Why is this a bad thing? (assuming you already have a Fiero in hand) As an owner of a car you should WANT people to be asking crazy prices, but even more, you REALLY WANT people to be PAYING those crazy prices for a Fiero. If guys are asking $1000, and guys are paying $1000, the Fiero is a $1000 car. If guys are asking $100,000 and guys are PAYING $100,000, that means the Fiero is a $100,000 car. Not that I expect to, but I'd love to have the opportunity to get my money out of my GT.
Keep in mind, these cars have hit antique status (25 yrs).
Bit of a thread derail-- is there some sort of negative stigma with this? I almost NEVER see pics of Fieros on here with antique plates. Is that just a holdover from before they could be tagged as antiques, or are guys intentionally holding out to try to preserve the Fiero's "newness"?
Originally posted by Napoleon_Tanerite: are guys intentionally holding out to try to preserve the Fiero's "newness"?
I did that. I bought the car because I wanted a 'summer driver'....not a parade car....but time marches on. I now have historical plates and put maybe 2000 miles on it a year.
Its all generalizing and guessing, but..who really wants to sell their Fiero? Who could use the money? I think over priced ones are people who would be happy to get that much, when selling for alot less would make them miss the car more. Like most cars many people can look at a car for sale and say "what are they thinking?", But when someone comes along who hasnt seen that particular model with those options in that color and has always wanted one, they may see the price as fair.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-18-2015).]
Originally posted by Napoleon_Tanerite: Bit of a thread derail-- is there some sort of negative stigma with this? I almost NEVER see pics of Fieros on here with antique plates. Is that just a holdover from before they could be tagged as antiques, or are guys intentionally holding out to try to preserve the Fiero's "newness"?
Some states have various laws about antique plates, classic plates (plates from the model year of the car), personalizing plates, and so on.
All three of the LS3 swapped Fieros in our local club here, now have antique plates I think. I just got antique plates for mine as well, though I can't drive it now, because my previous regular plates expired, I don't want to bother with having some random kid driving my car for the state inspection when i get my swap done and can drive the car again, and because my Fiero isn't a daily driver.
I'm slowly working through a total restoration of my car, so almost everything will be "new" on it when it's done, even with the antique plates.
From what I can see Fiero prices vary widely depending on condition and demographics., It appears that the Fieros selling at a good prices are the modified ones. This may be because you can buy one already modified for less than doing the modifications yourself. Still owning a Fiero is a losing proposition. Say you buy a Fiero GT for $1900. By the time you add a thorough tune up, do complete maintenance/fluid changes, dew wipes (they are almost always bad) a set of tires, get the brakes done, get the A/C working, replace the quarter windows, add a low cost paint job, and fix a few things, you are into the car for over double the cost and the value hasn't gone up all that much. When I read of someone buying a $500 Fiero, its usually ends up that they are really buying a $3000 Fiero. Something always goes wrong on a 30+ yr old car.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
From what I can see Fiero prices vary widely depending on condition and demographics., It appears that the Fieros selling at a good prices are the modified ones. This may be because you can buy one already modified for less than doing the modifications yourself. Still owning a Fiero is a losing proposition. Say you buy a Fiero GT for $1900. By the time you add a thorough tune up, do complete maintenance/fluid changes, dew wipes (they are almost always bad) a set of tires, get the brakes done, get the A/C working, replace the quarter windows, add a low cost paint job, and fix a few things, you are into the car for over double the cost and the value hasn't gone up all that much. When I read of someone buying a $500 Fiero, its usually ends up that they are really buying a $3000 Fiero. Something always goes wrong on a 30+ yr old car.
I'm at least $1000 into my Formula. Well, I'm one Ford Taurus +/- a few hundred bucks. I spent $3200 on it originally and in all reality it's still probably only worth that much. My dew wipes still need replaced, A/C doesn't operate, and I am probably in need of new tires. Probably sunroof weather stripping and trunk weather stripping as well. I'm still probably 500 away from having the exterior completed. Then comes the interior. All this being said I don't expect to get any of this money back, I don't even see a near future time I'll be selling the car. I enjoy it too much so if I put money into something I enjoy I really don't care. I'd rather buy a 2000-3000 dollar Fiero and put money into than buying an 8000 dollar Fiero (which is where I see many Formulas with similar mileage to mine are priced at). If you enjoy it it won't matter if you put money into, that's my philosophy at least.
Originally posted by Dylpro: .. I don't expect to get any of this money back, I don't even see a near future time I'll be selling the car. I enjoy it too much so if I put money into something I enjoy I really don't care. .
Exactly people shouldnt expect to get their money back.
Originally posted by 2.5: Exactly people shouldnt expect to get their money back.
There are plenty of things people spend money on and don't get it back. For some reason most people think a lot of things that are investments, which aren't.
Bit of a thread derail-- is there some sort of negative stigma with this (antique status)?
No, but it's not just a matter of having a Fiero that's old enough. Different jurisdictions all have their own requirements. Look over the ones for here in BC.
quote
Does my vehicle qualify?
Your vehicle must be:
at least 30 years old,
maintained as close as possible to its original condition with original parts,
restored to a condition that conforms as nearly as possible to the original manufacturer's specifications,
owned as a collector's item, and
mechanically sound.
Driving restrictions - Special occasions only
Vehicles with vintage plates may only be used for special occasions (for example: exhibitions, parades, car club activities, community events, weddings and graduations). Everyday pleasure driving is not permitted.
I autocross my '88 Formula, so I've lowered it etc... plus among other things I've installed hood vents and changed the style of spoiler on the back. It's no longer conforming "nearly as possible to the original manufacturer's specifications". Doing so would reduce my enjoyment of these cars... so the heck with "vintage" status.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-18-2015).]
I autocross my '88 Formula, so I've lowered it etc... plus among other things I've installed hood vents and changed the style of spoiler on the back. It's no longer conforming "nearly as possible to the original manufacturer's specifications". Doing so would reduce my enjoyment of these cars... so the heck with "vintage" status.
I'm with Pat on this. Could I get away with it? Doubtful. I live in a somewhat small city. I drive my Formula daily. And the cops see me almost daily. I'm pushing my luck enough by not running a front plate, let alone running Historicals.
It shouldn't be. And thats why Fiero prices are super low.
There just aren't many original examples out there that aren't rotted out, kitted, or hacked to pieces with stuff like fiberglass and putty replacing steel.
Those with original, rust free cars, or ones that are fixed correctly and lightly resto-modded should demand higher prices for them. It's the only way the cars will increase in value.
Originally posted by slicknick: It shouldn't be. And thats why Fiero prices are super low.
There just aren't many original examples out there that aren't rotted out, kitted, or hacked to pieces with stuff like fiberglass and putty replacing steel.
Those with original, rust free cars, or ones that are fixed correctly and lightly resto-modded should demand higher prices for them. It's the only way the cars will increase in value.
Even when there are rare examples that are worth what's being asked, the value of those ultra-rare models does not increase the value of all the other models as well. For example, an original 1969 ZL1 Corvette might be worth $100K+ being the only one in existence, but that doesn't increase the value of all C3, or even 1969 model, Corvettes. Rarity, quality, and demand, are what create value. Fieros weren't especially rare, aren't in demand, and do not generally have a reputation of high quality in the public. Even if every $25K Fiero that comes up on eBay or elsewhere sells for the asking price, it's not going to generally increase the value of all Fieros on the market.
It shouldn't be. And thats why Fiero prices are super low.
There just aren't many original examples out there that aren't rotted out, kitted, or hacked to pieces with stuff like fiberglass and putty replacing steel.
Those with original, rust free cars, or ones that are fixed correctly and lightly resto-modded should demand higher prices for them. It's the only way the cars will increase in value.
I'm with Pat on this. Could I get away with it? Doubtful. I live in a somewhat small city. I drive my Formula daily. And the cops see me almost daily. I'm pushing my luck enough by not running a front plate, let alone running Historicals.
Jason, it's not even just a matter of "getting away with it" while driving the car. It's a matter of getting away with it after having an accident... and that's when the shite hits the fan. So many "smart" guys brag that they modified their classic or vintage cars after they got their special plates (and reduced insurance cost), only to discover that their insurance coverage was deemed to be invalid after wrecking their cars. Too bad for them, eh?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-19-2015).]
Jason, it's not even just a matter of "getting away with it" while driving the car. It's a matter of getting away with it after having an accident... and that's when the shite hits the fan. So many "smart" guys brag that they modified their classic or vintage cars after they got their special plates (and reduced insurance cost), only to discover that their insurance coverage was deemed to be invalid after wrecking their cars. Too bad for them, eh?
We have for year suffered pricing due to supply and demand. We have always had many cars in great shape and average demand. Keep in mind many people parked these things and sat on them for years.
Today we still have many cars but most are high mileage and many are in poor condition for a collector. To fix one up to like new condition would cost more than the car is worth so it has enhanced the unrestored cars values. You will continue to see increases in the unrestored low mile models into the future.
With the Fiero keep in mind that the value will always be there for any good stock condition V6 and even modified cars that are documented as to content and quality will also command better pricing.
Now cars in poor condition and hack modified condition will never see much gain until the good condition cars are priced out or just not available.
What I mean on modified cars the ones with rare or classic modifications like the Indy Scoop, IMSA panels. T tops, or other rare and not available options like the louvered window etc. Even the leather MR Mikes Leather Seats should add value as long as they are not some colors that look like someone threw up Crayola's in the car.
As for V8 and 3800 SC swaps it will depend on the quality of the swap. It will need to be documented what all was done, used and what mods were made. Also receipts for what was done will help. This is how you show a good swap from a hack swap to a prospective buyer. He wants to know what was done and to what level.
Now cars in poor condition and hack modified condition will never see much gain until the good condition cars are priced out or just not available.
What I mean on modified cars the ones with rare or classic modifications like the Indy Scoop, IMSA panels. T tops, or other rare and not available options like the louvered window etc. Even the leather MR Mikes Leather Seats should add value as long as they are not some colors that look like someone threw up Crayola's in the car.
As for V8 and 3800 SC swaps it will depend on the quality of the swap. It will need to be documented what all was done, used and what mods were made. Also receipts for what was done will help. This is how you show a good swap from a hack swap to a prospective buyer. He wants to know what was done and to what level.
Well, ultimately, people on this forum encourage a lot of this poor work and this is a pretty big forum. It's hard to put this nicely, but there's a lot of encouragement on projects where there should be some rejection. How many 3800 swaps are out there that look like someone dropped it in right from the donor and just taped the two wire harnesses together? And there are people here that are like, sweet job! If we keep treating the Fiero as a junky car, it will always be considered a junky car.
[This message has been edited by slicknick (edited 11-19-2015).]
Well, ultimately, people on this forum encourage a lot of this poor work and this is a pretty big forum. It's hard to put this nicely, but there's a lot of encouragement on projects where there should be some rejection. How many 3800 swaps are out there that look like someone dropped it in right from the donor and just taped the two wire harnesses together? And there are people here that are like, sweet job! If we keep treating the Fiero as a junky car, it will always be considered a junky car.
Not to mention poor engine choices even when done correctly.
Nothing will scare away a buyer and de-value a vehicle more by installing a drivetrain with a history of issues and unrealiability.
Not to mention poor engine choices even when done correctly.
Nothing will scare away a buyer and de-value a vehicle more by installing a drivetrain with a history of issues and unrealiability.
Seriously? What is with the relentless bagging on that guys car? Enough people do the N* swap to justify it as a pretty damn good engine to use, you're just making yourself seem ignorant at this point pal.
Well, ultimately, people on this forum encourage a lot of this poor work and this is a pretty big forum. It's hard to put this nicely, but there's a lot of encouragement on projects where there should be some rejection. How many 3800 swaps are out there that look like someone dropped it in right from the donor and just taped the two wire harnesses together? And there are people here that are like, sweet job! If we keep treating the Fiero as a junky car, it will always be considered a junky car.
I saw this when I was working on my paint job. I was getting constant pressure to cut corners and cheap out. It was as if guys couldn't grasp my desire to do it right, and spend the proper money to do so.
Seriously? What is with the relentless bagging on that guys car? Enough people do the N* swap to justify it as a pretty damn good engine to use, you're just making yourself seem ignorant at this point pal.
Grow up, wise up & wake up
My statement is general and factual.
Quad 4's, Brazillian 2.0's and Junkstars all seem to be popular swaps of GM's worst engines ever produced. The only one missing is the Cadillac HT4100.
Going through all the trouble to put one in a Fiero is like being a suicide bomber and a good way to de-value a Fiero.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 11-20-2015).]
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT: Grow up, wise up & wake up
My statement is general and factual.
Quad 4's, Brazillian 2.0's and Junkstars all seem to be popular swaps of GM's worst engines ever produced. The only one missing is the Cadillac HT4100.
Going through all the trouble to put one in a Fiero is like being a suicide bomber and a good way to de-value a Fiero.
If you're going to tell people to grow up, wise up, and wake up, you should probable consume your own advice before regurgitating it.
General statement? Yes. Factual? Not exactly.
Quad 4s are fine. They are certainly no worse than the stock engines in the Fiero. Neither are the Sunbird 2.0 turbo motors (which I presume is what you mean by Brazillian, though it's an Opel engine). The main issue with the Northstars was the head bolt issue, which is easily enough fixed, especially when you've already got the engine out and are putting it into a Fiero.
Maybe we should complain about all the issues with the 3800 too? Or the stock Duke and 2.8? Or the 3.4 out of the Camaro? Pretty much every engine family in the world has some problem or another, that when not fixed properly and at an appropriate time, is going to result in a pile of scrap metal. Especially if you just pull an engine of unknown condition from a scrap yard, and shove it in a car.
Interference fit 3 piece Northstar blocks pour out oil, head bolts into aluminum threads pull out, heads crack, blocks crack. Why on earth would anyone be foolish enough to spend all that money and time to put a ticking time bomb in their car is beyond me.
Even GM stopped using them.
And yes, 3800's are not the greatest platform either but the later units are much better than the earlier ones.
As far as the 2.0 not being Brazilian:
quote
The LT3 (RPO code) or C20GET is a turbocharged version produced in Brazil for the North American market. It featured brilliant red powder coating on the camshaft cover, intake manifold and boost pipe. And was equipped with a water-cooled Garrett T-25 turbocharger; however it did not utilize an intercooler. Maximum boost at WOT was 9 psi (62 kPa).
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 11-20-2015).]
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT: Interference fit 3 piece Northstar blocks pour out oil, head bolts into aluminum threads pull out, heads crack, blocks crack. Why on earth would anyone be foolish enough to spend all that money and time to put a ticking time bomb in their car is beyond me.
Even GM stopped using them.
And yes, 3800's are not the greatest platform either but the later units are much better than the earlier ones.
As far as the 2.0 not being Brazilian:
The SBC is a well known oil consumer too, and had its fair share of problems over the years. I guess it's also junk since GM stopped using them. I guess the 3800 is too. GM stopped using them.
There's nothing generally wrong with aluminum threads. Yes, the earlier Northstar had problems with it, due to the way it was manufactured, but it was easily fixed by a timesert as directed by a TSB, and later blocks didn't have this problem.
Yes, you quoted Wikipedia. Good for you. Yes, GM produces many things in Brazil. So do Ford and Daimler-Chrysler. But you were clearly using "Brazilian 2.0" in a derogatory manner, insinuating that since it is produce there it is somehow a crappy engine, despite the fact that Family II engines are still widely used and produced in Brazil.
If you don't want to spend money on a ticking time bomb, why are you even on this forum? Everyone knows Fieros are ticking time bomb death fire traps. Buying a Fiero is spending money on a ticking time bomb.
Yeah, there are some real hack job swaps rolling around, but simply calling a swap you know nothing about a ticking suicide time bomb, simply because of engine choice, is only flaunting your ignorance.
The SBC is a well known oil consumer too, and had its fair share of problems over the years. I guess it's also junk since GM stopped using them. I guess the 3800 is too. GM stopped using them.
There's nothing generally wrong with aluminum threads. Yes, the earlier Northstar had problems with it, due to the way it was manufactured, but it was easily fixed by a timesert as directed by a TSB, and later blocks didn't have this problem.
Yes, you quoted Wikipedia. Good for you. Yes, GM produces many things in Brazil. So do Ford and Daimler-Chrysler. But you were clearly using "Brazilian 2.0" in a derogatory manner, insinuating that since it is produce there it is somehow a crappy engine, despite the fact that Family II engines are still widely used and produced in Brazil.
If you don't want to spend money on a ticking time bomb, why are you even on this forum? Everyone knows Fieros are ticking time bomb death fire traps. Buying a Fiero is spending money on a ticking time bomb.
Yeah, there are some real hack job swaps rolling around, but simply calling a swap you know nothing about a ticking suicide time bomb, simply because of engine choice, is only flaunting your ignorance.
Ignorance flaunting would be your past several posts defending scrap and bolsters what others have said about bringing down a brand/model's value.
You know zero about me but I can safely bet my final dollar that I've been around Pontiacs and cars in general longer than you've had your driver's license.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 11-20-2015).]
Well for the most part, we're talking about cars that are not destined to be daily drivers anymore. I would think any oddball motor would have a good life in these semi-retirement situations.
I would absolutely choose a quad-4 or a N* for looks alone. They'll never come close to the beating they would've had in a production car.
Fiero's are heavy, but they're not Cadillac heavy.
[This message has been edited by slicknick (edited 11-20-2015).]
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT: Ignorance flaunting would be your past several posts defending scrap and bolsters what others have said about bringing down a brand/model's value.
You know zero about me but I can safely bet my final dollar that I've been around Pontiacs and cars in general longer than you've had your driver's license.
Ah, so instead of talking about the issue, you then go decide to make personal attacks that have nothing to do with anything?
This however, doesn't change the facts. People installing engines you don't like, in some car, doesn't have anything to do with the general value of the model line. The fact is you made broad derogatory comments about certain engines, which have nothing to do with the general valuation of the Fiero. The statements you made were rebuked, and rather than accept that there are plenty of quality examples of the engines you so deride, you would rather instead reply with such inflammatory comments by attempting to attack the character of those whom offer dissent to your opinions.
Thunderstruck; Maybe you've been around cars long we than others here. I'll guarantee you have been longer than myself, I'm seventeen. I'm also a seventeen year old who is able to treat others with respect and courtesy along with being able to voice my own opinion without having to resort to personal attacks. I'm sure you know more than me about engines, cars, and Fieros in general, but at least even at my age I know how to speak to other human beings. Your attitude and arrogance is more reflective of a 12 year, and even I at seventeen can tell you, no matter how much you may know about cars, no one will care about your opinion if you go about cramming it down people's throats in the way you do. Good day.
Ah, so instead of talking about the issue, you then go decide to make personal attacks that have nothing to do with anything?
This however, doesn't change the facts. People installing engines you don't like, in some car, doesn't have anything to do with the general value of the model line. The fact is you made broad derogatory comments about certain engines, which have nothing to do with the general valuation of the Fiero. The statements you made were rebuked, and rather than accept that there are plenty of quality examples of the engines you so deride, you would rather instead reply with such inflammatory comments by attempting to attack the character of those whom offer dissent to your opinions.
Indeed. Grow up, wise up, and wake up.
Re-read my post.
Did you happen to notice how I quoted you. Who has been "attacking" who?
You have done a good job of trolling my posts reguarding POS engines but now I see how this all works..........
You post and defend how great something is with no documentation or proof and everyone is to believe it because you said it.
I post factual input with links to the contrary to what you say.
You start the name calling and say that I am the one calling you names.
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT: Re-read my post.
Did you happen to notice how I quoted you. Who has been "attacking" who?
You have done a good job of trolling my posts reguarding POS engines but now I see how this all works..........
You post and defend how great something is with no documentation or proof and everyone is to believe it because you said it.
I post factual input with links to the contrary to what you say.
You start the name calling and say that I am the one calling you names.
Very good sir... Carry on.
Again, you need to take your own advice, before you wish to bestow it upon the world at large. Or do I have to go re-quote all of your previous posts to point out how you are calling not only people, but product lines, derogatory names.
I did nothing to defend "how great" these engines are. However, they are indeed no worse, nor necessarily better, than most any other engines that have ever been produced by GM or any of its associates, in terms of maintenance and reliability.
Stop being so dramatic. And stop trying to fling your faeces around and then play the victim when you get called on it. The issues with the engines you hate so much, are nowhere near as bad as you are making them out to be, and they have no bearing on the general valuation of Fieros. And you're not a victim.
Maybe you've been around cars long we than others here. I'll guarantee you have been longer than myself, I'm seventeen. I'm also a seventeen year old who is able to treat others with respect and courtesy along with being able to voice my own opinion without having to resort to personal attacks. I'm sure you know more than me about engines, cars, and Fieros in general, but at least even at my age I know how to speak to other human beings. Your attitude and arrogance is more reflective of a 12 year, and even I at seventeen can tell you, no matter how much you may know about cars, no one will care about your opinion if you go about cramming it down people's throats in the way you do. Good day.
Thunderstruck; Maybe you've been around cars long we than others here. I'll guarantee you have been longer than myself, I'm seventeen. I'm also a seventeen year old who is able to treat others with respect and courtesy along with being able to voice my own opinion without having to resort to personal attacks. I'm sure you know more than me about engines, cars, and Fieros in general, but at least even at my age I know how to speak to other human beings. Your attitude and arrogance is more reflective of a 12 year, and even I at seventeen can tell you, no matter how much you may know about cars, no one will care about your opinion if you go about cramming it down people's throats in the way you do. Good day.
