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Turn your Fiero into a hybrid! by lou_dias
Started on: 09-08-2016 09:49 AM
Replies: 67 (2105 views)
Last post by: lou_dias on 10-06-2016 12:48 AM
lou_dias
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Report this Post09-08-2016 09:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
http://www.cpowert.com/Products/SpeedStart

This would replace your starter and with a 48v battery setup, can give you some extra torque!

From the pics, it looks belt-driven. For people without A/C, it could probably be mounted there and repurpose the A/C belt or just use a larger serpentine belt.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-08-2016).]

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Report this Post09-08-2016 11:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That is a company offering a partial solution for OEMs to engineer a hybrid setup. it's not something you can just buy and throw into a Fiero to make it a hybrid. It would require very significant engineering to work, and really not something you'd want on the serpentine drive anyway, for driving the wheels.
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Report this Post09-08-2016 11:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

That is a company offering a partial solution for OEMs to engineer a hybrid setup. it's not something you can just buy and throw into a Fiero to make it a hybrid. It would require very significant engineering to work, and really not something you'd want on the serpentine drive anyway, for driving the wheels.


Those "mild" hybrids supplement the engine. Essentially taking a load off of the accessories.

Here's another option:
http://www.honda.co.nz/technology/engine/ima/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201...AOSwZVlXuSsu&vxp=mtr
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Report this Post09-08-2016 03:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
Those "mild" hybrids supplement the engine. Essentially taking a load off of the accessories.


What is a "mild" hybrid?

And how does it alter the load of the accessories? Whether the accessories are driven by an ICE or electric motor is irrelevant, the load will be the same. The "load" on the accessory drive has nothing to do with whether the thing turning the accessories is powered by electricity or combustion.

And none of that changes the fact that the original link you posted is for an OEM supplier. If you want to by 20,000 of those electric motors, sure, maybe it's helpful, but I doubt they will sell a single one to a random person; nor will they solve all the other engineering problems for you (well, unless you pay them an extra few million dollars maybe).
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Report this Post09-08-2016 03:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I like to speculate.

You are quite the Debbie-downer.

If a B-ISG (Belt-driven Integrated Starter/Generator) drives the serpentine belt and produces 8-10 kW (about 11-13.5hp) then it negates the alternator and water pump's drag. You got to read into things rather than take them so literally.

That and a BAS (Belt-drive Alternator/Starter) are known as 'mild' hybrids since they only add about 10-30 hp to an ICE (internal combustion engine).

I spelled out the acronyms for the uninitiated...

Electric motors that physically replace the actual starter (as I said in another thread) are the 'normal' hybrids...

What I like about the Honda setup is that it doesn't take up much more space than a flywheel...

The point I'm getting too is that it doesn't seem that complicated to 'bolt-on' added horsepower to a stock engine vs. adding all the plumbing and computer re-progamming required when adding 'boost' to a motor. These are much simpler solutions that also boost fuel economy rather than take away from it.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-08-2016).]

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Report this Post09-08-2016 03:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
The point I'm getting too is that it doesn't seem that complicated to 'bolt-on' added horsepower to a stock engine vs. adding all the plumbing and computer re-progamming required when adding 'boost' to a motor. These are much simpler solutions that also boost fuel economy rather than take away from it.


Then please take a stock Fiero, bolt one of these things onto the accessory drive, and show us how it adds power, without any other changes. I'm sure plenty of people would love to see that.

Speculation is fun and all, but the title of the thread is "Turn your Fiero into a hybrid!" with absolutely no information about how to do so. Bolting an electric motor into the accessory drive system doesn't make a car a hybrid, mild or otherwise.
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Report this Post09-08-2016 04:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Then please take a stock Fiero, bolt one of these things onto the accessory drive, and show us how it adds power, without any other changes. I'm sure plenty of people would love to see that.

Speculation is fun and all, but the title of the thread is "Turn your Fiero into a hybrid!" with absolutely no information about how to do so. Bolting an electric motor into the accessory drive system doesn't make a car a hybrid, mild or otherwise.

Actually - yes it does. All a hybrid is a power-plant that consists of an ICE and an electric motor.

As for how to do it:
48v batteries are widely available. https://www.amazon.com/Toro...keywords=48v+battery
You can store it in the trunk or run it to the front of the car.
Buy some battery wires and run them to the electric motor.
Buy the gas pedal potentiometer kit and a electric motor controller that regulates how much amperage gets to the electric motor based on pedal position.
You can even wire in solar panels to recharge the battery during the day.
In the case of the 2 products I mentioned on this page, they also offer regenerative braking options built-in.

There are website that sell DIY kits for conversions like this...
NOTE: the different 'types' of hybrids described...

http://alternate-energy-sou...com/hybrid-cars.html
A full hybrid, also called a strong hybrid can run on the engine alone, the batteries only, or on both. The Toyota Prius and Escape are examples.

Assist hybrids use a small gasoline engine for their primary power. The electric motor boosts torque when accelerating or in other situations where more power is required. The Honda Insight is an example of this approach.

A mild hybrid car is essentially a car with a conventional engine boosted by an oversized electric starter motor when extra power is needed. Fuel efficiency is lower than for full hybrids. The Chrevolet Silverado Hybrid, a pick-up truck, is an example. Several other combinations of 'hyb' power are possible.
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Report this Post09-08-2016 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Easy8Send a Private Message to Easy8Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok, this it rich... you think you get energy for free? If you charge the hell out of the batteries and run the car you will get an increase in power and fuel economy. Here is where the hard part comes in. Once that initial charge is used the energy has to come from some where. Guess where, yep that tank of gas you put in the car. The Honda system will charge the system using braking energy but that is way more complicated than a belt driven motor. (you are giving a link to the motor not the computer the controls this system) A simple belt driven starter does not allow regenerative energy recovery. It's purpose is to allow you to stop the ICE when you are stopped at lights ect to save fuel, not to put energy back into the car. So yes you can put some energy into and ICE from a battery... but not for long.

Now let's really look into this set up. Nothing is 100 percent efficient. So every motor and generator wastes some energy when they are used...(heat) So the charging system you would have to use will waste some energy and the belt driven motor has drag.. Both of these have a negative impact on fuel mileage. One last little thing, you have to add in the weight of the motor, batteries and charging system. Once again these are no help to fuel mileage.

In the end I would not say this is a good way to give a car more torque or better fuel economy. Can it be done, yes. Is it this easy...no. However I would say take it on and prove me wrong, would be cool to see a hybrid fiero.
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Report this Post09-08-2016 06:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Actually - yes it does. All a hybrid is a power-plant that consists of an ICE and an electric motor.

As for how to do it:
48v batteries are widely available. https://www.amazon.com/Toro...keywords=48v+battery
You can store it in the trunk or run it to the front of the car.
Buy some battery wires and run them to the electric motor.
Buy the gas pedal potentiometer kit and a electric motor controller that regulates how much amperage gets to the electric motor based on pedal position.
You can even wire in solar panels to recharge the battery during the day.
In the case of the 2 products I mentioned on this page, they also offer regenerative braking options built-in.

There are website that sell DIY kits for conversions like this...
NOTE: the different 'types' of hybrids described...

http://alternate-energy-sou...com/hybrid-cars.html
A full hybrid, also called a strong hybrid can run on the engine alone, the batteries only, or on both. The Toyota Prius and Escape are examples.

Assist hybrids use a small gasoline engine for their primary power. The electric motor boosts torque when accelerating or in other situations where more power is required. The Honda Insight is an example of this approach.

A mild hybrid car is essentially a car with a conventional engine boosted by an oversized electric starter motor when extra power is needed. Fuel efficiency is lower than for full hybrids. The Chrevolet Silverado Hybrid, a pick-up truck, is an example. Several other combinations of 'hyb' power are possible.


The "hybrid" system in the Silverado really wasn't. It barely reduced engine load to give a 2 MPG boost, and mostly it was useful as a 2400 watt generator, with 4 120V AC outlets in the bed of the trucks. GM only made about 3000 of them total over two years, and almost all of them were to fleet sales. In a Fiero, you'd be better off just buying a more efficient alternator and upgrading the primary power and ground wires. You'll get the same fuel economy benefit, and won't have to bother with fitting a huge battery pack into the car, and reducing weight to offset the additional weight of the batteries and motor, not to mention the need to alter the accessory drive to fit it in somehow. The system did not increase, or supply, power to the wheels. It's really no more a hybrid than using an electric water pump would be.

What two products (consumer retail) have you mentioned on this page? The only one I see is a very very tiny 48v Li-Ion battery for a hedge trimmer. Nowhere near strong enough to power a hybrid system. The link in your original post is to an OEM supplier, not a retail ready-to-install kit.
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Report this Post09-08-2016 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for solotwoSend a Private Message to solotwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A mild hybrid car is essentially a car with a conventional engine boosted by an oversized electric starter motor when extra power is needed. Fuel efficiency is lower than for full hybrids. The Chevrolet Silverado Hybrid, a pick-up truck, is an example. Several other combinations of 'hyb' power are possible.

GM did something like this on some of the cars. The alternator also was a motor. I was selling GMC trucks at the time so I didnt pay to much attention to it. It seems like it was on the 4 cyl malibu and a couple of other makes. It didnt seem to sell well. Oh dobey, the The first GM hybrid that you were talking about also had stop/ start. We had a couple at our GMC dealership. Oh and the hybrid that came in the GMC Yukon/chevy tahoe was/is a great system. I sold a few of them. Our sales manager Carl Hosten was one of the first in the county to hold a training session for emergency personal on the hybrid system. He developed a CD for the session. I do believe GM copied it as they did not have any thing on how to approach the vehicle in an emergency. I have one some place in my dresser.

[This message has been edited by solotwo (edited 09-08-2016).]

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Report this Post09-08-2016 09:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What I don't understand is why don't all cars have this as a minimum? We know how to do it, so why have a separate starter and alternator when one device can do both? Then you can add batteries and a stop/start capability for a mild hybrid. I did drive a Malibu with that and it takes some getting used to. When you have old cars like us you have a moment of panic when your engine shuts off by itself..but after a short time you do kind of get used to it. The problem is that sometimes it shuts off and sometimes it doesn't so it's unpredictable.
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Report this Post09-08-2016 09:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
dobey - I listed one. A long time ago on an internet connected to your router, a company called Google created a search engine. The one I listed make about 13 hp. There are others (making over 30hp) and this tech was first debuted around 2001.
But hey, much like grammar police, we have you, I guess...

...and again I quickly googled a 48v battery...
...again, there are others...

there's also such things as donor vehicles in salvage yards, etc.., that can provide batteries...do you even see what people are doing with recycled Tesla car batteries?
/sigh

Also, if you combine a 'giant capacitor' which has high storage but slow discharge and use that to recharge a battery, you can extend it's range, not to mention regenerative braking, not to mention possibly covering something like the spoiler and front of the car with solar panels...
Capacitors are where the research is now but some guy did it year ago then mysteriously died...IIRC.

Even now, glass is being made to produce electricity yet still be see-thru. http://www.extremetech.com/...creen-a-power-source

But hey, this is America and if you want to call the glass half empty, go right ahead.

Believe it or not - next year, I want to eliminate my alternator on my race car and just run a belt to the water pump. I only drive it to the track and for maintenance. I figure integrating solar panels onto my surface along with a battery charge controller will be good enough to get to the track, run my races then drive home. I've drive for 45 minutes straight on a fully charged battery with a dead alternator so I know it can be done.

I've recently built a DIY solar farm at home producing 1.3kW per hour with stuff I bought from Amazon. This stuff is not rocket-science and not expensive when you know exactly what to buy.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-08-2016).]

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Report this Post09-08-2016 10:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I understand Dobey's skepticism. This is not a bolt-on hybrid solution at all. Not that a really smart and innovative person couldn't design and build their own system using this as a building block, but it wouldn't be the easiest thing. Most of us here can turn a wrench and bolt on stuff, but designing a hybrid controller would take quite a few brain cells.
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Report this Post09-08-2016 10:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bolting on the thing to your engine is trivial.

The controls and power electronics is where it would be hard.

Secondary questions arise, like do you need brake by wire on the rear wheels? So that when the regen comes on, it doesn't upset the balance too much?

I guess it would take an effort of two people working full-time for one year on the project to have a hobby-grade proof-of-concept (nothing production-grade)... two people who somewhat know what they're doing.

As for why OEMs don't have the combined alternator/starter? I guess the current setup works "good enough", and there isn't enough perceived benefit given the development costs/risks of delays... cost of new tooling...
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Report this Post09-08-2016 10:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

Bolting on the thing to your engine is trivial.

The controls and power electronics is where it would be hard.

Secondary questions arise, like do you need brake by wire on the rear wheels? So that when the regen comes on, it doesn't upset the balance too much?

I guess it would take an effort of two people working full-time for one year on the project to have a hobby-grade proof-of-concept (nothing production-grade)... two people who somewhat know what they're doing.


As for why OEMs don't have the combined alternator/starter? I guess the current setup works "good enough", and there isn't enough perceived benefit given the development costs/risks of delays... cost of new tooling...


A lot of these systems have controllers built-in. So you'd hook up another line from your brake pedal just like one goes to your ECM now...and from the clutch. So instead of discharging the battery, once the brake is applied, it internally flips and becomes a generator. Cars are modular. For the first unit I mentioned/linked, I'd route the throttle-body coolant lines to it because they are useless for the throttle-body anyway...just saying...
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Report this Post09-08-2016 10:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Probably for the most bolt-on solution, you could try to grab a Malibu setup.

I assume you would need the entire car in good working order, drive it for a while, try to learn its behaviours. You would need to identify the "hybrid controller", if there is such a thing. Hopefully it's not combined with the main ECU.

While the car is still together, you will want to disconnect modules from the car harness, one-by-one, and see if it affects the operation of the hybrid system. Some signals you may need to spoof/emulate in the Fiero, so it would be ideal to get these simulated signals working in the Malibu first. I think you should dumb down the electrical system of the Malibu as much as possible while the Malibu is still driveable.

Ideally, then you would swap the chopped electrical system and powertrain of the Malibu into the Fiero. There will be enough of a challenge just to get it running in the Fiero body...

The next step would be to install the Fiero engine while keeping the Malibu transmission (adapter plate?). You may need to pull crap such as installing the Malibu's trigger wheel on the Fiero engine. Or retrofitting the throttle-by-wire.

The last and probably hardest step would be to replace the Malibu transmission with a manual transmission if desired.

Doing full custom electronics and controls might be easier. You trade the frustration of trying to reverse-engineer someone else's crappy designs for another kind of frustration.

In reality, what we need is an aftermarket standalone motor/generator controller. Kind of like MegaSquirt on steroids.
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Report this Post09-09-2016 12:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

As for why OEMs don't have the combined alternator/starter? I guess the current setup works "good enough", and there isn't enough perceived benefit given the development costs/risks of delays... cost of new tooling...


I'm normally a fan of small government and keeping them out of my business, but in this case I think the Government regulations are eventually going to force stop/start to happen. Think of how much fuel would be saved if every car had stop/start? Think of how much cleaner the air would be in big cities? And if every car had this the additional cost would be negligible and the benefit huge.
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Report this Post09-09-2016 04:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageSend a Private Message to AustralianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Make a bank of capacitors and call it a hybrid at least it contributes towards performance. Why use this frame for economy it was camouflage to build a commuters car in first place the fiero prototype in 78 was a V8.
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Report this Post09-09-2016 10:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I personally wouldn't want to use the serpentine belt to drive the car... seems like a recipe for disaster. But I would like to combine the starter and alternator into a single unit. I've always wondered why that wasn't done in the first place.
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Report this Post09-09-2016 12:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I personally wouldn't want to use the serpentine belt to drive the car... seems like a recipe for disaster. But I would like to combine the starter and alternator into a single unit. I've always wondered why that wasn't done in the first place.

If an engine is built right, you can spin it with a hand-crank...having something on the belt turn it is no big deal...
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Report this Post09-09-2016 04:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was just saying that I wouldn't want to use this device to propel the car like 'real' hybrids do.

Also, using it to assist in turning the belt-driven stuff would either require a massive battery pack, or would only be usable in short bursts.
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Report this Post09-09-2016 07:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I was just saying that I wouldn't want to use this device to propel the car like 'real' hybrids do.

Also, using it to assist in turning the belt-driven stuff would either require a massive battery pack, or would only be usable in short bursts.

Well, I don't know any hybrids that run the electric motor 24/7...

Again this a bolt-on option for small displacement motors to improve fuel economy slightly and provide a slight boost in torque when needed. No one is talking about doing 9's in the 1/4 mile with this.
As battery technology improves, so would this benefit. As for finding a 48v or 60v battery - worst case is 4 or 5 12v batteries in series until you find a better option.
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Report this Post09-09-2016 11:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I was just saying that I wouldn't want to use this device to propel the car like 'real' hybrids do.

Also, using it to assist in turning the belt-driven stuff would either require a massive battery pack, or would only be usable in short bursts.


That's OK.

In stop-and-go traffic, the huge loss is braking; you convert the kinetic energy of the car into heat in the brakes. Then, to get up to speed again (increase the car's kinetic energy), you need to burn fuel to do so.

To me, the main point of a hybrid is to stop the huge waste of energy by the brakes.

In stop-and-go driving, acceleration (from a stop light) is normally preceded by slowing down. In theory, if everything was 100% efficient, stopping with a hybrid wouldn't consume any extra fuel. The energy needed to re-accelerate after the stop would be the same energy stored during the regenerative braking immediately before.

So by this thinking, your battery only needs to store the energy from a single stop in order to produce good fuel savings. Pretty much "short burst" operation.
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Report this Post09-10-2016 09:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Well, I don't know any hybrids that run the electric motor 24/7...

Again this a bolt-on option for small displacement motors to improve fuel economy slightly and provide a slight boost in torque when needed. No one is talking about doing 9's in the 1/4 mile with this.
As battery technology improves, so would this benefit. As for finding a 48v or 60v battery - worst case is 4 or 5 12v batteries in series until you find a better option.


Again this is not a "bolt-on" option. It's a link to a manufacturer's page providing info on something they market to OEMs. A "bolt-on" solution doesn't require buying hundreds or thousands of products from a manufacturer in bulk, fabricating brackets, re-engineering the accessory drive to accommodate the new item, buying additional parts from other manufacturers, and engineering a complete bolt-on kit for a single install. Heck, it would be easier, and probably cheaper, to just swap in the complete hybrid system from a Honda.

Nor does it "provide a slight boost in torque when needed," in a Fiero. The Fiero has none of the sensors and electronics to know when additional torque is needed. Nor would such a small motor on the belt drive provide enough to make any meaningful difference. Remember, electric motors provide peak torque at 0 RPM. To deliver any meaningful torque through the accessory drive, to the drive wheels, "when needed," such a motor would have to be turning much slower than the combustion engine. This would put plenty of stress on the crankshaft snout, as well as on the accessories on the belt drive. It might work reasonably OK on an engine that was designed and built to have one of these motors on the accessory drive, from the beginning (hence the marketing to OEMs here), but it's not something you can just retrofit to any old worn out engine hoping to gain a few HP or MPG. Not to mention the additional weight you'd be putting into the car, for a fully functioning system to even work. Any minor gain in MPG or freed up power in the engine from "boosting" the accessory drive would quickly be negated by the extra weight. I'm sure all of these reasons are probably why GM only had such a solution in their trucks for two years, only selling 3000 trucks, most all of which were to fleet contracts, and replaced it in the GMT900 platform with a real hybrid solution.

What exactly is the point of this thread? To suggest one can turn a Fiero into a hybrid because some manufacturer makes electric motors? To tell people to go search Google when they ask questions in your thread? Or just to call people names, who ask questions in it?

If people really want to impove MPG on a Fiero, there are much simpler things to do than engineering a non-hybrid solution to have a 48V electric motor on the accessory drive to reduce the mechanical losses of the accessory drive, which needs to be water cooled, additional controller modules, and 300 lbs of batteries and cables. Such as:

- Find the optimal tire pressure for the optimal contact patch, and keep the tires at that pressure
- Switch to a quality full synthetic engine oil like Royal Purple or AMSoil
- Switch to a quality full synthetic synchromesh for manual trans, such as Royal Purple or AMSoil
- Keep the car cleaned out (extra junk sitting in the trunk is extra weight)
- Front hood extractor vent (improves cooling, and air flow over the car)
- Install low rolling resistance tires
- Install TPMS to help monitor tire pressure
- Remove spare tire and jack, and carry small 12v compressor instead
- Shift into the highest usable gear as quickly as possible
- 440t4 trans swap in TH125C equipped cars to get overdrive
- Port the exhaust manifolds on the 2.8
- etc…
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Report this Post09-10-2016 09:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
I'm normally a fan of small government and keeping them out of my business, but in this case I think the Government regulations are eventually going to force stop/start to happen. Think of how much fuel would be saved if every car had stop/start? Think of how much cleaner the air would be in big cities? And if every car had this the additional cost would be negligible and the benefit huge.


Every car ever made can't simply be retrofitted with a stop-start hybrid system. The engine must be designed and built to withstand the stress of many recurring stop-start cycles. The engine must also be capable of starting almost instantly. Not sure when the last time you started a Fiero (or any old car with batch fire injectors, TBI, or a carb) is, but they don't exactly fire right up. You really need coil-per-plug and modern fuel injection to make start-stop a decent option, not to mention modern synthetic oils and engine design. The cost to retrofit every car would be astronomical. It would be far cheaper to just expand full electric car capabilities (solar/wind/geothermal generator stations, charging stations for cars, and improved range through aerodynamics, weight reduction, and battery/motor technology), and public transit infrastructure; and it would be far more beneficial to the environment.
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Report this Post09-10-2016 02:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Every car ever made can't simply be retrofitted with a stop-start hybrid system. The engine must be designed and built to withstand the stress of many recurring stop-start cycles. The engine must also be capable of starting almost instantly. Not sure when the last time you started a Fiero (or any old car with batch fire injectors, TBI, or a carb) is, but they don't exactly fire right up. You really need coil-per-plug and modern fuel injection to make start-stop a decent option, not to mention modern synthetic oils and engine design. The cost to retrofit every car would be astronomical. It would be far cheaper to just expand full electric car capabilities (solar/wind/geothermal generator stations, charging stations for cars, and improved range through aerodynamics, weight reduction, and battery/motor technology), and public transit infrastructure; and it would be far more beneficial to the environment.

LMAO! So now you're telling us that internal combustion engines aren't built to handle many start and stop cycles? That's pretty much one of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life.

I've actually driven a 2014 Chevy Impala with this start/stop BAS (belt-driven alternator/starter). If works pretty good and the technology is not rocket science. With the key on the ON position, if you come to a stop and the brake sensor says your foot is on the brake, the fuel can be cut off using the same wire/sensor that shuts off your fuel pump when your oil pressure gets too low. Now, a light turns green, your foot goes off the brake and now is on the gas, the BAS is activate and starts moving the car and fuel injection resumes. When your throttle is say past 75%, the BAS could assist the engine until you're below 75% again. None of this is rocket science and only required separate lines of input: throttle %, brake sensor, key position and battery level. The actual fuel cut-off would be an option controlled by the car's PCM since technically, the engine doesn't need to be shut down, it's just a fuel-saving option. Again - not a rocket-science option. You wouldn't even have to have a dedicated "START" position for the key since just moving it into the ON/RUN position would activate the BAS when you touch the gas pedal.

And in case you didn't know - car OEMs are talking about switching to 48v batteries on a large scale and pretty much every car built soon will be a 'mild hybrid'. You can run 1 [one, uno, aka a single] 36/48/60 volt battery in your car to run everything. 12v is provided to the rest of the car via a DC->DC converter.

So other than winning the Debbie Downer of the Forum award - what do you have against this?

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-10-2016).]

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lou_dias

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PS,

I just fixed the problem on where/how to mount the starter on LS4 + 6-speed swaps.

You're freaking welcome!


http://www.hybridcars.com/b...alternator-starters/

Oh wait, what's this?
https://www.evhangar.com/sy...heps/gm-eassist-bas/
Provides a 20hp(15kW) gain...and look - it's its own module. Shocker!

Here's the older one from the Saturn Vue:
http://acuteaero.com/2011/09/04/gm-bas-alternator/

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-10-2016).]

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Report this Post09-10-2016 03:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

LMAO! So now you're telling us that internal combustion engines aren't built to handle many start and stop cycles? That's pretty much one of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life.

I've actually driven a 2014 Chevy Impala with this start/stop BAS (belt-driven alternator/starter). If works pretty good and the technology is not rocket science. With the key on the ON position, if you come to a stop and the brake sensor says your foot is on the brake, the fuel can be cut off using the same wire/sensor that shuts off your fuel pump when your oil pressure gets too low. Now, a light turns green, your foot goes off the brake and now is on the gas, the BAS is activate and starts moving the car and fuel injection resumes. When your throttle is say past 75%, the BAS could assist the engine until you're below 75% again. None of this is rocket science and only required separate lines of input: throttle %, brake sensor, key position and battery level. The actual fuel cut-off would be an option controlled by the car's PCM since technically, the engine doesn't need to be shut down, it's just a fuel-saving option. Again - not a rocket-science option. You wouldn't even have to have a dedicated "START" position for the key since just moving it into the ON/RUN position would activate the BAS when you touch the gas pedal.

Oh and the 48v option is for people who want more 'performance' out of it. They run on 12v just fine. And in case you didn't know - car OEMs are talking about switching to 48v batteries on a large scale and pretty much every car built soon will be a 'mild hybrid'.

So other than winning the Debbie Downer of the Forum award - what do you have against this?



LMAO. You have horrible reading comprehension I guess. I didn't say the engine couldn't handle many start/stop cycles. However, engines not designed for such hybrid start/stop cycle use, where they are designed to be started once, and then run for a while, and then turned off for a while, and then started later, you know, like the 30 year old engines in the Fiero that were built long ago and don't have all the fancy electronics of modern vehicles, will have significantly increased wear when you drastically increase the number of start/stop cycles. Or maybe you would prefer it in your own language:

 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
You got to read into things rather than take them so literally.


No, none of this is rocket science. However, that doesn't remove science from the problem. Physics still govern how things work in the real world over here. The system is a bit more complex than you make it out to be. You can't just bolt one of these on a Fiero and call it a day. You're welcome to try if you want, but it really does require the sophistication of a modern engine like the 2.4L Ecotec that GM uses this on in the Impala/Malibu/Lacrosse for the eAssist systems.

And if OEMs are talking about these "mild hybrid" solutions coming to market, why does GM keep dropping them from the market? You can't buy a new car with eAssist from GM any more. They've gone full hybrid on the Malibu too now. No, OEMs aren't likely to move to this solution you've presented here, but are far more likely to go full hybrid, or full electric. With increasingly strict emissions and fuel economy requirements over the next 10 years, production of consumer level petrol powered cars is more likely to be phased out, than having 48v start/stop "mild hybrid" systems. If one wants to make their Fiero a hybrid, this is certainly not the best way to go about it.

What do I have agaisnt what? Your name calling? Your insistence that this is somehow a "bolt-in" solution? Your insistence that this will somehow improve the torque output and MPG of a 2.8 in some meaningful way?

So far in this thread that you've basically given "Turn your cow into brisket!" you've literally said "Here's a piece of flint. You've got to read into things rather than take them so literally. Google for it." Well, what good is a thread that just says "Use Google!" in it? Any idiot can say that (and most do).

You want to talk about a bolt-in solution to make a Fiero into some level of hybrid? Fine. Point us at one, and lets talk about it. Preferably without all your lame name calling and telling everyone to figure everything out and engineer a complete solution on their own.
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Report this Post09-11-2016 12:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Word on the street is I can't buy a Fiero off the show floor anymore either so what do I care if full hybrids are the way to go? It increases the boneyard availability of BAS units. Also I had another thread about what a full hybrid is...which is just yet another option on how to turn your Fiero into a hybrid. Belt-driven or flywheel driven is the only difference. The belt-driven alternator based ones are 'mild' and the starter-replacement ones are bigger and hence full/stong hybrids. Doesn't matter to me which way to go, but going full hybrid in a Fiero would require some work on the subframe to clear the oversized-starter/generator motor. Hence a BAS is a simpler and achievable solution.

Funny how you are changing your tone. First it was impossible and not worth it and now your tone is changing to 'well it's possible but GM is going full hybrid anyway'.
Perhaps googling more in advance on the feasibility of such things will prevent you from making the types of posts you are all too well known for...

FYI - in my race car, as I've mentioned before - I will be researching installing a BAS. I have no interest in start/stop fuel savings. I simply want 15-30 bolt-on horsepower and torque. If I can also eliminate my starter motor, then it's a double bonus.
As for the purpose of this thread - it's to see if there any other like-minded enthusiasts out there so we can collaborate on doing it. You need not apply.
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lou_dias

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More info for non-Debbie-Downers:

https://www.cheersandgears....with-eassist-system/

Seems like the 115v battery is just a bunch of 12v batteries in series with an integrated DC->DC inverter to supply 12v to the rest of the car.



[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-11-2016).]

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Report this Post09-11-2016 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Personally, I'd like to have a starter / alternator unit, simply to save a few pounds of weight. Plus, a belt-driven starter / alternator would let you get rid of the ring gear on the flywheel. Less rotating mass means more power to the wheels.
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Report this Post09-11-2016 05:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Personally, I'd like to have a starter / alternator unit, simply to save a few pounds of weight. Plus, a belt-driven starter / alternator would let you get rid of the ring gear on the flywheel. Less rotating mass means more power to the wheels.


But the belt driven starter/alternator is going to weigh more than your standard 12v alternator and ring gear combined, then you've also got the extra weight of the additional wiring (more 0 gauge cables), the high-voltage battery pack, and the inverter to charge the 12v battery and power the 12v accessories. So I don't think there will be any actual weight savings here. More likely you will be adding a fair bit of weight to the car.
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Report this Post09-11-2016 05:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
Word on the street is I can't buy a Fiero off the show floor anymore either so what do I care if full hybrids are the way to go? It increases the boneyard availability of BAS units. Also I had another thread about what a full hybrid is...which is just yet another option on how to turn your Fiero into a hybrid. Belt-driven or flywheel driven is the only difference. The belt-driven alternator based ones are 'mild' and the starter-replacement ones are bigger and hence full/stong hybrids. Doesn't matter to me which way to go, but going full hybrid in a Fiero would require some work on the subframe to clear the oversized-starter/generator motor. Hence a BAS is a simpler and achievable solution.

Funny how you are changing your tone. First it was impossible and not worth it and now your tone is changing to 'well it's possible but GM is going full hybrid anyway'.
Perhaps googling more in advance on the feasibility of such things will prevent you from making the types of posts you are all too well known for...

FYI - in my race car, as I've mentioned before - I will be researching installing a BAS. I have no interest in start/stop fuel savings. I simply want 15-30 bolt-on horsepower and torque. If I can also eliminate my starter motor, then it's a double bonus.
As for the purpose of this thread - it's to see if there any other like-minded enthusiasts out there so we can collaborate on doing it. You need not apply.


I never said it was completely impossible. I haven't "changed" my tone at all. I said it's not feasible to do on a 30 year old engine. If you want to swap in a modern efficiency engine that's designed to work with these systems, by all means do so. If you think you can make something work with a 30 year old 60 degree V6, then by all means try to do so.

Going full hybrid on a Fiero doesn't require any significant alteration of the subframe. One could swap in a Honda or Toyota hybrid drivetrain fairly easily. Certainly it would be no more difficult than swapping in a 3800.

So what if you do manage to somehow get 15-30 lbs-ft more torque at the flywheel. At what RPM would that be at? How long would that last? How long will it take to recharge the batteries enough to supply that power for that time? Will it even actually matter with the increased weight?

If your intent is to see if there any other like-minded enthusiasts out there so we can collaborate on doing it as you say, then it would be good to perhaps state so in your first post, rather than simply providing a link with basically no information on what you are trying to do, suggesting that others could perhaps buy a product direct from an OEM supplier and magically turn their car into a hybrid. It also means that you need to understand that people will ask questions and raise concerns. Telling other people to go search google for it doesn't help anyone. It just means your thread was pointless from the start, because you're not interested in discussing things. You just want people to go find things on Google, and then agree with you. I'm sorry you live in your little Google bubble, but that's not how real life works.

Now stop with the name calling already.
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Report this Post09-11-2016 08:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


I never said it was completely impossible. I haven't "changed" my tone at all. I said it's not feasible to do on a 30 year old engine. If you want to swap in a modern efficiency engine that's designed to work with these systems, by all means do so. If you think you can make something work with a 30 year old 60 degree V6, then by all means try to do so.

Going full hybrid on a Fiero doesn't require any significant alteration of the subframe. One could swap in a Honda or Toyota hybrid drivetrain fairly easily. Certainly it would be no more difficult than swapping in a 3800.

So what if you do manage to somehow get 15-30 lbs-ft more torque at the flywheel. At what RPM would that be at? How long would that last? How long will it take to recharge the batteries enough to supply that power for that time? Will it even actually matter with the increased weight?

If your intent is to see if there any other like-minded enthusiasts out there so we can collaborate on doing it as you say, then it would be good to perhaps state so in your first post, rather than simply providing a link with basically no information on what you are trying to do, suggesting that others could perhaps buy a product direct from an OEM supplier and magically turn their car into a hybrid. It also means that you need to understand that people will ask questions and raise concerns. Telling other people to go search google for it doesn't help anyone. It just means your thread was pointless from the start, because you're not interested in discussing things. You just want people to go find things on Google, and then agree with you. I'm sorry you live in your little Google bubble, but that's not how real life works.

Now stop with the name calling already.

15 years ago, no one thought we'd see OBD2 in a Fiero - what do we have now?
As for weight, the battery/controller unit is 66lbs...about twice the weight of a normal battery. Yes, the BAS is heavier than an alternator but DO THE MATH. If I could add 20rwhp to a Fiero and only 100 lbs - then yes - it's totally worth it. Stock, the v6 Fiero has about a 20:1 weight to power ratio and adding 20 hp for 100 lbs is only a 5:1 ratio - so yes - the extra weight - especially when most of it is mounted in the front of the car [for convenient cooling] - is worth it.

If the unit does indeed proved a secondary 12v source, then the factory 30+ lbs battery can be eliminated. Now we're only looking at a 70lbs gain for 20hp. The BAS needs cooling and I would run the coolant lines that normally go to the TPS to it instead.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-11-2016).]

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Report this Post09-11-2016 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
15 years ago, no one thought we'd see OBD2 in a Fiero - what do we have now?
As for weight, the battery/controller unit is 66lbs...about twice the weight of a normal battery. Yes, the BAS is heavier than an alternator but DO THE MATH. If I could add 20rwhp to a Fiero and only 100 lbs - then yes - it's totally worth it. Stock, the v6 Fiero has about a 20:1 weight to power ratio and adding 20 hp for 100 lbs is only a 5:1 ratio - so yes - the extra weight - especially when most of it is mounted in the front of the car [for convenient cooling] - is worth it.

If the unit does indeed proved a secondary 12v source, then the factory 30+ lbs battery can be eliminated. Now we're only looking at a 70lbs gain for 20hp. The BAS needs cooling and I would run the coolant lines that normally go to the TPS to it instead.


People are running a 2.8/3.4 with OBD-II systems? Whom? I've never seen one. What does swapping to an OBD-II based engine platform have to do with anything that you've suggested in this thread?

I've done the math. First you were talking about 15-30 lbs-ft increase, and now you're talking about 20 HP. Which one is it? They are very different things. And did you even read the questions I wrote about that in my previous post? At what RPM are you expecting to make this extra power? How long do you think you'll be able to make the extra power? Do you have a crankshaft that can handle the stress? What about the water pump?

The GM eAssist setups are not designed to be supplemental drive power in race cars. I think you're going to need a fair bit more battery than the 100lbs system gives, if you intend to use it to provide additional power in racing, rather than for passing cars on the highway at cruising speeds, and for any meaningful amount of time. You'll also need to do some engineering on the accessory drive, as these are designed to provide what little extra power they can, at lower engine speeds than you assuredly will be running at in a race.
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Report this Post09-11-2016 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


People are running a 2.8/3.4 with OBD-II systems? Whom? I've never seen one. What does swapping to an OBD-II based engine platform have to do with anything that you've suggested in this thread?

I've done the math. First you were talking about 15-30 lbs-ft increase, and now you're talking about 20 HP. Which one is it? They are very different things. And did you even read the questions I wrote about that in my previous post? At what RPM are you expecting to make this extra power? How long do you think you'll be able to make the extra power? Do you have a crankshaft that can handle the stress? What about the water pump?

The GM eAssist setups are not designed to be supplemental drive power in race cars. I think you're going to need a fair bit more battery than the 100lbs system gives, if you intend to use it to provide additional power in racing, rather than for passing cars on the highway at cruising speeds, and for any meaningful amount of time. You'll also need to do some engineering on the accessory drive, as these are designed to provide what little extra power they can, at lower engine speeds than you assuredly will be running at in a race.


You're really reaching now. HP is directly related to torque. HP is what's advertised and GM quoted a 20hp gain on the 2.4 ecotech. You're arguments are just going in circles now.
Also saying "The GM eAssist setups are not designed to be supplemental drive power in race cars." is a joke. What makes something a race car is what I decide it to be vs. my daily driver. In other words, I don't need additional complexity of start/stop functionality when I only care about being able to activate the torque/hp boosting capability of the unit when I'm at the track.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-11-2016).]

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Report this Post09-12-2016 06:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


I'm normally a fan of small government and keeping them out of my business, but in this case I think the Government regulations are eventually going to force stop/start to happen. Think of how much fuel would be saved if every car had stop/start? Think of how much cleaner the air would be in big cities? And if every car had this the additional cost would be negligible and the benefit huge.


But would the wear and tare of starting /stopping a fuel burning engine, with no oil psi.. make enough of a dent to make it worth it, in the real world, when you add in the energy and emissions to build the vehicles.. if the start/stop takes 100k off a drive trains useful life.. and you have to replace it or the whole vehicle??
That is a huge problem with all the save the earth, stuff.. if part of the math is out of sight, they don't add it to the formula of emissions/cleaner air/etc.
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Report this Post09-12-2016 09:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
You're really reaching now. HP is directly related to torque. HP is what's advertised and GM quoted a 20hp gain on the 2.4 ecotech. You're arguments are just going in circles now.
Also saying "The GM eAssist setups are not designed to be supplemental drive power in race cars." is a joke. What makes something a race car is what I decide it to be vs. my daily driver. In other words, I don't need additional complexity of start/stop functionality when I only care about being able to activate the torque/hp boosting capability of the unit when I'm at the track.


No, HP is a function of both torque AND RPM. And exactly, the quoted gain is on a specific engine that was built to be used with the system, not on any generic engine, at an arbitrary RPM. It's also not a gain in peak output, but a supplemental value at a specific point in the engine's operating range, meant to improve MPG, not peak output. It's for helping when starting from a dead stop and when initiating a pass at a cruising speed. In the first case, most of the torque from the electric motor is being used to start the combustion engine, while only part of it will result in forward motion of the vehicle. In the latter case, the engine is at a low RPM outside the optimal torque range for passing. The electric motor is used to give a little push when starting a passing maneuver, just before the trans is shifted into a lower gear to move the engine into the needed operating range. This is how it helps give an extra MPG or two in the vehicles so equipped. That Ecotec also has a properly designed accessory drive to accommodate the starter/generator, and is installed in full size sedans with enough sensors and electronics necessary for it to operate correctly.

What you are proposing is to rig an incomplete solution onto an engine in a vehicle that were not in any way remotely designed for such a device, and to use that device in a way it was not designed for. And instead of actually reading anything I've typed on here, you continually resort to insults and name calling.

I never said you need the start/stop functionality at the track (or at all). My only real mention of it was in reply to other people asking about the feature and why it's not in every car, and can't be easily retrofitted to older engines. However, my points about the RPM of the electric motor in relation to the RPM of the combustion engine for applying said additional torque, still stands. You will need much more battery capacity for storage of enough energy to make a difference, and significant consideration must be given to the accessory drive to properly accommodate said motor, without breaking your crankshaft in two.

In any case, I would still say this is going to be a much more involved and expensive adventure, than just throwing a 50 shot of NOS on the car. And is it even legal in the class you race in, to do it?
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lou_dias
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Report this Post09-12-2016 02:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
NOS is not allowed.

I can't believe you bothered to mention how torque and horsepower is related...like I didn't know...LMAO! The reality is, one is power and the other is derived acceleration. Yes, I did take calculus.

Considering you haven't seen the pinout of the controller, you sure do claim to know a lot about the complexity of it.
Again, the rated power of these different BAS units in kW is what is quoted as the gain, so you are wrong again.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/lea/
http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/lcv/

So these are two different engines with a 0.1 difference in displacement, but you can see a 20hp gain at about 400 rpm lower when comparing peaks.

Other units are rated with different power. I've seen some rated at 35kW. You're inability to google so find actual possibilities still boggles my mind. You simply nit-pick people's posts like grammar-police.

Perhaps you'd like to debunk this scientific paper on them: http://www.iea.lth.se/publi...ses/LTH-IEA-1067.pdf

Stop being wrong - better yet - stop complaining that somebody wants to add a BAS to a Fiero because if someone does - it's none of your concern. If you have no interest in a thread - just stay out of it.

When someone wants to waste their time swapping a full 3400 motor into their car instead of a simpler (parts availability) and more powerful 3800SC, I don't go troll their thread (but people do love to troll mine about my iron head 3.4). I just butt-out.
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ITR SOL
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Report this Post09-12-2016 04:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ITR SOLSend a Private Message to ITR SOLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry, I keep getting confused....

First off, it is a pretty interesting concept, and would be cool to see someone find a way to integrate it somehow.

Second, did you guys measure yet, and if so, who had the bigger one? Wait, nevermind, I'm not really that interested.

Carry on.
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