quote Originally posted by ls3mach: MANY MANY times has religion caused war, pandemonium and mass hysteria throughout history.

Religion has caused war and pandemonium.

You said mass hysteria from the revelation account. I'm unaware historically of that being the case. I'm not sure I can remember a religious-induced mass hysteria. But I'm open to being informed of one.


You also mentioned institutionalization. Institutionalization isn't thought based. It is behavior/action based. At least in the U.S.
I'm not an expert on islam, but I thought jihad was convert to muslim or be killed. At whatever time they decided.

That isn't what revelation is about. Revelation is about freedom to choose your beliefs. But with consequences. You are left alone until once certain final point in time of human history. That is too significantly different for me to compare it to jihad.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I didn't need them to do anything involved in keeping the house. But I did anyway. It is more rewarding to do things with your children, and it is good for them. Next error in your assumptions. You said make followers "kill and murder". They aren't the same thing. In the literary work, if you are god you have control and authority, and what you say goes. God can have them kill, but according to the literary work, that isn't murder. Big difference. the story has been out for several thousand years in multiple countries in the world and hasn't caused mass hysteria. How many more thousands of years do you need it to not cause mass hysteria to be convinced that your question was without merit?

Oh ok, and more "rewarding" for god too have his followers kill for him, i see.. And obviously its "good for you" too kill in his name.. Gotcha

Well being a non-believer is a sin right? so any non-believers will be murdered by your god.. Murder is murder, don't care who's in charge..

So i guess you christians arent as different as you claim from the muslims you hate so much.. They seem to be all about death to all who are different, i guess, according to you anyway, are basically the same IMO..

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: You also mentioned institutionalization. Institutionalization isn't thought based. It is behavior/action based. At least in the U.S. I'm not an expert on islam, but I thought jihad was convert to muslim or be killed. At whatever time they decided. That isn't what revelation is about. Revelation is about freedom to choose your beliefs. But with consequences. You are left alone until once certain final point in time of human history. That is too significantly different for me to compare it to jihad.

Really is it different how? Other than the muslims will just kill you right away, but Jesus will wait for a while, then kill everyone who doesnt believe at once.. Yeah BIG difference..

[This message has been edited by Jonesy (edited 03-01-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: Really is it different how? Other than the muslims will just kill you right away, but Jesus will wait for a while, then kill everyone who doesnt believe at once.. Yeah BIG difference..

If you don't believe in the afterlife, resurrection and all that it makes a HUGE difference! For the most part, christians have gotten over actively killing people that disagree with them while there are quite a few muslims who will act on their aggressive beliefs. Plus, when the christians were at their most aggressive they used swords, catapults and primitive cannon (and still killed millions) while he possibilities of today's weapons are quite a bit more advanced...

So I agree with you in theory but not in practice!

[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 03-01-2013).]

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: If you don't believe in the afterlife, resurrection and all that it makes a HUGE difference! For the most part, christians have gotten over actively killing people that disagree with them while there are quite a few muslims who will act on their aggressive beliefs. Plus, when the christians were at their most aggressive they used swords, catapults and primitive cannons (and successfully killed millions) while he possibilities of today's weapons are quite different...

Still not seeing a difference between killing sinners right away a.k.a the muslim way.. Or waiting for Jesus to come kill all sinners at once.. Other than the fact muslim killings are real.. Building an army of "followers" to wage war and murder non-believers (not believing is a big sin in the christian world, so they get the axe too) doesnt sound like they are "over killing those who are different" too me.. Just sounds more like they are waiting for thier god to show up and give them the "rewarding" experience of killing those who are different..

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: Really is it different how? Other than the muslims will just kill you right away, but Jesus will wait for a while, then kill everyone who doesnt believe at once.. Yeah BIG difference..

If you don't see it is a huge difference whether someone waits for the general of the army to give an order, vs. an army just doing whatever they want to whomever they want, then that is your choice. Most people see that as a large distinction. Especially when the general specifically told them not to kill anyone unless he gives the order.


I was drawing an analogy to refute your erroneous conclusion that the only reason someone else involves someone in something is because they need them to. If you want to take the analogy farther than it should, and declare "gotcha", smiley face, then that is on you.


When one is a god that created life and gave it to someone, they have authority over that life. Killing is not the same as murder. You can try to make them the same, but it is an erroneous conclusion.


Then you continued on with erroneous conclusions or assumptions, like "you christians" hate muslims so much.
I never said anything about my personal beliefs at all. I gave you the literary answers to your questions. As I did above, again.

You might have picked up my subtle attempts to point that out by the four times in my post I mentioned literary work.

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: Still not seeing a difference between killing sinners right away a.k.a the muslim way..

As an atheist who doesn't believe in live after death it makes the difference between potential premature death at the hand of muslim nuts and the absence of that rather unpleasant experience - it doesn't get much more different than that!

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: As an atheist who doesn't believe in live after death it makes the difference between potential premature death at the hand of muslim nuts and the absence of that rather unpleasant experience - it doesn't get much more different than that!

I would rather be killed by a mythical god at sometime time in the future then be killed by a religious nut job today.

I already noted the main difference in an eailer post, that yes muslims kill you now. Jesus will wait till later.. So he gives you more time.. What a swell fella..

Murder is murder..

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: If you don't see it is a huge difference whether someone waits for the general of the army to give an order, vs. an army just doing whatever they want to whomever they want, then that is your choice.

No its not really my choice, its pretty much fact.. Muslims do what they do in the name of their god.. The believe this is what their god (which is actually the same as your god) wants them to do, and tells them to do.. So your theory of Jesus the great general ordering people to murder is totally the opposite of what the muslims do, is a moot point in my opinion..

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: You might have picked up my subtle attempts to point that out by the four times in my post I mentioned literary work.

Nah i missed it. Just a bad habit of usually ignoring what you say, as i rarely find it interesting.. Your faux comparisons on how Christians murdering people is better over Muslims murdering people was a good one though..

[This message has been edited by Jonesy (edited 03-01-2013).]

This would be an interesting thought to follow, is it really murder? Your soul will live on after death... so you're technically not dead... just in another state.

Here's what we have to remember... God is good. Thus when God extinguishes your life, He's not sinning.... if He's the commanding General and we get to be the ones to ultimate slay the sinners, then obviously we can do so without committing sin...

You can see throughout the Old Testament that God had the Jews wipe peoples out... they were wiped out because they had reached their fill of sin, and hit the point of no return... they were under divine mandate to be killed. They weren't killed because God was capricious... they were killed because they were sinners... remember, even one sin is enough to send you away forever from God's presence.

Now here's the application, why not stop with your hardheartedness, and turn to Jesus as your Savior, rather than mock and say "I don't believe in God". Everyone that says that knows full-well that He really exists, their just trying to quiet that small voice at the back of their heads... not to mention everything that can be seen around them in creation.

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: rather than mock and say "I don't believe in God". Everyone that says that knows full-well that He really exists, their just trying to quiet that small voice at the back of their heads....

I wonder if that is true....

I personally grow weary of this argument on PFF. It is clear some people think the know everything and have all the answers....and some people argue the contrary. Personally I want a part of neither camp. I think arguing either makes you tardanic. Especially since neither side can prove a thing.

Regarding the subject matter. I have been propositioning people in my area. I have a $20 one time registration fee. For this price you get care for your pet until they die (I have multiple business associates to overtake their care). When I get my first sale, I''l let everyone know. I am betting this thread is archived long before. Let it be known... The next person who offers me a religious anything in person will be offered my services.

In fairness. The people I've met who are sure/think they are going to heaven... I am glad for them. The people I see making a mockery of such things, almost always, honest... I'd rather spend eternity with them. They are faulted. They strike to fix their faults. They just want to live their life and be happy. Your life, I've noticed, is your business.

The people that can't believe anything else, I don't feel sorry for you guys. I am jealous. I do wish sometime I could just put my problems in someone else's hands. In reality though, all my problems are 1st world problems. I personally think your disillusioned states aren't relegated to the first world.

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: Now here's the application, why not stop with your hardheartedness, and turn to Jesus as your Savior, rather than mock and say "I don't believe in God". Everyone that says that knows full-well that He really exists, their just trying to quiet that small voice at the back of their heads... not to mention everything that can be seen around them in creation.

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: I already noted the main difference in an eailer post, that yes muslims kill you now. Jesus will wait till later.. So he gives you more time.. What a swell fella..

Funny, i thought people died immediately during the crusades. My bad.

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: God is good. Thus when God extinguishes your life, ...

What's "good"?

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: What's "good"?

Apparently anything his god does, no matter how cruel it is.

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: I already noted the main difference in an eailer post, that yes muslims kill you now. Jesus will wait till later.. So he gives you more time.. What a swell fella.. ...

Considering Jesus was wrong about several things maybe we don't get the time we think!

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I'm not an expert on islam, but I thought jihad was convert to muslim or be killed. At whatever time they decided.

Q1: What is Jihad?

A: The Arabic word Jihad is derived from the verb Jahada - meaning to strive or struggle. In Islamic terminology it means to make an effort, to endeavour and to strive for a noble cause. The word is generally used to describe any type of striving in the cause of Allah (God). According to Islamic teachings there are three main types of Jihad and they all seek to establish and promote peace in society, as explained below.

Types of Jihad

According to Islamic teachings there are three main categories of Jihad:

(i) Jihad-e-Akbar ie jihad of the highest order.
This is the jihad (struggle) for self-reformation. The struggle is against our own temptations such as greed, lust and other worldly temptations. This is a journey of a person from an ‘animalistic’ state of existence ie living for immediate gratification or gain to one where his psyche is disciplined enough to exercise moral control. This type of jihad is obligatory on every Muslim throughout his life.

(ii) Jihad-e-Kabir ie major jihad.
This is the jihad of propagation of the truth, the message of Qur’an. The Qur’an also instructs us to spread this message with wisdom, tolerance and respect to others and their beliefs,

16:126 - Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation...;

6:109 – And revile not those whom they call upon beside Allah, lest they, out of spite, revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus unto every people have We caused their doing to seem fair. Then unto their Lord is their return; and He will inform them of what they used to do.

It prohibits the use of any coercion or force,

2:257 – There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

According to the Qur’an anyone who devotes his time, effort, wealth or knowledge to the cause of righteousness is practising Jihad-e-Kabir. This is also obligatory on all Muslims.

(iii) Jihad-e-Asghar ie jihad of the lower order.
This is the jihad of a defensive battle. The Qur’an has clearly restricted this type of jihad to certain conditions while forbidding transgression of any sort.

1. The battle can only be defensive and not an offensive one.

(2:191- And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely Allah loves not the transgressors.)

2. Muslims should have faced oppression in the practice of their religion and a threat to their life.

3. Muslims should have been driven out of their homes; the teaching is to initially leave from where the oppression is taking place, and if the oppressor attacks the Muslims to stop them from practice of their religion in the new abode and also threaten their lives, only in these circumstances are the Muslims allowed to take up arms in a defensive battle.

Further on, there are clear directions in what can and cannot be done in a battle fought by the Muslims.

• Civilians who are not fighting against Muslims are not to be attacked or killed at all.
  
• Crops or other sources of food and water and cattle or other animals are not to be destroyed.
  
• Hospitals, orphanages and other places of safety and refuge are not to be destroyed.
  
• Mosques, churches, synagogues or other places of worship are not to be destroyed.
  
• Women, children, old and disabled are to be left untouched.
  
• If the aggressor stops the aggression or offers a treaty it should be accepted and the fighting stopped forthwith.
  
• Fleeing oppressors need not be pursued to any unnecessary length and should be allowed to return to their home.
  
• Prisoners of War should be treated with respect and their basic needs be fulfilled and they should be freed or ransomed as soon as possible after the battle.
  

Hence it is very clear that the purpose of any such battle is still to restore peace and not to promote aggression. It is important to note that starting of such a battle is not in the hands of the Muslims but can only be initiated by an oppressor fulfilling the aforementioned conditions.

http://www.islamicfaq.org/jihad/index.html

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-02-2013).]

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: Now here's the application, why not stop with your hardheartedness, and turn to Jesus as your Savior, rather than mock and say "I don't believe in God". Everyone that says that knows full-well that He really exists, their just trying to quiet that small voice at the back of their heads... not to mention everything that can be seen around them in creation.

That isn't true at all.

Just because you believe, and all of your life points to that being the only answer, doesn't mean others think the same way.

Different experiences will lead to different outlooks. Different thought processes will find different conclusions. I don't believe in God, and that's a true statement. There is a possibility that a god exists, I guess, but I don't believe so at the moment. And that's okay with me that you believe something totally different. I don't think you're stupid for it, or that I'm any more right than you are. We just have different ideas.

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: Now here's the application, why not stop with your hardheartedness, and turn to Jesus as your Savior, rather than mock and say "I don't believe in God". Everyone that says that knows full-well that He really exists, their just trying to quiet that small voice at the back of their heads... not to mention everything that can be seen around them in creation.

No, they * believe* he exists. Just as any other religion * believes* their particular deity(s) exist. None have proof. Not one bit. But you are more than welcome to believe that way if you like, as everyone gets a right to their religion. However you are not welcome to condemn people that think different than you on the subject, as you are doing. They are just as right ( or wrong ) as you and have their rights too.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 03-02-2013).]

quote Originally posted by TK: Considering Jesus was wrong about several things maybe we don't get the time we think!

Isn't that a contradictory statement? How can one that is all knowing and all powerful be "wrong" about anything??? I mean he is supposed to be "God".

[This message has been edited by Jonesy (edited 03-02-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: Isn't that a contradictory statement? How can one that is all knowing and all powerful be "wrong" about anything??? I mean he is supposed to be "God".

Well, that is a problem now isn't it.