Any suggestions for better stopping power when depressing the brake peddle.? I thought I heard of up grades for larger rotors and even using a braking master cylinder off of a S-10 truck ? This would be one up grade that I would love. The comments I heard and jotted down are in the back of my head. Any help with this one ? Don't know where I heard the comments before, but help is appreciated again. Thanks.
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Originally posted by seajai: It was my understanding that the booster swap worked best with the 88 braking system.
Ah, Ok. I was not aware of that. I can say that it made a huge difference on my 86.
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Originally posted by Csjag: With your banjo it will just be a matter of buying the S-10 booster and putting it in the car right?
My personal thoughts are If you are looking for an almost plug-n-play solution, the booster that sardonyx247 offers is it. No having to drill out rivets and remove the mount from your Fiero booster and bolt it on the new one. Also sardonyx's uses the factory OEM Fiero banjo, and not a part screwed onto the S-10 booster to extend the length of it's banjo.
BEFORE performing ANY 'upgrade' to the braking system, be sure that all of the brake system components are in proper working order and properly adjusted. Glazed pads, inoperative e-brake, sticky caliper, deteriorated hoses, etc., will cause problems with braking performance.
A note to all posters about the S-10 booster. When a Forum member mentions the need for better brakes, the FIRST THING that should be posted is NOT 'You need a S-10 booster'. IT SHOULD BE TO CHECK OUT THE SYSTEM TO ENSURE PROPER WORKING ORDER. Anything else is bad advice and is irresponsible. Only after verifying system integrity should upgrades be suggested, whether it be a booster, rotors or other approaches.
A note to all posters about the S-10 booster. When a Forum member mentions the need for better brakes, the FIRST THING that should be posted is NOT 'You need a S-10 booster'. IT SHOULD BE TO CHECK OUT THE SYSTEM TO ENSURE PROPER WORKING ORDER. Anything else is bad advice and is irresponsible. Only after verifying system integrity should upgrades be suggested, whether it be a booster, rotors or other approaches.
A note to all posters about the S-10 booster. When a Forum member mentions the need for better brakes, the FIRST THING that should be posted is NOT 'You need a S-10 booster'. IT SHOULD BE TO CHECK OUT THE SYSTEM TO ENSURE PROPER WORKING ORDER. Anything else is bad advice and is irresponsible. Only after verifying system integrity should upgrades be suggested, whether it be a booster, rotors or other approaches.
This! +1
The 88 stock system is good even by today's standards....
Did the booster on my 88 a few years ago. Rotors and pads were new, hoses were in good shape. I'm running larger wheels and tires and the brakes felt pretty good to stat with. Just the booster swap alone made a very noticeable difference in brake feel and stopping distance. Added braided hoses too which seemed to give me a firmer pedal. The better brakes have saved my butt from my heavy right foot on more than a few occasions. I would agree that it's important to make sure everything else is up to par before just sticking in a bigger booster. But having driven one before and after I would definitely say it's a worth while upgrade.
I've got the Seville/lebaron brakes which almost put me through the windshield, wonder if the S-10 would put me a couple inches closer? Did the S10 in the last car and it was great. agree though all systems need to be in good shape to get the most out of the brakes.
Originally posted by olejoedad: BEFORE performing ANY 'upgrade' to the braking system, be sure that all of the brake system components are in proper working order and properly adjusted. Glazed pads, inoperative e-brake, sticky caliper, deteriorated hoses, etc., will cause problems with braking performance.
A note to all posters about the S-10 booster. When a Forum member mentions the need for better brakes, the FIRST THING that should be posted is NOT 'You need a S-10 booster'. IT SHOULD BE TO CHECK OUT THE SYSTEM TO ENSURE PROPER WORKING ORDER. Anything else is bad advice and is irresponsible. Only after verifying system integrity should upgrades be suggested, whether it be a booster, rotors or other approaches.
Plus many saying big booster is best have Booster problems in the first place... Some examples: Blocked Vac line filter in the engine bay vac line blocked or leaking Dirt stuffed or Bad check valve at vac line attaches to booster Dirt/corrosion and/or Leaking problem in the booster and the control valve. 1 of 2 diaphragms is Dead in the booster. Dual Diaphragm Booster is made for this type of failure. Booster will still try to work but you get heavier brake pedal and stopping distances are noticeably longer.
Braking distances in the OM are a rough guide of brake performance. Better tires, shocks, struts, etc can shorten OE stopping distance quit a bit. Crap parts can make the distances longer. GM used cheap suspension parts and tires to make Fiero. GT etc, w/ and w/o WS6, does upgrade the tires but get same crap shock and struts.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Plus many saying big booster is best have Booster problems in the first place... Some examples: Blocked Vac line filter in the engine bay vac line blocked or leaking Dirt stuffed or Bad check valve at vac line attaches to booster
This argument is getting really old.... As any mechanic would know, none of the listed above items would change when upgrading to the S-10 booster. Those problems would still be there.
Is it really that hard for people to understand that the larger booster can create the same pressure on the calipers with less force on the pedal? It's really that simple! Nothing more, nothing less. Installing the new booster will not make your car stop using fairy dust and magic. It will not overcome bad calipers, pads, or vacuum leaks. It just applies the SAME force to the calipers, while using LESS force on the brake pedal.
I have driven around 20 different Fiero's. I can speak from personal experience what the difference feels like comparing stock with the upgraded booster. Many nay-sayers have never set foot in a car that has the booster installed. I have driven everything from prototypes, daily drivers, complete restorations, show cars.... Fieros ranging in years form 84's to 88's. I can personally say that the brakes in my Fiero, with the S-10 booster feel better than any of the other Fieros with stock brakes that I have driven. Will they stop my Fiero faster? NO. Just that... NO. It has the same tires, suspension and other parts as it did before. It just means I do not have to stand up on the pedal to get the same amount of braking power that I do now with around half the force pushing on the brake pedal.
The bottom line, when I started, I had normal 1986 Fiero brakes. New calipers and pads all around. They would stop the car, just like any other Fiero I have driven, just needing quite a bit of force on the pedal. The booster, calipers, lines and filters were all in great shape. Again, stock brakes, worked perfectly like just that, stock brakes. I would equate the stock Fiero brakes to being almost like manual brakes when you really needed to do a fast hard stop, as LOTS of pedal pressure is required.
After installing the booster, It's the same brakes, but now far less pedal force is needed to stop the car (to me it almost feels like half the force needed). Thus a more modern feeling and responsive braking system.
I can go as far to say, that if I has measured my stopping distance before I installed the S-10 booster and again after it was installed, it would be the same, or at least VERY close. I just simply do not have to push as hard on the brake pedal to stop now.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-04-2015).]
I've been around Fiero's for over 20 years now. Back when 87's were still very new yet. The brakes suck thing (84-87) has been an ongoing topic from way back. Most just do not like how they feel. They feel inadequate to many.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
I've been around Fiero's for over 20 years now. Back when 87's were still very new yet. The brakes suck thing (84-87) has been an ongoing topic from way back. Most just do not like how they feel. They feel inadequate to many.
Aren't they basically Chevette brakes on the front?
Thanks for all of the responses. This is my 4th Fiero. Yes the brakes need the modern day feel. I don't want to stand on the pedal, and at the other end of the action, the small disc's don't have to suffer. It would be nice to have a little larger disc's too. The pistons in the caliper's would probably still be fine.
Originally posted by JohnWPB: This argument is getting really old.... As any mechanic would know, none of the listed above items would change when upgrading to the S-10 booster. Those problems would still be there.
Believe whatever you what...
"They would stop the car, just like any other Fiero I have driven, just needing quite a bit of force on the pedal." I've driven many cars and trucks. I had several Ford w/o PB too. I've seen many PB cars with same brake effort as my Fiero. Some are a bit more. A few others are less.
"The booster, calipers, lines and filters were all in great shape." Really? Booster Condition or Failure isn't easy to see. A Dead Booster can look Perfect on the outside. Dead Diaphragm likely won't show up in an X-ray. All that needs is a pin hole or two to kill a diaphragm. Dirt stuck in the control valve is easy to miss because that is inside the booster.
"I would equate the stock Fiero brakes to being almost like manual brakes when you really needed to do a fast hard stop, as LOTS of pedal pressure is required." This is a common symptom/complaint of booster problems. Even a Plugged filter can cause this. High Effort is because Booster problems like can't pump down fast enough to keep up. High Effort often mean you have to compress booster spring and MC to get brake pressure or have 1 dieing/dead diaphragm. Worse, if you race then often engine can't pump down the booster because you at high throttle most times. Many cars use electric vac pumps for this and other reasons. (Many cam setups causes vacuum issues.) Just have the filter could reduce air flow enough to be problems for racing. (GM deleted the Booster Filter in 87.)
----- Blocked Vac line filter in the engine bay vac line blocked or leaking Most times do not mean close to 100% blocking or leaking. (Big leaks screws up engine Idle or even car won't start.) Block filter, pinch hose, etc, can affect recover time between using brake pedal because can affects time for engine to suck down the booster volume. Fast "pump down" is why booster needs ~1/2" diam pipe/hose. Added Booster "Air" Volume in normal driving could help hiding pluming issues.
Dirt stuffed or Bad check valve at vac line attaches to booster The valve from sardonyx247's first page... Most times Check valve issues go away w/ old booster because New and Rebuilt Boosters often have New check valve. Companies know that the old valves can wear out, etc. Just look at Rock Auto, AZ, NAPA, etc. Dieing/dirty valve then booster have trouble keep enough vacuum when engine vacuum is close to 0" hg when you hit the gas. (Same problem for other devices using Vacuum to operate, like cruise control, w/ iffy check valves.) Keeping vacuum in the booster is important because that's the booster's "backup"/reserve vacuum. Is why most Stock Vac Boosters on any vehicle can use the brakes 2 to 4 times when engine dies on the road.
As I've said in the past... I don't hate the big booster itself. What should disturb people is many install it as a band-aid fix and leave major problems untouched.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 02-05-2015).]
Originally posted by Northwoods2: Thanks for all of the responses. This is my 4th Fiero. Yes the brakes need the modern day feel. I don't want to stand on the pedal, and at the other end of the action, the small disc's don't have to suffer. It would be nice to have a little larger disc's too. The pistons in the caliper's would probably still be fine.
"I don't want to stand on the pedal" means something is wrong. Parts could be bad, like dieing booster or Iffy calipers. Parts could be wrong application... Example, Some use "Race" pads for street use. Some race pads don't get hot enough to work. Pads need to reach X temp to work. X temp directly related to pad formula.
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Originally posted by Rodney: I've been around Fiero's for over 20 years now. Back when 87's were still very new yet. The brakes suck thing (84-87) has been an ongoing topic from way back. Most just do not like how they feel. They feel inadequate to many.
That is no surprise. Many want cheapest "fix" and little work as possible. Restoring my 87 brakes and using current ceramic pads (Wagner TQ), SAE J1401 hoses, etc isn't cheap. That job cost me $400+ in parts alone. With OE booster and left foot gas pedal mod, takes little pedal effort to stop the car, even in panic stops.
Has anyone replaced the old booster with a new standard booster and if so can they report back? It does make sense to me that a 30 year old booster may be worn out.
Originally posted by Csjag: Has anyone replaced the old booster with a new standard booster and if so can they report back? It does make sense to me that a 30 year old booster may be worn out.
Q1... Not me. Q2... Yes, Can and Does happen but always check vac line, check valve and filter is the car has one. (Again GM Deleted the filter for Fiero starting in 87 model year)
FSM is good for booster "service" that even dealers don't use. Safer and easier for them just replace the whole thing. Charts etc covers "Excessive Brake Pedal Effort" but doesn't give a good definition of Excessive means beside using two feet to work. Not allot of data, like testing specs, for this item at most sites.
I'm looking at FMVSS 105 (Standard active when Fiero was made) right now to see if they list "normal" pedal effort but is hard to read and many specs are burring in SAE docs. So far I only find says:
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S6.13 Control forces. Unless otherwise specified, the force applied to a brake control is not less than 15 lb and not more than 150 lb.
If that mean Pedal Force, I think so, then is useless for testing here to say Excessive means. Does mean that if big booster needs less than 15 lb to activate the brake... the booster would fail FMVSS testing used in Fiero. The "not less than 15 lb" is to prevent pedal dragging drivers for dragging the brake pads/shoes. Brake Lights on is very anoiding but often not a safety problem because of that spec.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 02-05-2015).]
I know the fiero was a parts bin car.. g.m. used as much parts as they could from other cars to keep cost down. The front end is chevette from what I've read, and the rear is Pontiac 6000, What vehicle bin did they raid for the stock booster, and the master..?? Being the car was engineered more as a computer car, than a sports car.. they most likely didn't science out the system.. I'm having a hard time believing the stock booster is the cause of the need to stand on the pedal feeling.. and the s-10 booster just masking the true problem.. the master having the wrong bore size, and/or pedal leverage built into the pedal box assembly, or lack of it.. I know I can't lock up the brakes on my Indy.. but it is 30+years old.. and with no history of what is on it (pads, age, rubber hoses,etc) I can't blame the oem system.. I do know that, brake pads need to de-gas in use, and solid rotors hold heat more than vented, making the pads hotter faster and longer, it's all about surface area, and a balance of cooling and heat.. I do know on other cars I've had with solid rotors, grooving the pads, made a difference, but also took some of the pads "area" away from contact of the rotor.. I may just because, drill a set of rotors, or groove them.. g.m. even grooved full sized vented rotors, because of the gas from pads.. sorry for the somewhat hyjack
I would suspect that a lot of the poor brake performance complaints are due to rear brakes out of adjustment from not using the e brake on a regular basis. It does make a difference when the rear calipers also contribute .......
I would suspect that a lot of the poor brake performance complaints are due to rear brakes out of adjustment from not using the e brake on a regular basis. It does make a difference when the rear calipers also contribute .......
I would suspect that a lot of the poor brake performance complaints are due to rear brakes out of adjustment from not using the e brake on a regular basis. It does make a difference when the rear calipers also contribute .......
I'm trying to wrap my head around that, but the hyd part of the system isn't effected by the e brake , the pads and piston(s) doesn't back off from the rotor, like a drum set up does. not using the e brake should only effect the mechanical e brake not the fluid hyd side of it..
Originally posted by E.Furgal: I'm trying to wrap my head around that, but the hyd part of the system isn't effected by the e brake , the pads and piston(s) doesn't back off from the rotor, like a drum set up does. not using the e brake should only effect the mechanical e brake not the fluid hyd side of it..
Parking brakes should self-adjust but often don't. GM said the rear disk brakes require periodic use of the hand brake to maintain proper adjustment. I'm not going to try to explain why. It's just the way they are built. (It's essentially a design problem.)
Originally posted by Gall757: See the Ogre's Cave...Rear Brakes Service
Parking brakes should self-adjust but often don't. GM said the rear disk brakes require periodic use of the hand brake to maintain proper adjustment. I'm not going to try to explain why. It's just the way they are built. (It's essentially a design problem.)
To expand: (Short version) That BS Comes from Recall NHTSA # 91V055000 GM # 86-C-28, 88-5-19A and others and Recall applies only to Manual Trans on 82-86 Camaro, 84-86 Fiero, 82-86 Firebird. This Recall was after Recall All Fiero for "NON-COLLISION ENGINE COMPARTMENT FIRES" See my Cave, Do You Recall? First 2 digits of NHTSA/GM # is year. GM# 88-5-19A applies to 82-88 Firebird, 84-87 Fiero, 83-88 6000 STE w/ Auto trans but is not part of NHTSA recall.
Rear brakes won't meet FMVSS 105 rules if you need to use P-bake to adjust.
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S5. Requirements. S5.1 Service brake systems. Each vehicle shall be equipped with a service brake system acting on all wheels. Wear of the service brake shall be compensated for by means of a system of automatic adjustment. ...
But GM blamed Owners for not using P-brakes because you find more TSB, like GM 88-5-10 "PARK BRAKE SERVICE ADJUSTMENT PROCEDURE," and other Doc's from GM and Aftermarket w/ Manual adjustments that fuels the Myth.
Using P-brakes or any other manually adjustment might help but often is useless. I used My method for years because using P-brake didn't help. Had to adjust every year... Even many rebuild calipers have same problems or worse. Only thing help was installing Recall Piston kit. (Kits are gone.) Changes you can see, The new piston looses yellow plug, moves Vent hole, and has "Black Oxide" coating. Piston has internal changes too.
Sorry I haven't put the info in my cave... I keep forgetting to update the two pages.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 02-06-2015).]
A poorly adjusted rear parking brake (or bad adjuster assembly) will allow the caliper piston and therefore the rear brake pads to find their resting position too far from the rotor surface. This then requires more pedal travel to move the pads the extra distance. This makes for a soft pedal with excessive travel. While the pedal is traveling excessively, the front brakes are starting to activate and the car starts to slow with minimal rear braking.
Pedal firmness is largely a function of rear brakes... if the pedal is soft, something normally isn't right with the rear brakes.
Originally posted by fieroguru: A poorly adjusted rear parking brake (or bad adjuster assembly) will allow the caliper piston and therefore the rear brake pads to find their resting position too far from the rotor surface. This then requires more pedal travel to move the pads the extra distance. This makes for a soft pedal with excessive travel. While the pedal is traveling excessively, the front brakes are starting to activate and the car starts to slow with minimal rear braking.
Pedal firmness is largely a function of rear brakes... if the pedal is soft, {ogre edit}or you have low pedal,{edit edit} something normally isn't right with the rear brakes.
Basically Correct. Worse case the pistons will freeze totally in the bore or more likely blow the back off the piston and drag the pads.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 02-06-2015).]
