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Turn your Fiero into a hybrid! by lou_dias
Started on: 09-08-2016 09:49 AM
Replies: 67 (1728 views)
Last post by: lou_dias on 10-06-2016 12:48 AM
pmbrunelle
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Report this Post09-12-2016 08:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just like in childhood, one must learn to walk before running.

I think going straight to an AC machine to be cool like the OEMs would be ambitious, to say the least...

In this case, a reasonable DIY project that could be "chewed" would be to use a brushed DC motor/generator with a separately excited field (not permanent magnet). So the motor/generator would be in parallel with the battery (possibly a different battery than the hotel battery), and the excitation current would determine if the motor is assisting, freewheeling, or braking.

The DIY custom control box would need the following inputs:
TPS
RPM
Clutch switch

Outputs:
Continuously variable current source for field excitation

Probably the excitation current could be based on a 2D TPS-RPM lookup table, with maybe a clutch switch to prevent regen on upshifts, which could kill the engine.

AC though is a whole other ballgame.
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Report this Post09-13-2016 03:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopClick Here to Email jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fist off, the auto manufactures can barely make hybrids that are worth anything. I'd be shocked at this point to see any kind of gain from a diy "hybrid". Also, lithium ion batteries are not cheap in the quantities needed.

A more practicle(but expensive still) DIY hybrid would be an electric vehicle like the volt that has a high enough output engine/generator that it can run when the batteries are depleted. Again, it's not likely to be as efficient GMs volt but it would eliminate the range anxiety of a diy electric vehicle.

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lou_dias
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Report this Post09-13-2016 08:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:

Fist off, the auto manufactures can barely make hybrids that are worth anything. I'd be shocked at this point to see any kind of gain from a diy "hybrid". Also, lithium ion batteries are not cheap in the quantities needed.

A more practicle(but expensive still) DIY hybrid would be an electric vehicle like the volt that has a high enough output engine/generator that it can run when the batteries are depleted. Again, it's not likely to be as efficient GMs volt but it would eliminate the range anxiety of a diy electric vehicle.

But isn't that what we're talking about here. The Fiero engine moves the car unassisted. This would be a performance boost that also improves fuel economy. How often does that happen?

Does anyone know if Honda uses the same bolt-pattern as the Fiero? Apparently there's a procedure for rebuilding the batteries in those: http://www.homepower.com/ar...vehicle-battery-pack
This company offers rebuilding as a service: http://www.greentecauto.com/

I really like the IMA (integrate motor assist) design. It provides a gain of 23 hp.
http://www.hybridcars.com/2012-honda-civic-hybrid/
Since I have a 6-speed my flywheel has a 1+" spacer bolted to it to allow it to use a Fiero clutch. Honda's IMA could potentially fit inside the housing and replace that...

These units are cheap and common on ebay. Here's a 2011 version:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201...AOSwZVlXuSsu&vxp=mtr

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-13-2016).]

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Report this Post09-13-2016 09:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopClick Here to Email jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

But isn't that what we're talking about here......



No.
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dobey
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Report this Post09-13-2016 09:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
Does anyone know if Honda uses the same bolt-pattern as the Fiero? Apparently there's a procedure for rebuilding the batteries in those: http://www.homepower.com/ar...vehicle-battery-pack
This company offers rebuilding as a service: http://www.greentecauto.com/

I really like the IMA (integrate motor assist) design. It provides a gain of 23 hp.
http://www.hybridcars.com/2012-honda-civic-hybrid/
Since I have a 6-speed my flywheel has a 1+" spacer bolted to it to allow it to use a Fiero clutch. Honda's IMA could potentially fit inside the housing and replace that...


No, Honda's bolt pattern does not match the GM Metric pattern the Fiero engines use. I'm not sure if the hybrids even use the same bell pattern as the non-hybrid Honda engines.

It will not fit inside the housing, even on the F40 with the larger bell it has. The Honda units are about 6" thick, IIRC. It should be possible to build a new housing, and move the important bits over, and might be possible to make the output side flywheel protrude far enough into the transmission, but it would be very expensive and time consuming to get it right.
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Report this Post09-13-2016 09:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:
A more practicle(but expensive still) DIY hybrid would be an electric vehicle like the volt that has a high enough output engine/generator that it can run when the batteries are depleted. Again, it's not likely to be as efficient GMs volt but it would eliminate the range anxiety of a diy electric vehicle.


My understanding of the Volt is that the engine cannot physically provide power directly to the wheels. It drives a motor/generator only, which can provide enough power to another motor/generator that can power the wheels, when the battery is depleted. I could be wrong, but that's how I understand the design to work in the Volt.
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Report this Post09-13-2016 09:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopClick Here to Email jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


My understanding of the Volt is that the engine cannot physically provide power directly to the wheels. It drives a motor/generator only, which can provide enough power to another motor/generator that can power the wheels, when the battery is depleted. I could be wrong, but that's how I understand the design to work in the Volt.

https://youtu.be/GcB47hAr7Xw
That's correct, that's why it is a feasible system for a diy hybrid. You start with an ev car and the switch from your batteries to your engine/generator is determined by the battery voltage.

I prefer purely ev vehicles. They make great commuters and if you need extra range, take your gas car.........

[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 09-13-2016).]

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Report this Post09-13-2016 10:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting.

Potential issues with the harmonic balancer due to increased stress from turning over the engine and taking off from a start
Does it shut the engine down at stop signs then use electric to move the car and start the engine? If so it would require a pretty stout belt and balancer
You would defiantly want to be able to control that as there are times you wouldn't want to shut the engine down.
While its not ideal it is interesting as an add on for boost and stop and go traffic. Would depend on how much the batteries weigh.
You would save some by getting rid of the alt and starter but pick it back up with batteries and components.
Using capacitors for quick power and batteries for longer runs.
Couple this with a high efficient 4 banger who knows.

Interesting.
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lou_dias
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Report this Post09-13-2016 11:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Battery technology seems to be where it's at right now.
Honda's even developed a hybrid A/C pump than on one side is belt-driven and on the other end has an electric motor that can spin the pump when the car is stopped (in traffic for instance) with the engine off.
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Report this Post09-13-2016 06:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroeddieClick Here to Email FieroeddieSend a Private Message to FieroeddieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've actually entertained the idea of swapping to a Greenline Ecotec. This is a factory setup in several GM vehicles one being the Saturn Vue. It uses a separate control unit that utilizes 48 Volts in it's own circuit to the alternator/starter. The problem is these units were only attached to automatics. Logistically it is something that could get out of hand with a stick shift and clutch actuation is too sporadic. The fluid clutch allows the system to restart seamlessly and without excessive drag. So how would the system define a stop or coming to a stop? Or being at a stop with the clutch in or out. That is why I discontinued the swap. I wanted a stick shift.

If you think the serpentine system cannot handle this, consider what the Eaton M90 consumes under full load. The L67 makes about 310 horsepower, but is rated at 240. The supercharger consumes 70 of that 310 horsepower. Top fuel superchargers (even though they run a thick cog belt) consume 700 to 800 horsepower. Now keep in mind that is overdriving the supercharger (factory 1 to 2 and with a smaller pulley. People put smaller pulleys to make it one to three). Reverse the direction of power and you have mechanical advantage, 3 to 1.

Honda's IMA is interesting, the A/C compressor is tied to the hybrid system to continue working when the car is in autostop. So the occupants can keep cool at stoplights. Their system stops the engine at every stop. It actually stops the engine at about 2 MPH rolling to a stop. It then restarts when you remove your foot from the brake pedal. Those engines will easily attain 300k miles. The IMA is sandwiched between the transmission and the engine and is not more than three inches thick. Below are some pictures I have of when I work on them.

Also horsepower is categorized under physics, not math. It is the amount of work being performed. If you do not have force or movement (rotation) you are not performing work. Therefore not making horsepower.






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Report this Post09-13-2016 07:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fieroeddie:

I've actually entertained the idea of swapping to a Greenline Ecotec. This is a factory setup in several GM vehicles one being the Saturn Vue. It uses a separate control unit that utilizes 48 Volts in it's own circuit to the alternator/starter. The problem is these units were only attached to automatics. Logistically it is something that could get out of hand with a stick shift and clutch actuation is too sporadic. The fluid clutch allows the system to restart seamlessly and without excessive drag. So how would the system define a stop or coming to a stop? Or being at a stop with the clutch in or out. That is why I discontinued the swap. I wanted a stick shift.


Thank you for this information. So far, this sounds like the setup that is the closest to being transferable to another engine...

If we're lucky, the control unit be made up of two distinct parts... ideally two separate PCBs. If the power and control sections are divorced, then the link between them could be severed, and we could install our own controls instead.
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Report this Post09-13-2016 10:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For start-from-stop - I'm not sure what the issue is with a manual...just leave it in gear. I imagine the low torque of the BAS won't jerk the car forward like an actual starter motor does when you by-pass the clutch switch...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-13-2016).]

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Report this Post09-13-2016 11:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroeddieClick Here to Email FieroeddieSend a Private Message to FieroeddieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The problem is the system is designed to restart without load. The car would have to be in neutral or the clutch in. The way the IMA and the greenline works is they both restart then add power. It is still against a fluid clutch (IMA is behind a CVT). The brake and vehicle speed is integral to the operation of it. Adding a direct driver induced connection adds a lot of complication. The IMA is more powerful than the greenline alternator/starter. It will have trouble starting a motor and powering the car. Drive both of them, that will give you a better idea of how they work. Not that they can't work in a manual, there are many variables in a way a person drives and how it would restart based on different scenarios. Plus the IMA is direct drive versus an underdriven system on the greenline.



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Report this Post09-14-2016 12:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


My understanding of the Volt is that the engine cannot physically provide power directly to the wheels. It drives a motor/generator only, which can provide enough power to another motor/generator that can power the wheels, when the battery is depleted. I could be wrong, but that's how I understand the design to work in the Volt.


This is not correct. It was widely circulated as fact, but in fact above a certain vehicle load the Volt transmission can "lock up" and the gasoline engine can power the wheels directly along with the electric motor. It was discovered (surprise) that it's more efficient at high speed for the gasoline engine to add power to the wheels directly. It's all very complicated actually. I doubt anyone working in their garage could design such a system.

http://www.plugincars.com/e...ric-vehicle-90758.ht
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Report this Post09-14-2016 09:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fieroeddie:
The problem is the system is designed to restart without load. The car would have to be in neutral or the clutch in. The way the IMA and the greenline works is they both restart then add power. It is still against a fluid clutch (IMA is behind a CVT). The brake and vehicle speed is integral to the operation of it. Adding a direct driver induced connection adds a lot of complication. The IMA is more powerful than the greenline alternator/starter. It will have trouble starting a motor and powering the car. Drive both of them, that will give you a better idea of how they work. Not that they can't work in a manual, there are many variables in a way a person drives and how it would restart based on different scenarios. Plus the IMA is direct drive versus an underdriven system on the greenline.


Honda's IMA does come in manual transmission cars.

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Report this Post09-14-2016 07:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't know why people think sticks are an issue. I would think it would require the clutch pressed down all the way when you take your foot off the brake to start the car.
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Report this Post09-14-2016 11:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

I don't know why people think sticks are an issue. I would think it would require the clutch pressed down all the way when you take your foot off the brake to start the car.


that would be a horrible car to drive. Take foot off brake and hope (pray) it restarts? Imagine if there is a hill involved. A manual transmission on a stop/start car is a really bad idea and a huge issue.
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Report this Post09-15-2016 06:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A motor/generator for acceleration assist/regen does not imply start/stop. The engine on a hybrid can continue to idle normally.

Otherwise, on a stick with start/stop, you kill the engine once the car is stopped and in neutral. Once the driver presses the clutch again (in preparation to engage 1/R gear and get going), then you restart the engine.

Besides, on a stick, you shouldn't spend too much time idling in gear with the clutch depressed; that's no good for the clutch release bearing.

The 1st-gen Honda Insight was another stick IMA hybrid.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 09-15-2016).]

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Report this Post09-15-2016 07:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


that would be a horrible car to drive. Take foot off brake and hope (pray) it restarts? Imagine if there is a hill involved. A manual transmission on a stop/start car is a really bad idea and a huge issue.


It's not that bad. It's fine so long as the whole drivetrain is designed for it. A 2.8 isn't. The BAS systems aren't. The Honda IMA system is.
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Report this Post09-21-2016 03:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
https://www.amazon.com/Sump...63ZT9QKD53AAKHBDWH2G
A bit priecy at $1600 and weighs 230+lbs with the 2 AGM batteries included...and provides A/C power, not D/C...but it's an interesting source of 120V power and has inputs for solar(or any other D/C source) recharging...

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Report this Post09-21-2016 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CrytesSend a Private Message to CrytesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Most of the benefits of a hybrid system could be easily achieved using a 3 phase ac motor at each wheel you want to drive. The controller dermines motor speed by varying frequency and if the wheels are spinning faster than the controller demands they act as generators as well as cause electro magnetic drag. As for the starter/generator they make them for small aircraft motors and they are strong enough to spin a direct drive prop while starting and weigh about 75 percent of the combined weight of the starter and alternator separate. So my vote is for an awd hybrid fiero. For information even if the motors sound low torque electric motors supply their rated torque across nearly their entire operating range and any torque applied unloads the engine.
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Report this Post09-22-2016 08:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Do you have a link to those motors?

Also - what do you think about a flywheel storage system for the front wheels? I read Porsche uses something like that for a 150hp 6 second boost in power. Basically, you spin a heavy flywheel to 40,000 rpm via an electric motor, then when you want a boost, it engages the clutch and you get a jolt of acceleration which then disengages so it can be spun up again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...wheel_energy_storage

http://www.hybridcars.com/flywheel-hybrids/

http://www.popularmechanics...t3r-hybrid-flywheel/
flybrids, lol
https://www.theguardian.com...wheel-hybrid-flybrid

http://www.extremetech.com/...heel-25-boost-to-mpg

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-22-2016).]

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Report this Post09-22-2016 10:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fiskers Tesla Honda Toyota and others spend Many Millions of $ on just solving battery issues and still had/have heat problems making the battery to die fast or even catch fires. Yet people think DIY lithium arrays are easy to make? Good luck with that.

If you get batteries w/o problems from the maker, like Samsung current fire recall and older Dell's laptop battery recall. (Dell had contaminated batteries right from the battery manufacturer. https://www.cnet.com/news/d...4-million-batteries/ )

Arrays for cars need proper cooling because charge and discharge make them hot.
Some cars use wet cooling in the battery to remove battery heat.
Other use air cooling and have problems driving in South West states (like Honda leaf) because hot weather makes batteries hot too and running/charge them makes them even hotter.

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[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 09-22-2016).]

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Report this Post09-22-2016 12:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Fiskers Tesla Honda Toyota and others spend Many Millions of $ on just solving battery issues and still had/have heat problems making the battery to die fast or even catch fires. Yet people think DIY lithium arrays are easy to make? Good luck with that.

If you get batteries w/o problems from the maker, like Samsung current fire recall and older Dell's laptop battery recall. (Dell had contaminated batteries right from the battery manufacturer. https://www.cnet.com/news/d...4-million-batteries/ )

Arrays for cars need proper cooling because charge and discharge make them hot.
Some cars use wet cooling in the battery to remove battery heat.
Other use air cooling and have problems driving in South West states (like Honda leaf) because hot weather makes batteries hot too and running/charge them makes them even hotter.

Flywheel storage produces little heat...
Also there is a movement towards capacitors...and a combination there of...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-22-2016).]

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Report this Post09-22-2016 05:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CrytesSend a Private Message to CrytesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Flywheel storage has uses but efficiency is not one of them you spend energy to spin it up and have constant loses between "charge" and use. Current battery technology is a stumbling point and capacitor arrays may be a more viable option for diy. The hub motor I mentioned isn't a specific motor but a form factor more appropriate to installing at the wheels they tend to have low starting torque but being attached directly to the wheel have very little to no transmission losses.
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Report this Post09-23-2016 02:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Crytes:
Flywheel storage has uses but efficiency is not one of them you spend energy to spin it up and have constant loses between "charge" and use. Current battery technology is a stumbling point and capacitor arrays may be a more viable option for diy. The hub motor I mentioned isn't a specific motor but a form factor more appropriate to installing at the wheels they tend to have low starting torque but being attached directly to the wheel have very little to no transmission losses.
Super and Ultra Caps aren't easy either and ignore hype saying better then batteries. Both have very different jobs for the most part.

For one, need to limit charging for each cap or they will have problems. Large arrays have over charge protection built into the array.
Volt per cap at 65°C is only ~2.70v
When you see 5.5v then that product have 2 or more in series. (You find small 5v ones for computers etc.)

See How ultracapacitors work (and why they fall short) GIGAOM
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lou_dias
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Report this Post09-23-2016 12:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Super Capacitors are becoming cheaper and more powerful...and easier to make...
http://www.extremetech.com/...de-with-a-dvd-burner
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Report this Post10-06-2016 12:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I got to see the Tesla drivetrain up close last week in the Tesla store in Santa Monica on the promenade:

https://www.facebook.com/lo...6556145¬if_t=feed
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