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V6 fiero motor as a high hp engine ?? by Vesquar
Started on: 09-05-2014 10:39 AM
Replies: 47 (945 views)
Last post by: dobey on 09-09-2014 03:50 PM
Vesquar
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Report this Post09-05-2014 10:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hello all I havnt posted since trying to discover my mismatched fieros true identity, but now I'm throwing ideas for what to do with her. So I thought about doing a 3800 swap but have now wanted to attempt a new idea. If I took the v6 in my 84 bought a heavy mild cam, bought racing heads get em ported and polished, oversized, better springs. Then bought all roller rockers and lifters, all new better bearings, better pistons. Then hooked that up to Muncie 4, would it be a viable power source for my fiero ??
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Report this Post09-05-2014 10:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Start with a 3.4 PR engine out of a Camaro or Go 3800SC. Leave the 2.8 alone as it is not worth the hassle.
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Report this Post09-05-2014 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If it runs and makes more than 100 lb-ft of torque, it'll move the Fiero. So it'll be a "viable power source" for the Fiero.

But you're not going to get much out of an old 60 degree V6 that came in the Fiero.

What is your definition of "high" HP anyway?
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Report this Post09-05-2014 12:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well considering the power to weight ratio I'd say high hp for the fiero would be 350 to 400, with matching torque. I want to go with the 3800 but it's not really a viable option for me right now. I can get one but I have no welder or the time to figure out how to put it in
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Report this Post09-05-2014 12:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Vesquar:

Well considering the power to weight ratio I'd say high hp for the fiero would be 350 to 400, with matching torque. I want to go with the 3800 but it's not really a viable option for me right now. I can get one but I have no welder or the time to figure out how to put it in


If you have around $2500 you can buy all off the shelf parts including the engine / trans to get the 3800SC done. Then you could turbo it for > 350HP or do the "typical 3800 SC mods" for ~350HP.

The 3.4pr with performance mods is probably going to top out ~225HP NA and ~300HP forced induction.
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Report this Post09-05-2014 12:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I found the engine alone for about 2500 can't find the Muncie 4, but I still gotta find a place to buy motor mounts from.
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Arns85GT
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Report this Post09-05-2014 12:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have built up a motor, not particularly high performance and the 2.8 went to 132 hp at the wheels. I know though, that the 2.8 pretty much maxes out at 200 hp. The folk legend that the engine can't support high rpm is essentially wrong. With stock cam mine would rev hard to 6k and past. I believe it wanted to go to 7k but I didn't have the valve springs and high output rods and rings to do it relliably. From an economic point of view it was cheaper to do my 4.9 carb'd conversion, and it gives over 200hp

Arn

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Vesquar
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Report this Post09-05-2014 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Since you own a 4.9 how hard was putting it in ?? Was it heavy modifications ??
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Report this Post09-05-2014 01:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Performance wise what engine should I go with ?? The 4.9 doesn't seem to have much potential. I know the 3800 is a good bet except I don't have the means to make a GOOD harness or store a donor car, plus I can't make motor mounts
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Report this Post09-05-2014 01:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Vesquar:

Performance wise what engine should I go with ?? The 4.9 doesn't seem to have much potential. I know the 3800 is a good bet except I don't have the means to make a GOOD harness or store a donor car, plus I can't make motor mounts


There are people who sell harnesses, and mounts.
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Report this Post09-05-2014 02:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Vesquar:
Well considering the power to weight ratio I'd say high hp for the fiero would be 350 to 400, with matching torque. I want to go with the 3800 but it's not really a viable option for me right now. I can get one but I have no welder or the time to figure out how to put it in


The cheapest and easiest way to get 350-400 HP in a Fiero, is the 3800. The newer 3.5/3.9 engines could also be made to put out 350-400 HP fairly easily, but I don't know how the cost will compare to the 3.8.

There are plenty of (street driven) Fieros with ~500 HP engines in them, and a few making 700+ HP. But you're not going to make anywhere near that much power, for any reasonably low cost, with an old 60 degree V6 platform engine.
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Report this Post09-05-2014 03:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The money isn't what is an issue honestly, it's just the time I don't have. I realize I could go ls4 but being a fiero I just feel as though it has more of a 6 cylinder personality. I have no peak I'm trying to reach I just want the most out of the best 6 cylinder I can get.
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Report this Post09-05-2014 04:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think the max a 2.8 gets even turbocharged was like less than 200 hp. I dont know, just relying on what others have said in the past.
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Report this Post09-05-2014 05:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Vesquar:

The money isn't what is an issue honestly, it's just the time I don't have. I realize I could go ls4 but being a fiero I just feel as though it has more of a 6 cylinder personality. I have no peak I'm trying to reach I just want the most out of the best 6 cylinder I can get.


Take it to someone and have them install the 3800 for you then.

I don't know who all are still offering to do 3800 swaps, or if they are too busy to do another one, but if you don't have the time/space/skills to do it yourself, and the money isn't the problem, then paying someone else to do it is the best way to get it done.
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Report this Post09-05-2014 06:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
see i thought about that but all my local mechanics are dumb as hell and overcharge. there is no custom shops in my are for sure
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Report this Post09-05-2014 10:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you can't do it yourself, and you have no reliable mechanic, a 28 year old project is not for you.

Yes the 4.9 bolts up to the transaxle and if you grab the harness and ECM out of the donor it is one of the easiest swaps. You need to fabricate motor mounts.

I know from experience that the torque of the 4.9 can tear up the average motor mount. I have solid mounted mine after breaking 2.

I carb'd my engine which is a little complicated but can be done without many special tools. (very powerful but not a 300+ hp engine)

If you decide to do a swap, you need a place, a cherry picker, and safety stands. Plus you need some tools and education.

I hope this helps you out.

Arn
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Report this Post09-06-2014 01:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thanks, I have the know how and most the tools, I guess I was just hoping for a 2 day job. seems as though my swap will have to undergo a delay. for now stay with cosmetics it seems. Thanks
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Report this Post09-06-2014 01:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kawanaClick Here to visit kawana's HomePageClick Here to Email kawanaSend a Private Message to kawanaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If your issue is downtime on your fiero, Id suggest picking up a second cradle to install a new motor on and swap it on once its done.
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Report this Post09-06-2014 01:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Arns85GT:

If you can't do it yourself, and you have no reliable mechanic, a 28 year old project is not for you....

Arn


Let me add to this... if you can't do it yourself and your engine swap mechanic does not live in the same town you, then an engine swap is not for you. Otherwise, when something breaks who is going to fix it? No regular shop is going to want to touch it.
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Report this Post09-06-2014 02:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Kawana thank you I am such a moron. That is a genius idea it would allow me to work on it in leisure. Thank you so much
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Report this Post09-06-2014 02:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Vesquar

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Also, I am not particularly interested in having someone else do it because I dont trust people to do work the right way. I have been burned too many times :P
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Report this Post09-06-2014 08:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageClick Here to Email Francis TSend a Private Message to Francis TEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I built this high revving 2.8 and it has lots of power. It also took a lot of time/money and aftermarket parts: steel crank, headers, intake manifold, forged custom 9.37:1 comp pistons, wild cam, etc etc. BTW: the stock heads are fine will flow enough CFM to support 300+ hp. The intake won't flow at all.

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Report this Post09-06-2014 09:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Important question. How much power do you want and what are you willing to spend to achieve it? A number of GM engines will bolt up to your trans, but only the 93-95 3.4L P/R Camaro/Firebird engine will accept all of the 2.8L bolt on parts and run with the Fiero harness and ECM. Its a nice upgrade and the engine can be modified for more power than a 2.8L but depending on how you define "high HP" you may or may not get the results that you are looking for.
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Report this Post09-06-2014 11:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Vesquar:

... I guess I was just hoping for a 2 day job.


Sorry... we've been there...


 
quote
Originally posted by kawana:

... I'd suggest picking up a second cradle to install a new motor on and swap it on once its done.


This is your best best.

But the cradle swap afterwards will still take more than 2 days, especially if it's a different engine than what you have now.


One of our guys started his 3800 S/C swap in February thinking it would take 6 weeks. He's been driving it about a month now.


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[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 09-06-2014).]

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Report this Post09-06-2014 01:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I work in the performance industry and many here are very correct.

Yes the 2.8 can make all the power you would like but how much are you wiling to spend to do it. This is not cheap as how fast you want to go is equal to how much you want to spend

Second if you get into a crazy set up be prepared to do it on your own or pay dearly for someone else to deal with it and even repair it.

Engine swaps are the cheapest and easiest way for more power. The more stock the cheaper and easier they are to deal with.

Finally I have seen people here and at work for years tackle project way over their head and budget. Too often we see a nice car that was running end up for sale a few years later not running and the owner deeper in debt.

The bottom line set a budget and make a list of your skills and then see how much or what kind of modifications you can afford and deal with. This is a time to be very honest with yourself or you will cause yourself more headache than it is worth.

If you do not have the skills either hone them to a level where you can deal with it or just leave it alone.

Finally you also need to access tools and work space as do you have all the tools needed and the space to do this correctly in.

One last thing to consider too. If you are going to do this do it right and don't cheap out or take short cuts. You will pay for it later with failures in places you can afford a failure at. Also document the build well as many buyers will stay away from a confirmed confident build. Some people can make them look nice but they car is a accident waiting to happen. This is not just true here but any modified car. I see it often with many pro street cars that were not built correctly and then the owner can not sell it for much more than scrap. Documentation helps preserve value and helps if you ever have to sell the car.

This is a deal where you just need to sit back and look at all aspects and just what the cost and skills needed to do it right. By doing this you will be here 5 years from now with a running car and happy vs. asking us if anyone wants to buy a half done project car like too many other have done.

Listen and learn from those here that have done this and you will get some ideas of what all is needed with each swap or modification.

The V8 Chevy and 3800 are the most common, cheapest and easiest to do.
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Report this Post09-06-2014 02:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageClick Here to Email Francis TSend a Private Message to Francis TEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Tell us what your budget will be and we'll make suggestions.

Before I had to stop -do to heath reasons- building headers and intake manifolds for the 2.8 / 3.4 our combo $1k , intake & headers were very cost effective and would get you about 180 - 200 + HP at 5-6k rpm. Installation of which was 1-3 days depending your skill. I think a set of headers and a carb setup might be your ticket. Whereas they will let the engine breath and yes, in this case, a carb is better than fuel injection. The stock intake just don't flow.

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Report this Post09-06-2014 05:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bjc 350Send a Private Message to bjc 350Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Related to your quest for more H.P. from a 2.8. A friend called yesterday to tell me he had just bought a supercharger for a 2.8-V6. He has a Manx dune buggy with a 2.8 in it and I have given him a few brackets and sundry pieces while he assembles it. I dropped by his house to see the buggy and the supercharger. It is a KF or Fageol brand and is still available new. Problem is, they only support a carb or throttle body injection like used in the early S 10 pickup. He says it puts out about 5# boost and is good for about A 35% increase in power. It's something to look into although it would likely require an engine cover mod. because of it's height.
Here is a link to the company.
http://www.fageolsuperchargers.com/
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Report this Post09-06-2014 07:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Vesquar:

thanks, I have the know how and most the tools, I guess I was just hoping for a 2 day job. seems as though my swap will have to undergo a delay. for now stay with cosmetics it seems. Thanks


There is no swap that's a "2 day job" if you haven't done it before. It's an old car. You *will* run into unexpected snags. You need to be able to take the time to finish the car even if it runs longer than expected.
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Report this Post09-06-2014 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Old LarSend a Private Message to Old LarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 2.8 was "high performance" in the mid 1980s at 140 HP out of the box. Trying to crank out 200 HP from a 25 year old engine is a pipe dream. Just find a 2014 Camaro V6 which puts out 300+ HP and figure out how to work it into a 25 year old Fiero.
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Report this Post09-07-2014 11:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Old Lar:

The 2.8 was "high performance" in the mid 1980s at 140 HP out of the box. Trying to crank out 200 HP from a 25 year old engine is a pipe dream. Just find a 2014 Camaro V6 which puts out 300+ HP and figure out how to work it into a 25 year old Fiero.


The best way to get a 300+hp car is to buy a 2014 Camaro and just drive it. The charm of the Fiero is that it's cheap and fun. It will never be as nice as a 2014 Camaro even if you give it the identical engine. It will definitely cost MORE to put the Camaro engine in the Fiero rather than just to buy the Camaro and drive it.
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Report this Post09-08-2014 09:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You can build a 3800sc fiero... in a 1 car garage... without ordering anything. . Assuming that you are willing to learn how to do basic fab work and have access to a junkyard. Ive done an entire 3800 swap in a week stopping by a guys house after work every day with a small welder and wiring kit in my trunk years ago when I was 22. The biggest fear you should have when swapping a fiero is rust... painting crap... bushings...and any other unrelated crap that gets bundled into the "well im here might as well do it" bucket.
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Report this Post09-08-2014 09:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Francis T:
BTW: the stock heads are fine will flow enough CFM to support 300+ hp.


Please prove it.
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Report this Post09-08-2014 10:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
The best way to get a 300+hp car is to buy a 2014 Camaro and just drive it. The charm of the Fiero is that it's cheap and fun. It will never be as nice as a 2014 Camaro even if you give it the identical engine. It will definitely cost MORE to put the Camaro engine in the Fiero rather than just to buy the Camaro and drive it.


There are plenty of cheaper cars than a new Camaro to buy. A C5 Vette or E46 M3 could be had for about half as much as the cheapest new Camaro. Or a 2010 could be had for less than $20K if you really want a new Camaro. You could also get a 98-02 Camaro/Firebird with the LS1 for pretty cheap. Heck, even some of the earlier C6 Vettes can be had for around $20K or less. There are plenty of 300+ HP options when looking at 200x model year cars, even in just the GM family.
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Report this Post09-08-2014 01:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well thank you all for your input I guess for the 350 hp I'm hoping for I'm gonna do a swap
3800
All new internal
Better heads
Turbocharger
And I'm gonna find me a 4 speed Muncie
Thank all oh you again for the input
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Report this Post09-08-2014 06:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Vesquar:

Well thank you all for your input I guess for the 350 hp I'm hoping for I'm gonna do a swap
3800
All new internal
Better heads
Turbocharger
And I'm gonna find me a 4 speed Muncie
Thank all oh you again for the input


you don't need new internals and better heads with a turbo 3800 for just 350 hp,

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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post09-08-2014 08:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Generally the engine and added power is not an issue.

The issue is the transmission and axles. These are the first to break if you drive hard and have no torque management program.

The Automatic 4 speed behind most GM cars including the GTP I had and the HHR SS is good for about 325 HP before you start getting on the other side of possible or early failure. A lot depends on you drive. GM with the turbo upgrade limited my HHR SS 290 HP and 315 FT LBS. The driveline engineer said around 325 FT LBS is safe but after that it may or may not live with an auto and most manuals are at risk at the clutch and axles.

Like I said if you plan to add power just have a budget for broken parts as you will find weak links as you go.
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Vesquar
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Report this Post09-09-2014 12:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I want the new internals for reasons
As for the tranny issue I am already fully aware. I am going with a muncie because from past ecperiences they are very hard to tear up, atleast the transmission. as for the transaxle i wouldnt know.
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Report this Post09-09-2014 08:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Vesquar:

I want the new internals for reasons
As for the tranny issue I am already fully aware. I am going with a muncie because from past ecperiences they are very hard to tear up, atleast the transmission. as for the transaxle i wouldnt know.


The strongest factory-rated manual FWD transaxle from GM is the Saab F40, rated at 400 N-m of torque (or about 285 lb-ft). There's nothing spectacular about the Muncie transmissions. The only good reason to use one is if you've already got one and don't want to spend the money to get something else, or you have special requirement that the transmission had to be built in Indiana. The Getrag 5 speed from the Fiero was also built in Muncie.

If money isn't a problem, then an F40 from a G6 will give you the most gears to play with, and probably the best fuel economy too. If you want to spend a bit less money, the next best manual trans to use in a Fiero would probably be the F23 5 speed. It's still a bit of work, but cheaper to swap in, than the F40.
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Report this Post09-09-2014 11:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
The strongest factory-rated manual FWD transaxle from GM is the Saab F40, rated at 400 N-m of torque (or about 285 lb-ft).


285 doesnt seem like that much, people put V8s on those?
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Report this Post09-09-2014 12:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for VesquarClick Here to Email VesquarSend a Private Message to VesquarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That does seem kinda low, I had a Muncie behind a little over 380 ft-lb and I drove the hell outta it trying to see if it would break. Never had one issue sold the car running like new
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