not one person would give one crap of what happens in the middle east if it were not for the oil.
it would just be another Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, or some other random African/asian Give A Crap country.
would be nice if every penny of US taxpayer dollars which ends up getting used for the middle east came exclusively from Gasoline Taxes. I am sure "the wars" would have been MUCH MUCH shorter, if they had to be paid for at the Gasoline Pumps. But, responsibility is not the strong suit of these folk, eh?
I think that would be a good idea as long as it was also tied to all other forms of energy end use--consumer end use. Heating oil, electricty, propane etc.
We have since the mid 70s, picked our wars based on the mobility we would encounter there, not on what natural resources they have. We don't go into jungles anymore--learned the pitfalls of thatin Vietnam. We haven't invaded Nigeria either--not because of how much oil they have (a lot) but because of the terrain, but you are free to continue with your rhetorical spouting and decision making based on poor information--after all, it just sounds sooo good.
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02:51 PM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
Not surprised at all you would agree with him. I think your Arab comment shows the world you are an ignorant bigot.
Oh, thank you, kind sir. Care to explain or where you finished? Is it because some of the peoples in the area are, in fact, not Arabs (e.g. the Persians) or is it something else?
I think he made a good point that some regions of the world apparently warrant more decisive action by "the West" than others.
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04:00 PM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
We have since the mid 70s, picked our wars based on the mobility we would encounter there, not on what natural resources they have. We don't go into jungles anymore--learned the pitfalls of thatin Vietnam. We haven't invaded Nigeria either--not because of how much oil they have (a lot) but because of the terrain, but you are free to continue with your rhetorical spouting and decision making based on poor information--after all, it just sounds sooo good.
Based on that there would not be many places left... no jungles, no arid areas, no mountainous areas, no urban areas....
Arid areas and cities are generally not much of a problem. Lots easier to do the house to house thing than tree to tree. Even hilly terrain is managable--Marines train at Camp Pendelton Calif and war game at Twenty Nine Palms Air Ground Combat Center Calif--in use since the 50s.. US Army primary OPFOR base is the combined forces National Training Base at Ft Irwin Calif, and has been for decades.
every excuse for the wars in the middle east circles back to oil.
this BS should be paid for with taxes on oil/gas.
want to send stacks of cash to isreal? sure. get from Gasoline taxes. want to send Carriers to the Gulf? sure. pay for it with Gasoline taxes. and so on.
put the burden on the cause. can still do whatcha like, just put the cost where it belongs.
Oh, thank you, kind sir. Care to explain or where you finished? Is it because some of the peoples in the area are, in fact, not Arabs (e.g. the Persians) or is it something else?
I think he made a good point that some regions of the world apparently warrant more decisive action by "the West" than others.
I think you are the one who could not think of any reason at all to save Arab people other than oil, so it must be oil, nice try.
Either YOU said it or YOU agreed with the other poster, not me. We've done this rodeo here before and all the excuses are just deflection, those very sentiments you and pyrth have against Arabs just scream bigotry against religion or ethnicity and those that do not buy the line like me are bad. The oil war mantra is just ignorant and is not defendable. We will wait for another Bill Mar clip for evidence from you though so you can dig deeper.
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04:34 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by Red88FF: I think you are the one who could not think of any reason at all to save Arab people other than oil, so it must be oil, nice try.
Either YOU said it or YOU agreed with the other poster, not me. We've done this rodeo here before and all the excuses are just deflection, those very sentiments you and pyrth have against Arabs just scream bigotry against religion or ethnicity and those that do not buy the line like me are bad. The oil war mantra is just ignorant and is not defendable. We will wait for another Bill Mar clip for evidence from you though so you can dig deeper.
ok then - stop with the deflection and tell us what oil wars are really for.
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04:46 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37880 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Pyrthian: - the Oil Wars are over. ... got nothing. ... nice waste of at least $5Trillion.
Tell me oh great spreader of manure. What made it an oil war ? You have a source for the five trillion dollar cost ? No, no you don't.
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian: not one person would give one crap of what happens in the middle east if it were not for the oil. ... it would just be another Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, or some other random African/asian Give A Crap country.
Only someone with their head deep up their azz could have that much zhit for brains. No wonder you can not see what is going on. Almost every nation on Earth supported the UN Resolution(s) against Iraq and joined the coalition against Iraq . Saddam talked as much zhit as you. Look where that got him. The Dumbocrats voted to use military force to depose Saddam. Almost 100% in unison.
quote
Originally posted by yellowstone: What else makes the Arabs so special?
They put their women on pedestals. They are inclusive of all religions. They are tolerant of different opinions. They raise their children to become model citizens of the world. They spread love around the world. They all get 70 virgins for acts of kindness.
Originally posted by cliffw: Only someone with their head deep up their azz could have that much zhit for brains. No wonder you can not see what is going on. Almost every nation on Earth supported the UN Resolution(s) against Iraq and joined the coalition against Iraq . Saddam talked as much zhit as you. Look where that got him. The Dumbocrats voted to use military force to depose Saddam. Almost 100% in unison..
yes, and Saddam did not get to that point selling Persian Rugs or building Sand Castles, did he? Oil.
he'd just be a loud mouth that no one gave a squat about without the oil.
and, continuing with you example. no one is going to war with me? I am apparantly "talking zhit". no UN resolutions coming my way. why not? because I dont control OIL.
and, back to topic - bolster that military budget with Gasoline Taxes to use for the middle east tax dollar sink hole. gonna use them to defend stable oil prices, put the cost where it belongs. they'll get all the $$$ they need to keep the oil supply stable.
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05:08 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by Red88FF: I am not the defector here but say I am enough then you might believe it too.
Now, picture that ole lady from the "where's the beef?" commercial.
Where's the oil?
Mass murders, threats, sanctions, WMD's, UN resolutions, bla bla bla we've done this all before here. I will wait for your anti Semite rant next.
mass murder happen before and after the Oil Wars, with no response "threats". kinda vague, eh? but, them are daily, with no war response. sanctions? Iraq Sanctioned someone? curious. WMDs. uh huh. we can skip this, but, where did they come from? trading Persian Rugs? UN resolutions. which came from what? yes - bla bla bla - we HAVE done this all before. and it comes back to OIL.
hey, dont worry - I am not upset about Iraq. I just wish that it would be paid for. someday. and, Gasoline Taxes seems a perfect way to eventually start putting some pennies towards it, instead of just letting it pile up. c'mon - take some responsibility. help pay for the Oil Wars. at least get the day 1 paid for.
mass murder happen before and after the Oil Wars, with no response "threats". kinda vague, eh? but, them are daily, with no war response. sanctions? Iraq Sanctioned someone? curious. WMDs. uh huh. we can skip this, but, where did they come from? trading Persian Rugs? UN resolutions. which came from what? yes - bla bla bla - we HAVE done this all before. and it comes back to OIL.
hey, dont worry - I am not upset about Iraq. I just wish that it would be paid for. someday. and, Gasoline Taxes seems a perfect way to eventually start putting some pennies towards it, instead of just letting it pile up. c'mon - take some responsibility. help pay for the Oil Wars. at least get the day 1 paid for.
You didn't answer.
Where's the oil?
If it's an oil war... where's the oil benefit for our country?
every excuse for the wars in the middle east circles back to oil.
this BS should be paid for with taxes on oil/gas.
want to send stacks of cash to isreal? sure. get from Gasoline taxes. want to send Carriers to the Gulf? sure. pay for it with Gasoline taxes. and so on.
put the burden on the cause. can still do whatcha like, just put the cost where it belongs.
Prove it (you saying it over and over is not proof) People have asked you questions--answer them.
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06:05 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37880 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Pyrthian: I just wish that it would be paid for. someday. and, Gasoline Taxes seems a perfect way to eventually start putting some pennies towards it, instead of just letting it pile up. c'mon - take some responsibility. help pay for the Oil Wars. at least get the day 1 paid for.
Call your 'bro in the White House. He can make it happen. He hates the oil companies. He voted against action in Iraq. He is the "man". He could even use the money he is cutting from defense to pay for the war. Funny how that works, .
His imperial highness emperor with out clothes, Obumbles bufoon clown show parade has seriously slashed America America is endangered the atheist democrats are comming for your guns!spearheaded by the imperial bufoons 2 appointments to the Supreme Court..
The Obumble future is comming !much, much worse than now
I have to say that I don't think it's just Pyrthian saying the Iraq war was largely based on oil. I don't think it's that hard an argument to make, whether it be true or not.
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Bush's Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill said that Bush's first two National Security Council meetings included a discussion of invading Iraq. He was given briefing materials entitled "Plan for post-Saddam Iraq," which envisioned peacekeeping troops, war crimes tribunals, and divvying up Iraq's oil wealth. A Pentagon document dated March 5, 2001 was titled "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield contracts," and included a map of potential areas for exploration.
In July 2003, the Polish foreign minister, Wlodzimierz Cimoszewicz, said, "We have never hidden our desire for Polish oil companies to finally have access to sources of commodities." This remark came after a group of Polish firms had just signed a deal with Kellogg, Brown and Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton. Cimoszewicz stated that access to Iraq's oilfields "is our ultimate objective".
One report by BBC journalist Gregory Palast citing unnamed "insiders" alleged that the U.S. "called for the sell-off of all of Iraq's oil fields" and planned for a coup d'état in Iraq long before September 11. It was also alleged by the BBC's Greg Palast that the "new plan was crafted by neo-conservatives intent on using Iraq's oil to destroy the OPEC cartel through massive increases in production above OPEC quotas", but in reality Iraq oil production decreased following the Iraq War.
Chuck Hagel, the current United States Secretary of Defense, while speaking at the Catholic University of America Columbus School of Law in 2008 defended Greesnpan's comments with, "People say we're not fighting for oil. Of course we are." General John Abizaid, CENTCOM commander from 2003 until 2007, said of the Iraq war during a round table discussion at Stanford University in 2008, "Of course it's about oil, we can't really deny that."
Many critics have focused upon administration officials' past relationship with energy sector corporations. Both the President and Vice President were formerly CEOs of oil and oil-related companies such as Arbusto, Harken Energy, Spectrum 7, and Halliburton. Before the 2003 invasion of Iraq and even before the War on Terror, the administration had prompted anxiety over whether the private sector ties of cabinet members (including National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, former director of Chevron, and Commerce Secretary Donald Evans, former head of Tom Brown Inc.) would affect their judgment on energy policy. None of these officials, however, were in a position to benefit from energy policy decisions;[citation needed] all of the relationships had been severed before taking office.
News outlets in mid-2000-2002 carried articles about Saddam's efforts to sell oil on markets exclusively in Euros. This may have been viewed as a push to influence other OPEC states to challenge the reserve currency status in oil trading of the USD. This may have been an unacceptable outcome in the global economy with respect to the flow of petrodollars through the region.
Prior to the war, the CIA saw Iraqi oil production and illicit oil sales as Iraq’s key method of financing increasing WMD capability. The CIA’s October 2002 unclassified white paper on "Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs," states on page 1 under the “Key Judgments, Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs” heading that “Iraq’s growing ability to sell oil illicitly increases Baghdad’s capabilities to finance WMD programs”.
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 02-26-2014).]
Trying to stop Iraq from having a revenue with which to pay for an increased military presence is not what I call going to war for a resource. That's like saying we bombed industrial Germany just so we could get their ball bearings. I guess we needed Vietnam's rice too. Thank gawd tho, we did finally get all those Hyundai and Kia automobiles we fought so hard for in S. Korea.
(Anyone know of a foreign country that has a decent flyin car industry?)
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-26-2014).]
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06:20 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37880 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
and, back to topic - bolster that military budget with Gasoline Taxes to use for the middle east tax dollar sink hole. gonna use them to defend stable oil prices, put the cost where it belongs. they'll get all the $$$ they need to keep the oil supply stable.
Well, there are a few other things that are made out of oil... so using gas taxes to pay for wars wouldn't be exactly fair. If a nation decides to goes to war, everybody needs to pay for this with increased taxes (and definitely not tax cuts). That and the draft may keep governments from going to war except as a very last resort.
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 02-26-2014).]
The average US household owns 2 cars. Less than 1 in 10 US households does NOT have a car. That means over 90% pf US households have at least 1 car.
That, is a pretty high % of potential taxpayers. You would be hard pressed to find another single US demographic with similarly high numbers. The % of Americans who don't pay income tax is much lower as is the # of Americans with jobs.
Conscription to military service has never really stopped a country from going to war. 18 yr olds still have to register here and the infrastructure for actually implementing a draft is but a vote and signature away.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-26-2014).]
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06:40 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37880 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by yellowstone: If a nation decides to goes to war, everybody needs to pay for this with increased taxes (and definitely not tax cuts).
Yes, because the need for war is obvious years in advance. Budgets are planned out (don't ask me why) with ten year projections. Tax cuts have produced more tax revenue.
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06:40 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37880 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Are you looking at lifetime costs? You only pay a contractor when you need him, not before and not after. You also don't have any other obligations such as hardware, healthcare, retirement costs etc.
If it's an oil war... where's the oil benefit for our country?
Every barrel that China or Japan or some other country gets from the Middle East is a barrel that people here don't have to outbid those other buyers to get for their domestic use. A barrel from the Middle East that goes to Japan (for example) is one barrel less from any U.S.-sited rig that could otherwise have been exported to Japan instead of supplying the U.S. domestic market. So if the Middle East supplies were massively interrupted, it would effect us here.
As it stands, I'm not sure that Iraq is back up to the productions levels that they were maintaining under Saddam.
But that's how I understand the theory of it, anyway.
Israel just signed a contract to supply natural gas from one of their newly discovered plays to Jordan.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 02-26-2014).]
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07:40 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37880 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Quoted by who ? Who is twisting words into their own narrative ? Are they in context ? I don't have time for some one to make up proof. I am gonna be dead in twenty years.
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07:43 PM
PFF
System Bot
cliffw Member
Posts: 37880 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Every barrel that China or Japan or some other country gets from the Middle East is a barrel that people here don't have to outbid those other buyers to get for their domestic use. A barrel from the Middle East that goes to Japan (for example) is one barrel less from any U.S.-sited rig that could otherwise have been exported to Japan instead of supplying the U.S. domestic market. So if the Middle East supplies were massively interrupted, it would effect us here.
As it stands, I'm not sure that Iraq is back up to the productions levels that they were maintaining under Saddam.
But that's how I understand the theory of it, anyway.
Israel just signed a contract to supply natural gas from one of their newly discovered plays to Jordan.
It would affect everyone everywhere--us, less adversely than most. (currently, we are a net exporter of crude oil and crude oil products--but only barely) Oil is a global commodity, prices are set on the global market depending on demand and supply basics. Mostly, it would affect price. If supply drops, price goes up if demand stays the same or goes up. Our oil would be worth more should their be a major disruption in the supply chain anywhere in the world today or a sudden increase in demand globally.
(Not saying we don't import some oil-we do due to our dependence on low sulphur crude)
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08:27 PM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
Yes, because the need for war is obvious years in advance. Budgets are planned out (don't ask me why) with ten year projections.
True but as I understand it, a supplemental budget can be approved by Congress at any time. And taxes raised to pay for a war (that Congress should declare, too). Right?
True but as I understand it, a supplemental budget can be approved by Congress at any time. And taxes raised to pay for a war (that Congress should declare, too). Right?
Easier than it sounds. We don't really do the annual budget thing anymore--just Continuing Resolutions to keep everything running for a set period of time. I think the last time we actually had a federal budget passed and signed was April 2009. Everything since has been continuing resolutions.
The very first war the US fought was well under way before Congress was even notified and they never did declare war, tho they did eventually vote to approve of the president's actions. That, was in 1802 the 1st Barbary Pirate War and President was Thomas Jefferson. Formal declarations of war are just that--a formality--a piece of paper. None for Korea-Vietnam-Panama-Iraq-Kuwait-Grenada-Afghanistan-Nicaragua-Quasi War-Bosnia/Croatia, or any of the others since the Korean War (conflict) 5 times we have gone the formal route. War of 1812 Spanish American War Mexican American War. WW1 WW2
Every barrel that China or Japan or some other country gets from the Middle East is a barrel that people here don't have to outbid those other buyers to get for their domestic use. A barrel from the Middle East that goes to Japan (for example) is one barrel less from any U.S.-sited rig that could otherwise have been exported to Japan instead of supplying the U.S. domestic market. So if the Middle East supplies were massively interrupted, it would effect us here.
As it stands, I'm not sure that Iraq is back up to the productions levels that they were maintaining under Saddam.
But that's how I understand the theory of it, anyway.
Israel just signed a contract to supply natural gas from one of their newly discovered plays to Jordan.
So we don't have to give away our domestic production to other countries? That seems a little long-winded to me. It's a global market, but still.
I don't see an oil war. At all. Does it benefit us? Sure. But to think that's the main reason for the war? Or even a secondary one? Far-fetched IMO.
Trying to stop Iraq from having a revenue with which to pay for an increased military presence is not what I call going to war for a resource. That's like saying we bombed industrial Germany just so we could get their ball bearings. I guess we needed Vietnam's rice too. Thank gawd tho, we did finally get all those Hyundai and Kia automobiles we fought so hard for in S. Korea.
(Anyone know of a foreign country that has a decent flyin car industry?)
LOL! exactly.....
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11:09 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37880 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by rinselberg: So if the Middle East supplies were massively interrupted, it would effect us here.
A massively interrupted fuel supply would affect us here. It would affect the whole western world. Last time I looked it up, that was a national security interest. A western hemisphere security interest. A free market security interest. Does that make it about the oil ? It wasn't about oil, it was about blood. Georgie Boy was after Saddam blood. Saddam once tried to kill his dad. That's the other conspiracy theory.
No wonder you can not see what is going on.
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