There is really no argument. I love all T-top cars. I have had some of each. I will agree about getting replacement parts. BUT... which ones are you going to try to get reproduced/ The CJB or the non-CJB weatherstrips?
And as far as having to take parts from good cars to make a fake Indy... wouldn't the same be true of a T-top Fiero? Can you go buy T-top kits off the shelf somewhere? Of course not. You have to find a car with Ts in a junkyard or a donor that is rusted out. Actually I can reproduce an Indy quite easily with off the shelf parts. Aero parts are everywhere. Wings are everywhere. Mr Mike makes a version of the Indy seat. ACC makes red carpet. Phoenix Graphics has the decals. The only thing you really can't buy anywhere else is the Y82 code.
Apparently there will always be a disagreement about CJB or non-CJB. But who cares? There are people who like nothcbacks better, and others who like fastbacks better. I prefer CJB. The car I have now is non-CJB. It is still fun to drive although it is not as tight as my previous CJBs. I guess I'll just suck it up and enjoy it anyway!
There is really no argument. I love all T-top cars. I have had some of each. I will agree about getting replacement parts. BUT... which ones are you going to try to get reproduced/ The CJB or the non-CJB weatherstrips?
And as far as having to take parts from good cars to make a fake Indy... wouldn't the same be true of a T-top Fiero? Can you go buy T-top kits off the shelf somewhere? Of course not. You have to find a car with Ts in a junkyard or a donor that is rusted out. Actually I can reproduce an Indy quite easily with off the shelf parts. Aero parts are everywhere. Wings are everywhere. Mr Mike makes a version of the Indy seat. ACC makes red carpet. Phoenix Graphics has the decals. The only thing you really can't buy anywhere else is the Y82 code.
Apparently there will always be a disagreement about CJB or non-CJB. But who cares? There are people who like nothcbacks better, and others who like fastbacks better. I prefer CJB. The car I have now is non-CJB. It is still fun to drive although it is not as tight as my previous CJBs. I guess I'll just suck it up and enjoy it anyway!
I just see the T top and an option and the Indy more as a model. The fact you can make an Indy is always there but like I pointed out it is not worth the expense. Also the seats are close but not right. No one has made a correct seat cover yet or will due to cost.
Think of it this way. I have seen people make a GTO Judge out of a GTO which is a model change. But I have seen people put a 455 in a Judge to replace a 400 and really do little to change the value unless someone wants a 100% mnumbers matching car. That engine can even have the correct date code for a 455 in that year and most collectors have no issue with it as long as it is a engine that is as good or better than what came in the car. Note often the original engine is lost anyway.
Guy are even restoring rare cars like a 455 SD TA and even if they change nearly all the body panels it is still a 455 SD if all the original parts are there to go in it. It comes down to splitting hairs and most Fiero owners want a T top car in good condititon more than to worry about three letters. The draw like I stated on the 88 are the model upgrades the 88 got more than anything.
This all might change if the Fiero was worth more but at the price point were are at people just want a clean car with options. Numbers matching issues are long off for our cars if it will ever happen.
If the CJB is important to you that is fine. Just don't expect it to make it more valuable I guess is my point. We need more value in the car before that will ever happen if it ever does.
I am in-process replacing my seals with F82 Camaro seals. This involves notching the top corner of the B pillar, sectioning F82 seals, and gluing them to cut, new Fiero store seals. I will post on a new thread when complete. Jim
Well, we are really splitting hairs. They are all just options on a Fiero. Just like the GTO was an option on the LeMans. At least the GTO had an actual VIN change for 5 of the 11 years it was made. The GTOs for 66-71 kinda fit into exactly what I am talking about. You can take any old LeMans and put GTO stuff on it but unless it has 242 in the VIN it is still not a GTO. All the other year of the GTO run were easier for people to make clones because all the VINs were 237 so unless you had the build sheet or got the info from PHS there was really no way to tell if you had a real GTO or something someone had made. I was into GTOs before I got into Fieros. I have owned every model GTO (except 74 which I didn't want anyway), including my 69 Ram Air IV Judge.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I totally disagree with you but we both have the right to our opinions. I think it is much easier to make an Indy clone than add T-tops. And I think the CJB does make the car more valuable (as well as quieter). I think you keep missing that part of what I am saying... CJB seals are better (because of the flap) and you always know they were installed correctly at C&C. It is not JUST because of the three letters.
That's my final word on this. I am sure all of this is not what this thread was intended for. When it comes down to it, it is all opinions and preferences and there will never be a right or wrong.
Nice thing about the Indy's is you can always stop in at www.FieroPaceCar.com and see if your car is real. I know some tricks to also telling if the vin is faked or switched. Rick B
[This message has been edited by SuperchargedV6 (edited 10-07-2009).]
Neither of our points mean much unless the car gains any value.
Right now with the Value of most Fiero's including low mileage 88 T top cars most of our argument means little.
Things are different for the GTO as a stock GTO can be $20K-40K or more depending on the year to a Judge that can go for more than 100K+ depending on options.
We may have to revisit this disagrement but not till our cars are worth more than $20K. We may be to old to disagree by then! LOL!!!
As for fake pace cars I have yet to see a fake that was done right to where if you know what to look for you can't tell. No one in their right mind would spend the money to do it right unless they have a crashed Pace car already. If they swap the parts over at what point is the car not the original car. That is a sticking point with many collectors and restoration people today. The is no real definition.
I saw a classic car that was restored with a few of the original parts and still claimed and was accepted as the original car. But some still think it to be a recreation with only a few parts. I lean to the recreation but not all in the market do. That is one disagreement that is on going.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 10-07-2009).]
RPO code only matters for the '88 model. I had the popular belief that unless a Fiero had the RPO code that it was somehow a fake or some poor homejob, but when I bought a completely original '87 SE V6 Getrag, I figured that someone had added the top. I soon realized that this was a very rare combination. 1987 SE. I had originally bought the car as a parts car. I didn't yet appreciate it for what it was. Many other Fiero owners had been trying to buy this car for several years but the P.O. owner was insisting on $5,000 and kept turning down the offers he was recieving. It had been sitting for approx. 15 years. and I figured it would need too much work to put it back into working order. The car was filthy dirty, neglected. I cleaned out all the garbage, found most of the original paperwork incuding the key knockouts, the C&C warranty card dated April 6th 1987, he car was delivered to the dealer, Peter Burdon Pontiac/Buick on April 7th 1987. I started to think that maybe with the combination and documentation that this car may be worth putting the work into, no it's not a CJB, nor should it be. I would not have invested a great deal of time and money into this car if I knew that it was not "correct" because it matters to me only.
Hyper...... show us pics of your TTOP or get out of this thread. Why is there always one a$$hole who has to crash a thread and put in his/her .02 cents.
Rob
Rob here is a picture. Happy?
Songman and I were exchanging T top opinions. We may not agree but we respect each others opinion. If you do not like it ignore it.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 10-08-2009).]
My point is that other than a few words in one of your posts, (about getting together and forgeting about the CJB/Non CJB thing) your vibe has been negative. I understand you have the right to speak your mind, but the idea of the original post was to show off your TTOP cars. Things were going fine, CJB and non CJB guys were showing off their cars and then you pop off about all this "who cares if you have a CJB car, remember they made more non CJB cars too" stuff.
I agree about all of us getting together, we have too many posts on here about "Coupes suck, GT's are the only cool cars" and "If you don't have a V6, your car sucks". We are all FIERO owners and lovers, and with PONTIAC gone we need to stick together. GT's are great, Coupes are great, Non CJB TTOP cars are just as cool as CJB cars. The only person who should care is the buyer if he/she wants to have a CJB car or not. Worth more? No. Because bottom line, something is only worth what the buyer pays for it. A seller may "try" to ask more for a TTOP car, but again they may not get it. What I don't get is that the value for a coupe with Tee's is less than a GT. The Fiero price guide adds like $600 to the value of a GT and $500 for a coupe???? why.
I got my 88 coupe with 62K on it, only options are A/C, Tilt and Tee's. Mine is not stock and may have lost value because I have swapped out the 4 banger for a DOHC 3.4L I love it and will never sell it so I don't care about the value. I just love working on it, and showing it off. (and the only people who care are you all on this forum)
My point is that other than a few words in one of your posts, (about getting together and forgeting about the CJB/Non CJB thing) your vibe has been negative. I understand you have the right to speak your mind, but the idea of the original post was to show off your TTOP cars. Things were going fine, CJB and non CJB guys were showing off their cars and then you pop off about all this "who cares if you have a CJB car, remember they made more non CJB cars too" stuff.
I agree about all of us getting together, we have too many posts on here about "Coupes suck, GT's are the only cool cars" and "If you don't have a V6, your car sucks". We are all FIERO owners and lovers, and with PONTIAC gone we need to stick together. GT's are great, Coupes are great, Non CJB TTOP cars are just as cool as CJB cars. The only person who should care is the buyer if he/she wants to have a CJB car or not. Worth more? No. Because bottom line, something is only worth what the buyer pays for it. A seller may "try" to ask more for a TTOP car, but again they may not get it. What I don't get is that the value for a coupe with Tee's is less than a GT. The Fiero price guide adds like $600 to the value of a GT and $500 for a coupe???? why.
I got my 88 coupe with 62K on it, only options are A/C, Tilt and Tee's. Mine is not stock and may have lost value because I have swapped out the 4 banger for a DOHC 3.4L I love it and will never sell it so I don't care about the value. I just love working on it, and showing it off. (and the only people who care are you all on this forum)
cheers.
Rob
Now see you post is no different than mine. It is about T tops with no picture and is not an issue with me and most here.
I just feel the CJB non CJB needs to be addressed and the non CJB people get left out too often for no reason in my view. Just my 2 cents. If you don't like it ignore it.
Good talk and pictures always come together here and always have. As long as no one get rude as you have I see no issue with it. Besides everytime you say to post picture we see the same cars that we have seen most of the time over the last 10 years. I don't feel the need to post pictures of my car over and over and over. Leave it to the people who have something new of just joined the Fiero ownership. Many of us have already been seen too much already.
Point is next time you don't have to be rude.
On your car if anything the engine change if done correctly may have increased the value of your car. Even today a V8 Corvair will bring more money than a stock one if the work is done correctly.
Originally posted by hyperv6: I just feel the CJB non CJB needs to be addressed and the non CJB people get left out too often for no reason in my view. Just my 2 cents. If you don't like it ignore it.
Followed this thread, didn't feel like I had anything to contribute but, I agree with Songman. When looking for a T Top, I wanted a CJB. Passed on several non-CJBs. Call it whatever you want but, there is a preference out there. I'm not suggesting they (CJB) are better, just preferred. Could be it's because they only came on 88s. 88s are considered better by some, don't know. I just know that I wasn't buying a T Top unless I found the right CJB. Doesn't make mine any better, just my preference.
Hi I'm new to Fiero Forum. Here's my first Fiero, a 1988 GT w/T-Tops. Just picked it up from my father in law. It had been sitting for approx. 5 yrs. He lost the keys in a house fire and gave me the car. I'm looking forward to going through the car and getting it on the road.
That's nice. I know you are going to enjoy it. Judging from the little strip above the window that should be a CJB car. Make sure and send in the VIN and you can get all the info about the car.
Followed this thread, didn't feel like I had anything to contribute but, I agree with Songman. When looking for a T Top, I wanted a CJB. Passed on several non-CJBs. Call it whatever you want but, there is a preference out there. I'm not suggesting they (CJB) are better, just preferred. Could be it's because they only came on 88s. 88s are considered better by some, don't know. I just know that I wasn't buying a T Top unless I found the right CJB. Doesn't make mine any better, just my preference.
Ron
Nothing wrong with what ever anyone wants. I still think it is more 88 than anything.
I just felt the need to speak for the non CJB cars since we get snubbed and over looked often for what I feel is no reason. Many speak up on the CJB cars but few people speak up for the others, Other than two strips of rubber nothing is different. In fact many CJB cars have been restored with non CJB cars and the reverse is true.
I just think if we looked upon and counted the T top cars as one we may stand a chance of getting repo parts made. Too often only the numbers for the 88 cars are given and any MFG would look at you like you were crazy to ask them to make parts for so few cars. When all the cars are counted together they add up to a amount that might help get things done?
The CJB strip might seal better it may not. I think they only did it to make it a one step deal to put the part on and to keep it in place better. The main seal on the roof is what seals the glass and it really is not different from the other.
I think it was more a labor and quality issue. My innner strips can slide up and need to be push down on the head liner some times. I am sure this is something the GM may not have wanted to deal with.
This is like motor oil there is no right or wrong just opinions so support yours but respect them all.
I see the guy who used to own C & C at work from time to time. I will have to ask him what was the reason for the change. Own the company in later years but he also was the one who went to Pontiac about doing a T top in 1983. They told him it could not be done and they gave him a Fiero to prove it. He did and they were shocked at GM. He said he was able to get the dealer installed option approved but never could get the factory option till 88. He still had the 3rd CJB built the last time I spoke with him. He is fun to speak to as he know all on the tops and how it all happened.
I used to own that car. I saw it when it was on ebay recently.
it had a bad engine when i bought it for $250.00 so replaced it. I put in the head liner which was missing. I made the T-Top shades myself. Also added the 120 speedo cluster and aux gauges. Glass SE sail windows because the windows were missing. It had no spoiler so I added that. Also had no bumpers on it so I had to track down white bumpers, put an 88 bumper on the back. I bought a GT's dual exhaust because of the rear bumper but sold the car before I could put it on. Had 13" wheels so i added GT wheels. GT steering wheel, floor mats. REbuilt headlight motors for the first time. Seats were a missing too so I redid the upolsetry on a set i bought in a bone yard. So much more I am sure. If I had not bought the car from a fellow Fiero nut it was going to be chopped up and sold for parts. I think it ended up pretty nice!
I put a lot of work into it to bring it back to life before an old friend of mine bought it from my mom whom I gave it to as a spare car. I probably did more work on that Fiero than just about any other I have owned, had a lot of fun with it and learned a lot from it. Hope you do to.
P.S. sorry about the engine bay paint on the battery side. I forgot to bolt down the battery and learned that if you dont it slides into the fanbelt which chews through the battery and sprays acid all over the place =(
EDIT: just now noticed the T-Top shades in the trunk in one of your pics. Looks like someone pulled the edge stripping off and hammered them in the trunk. Bummer. The set I made for my GT at the same time are still going strong 5 years now.
[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 10-09-2009).]
I can't say what "most people want" because I can't truthfully say that I know "most people". What I do factually know is that when I started to look for a T-Top GT I would only consider an 88 with the factory code. That is just what I wanted. I ended up with an 88GT, yellow with T-Tops...so much for factory though...it has a 4.9 caddy motor in it!
I can't say what "most people want" because I can't truthfully say that I know "most people". What I do factually know is that when I started to look for a T-Top GT I would only consider an 88 with the factory code. That is just what I wanted. I ended up with an 88GT, yellow with T-Tops...so much for factory though...it has a 4.9 caddy motor in it!
I have owned several non CJB T-Top cars. Honestly if they were installed by C&C like mine were, the quality is the same as factory, since C&C installed the factory optioned T-Top Fieros too. Unless you are saying you would only want them for purity reasons. The Factory T-Top 88's are certainly worth more than the non CJB 88's
Lets see some pics of your 4.9 T-Top man, sounds sweet!
[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 10-09-2009).]
I like the Formula decal on your decklid. Tonight I was thinking of doing a Formula decal like that on mine, in the same spot, since the body shop that painted mine put the Fiero decal on the left instead of the right.
Did you have it custom made to fit there? Or is that a stock size for the door, or a Firebird model?
88 Mera, non CJB but was installed new for the conversion 5 speed.
88 coupe in front CJB auto Black car against the wall, 88 GT CJB 5 speed White car second from right, 87 SE auto Left of it in the shadow is an 88 coupe CJB 5 speed
The last three are the same 88 GT CJB auto
I have more but no pics, They were on a harddrive gone bad.
[This message has been edited by Indiana_resto_guy (edited 05-29-2010).]
Found this 1986 in a garage with 23,000 miles and lower picture is me installing a T-Top for a friend. So now you know of two nickels Jscott1. There very easy to do. Rick B
I guess that I will play too! This is a CJB T-Top on an 88 Mera. However, it was not original but transplanted from another vehicle. I went with a CJB setup because I thought that it went better with an 88 vehicle. Otherwise, I would not care if the T-Top is CJB or non CJB.
I have my gold lace rims transferred over to my T-top now from the hardtop. I have the interior about done, except for the seats. I am currently swapping the driver's seat upholstery, and have the passenger seat ready to swap out with one in much better shape. (just replacing with a set of used upholstery for pieces that were ripped/torn. Will go MrMikes maybe later this summer or next spring, funds depending).
------------------ 2009 Volvo C30 T5 R-Design 1988 Pontiac Fiero Formula Hardtop 1988 Pontiac Fiero Formula T-top
[This message has been edited by Fformula88 (edited 06-12-2010).]
