicer to be able to use a more modern pump with a Canbus Controller.
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Report this Post01-28-2016 10:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for that! This may end up being the way I'll do this.
I searched car-part.com and there are several of those pumps near me at $50-65.
I'm curious about the wire that goes to the alternator warning light, but I just started to research it, so I may stumble upon the reason.
The other wires (12V + and - , and switched ignition) are pretty self explanatory.
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Report this Post01-28-2016 10:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Any one come across pressure and flow ratings?
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Report this Post01-28-2016 11:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero VampireSend a Private Message to Fiero VampireEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Raydar I'm not 100% but I believe the reason for the Alternator cable is in case the alternator goes out or voltage drops the pump will shut off to preserve power and prevent damage to the pump.
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Report this Post01-29-2016 02:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero VampireSend a Private Message to Fiero VampireEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Been doing some checking around and I found some information (if correct) that the Astra "H" Mark V Power Steering Pump has also been used in power steering conversion in a Porsche Project, it uses 5 wires 2 on 1 connector and 3 on the other, below is the stated information:
Red - Battery +12V
Brown - Ground
Black - Ignition +12
Blue/White - Alternator dash light (to turn it off if the key is on but car is not running)
brown/white - not required (for diagnostics)
If this information is true, being able to use the Astra "H" / pump would be great at least at first glance, it was called the Saturn Astra here in the states and was made in 2008, however it was made in other countries from 2004–2014.
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Report this Post01-29-2016 06:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Okay... Key on. Engine not running. Pump turns off. Makes perfect sense.

From what I could gather, also, the one to look for is the 2008 Saturn Astra.
That's the one I searched for when I found the ones I mentioned.
Thanks again!
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Report this Post01-29-2016 09:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero VampireSend a Private Message to Fiero VampireEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The one thing that I haven't been able to find out is pressure control, from my understanding the MR2 pump has a screw for pressure control adjustment, I'm not sure about the two Astra pumps.
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Report this Post01-29-2016 11:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fiero Vampire:

The one thing that I haven't been able to find out is pressure control, from my understanding the MR2 pump has a screw for pressure control adjustment, I'm not sure about the two Astra pumps.


The MR2 controller has a VSS input so that it reduces pressure as speed increases, and the pump will be off at highway speeds where it's not necessary to have it on.

It sounds like the Astra pump doesn't have anything like this, and it will always be on when the engine is running, regardless of speed.
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Report this Post01-29-2016 11:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

The MR2 controller has a VSS input so that it reduces pressure as speed increases, and the pump will be off at highway speeds where it's not necessary to have it on.

It sounds like the Astra pump doesn't have anything like this, and it will always be on when the engine is running, regardless of speed.


On the face of it, that doesn't sound so hot, but that's pretty much how every hydraulic PS system works, unless the PCM varies the pressure of the pump. (IIRC, one of the results of my earlier searches described a variable orifice in an engine driven pump, controlled by the PCM.)

[tangent] The author of the thread, linked above, said that the Opel/Saturn pump provided less assist than the engine driven pump that it replaced. Since we have a light front end, in an already light car, I'm thinking it will be worth a try.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-29-2016).]

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Report this Post02-05-2016 06:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpoonSend a Private Message to SpoonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fiero Vampire:

The one thing that I haven't been able to find out is pressure control, from my understanding the MR2 pump has a screw for pressure control adjustment, I'm not sure about the two Astra pumps.


All MR2's don't have the same PS setup. The MR2 Spyder has the PS unit with all the electronics built in and the reservoir as well. There is no adjustment screw for pressure. It's all done with a step type motor. Here's the Spyder made for USA from 2000 to 2005 or so.



Here's the pump.


And it works in the Fiero quite well. Ask me how I know.



Spoon

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Report this Post02-05-2016 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Spoon:


All MR2's don't have the same PS setup. The MR2 Spyder has the PS unit with all the electronics built in and the reservoir as well. There is no adjustment screw for pressure. It's all done with a step type motor. Here's the Spyder made for USA from 2000 to 2005 or so.



Here's the pump.


And it works in the Fiero quite well. Ask me how I know.



Spoon




So what's required to run the electronics that are built in? What inputs are required?
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Report this Post02-05-2016 10:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by doublec4:
So what's required to run the electronics that are built in? What inputs are required?


Switched 12v off the ignition, 50 amp fused 12v and a relay to run the pump, gnd, and a VSS signal. I don't recall what the VSS pulse is on the MR2 pump though.
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Report this Post02-06-2016 12:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SpoonSend a Private Message to SpoonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Pulse ppm for the MR2 Spyder is 4000 ppm same as the Fiero. I picked up the pulse from the vss on the 4 spd muncie. Yellow wire.

Spoon

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Report this Post02-06-2016 10:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Spoon:

Pulse ppm for the MR2 Spyder is 4000 ppm same as the Fiero. I picked up the pulse from the vss on the 4 spd muncie. Yellow wire.

Spoon



Why did you mount the pump in the rear? and how well does it work?

Joe
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Report this Post02-06-2016 11:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Spoon:


All MR2's don't have the same PS setup. The MR2 Spyder has the PS unit with all the electronics built in and the reservoir as well. There is no adjustment screw for pressure. It's all done with a step type motor.
...
And it works in the Fiero quite well. Ask me how I know.



Your installation is the benchmark, as far as I'm concerned, but those pumps are not terribly common, and are quite expensive. ($250-300 on car-part and eBay.)
With that said, it's what I was going to use before I read about the Saturn pump.
All things being equal, the only potential difference with the Saturn pump will be more boost at higher speeds, since it doesn't use a VSS input. This is basically how all of the older engine driven pumps are configured, so I don't view this as a show-stopper.
It's inexpensive enough to try, anyway.

Out of curiosity... have you ever disconnected your VSS input to see if the steering is overboosted at road speeds?
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Patrick
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Report this Post02-06-2016 05:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by motoracer838:

Why did you mount the pump in the rear? and how well does it work?


I was wondering the same thing. To the uninitiated, it would seem to be a huge disadvantage to mount it in the back. What are the reasons to want to mount the pump in the trunk as opposed to up front?
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Report this Post02-06-2016 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Patrick:

I was wondering the same thing. To the uninitiated, it would seem to be a huge disadvantage to mount it in the back. What are the reasons to want to mount the pump in the trunk as opposed to up front?


If converting from an engine-driven pump, then it means not having to make and install new lines, just connecting existing lines.

For a car without pre-existing engine-driven pump, though, I can't think of any good reason to install the EHPS pump in the rear.
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Spoon
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Report this Post02-07-2016 12:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SpoonSend a Private Message to SpoonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'll try to answer all the questions in 1 post, more if needed.
When I decided to go with PS (I'm guessing 5 yrs ago) I knew that one day I might be doing an engine swap and I could just swing the hydraulic lines over to the pump on the N* or 3800 SC.

Also the resources to operate the MR2 pump are already in the back. Battery power, VSS on the 4 spd, adding relays was easier and engine oil pressure was readily available. I tee'd into the oil sender line to operate a low pressure switch (20 psi) so the PS is disengaged electrically unless the engine is running. Just like in a conventional setup. So up front are only the 2 hose connections.

The system works great. Upon starting the enginge "2.8" and hands off the wheel there is no assist. The slightest moment of the wheel and the pump applies maximum assist. Stop turning and the assist will continue for about 10 to 15 seconds and then disengage. Once the car is rolling at any speed it will never disengage completely but will provide 3 levels of assist depending on speed. At highway speeds it feel like the 85 Trans am I use to have.

I've never disconnected the vss so I don't know how it would react under those conditions. These pumps are a bit pricey but I do have 2 spares I picked up over the years just in case.

Paragraph 1 of this post mentions an engine swap and it just so happens I began one just a few months ago. 3800 SC-II. Due to clearance issues I have to go with the Low-Mount alternator so the 3.8 PS pump has to go and I'll be keeping the MR2 pump where its at.


Spoon

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Report this Post02-07-2016 05:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Spoon:

I'll try to answer all the questions in 1 post...


You did a good job. Thanks.

Power steering would be so handy to have when doing multiple consecutive slow sharp turns at autocross.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-07-2016).]

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