...According to the United States Geological Survey, lead usage in ammunition makes up only about three percent of lead consumption in the United States. Lead-acid batteries make up the vast majority of U.S. lead consumption, and these batteries are readily recycled. This recycled lead, which will still be able to be smelted in the United States at secondary smelters even after the Herculaneum smelter closes, is the type most often used by ammunition manufacturers...
...In any case, the bottom line for consumers is that ammunition producers do not expect the smelter's closure to lead to any imminent impact on the price or availability of lead ammunition components. While many factors can affect the market for ammunition, this particular facility's closure should not have the dramatic impact that some have predicted...
Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: Just give me the plane....I'll figure out on my own what to fire out of it...
I know, didn't the Germans in WWII use wooden bullets? I mean how hard is it to carve a slug out of wood, or turn them on a lathe. A little bit of Yankee ingenuity and you can make your own bullets.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Lead is the perfect metal for bullets. Soft, can be rifled, mushrooms, and has a good heavy weight. They want to replace it with cooper, which is very expensive. Wood, as someone mentioned, is too light and will fragment. Lead can still be extracted at home, since it melts at low temperatures and will always be plentiful in batteries. Make sure you do it outside.
The EPA is behind this, meaning the government. They are saying lead is very toxic and people that are handling bullets are suffering from it's toxicity. Seriously, how much handling do you do with bullets?
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10:08 PM
PFF
System Bot
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
Lead is the perfect metal for bullets. Soft, can be rifled, mushrooms, and has a good heavy weight. They want to replace it with cooper, which is very expensive. Wood, as someone mentioned, is too light and will fragment. Lead can still be extracted at home, since it melts at low temperatures and will always be plentiful in batteries. Make sure you do it outside.
The EPA is behind this, meaning the government. They are saying lead is very toxic and people that are handling bullets are suffering from it's toxicity. Seriously, how much handling do you do with bullets?
Considering all of mine are jacketed, does it really matter?
Just give me the plane....I'll figure out on my own what to fire out of it...
Yeah, but good luck figuring out how to fire from it. The front gun's pretty easy. There's a switch just below the left MFD that, when flipped in the up position arms it. But for the rest of the weapons on board? Well, the AGM-65 needs 3 minutes to align, then you have to slew the tracking gimbal over your target while flying the plane fairly straight-and-level, hold it over your intended target until lock, make sure you're in armed and not train, and pull the trigger. Easier said than done though because you're doing this all through an archaic 1970's MFCD flight system.
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11:33 PM
Dec 19th, 2013
V8 Vega Member
Posts: 508 From: Sylmar Calif a part of LA Registered: Jun 2007
Ted Kennedys car killed more people than any of my guns.
That's probably true of the vast majority of guns in the United States and quite frankly is a sobering thought.
------------------ Ron Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
My Uncle Frank was a staunch Conservative and voted straight Republican until the day he died in Chicago. Since then he has voted Democrat. Shrug
I know, didn't the Germans in WWII use wooden bullets? I mean how hard is it to carve a slug out of wood, or turn them on a lathe. A little bit of Yankee ingenuity and you can make your own bullets.
Lead is the perfect metal for bullets. Soft, can be rifled, mushrooms, and has a good heavy weight. They want to replace it with cooper, which is very expensive. Wood, as someone mentioned, is too light and will fragment. Lead can still be extracted at home, since it melts at low temperatures and will always be plentiful in batteries. Make sure you do it outside.
The EPA is behind this, meaning the government. They are saying lead is very toxic and people that are handling bullets are suffering from it's toxicity. Seriously, how much handling do you do with bullets?
I wish i had kept all my old batteries now.
As far as handling, i agree nearly all *modern* bullets are all jacketed, unless you make your own. However, lots of kids, have BB and pellet guns, they and they are not jacketed. ( not saying ban them, just stating facts ). Tho i guess air-soft does reduce the numbers these days, i know kids of my era, we all had a bb gun... and we didn't get sick. ( hell, generation before me had lead paint, and unless you ate your walls things were fine too )
But we are all talking under the assumption this is about health, and making rational statements. its not about health, nor is it rational.
What a complete load of Bullshit. This is back door gun control, period. Lead....what a joke. Its now so important to ban something we have handled and used with relative safety for bullets for hundreds of years. The ENVIRONMENT IS NOT effected by lead bullets. Yet another big government hoax.
I don't shoot lead bullets on my property due to worries of lead buildup leading to groundwater contamination. I've considered filling a shipping container with sand in order to isolate where the lead ends up but I've settled for simple bullet traps. I don't shoot many lead bullets anyway, most are copper jacketed.
I do shoot lead .22LR's. I do have a couple of 'lead only' .22LR - this is where my concern is. Competition .22 ammo like ELEY is lead but British manufactured. How are they going to be impacted?
Gun control aside, this is an interesting issue.
Considering this facility is the 'last' primary lead facility in the US, according to USGS data this facility provided less than 8% of lead. Primary facilities extract lead from mined resources. Secondary facilities extract lead from scrap - recycling. Secondary facilities produced 71% of lead. Source.
The company who owns this smelter says 145 employees and 73 contractors will lose their jobs. From the sound of the news release the company is trying to take care of their departing employees. Since 1892 the smelter has spent 'millions of dollars in environmental and other upgrades'. The plant is closing due to financial inability to meet the new air quality standard for lead, which was reduced from 1.5 µg/m3 to 0.15 µg/m3 in 2008. They have a 'revolutionary production technology' for cleaner extraction of lead but are unable to afford building the new plant. Source.
The EPA has details of the issues at the plant. Here are my two favorites: "One commentor expressed concerns about Doe Run shutting down monitors depending upon the wind direction." "One commentor asked why Doe Run employees wear respirators outside the plant if there is no problem with the air." Source.
Here's where it gets interesting - I can't find ANYTHING about lead bullets being banned nation wide. I only find information on a plant that produces 8% of the lead in the US closing and the US military switching to different ammo. "Experts say" lead bullets will be phased out according to the Fox News article.
Are lead bullets being banned or is this just shoddy reporting and a gun control knee jerk reaction?
[This message has been edited by FlyinFieros (edited 12-19-2013).]
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09:27 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37819 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by FlyinFieros: "Experts say" lead bullets will be phased out according to the Fox News article. Are lead bullets being banned or is this just shoddy reporting and a gun control knee jerk reaction?
The article does say lead bullets are being phased out, in Kalifornia. The saying is, "as goes Kalifornia so goes the nation". It was not shoddy reporting and alerting people to trends is not knee jerk reacting. The real question is, is the lead bullet ban knee jerk reaction ? Our gooberment CDC (Center For Disease Control) has not issued any lead poisoning alarming alerts.
Originally posted by cliffw: The article does say lead bullets are being phased out, in Kalifornia. The saying is, "as goes Kalifornia so goes the nation".
The article says two dozen states, including California.
I have no problem with state level legislation. What's being peddled here is 'backdoor gun control' at a national level.
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Originally posted by cliffw: It was not shoddy reporting and alerting people to trends is not knee jerk reacting. The real question is, is the lead bullet ban knee jerk reaction ? Our gooberment CDC (Center For Disease Control) has not issued any lead poisoning alarming alerts.
What a complete load of Bullshit. This is back door gun control, period. Lead....what a joke. Its now so important to ban something we have handled and used with relative safety for bullets for hundreds of years. The ENVIRONMENT IS NOT effected by lead bullets. Yet another big government hoax.
To be fair It might be on a real localized scale in some situations, but i agree with what the true intent is, eradication of the 2nd amendment right without actually repealing it. ( sorry for repeating myself .. )
Heard this morning that its something like 80 bucks in fees/taxes to buy ammo in newyork now.. yikes.
Flouride is toxic. Many things in life are toxic. Did you seriously think I questioned the toxicity of lead ? Are there any studies of lead poisoning due to handling ammo ? Show me a study of lead poisoning of wildlife eating carcasses of dead animals who committed suicide by being shot with a lead bullet.
States DO have rights, however a state does not have the legal right to ignore the protections specifically provided by the Federal Constitution. That is part of the deal to be a member of the union. That is the law of the ENTIRE land. I ( and many others ) argue that the actions being taken are directly related to the destruction of 2nd amendment, and not for "health and safety reasons".
Are there any studies of lead poisoning due to handling ammo ? .
Even if there are, and they show a quantifiable danger ( which i too doubt ), we have these things called gloves Also, handling ammunition is a choice, not a requirement.. Those that are concerned can just not handle them.
EDIT: I happen to be allergic now to hydrocarbon based cleaners, but instead of complaining i wear latex gloves..
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 12-19-2013).]
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10:37 AM
RotrexFiero Member
Posts: 3692 From: Pittsburgh, PA Registered: Jul 2002
BB's from BB guns are not lead, but steel. Pellets are lead, and I handled these as a kid. You would have to handle lots of them, almost ingest them to receive any toxicity. Simple touching lead is not going to lead to health problems.
Yes, it's true most ammo today is copper jacketed and that is nothing new. Copper jackets are needed on high velocity ammo, and also automatics because it keeps the barrel from leading up (inside of the barrel smeared with lead.) The core of the bullet is still lead, and lead has always been the chosen metal for bullets.
I think it's absurd the military is switching to green bullets because they are worried about hurting someone. What's next, Abram's tanks with mandatory 5mph impact bumbers!!!
They tried this years ago, tried to outlaw all lead casting equipment, saying it was dangerous for people to be heating up lead at home.
BB's from BB guns are not lead, but steel. Pellets are lead, and I handled these as a kid.
All of mine are lead. Both pellets and bb
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Originally posted by RotrexFiero: They tried this years ago, tried to outlaw all lead casting equipment, saying it was dangerous for people to be heating up lead at home..
Not heard this one, but it doesn't surprise me in the least. I bet no grandfathering either, 'turn in your supplies'
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 12-19-2013).]
Originally posted by User00013170: Where did i say that? Hint: I didn't.
cliffw and I were discussing states that have outlawed lead bullets for environmental reasons - the same reasons we don't have lead in our paint or in our gasoline anymore.
You chimed in claiming this environmental action against lead is an infringement of the 2nd amendment.
Your reaction is simply knee jerk paranoia.
Even the NRA has come out against this paranoia: "In any case, the bottom line for consumers is that ammunition producers do not expect the smelter's closure to lead to any imminent impact on the price or availability of lead ammunition components."
The Fox News article that spawned this thread is an embarrassment of baseless speculation and shoddy reporting. But hey, it's got everything a Fox News viewer needs to foot stomp for awhile: the EPA, "green" something, and gun control.
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Originally posted by User00013170: I suggest you learn to read, and comprehend.
Really?
This issue has absolutely nothing to do with gun control.
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Originally posted by cliffw: Did you seriously think I questioned the toxicity of lead?
You ask me to find studies showing the toxicity of lead immediately after this sentence.
[This message has been edited by FlyinFieros (edited 12-19-2013).]
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11:35 AM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
I think that Californias concern is with Condors and Bald Eagles being poisoned by eating carcasses of animals killed by lead bullets. I no longer hunt and only have my guns for self protection and because I still like guns. As far as self protection goes I'm unconcerned with whether I contaminate my attacker with my lead bullets. I was raised next to the worlds biggest lead mine and smelter. They hauled away the yard I played in when I was two years old because it was so contaminated with lead. It's scary to think how intelligent I could have probably been if I hadn't been exposed to all that Lead in my formative years. .
Show me a study of lead poisoning of wildlife eating carcasses of dead animals who committed suicide by being shot with a lead bullet.
Can they do that? You have video you recorded, or it never happens. Deer don't have fingers, so how would they commit suicide with anything using a lead bullet?
Originally posted by User00013170: If you honestly believe this, then you are also a fool.
"In any case, the bottom line for consumers is that ammunition producers do not expect the smelter's closure to lead to any imminent impact on the price or availability of lead ammunition components. " - the NRA
"In any case, the bottom line for consumers is that ammunition producers do not expect the smelter's closure to lead to any imminent impact on the price or availability of lead ammunition components. " - the NRA
Can they do that? You have video you recorded, or it never happens. Deer don't have fingers, so how would they commit suicide with anything using a lead bullet?
Jump off a cliff? Run towards a larger hungry animal? We of course are so smart now we can tell an animals true intent, even after they are dead. Suicide is such an abstract thought i really doubt animals could come up with the idea.
Also, handling ammunition is a choice, not a requirement.. Those that are concerned can just not handle them.
