quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Tks for the reseach Tex. That was also a best case....most people wont be going to med school. They do start higher than Id expected. I also thought all doctors had to do a period of residency before being on their own. I dont know everything.

Thanks for bringing up the subject of doc salaries, I had always wondered what they make.

You may be right about the ER doc starting out:... I don't see an small town hospital paying that kind of money starting a new doctor.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: No. Unless you can pay as you go or someone pays for you, everyone leaves college oweing a huge debt. I know one person as an example who is just in college for graphic arts. Her tuition is $30K a year. Her part time job pays her a few hundred a week. She is going to have a big debt, as are most others when she graduates. She WILL start work at the bottom of the ladder in her field...and thats if she gets a job in that field. Ill guess thats a pretty good field right now. Shes not going to start at $1000 @ week, and shes still got to pay back the $100,000+ loan. At $500-$1000 a month payments, its still going to be a very long time before shes out of debt on that loan. Most Ive known, dont even pay $500 a month on their school loans...lucky to make 1/2 of that. How about a poll here for those that just graduated in the last few years. Whats your total debt ?...how do you pay it? Is your job in your degree field ? Did you start out with a med-high pay scale within that company or at the lower end within the company ? You dont get out of med school with a license to practice and make $200,000 a year as a surgeon the day you start. You might get $500 (i really dont know) a week in ER. I know one guy who got his degree, and flight time to work towards a Command Pilot in a national air charter service (NetJets). He started at $275 @ week. One of my uncles worked up to a Delta Airlines command pilot and retired at $60,000 a year. Change my mind.

College does not automatically mean debt. It might for some people but that's for everyone. I'm graduating in May and I'll be debt free and the same goes for a lot of people graduating with me. You know one person that is paying ridiculous tuition for a very popular degree, that doesn't mean that's how college is for everyone.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Thanks, thats why I didnt get too personal for info. Sounds like it is working out ok for you. Yours isnt as high as a lot I know of. And not all can work full time and go to school.

Well, I'll tell you... it has been extremely difficult... I mean really tough. I've basically been going to school full-time for the past 5 years now, while finding time to make a baby with my wife, along with all the other responsibilities that go along with being an adult and a home owner... as well as working full time on average 60 hours a week (which is much less than what it used to be). I don't really consider it "woa is me..." I kind of see that as a necessary evil that's required for someone to get ahead... and a lot of people better than myself have been able to do it without complaining.

I'm definitely getting over it... I mean, I'm working on a paper right now and I'm totally procrastinating... but my grades have been pretty exemplary. Why work hard if you can't brag about it, right? 3.948 GPA for bachelors, and a full 4.0 right now for my masters... but we'll see... I could still screw it up. My associates wasn't so awesome though. All my grades were As and high Bs in the last couple of years, but when I first started (before I dropped out and came back) it was all Fs and Ds... so with all that combined, I ended up with only a 2.97 GPA for my associates. Still better than my high school GPA which was a 1.7... heh.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I hope that job offer is still there when you graduate or when it comes time but something you have to realize is that is all it is, an offer than can be retracted at any time. See in this economy every job is at risk, even those here who have degrees and have been working are out of work NOW. Don’t depend on that degree as a guaranty that you will always have a job in your field of study. See you don’t need to bow to anyone’s experience just respect it and you will learn more from those older guys than you ever did in college. BDud did it right he is working with others, whether he is on the crew sweeting with them or just watching he is learning things they never taught him in college. You have to understand that experience has just as important if not more important than that college time.

Thanks for acknowledging that.

But I don't think of the degree as a guarantee of anything. That would be dumb, and I'm not dumb.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: An awful lot of people discounting educations and the like in this thread. I thought this forum was about Fieros? It is my understanding that Fieros where a budget commuter car from the 80s. With that in mind, I really have to take into to consideration the financials of MOST of the people on PFF. Sure there are a few that have saved their nickels, got great paying jobs, or lucked into things... I think for the most part, people are into Fieros because they enjoy the car and it is within their budget. Emphases on the budget part. Having said that, this might not be the best polling spot to find out how to make good money in this world. Statistically speaking college graduates earn more than high-school graduates. Just a FACT. Steve we've all read thousands of times about your stance on engineers. Personally, I am tired of reading it. It is just a blind "hatred". There are people like that in all fields. I don't know you personally, but you bragged pretty hard about all you can do (I do believe you likely used to a decent welder). You then go on to tell Brennan and the collective of all engineers that you can do their job, have, and that they are idiots. If I consistently have a problem with people in different situations, I take time to consider if the issue could actually me. About the article. I think this is a trend that has been ongoing for a while. Especially with all the "free" government money. I could eventually see "nationalized" colleges if our country continues on this path. I know a number of people with degrees. Few apply them to their actual field, with the except of lawyers, doctors and the life. The ones that do "well" likely would have done well regardless. My partner at work has a poly-sci major and likely will never apply it to our company. His best friend has some kind of public speaking major and the same goes for him. We all make good money regardless of whether we would/did go to college. My good friend has a degree and does nothing with it and makes around $30,000 a year. His parents spent a good deal of money for him to get a computer help desk job. He likely would be doing similar regardless of education. His parents set him up with the job also. Plenty of people aren't college material. Plenty are. Some people are just more likely to succeed. Such is life, I hope it stays that way. I prefer a more "survival of the fittest" approach to life. Separates the people who are losers, leeches and sponges.

Yep, agree with it all.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: So a guy graduating and starting his first doctor job at 30 years old with a medical degree isnt 1/4 million dollars (low estim) in debt on his first day......? (well not if someone gave him that money) How many years will he work starting at the bottom of that ladder before he breaks even. Prob about the time he can retire in most cases. In the meantime, a guy who dont go to college and has no debt for it, starts his own business and saves up for his retirement. For 20 years of my business being really good, I made more in my hands than most college people I KNEW. I could have retired at 50 if id wanted and owed no one.

My debt coming out of college is 40% of my yearly salary. I don't think it's going to take too long to pay it off. Oh, and parents didn't give me a dime.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Nope. I don't agree with it either--and I don't have a college education. I got my training the same way you and CliffW did, And I also disagree that what you have is NOT a hatred. You say you can do all the things the enigneers did--without having to go to college. Really? No--you didn't and no you can't--and neither can I--Neither can CliffW. It's REAL easy, to begin when a project's work is 7/8- 15/16 alrerady done, and say: "I can do this--don't need no clloge diploma for this crap" That, is where you are dead wrong, always have been and always will be. You had a basic idea, but with all the tools, equipment, and, the material goods that some engineers had already provided for you--all you have to do is assemble them. Unless you can design a smelter, a miningig operation, power distribution systems on a large scale, steel making plants, and the machinery that turns out the steel, you can't do what the engineers did. You can't even design the basic components of a 6011 welding rod--but an engineer can--and did. I need a 30' X 40' X 12' steel building put up behind my house. Can you do it? I'll provide 600 tons of premium yeild iron ore. I'll give you a bit of a break, since you are old and stroke ridden--I'll provide as many boulders as you need to get the crushed rock for the concrete. ALL the rest is up to you, and you can not use ANYTHING an engineer has already provided or designed. This time--you get to start at square one--not with 95% of the work already done. Get started. I'd like it done in my lifetime if you please. BTW, The BDub has already made more in a single year than either of us ever made in a single year of our woring life.

Thanks for that Don--great explanation.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: No. Unless you can pay as you go or someone pays for you, everyone leaves college oweing a huge debt. I know one person as an example who is just in college for graphic arts. Her tuition is $30K a year. Her part time job pays her a few hundred a week. She is going to have a big debt, as are most others when she graduates. She WILL start work at the bottom of the ladder in her field...and thats if she gets a job in that field. Ill guess thats a pretty good field right now. Shes not going to start at $1000 @ week, and shes still got to pay back the $100,000+ loan. At $500-$1000 a month payments, its still going to be a very long time before shes out of debt on that loan. Most Ive known, dont even pay $500 a month on their school loans...lucky to make 1/2 of that. How about a poll here for those that just graduated in the last few years. Whats your total debt ?...how do you pay it? Is your job in your degree field ? Did you start out with a med-high pay scale within that company or at the lower end within the company ? You dont get out of med school with a license to practice and make $200,000 a year as a surgeon the day you start. You might get $500 (i really dont know) a week in ER. I know one guy who got his degree, and flight time to work towards a Command Pilot in a national air charter service (NetJets). He started at $275 @ week. One of my uncles worked up to a Delta Airlines command pilot and retired at $60,000 a year. Change my mind.

I'll give you my statistics, not my starting salary number because I don't really want that public but I can give an idea.

I go to a public university, tuition is about $15k a year, living cost about $6k a year off campus, or about $12k a year on campus. I have scholarships that cover most of my tuition, but take out extra loans to have some nice spending money so I don't have to live off of Ramen noodles. When I graduate I will have right above $40k in debt. I had multiple offers in my field and took one that was a little less money than another because I liked the company more. I start off right at their median pay scale, so I assume that's a good central tendency and I'm about medium-grade starting at the company.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Wait... if we have to do our drawings in MS Paint, then I will rule all of you because I am the master of MS Paint. I know the ins and outs of Photoshop, both elements and the full suite, and I still find myself going back to MS Paint do stuff pixel by pixel... You all are screwed, I will win this challenge!!!

was editting when you quoted me, please allow me to finish. i had to feed dogs and put chickens away as well as feed cats

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-23-2013).]

Cool, while all of you are STILL arguing, I just recieved a pay increase that puts me over $130,000 per year with no degree. Good stuff.....continue with your arguments.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I’ll take that bet with a few added things, The kid, BDub has to do the exact same thing. See with your limits neither of us could do it, now could we? We have 4 judges of our own pick, 4 for me and 4 for him. In other words he gets to pick four judges and I get to pick four judges. No one is to use any internet for anything as far as how things are made. We have to draw all prints in MS paint. I’ll take that bet with a few added things, The kid, BDub has to do the exact same thing. See with your limits neither of us could do it, now could we? As I recall he is a petroleum engineer, if I am not mistaken. Steve

Wait... if we have to do our drawings in MS Paint, then I will rule all of you because I am the master of MS Paint.

I know the ins and outs of Photoshop, both elements and the full suite, and I still find myself going back to MS Paint do stuff pixel by pixel...

You all are screwed, I will win this challenge!!!

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: As I recall he is a petroleum engineer, if I am not mistaken. Steve

He works at a gas station?

quote Originally posted by IMSA GT: Cool, while all of you are STILL arguing, I just recieved a pay increase that puts me over $130,000 per year with no degree. Good stuff.....continue with your arguments.

....and, with living in CA, you get to keep, after taxes, what? 10-12k of that ? <BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA> <j/k>

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I’ll take that bet with a few added things, The kid, BDub has to do the exact same thing. See with your limits neither of us could do it, now could we? We have 4 judges of our own pick, 4 for me and 4 for him. In other words he gets to pick four judges and I get to pick four judges. No one is to use any internet for anything as far as how things are made. We have to draw all prints in MS paint. I’ll take that bet with a few added things, The kid, BDub has to do the exact same thing. See with your limits neither of us could do it, now could we? As I recall he is a petroleum engineer, if I am not mistaken. Steve

He is indeed--or will be something of that nature, but the difference is, he doesn't claim to be able to do the job that the guys on the rig floor can do--you DO claim to be able to do the job engineers do. Why you would expect him to be able to do something he never claimed to be able to is nothing more than a red herring--a straw argument. I never claimed to be able to do an engineer's, architect's, or a draftsman's job either, because I am educated enough to know I cannot but here's your chance to show what you've so often claimed to be able to do---An engineer's job.

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: ....and, with living in CA, you get to keep, after taxes, what? 10-12k of that ? <BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA> <j/k>

I should have said, I bring that home AFTER taxes.....which are a pain in the ass

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 02-23-2013).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Nope. I don't agree with it either--and I don't have a college education. I got my training the same way you and CliffW did, And I also disagree that what you have is NOT a hatred. You say you can do all the things the enigneers did--without having to go to college. Really? No--you didn't and no you can't--and neither can I--Neither can CliffW. It's REAL easy, to begin when a project's work is 7/8- 15/16 alrerady done, and say: "I can do this--don't need no clloge diploma for this crap" That, is where you are dead wrong, always have been and always will be. You had a basic idea, but with all the tools, equipment, and, the material goods that some engineers had already provided for you--all you have to do is assemble them. Unless you can design a smelter, a miningig operation, power distribution systems on a large scale, steel making plants, and the machinery that turns out the steel, you can't do what the engineers did. You can't even design the basic components of a 6011 welding rod--but an engineer can--and did. I need a 30' X 40' X 12' steel building put up behind my house. Can you do it? I'll provide 600 tons of premium yeild iron ore. I'll give you a bit of a break, since you are old and stroke ridden--I'll provide as many boulders as you need to get the crushed rock for the concrete. ALL the rest is up to you, and you can not use ANYTHING an engineer has already provided or designed. This time--you get to start at square one--not with 95% of the work already done. Get started. I'd like it done in my lifetime if you please. BTW, The BDub has already made more in a single year than either of us ever made in a single year of our woring life.

I’ll take that bet as long as the BDud has to do the exact same thing, and he can’t ether. No one here could, you are talking about reinventing things that were made not only by engineers but guys like you and I and Cliffw.
I’ll take that bet with a few added things,
We have 4 judges of our own pick, 4 for me and 4 for him. In other words he gets to pick four judges and I get to pick four judges.

No one is to use any internet for anything as far as how things are made.
No internet use for finding anything, plans, chemical combinations, measurements, anything.
We must build it to your specifications as I said in MS paint. No CAD programs, hell I would prefer we send it all snail mail to our judges to be honest but that ain’t happening now is it? You would be dead by then; you are what, 1005 now?
We are allowed as many grunts to do the manual labor as we want.
And to make things even fairer we need to make them in the next 2 months, so you are still alive,

I had some more but forgot as I was outside feeding when I thought of them.

Now think you can do that BDub?

And I never said I could do all the things an engineer can do I said that I could draw prints and make things from scratch, meaning mechanical things. I have and I can.

Now let’s make it interesting dub I’ll bet a buck I can do it more simply and faster than you can. KISS, keep it simple stupid.

Now except the bet and pick your 4 judges or decline.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

If I am a measure of success, 'yall ain't reaching high enough, .

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 02-23-2013).]

quote Originally posted by cliffw: If I am a measure of success, 'yall ain't reaching high enough, .

My highschool year book quote was: "You can only be a child once, but you can be immature forever..." hahaha...

quote Originally posted by cliffw: If I am a measure of success, 'yall ain't reaching high enough, .

No SH!T,
Did you ever learn to weld?

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I’ll take that bet as long as the BDud has to do the exact same thing, and he can’t ether. No one here could, you are talking about reinventing things that were made not only by engineers but guys like you and I and Cliffw. I’ll take that bet with a few added things, We have 4 judges of our own pick, 4 for me and 4 for him. In other words he gets to pick four judges and I get to pick four judges. No one is to use any internet for anything as far as how things are made. No internet use for finding anything, plans, chemical combinations, measurements, anything. We must build it to your specifications as I said in MS paint. No CAD programs, hell I would prefer we send it all snail mail to our judges to be honest but that ain’t happening now is it? You would be dead by then; you are what, 1005 now? We are allowed as many grunts to do the manual labor as we want. And to make things even fairer we need to make them in the next 2 months, so you are still alive, I had some more but forgot as I was outside feeding when I thought of them. Now think you can do that BDub? And I never said I could do all the things an engineer can do I said that I could draw prints and make things from scratch, meaning mechanical things. I have and I can. Now let’s make it interesting dub I’ll bet a buck I can do it more simply and faster than you can. KISS, keep it simple stupid. Now except the bet and pick your 4 judges or decline. Steve

Not talking about re-inventing anything--just duplicating them.

As far as the personal restrictions you felt you needed to place on a 20 something year old...
So, you think, that you, using your many decades of experience is fair, while depriving him of common resources?
My building--my rules. My judges too.
You, Steve, in exchange for BDub not having internet access-- get to use nothing you learned during your entire adult working life.
Now, the playing field is closer to level.

The judges will also determine if the rules have been broken in any way.
Judges?
Tbone42.
Marvin McGinnis.
Ron Blackwell.
Tony Kania

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I’ll take that bet as long as the BDud has to do the exact same thing, and he can’t ether. No one here could, you are talking about reinventing things that were made not only by engineers but guys like you and I and Cliffw. I’ll take that bet with a few added things, We have 4 judges of our own pick, 4 for me and 4 for him. In other words he gets to pick four judges and I get to pick four judges. No one is to use any internet for anything as far as how things are made. No internet use for finding anything, plans, chemical combinations, measurements, anything. We must build it to your specifications as I said in MS paint. No CAD programs, hell I would prefer we send it all snail mail to our judges to be honest but that ain’t happening now is it? You would be dead by then; you are what, 1005 now? We are allowed as many grunts to do the manual labor as we want. And to make things even fairer we need to make them in the next 2 months, so you are still alive, I had some more but forgot as I was outside feeding when I thought of them. Now think you can do that BDub? And I never said I could do all the things an engineer can do I said that I could draw prints and make things from scratch, meaning mechanical things. I have and I can. Now let’s make it interesting dub I’ll bet a buck I can do it more simply and faster than you can. KISS, keep it simple stupid. Now except the bet and pick your 4 judges or decline. Steve

I was trained as a Petroleum Engineer, so most of my training involves stresses underground. I can design a well, and have, and can design a completions procedure, and have, and can design production facilities... and have. I can do many things related to my field. I know that with time I will also get much better at doing more things related to my field that I didn't learn in school, as well as polishing the things I did learn in school. Nobody leaves school fully prepared to take on the work of someone who has worked the same job for a decade or more. Keep in mind: I never claimed that.

But no, I could not do the project Don challenged you with.

I do, however, think a professional engineer that was trained as a Mechanical Engineer with an emphasis in Civil Engineering might be able to get pretty close--with a few road bumps that would involve consulting others. I also believe you could get there eventually, but it would involve a lot more of that consulting mentioned earlier.


The point is, as Don stated, I never claimed I could design and build anything that came my way. You claimed you could do an engineer's job. There are things that you don't understand about building mechanical objects and even completely static objects, and what you have learned is by using tools and processes engineers have designed. Your prints that you would draw would involve things you have learned on the job--but those objects you would use weren't always commonplace. An engineer or team of engineers designed the tools that you now use. Things as simple as the types of beams you would use in constructing the shed Don wants... You might use i-beams because you know them to be commonplace and supposedly efficient. Do you know why? Would that design be intuitive to you if you had never seen one before? Would Don's shed be able to handle not only typical use, but abnormal circumstances? Would you sign a paper that says if the building fails, it's on you because you personally looked over the design and construction of the shed?

No, I can't do Don's challenge, and he knows that, because I acknowledge I can't do even half of what you can do or half of what a pilot can do or half of what a veterinarian can do or half of what a farmer can do. But you can't do half of what I can do either.


A story that might make you happy, Steve: In my first year of being an intern, I developed a new way to measure biocide performance in water. The company wanted to use flowback water (the water that comes back up from the well after a frac job) for more completion treatments, but the problem with flowback water is that it comes back riddled with bacteria. Any dirty water that gets sent downhole will kill production by a multitude of reasons. But when they would clean the water with a biocide, to make sure the water was clean they had a testing procedure that takes about 28 days. My new process only took 24 hours, and should have saved a lot of resources. I can't get into what it was because it's proprietary information, but it was cool stuff. Anyway, we tried to utilize it in the field, but the money it took to hire the lab geeks and get them out to the well wasn't worth the month that the process saved. It was too complicated to train laymen in the procedure (they tried), so the project was filed and put away.

I came up with something that looked great on paper, and didn't work in the field. I'm not ashamed to admit it--I learned from that experience to view things from even more angles than I originally was. I hope to continue learning so I don't design more things that sound good on paper but don't work in the real world.

I respect what you're able to do with yourself, Steve. I just wish you respected what some others are able to do that you can't.

In a way, I can understand Steves point and to an extent agree with him...NO, neither of us could do an engineers job (well, me anymore, I am too out of date and rusty), and not many engineers could come out in the shop and do ours....THATS the point. Its been my experience that engineers/ designers (especially fresh out of school) have a tendency to over-analyze and over-calculate common sense items (I was no different out of Civil Tech in the 80's, I calculated every bolt on a formwork system every time)....it takes a few years to get the idea that common sense prevails and you dont need to. If a 3/8" worked on a 5k shore post the past 50 times, its going to work the next 50 and the aluminum is going to crush before the bolt shears, so drop the calculater and grab a wrench....THAT takes real-world experience, and guys like me and Steve who have been doing the shop end of things for a long time tend to overly discount the design process, just because its worked the past 50 times, so its going to the next 50 since its the exact same thing.

Same applies to popcorn kettles....guys at the manufacturers design department put a lot of effort into , say, thermostat design----know what we do in the field?...if its a 450 or a 550 hi limit and it fits the mounts--use it. Dont care who made it, dont care what part number it is. It fits, its the right temperature, it'll work. ....same goes for a myriad of other pieces of machinery, but like I said that only comes with real-world experience.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: The judges will also determine if the rules have been broken in any way. Judges? Tbone42. Marvin McGinnis. Ron Blackwell. Tony Kania

You've flipped your lid Don. Everyone knows, except for Marvin, Tony and Ron, the rest of those assclowns don't have a half a brain between them. .. Wait.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: I came up with something that looked great on paper, and didn't work in the field. I'm not ashamed to admit it--I learned from that experience to view things from even more angles than I originally was. I hope to continue learning so I don't design more things that sound good on paper but don't work in the real world. I respect what you're able to do with yourself, Steve. I just wish you respected what some others are able to do that you can't.

See that you’re learning and accept that things don’t always work in the field like they did on paper good for you and I commend you for admitting your mistakes. My problem is with those engineers who will not and I have worked with a few who don’t and say the “It worked on paper” line then add on just to piss me off I think, or maybe because of their inability to admit they could be wrong, or stupidity, “Just build it as I designed it”
Those are the engineers who I “Hate”.
One of your brothers posted on here, give me a second and I will find it.

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: I'll be able to relate with some of the main posters in this thread. First off, I just want to say that degree or not, when it comes to jobs, you need a SKILL. I don't care if you went to school and learned about the law, or if you sat around in your uncles barn and fixed farm equipment. If you have a SKILL you will most likely do just fine. I have become friends with many people in college who are going for some stupid ass pointless degrees that may do well in their classes, but don't have any common sense, and don't know how to do **** . I also have a very close friend who was going for an electrical engineering degree, but circumstances prevented him from finishing school. He enjoyed what he was going for, and did many projects on the side as a hobbyist. When things didn't go well with school, he had NO problem finding a job paying 40k+ even without a degree, and is now making over $60k, still without a degree. His current job is paying for him to finish off the remaining courses. The thing is, hes a genius when it comes to circuits and board design. He is very creative, knows electrical and mechanical design software, and offers his company both custom board solutions, and also the physical enclosure designs. He is successful because he has a SKILL. On the other hand, my current industry is in mechanized welding. This is where I was getting at with my first statement of this post. I see a lot of welders come through our shop that are both trained and self-taught. As a mechanical engineer, some of them get along with me, some of them don't at first. A lot of my design comes from a lot of THEIR feedback. They are the ones using my equipment, they are the ones that know what they like, and what they don't. I earn their respect, just as they earn mine. I know a lot about welding from the theoretical side of things, but they are the ones that can actual weld. They are the welders, they have their job because they offer that SKILL. They know what kind of controls they want from their equipment, and I know what it takes to get those lead/lag angles, torch yaw movements, osc/avc, etc. They don't do the motion profile studies or motor torque/speed calculations, and I don't try to learn what sort of parameter sets they will program for each scheduled section around a pipe. I have my skills, they have theirs. If neither of us had a skill, we would neither have a job. These are guys that all hands-on, making over $100k, and don't have college degrees. My college degree didn't teach me the skills I need to succeed in this field. My college experience gave me the FOUNDATION I needed to be able to succeed. I have been contacted by two much larger competitor companies seeking me to join their teams in the past 2 months, not because of where I went to school, but because of recognition for what I've done at my current company. College or NOT, if you don't have a SKILL, you can't expect to be desired for a job.

Now that man understands what I am talking about, now I did cut some of his post out but if you want to back and read it.
But he understand that you have to listen to those you are designing for, most kids just out of school don’t, even some after many years in the field haven’t figured that out yet and those are the ones I hate. Why because when someone brings me a set of print I have to use to build something they refuse to take my input and even in some cases refuse to even listen to me or any of the other tradesmen. Them I hate.

At least listen to the others and admit it when they are right, accept that even the lowly laborer can give you input on a project that can help you complete it properly. That is all I’m saying, it can save your ass sometimes and I have to ask? Did anyone in the drill crew tell you what you were doing might not work?

I’m not saying they know it all just that they can sometimes be right and you should listen to them at least. Learning from your mistakes only makes you better at whatever you do in any field.

Let me tell you about the kind of guy I know personally that is just who I am talking about, Melanie’s brother. He was going for his PHD chemical engineering and writing his thesis at the end of his studies at MIT. His instructor, teacher, professor, WTF ever he was called said it wouldn’t work and he needed to rewrite it if he wanted to get his PHD. He said it did work and he refused to rewrite it.

Now that is the kind of man I am talking about, Someone refusing to take criticism for their work.

Good luck in your career.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

There's a couple of different things here that I think a lot of people are missing... at least as it applies to college degrees. I've worked in a number of different industries, and while that doesn't make me an expert in anything, it does give me a more well-rounded point from which to look at these things. I like to categorize things, and while I don't know all the categories... I can point out a few of them:


1 - You often see people who are highly paid, whether that's doctors, engineers, or whatever. They are exceptional in the very specific job that they are paid to do, but are completely inept in everything else in life. They have trained their minds to focus on one particular thing, and it makes them almost learning disabled in everything else. This was my experience with a lot of the medical doctors (pathologists) that I ran into. Some of them were just brilliant all across the board (and funny), but I'd occasionally run into some that were almost moronic on anything deviating from pathology.

2 - You have kids who graduate from college and think they are experts and that they can't learn or be told anything. They're arrogant, and really only know some basics while they think they actually know everything. I don't think this so much has to do with people going to college, I just think this has to do with immaturity. I was like that once... I was definitely like that once, except it was before I had gone to college. When I was 19-20... just starting my programming career, I acted like an expert. I think I knew that I wasn't (and I wasn't), but I didn't like taking advice or direction from anyone unless it was a person who was considered my superior from the day I started. Beyond that, I rejected advice because to me it showed weakness. Totally stupid on my part, but what can I say... we aren't born mature.

3 - You have a lot of people who go to college, and maybe their college wasn't so great, or they didn't get a fully well-rounded education from it. They are thrown into the workforce (so to speak) and they're not very good at having their feet to the fire. They don't pick up as quickly and are expected to already know certain things when they start on the job that they were apparently never taught in college. I see this a LOT in programming. A lot of the kids that come right out of college that I work with, they have this abnormal sense of software engineering / project management. They've got some theoretical idea that they can continue to enhance a product by creating mercurial nodes... (branches), and they can simply fix certain issues, and that when they compile the software, it will be perfect. I've run into programmers that seem to think that allowing the user to get an exception window is "totally acceptable." That, the user should know to click continue instead of quit. It's pretty bad... and this is the thing that I fight with a LOT. I've been programming for 18 years professionally... and while I don't know everything by any means, I do know that your software must be tested, and the programmers HAVE to stop enhancements and focus on fixing the bugs. Adding more enhancements simply adds more bugs.

On the flip side, you have people who generally hate anyone that has a college degree,

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: In a way, I can understand Steves point and to an extent agree with him...NO, neither of us could do an engineers job (well, me anymore, I am too out of date and rusty), and not many engineers could come out in the shop and do ours....THATS the point. Its been my experience that engineers/ designers (especially fresh out of school) have a tendency to over-analyze and over-calculate common sense items (I was no different out of Civil Tech in the 80's, I calculated every bolt on a formwork system every time)....it takes a few years to get the idea that common sense prevails and you dont need to. If a 3/8" worked on a 5k shore post the past 50 times, its going to work the next 50 and the aluminum is going to crush before the bolt shears, so drop the calculater and grab a wrench....THAT takes real-world experience, and guys like me and Steve who have been doing the shop end of things for a long time tend to overly discount the design process, just because its worked the past 50 times, so its going to the next 50 since its the exact same thing. Same applies to popcorn kettles....guys at the manufacturers design department put a lot of effort into , say, thermostat design----know what we do in the field?...if its a 450 or a 550 hi limit and it fits the mounts--use it. Dont care who made it, dont care what part number it is. It fits, its the right temperature, it'll work. ....same goes for a myriad of other pieces of machinery, but like I said that only comes with real-world experience.

There's a problem with that and it involves science and liability. It's not the last 50 times that matters--it's the next 500 or 5000 times. It only takes one failure (or one aw crap) to negate 50 atta boys, and that one failure can be very expensive in $$ and health or even lives-- and that's where engineers have to be overly cautious and design in parameters that seem overkill to us in the field. Root cause failure analysis is the worst possible scenario to have to design or re-design something on, and good engineers do everything possible to keep that from being part of a project's history. We see things in a practical everyday use and things works fine, but from an engineering aspect, they have to consider all the "what ifs" as well and try to plan for those things that rarely occur too.
Most of the problems we see in the field, have more to do with a manufacturer or builder bypassing engineering advice and input in favor of cost cutting avenues.
"It's always worked before" is a phrase I've used and heard used my whole life, but it don't mean crap the one time it doesn't work. In even marginally critical applications, it has to work every time and all the time. Buildings collapse, bridges fall, boats sink, homes burn because field people ignore basic engineering practices and protocols. Nothing can be enigineered 100% failsafe forever, but most of the time, failures occur because ratings are ignored or mis-interpreted, and nothing I can think of is more abused than amp capacity ratings in wiring systems. I see erroneous current carrying advice posted all the time and wonder why more buildings don't burn to the slab.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-24-2013).]

You make a lot of good points that I agree with TA. btw, I dont dislike anyone because they get a degree. Like you said it just makes a lot of them arrogant and otherwise unlikeable. I say if they want to spend their money for whatever, more power to them. Most of them think you have to have a degree to get anywhere and theyre dead wrong. More times than not, success is due to lucky circumstances like knowing the right person at the right time. Most of the good things in my life came clear out of left field when I wasnt expecting it.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 02-24-2013).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: There's a problem with that and it involves science and liability. It's not the last 50 times that matters--it's the next 500 or 5000 times. It only takes one failure (or one aw crap) to negate 50 atta boys, and that one failure can be very expensive in $$ and health or even lives-- and that's where engineers have to be overly cautious and design in parameters that seem overkill to us in the field. Root cause failure analysis is the worst possible scenario to have to design or re-design something on, and good engineers do everything possible to keep that from being part of a project's history. We see things in a practical everyday use and things works fine, but from an engineering aspect, they have to consider all the "what ifs" as well and try to plan for those things that rarely occur too. Most of the problems we see in the field, have more to do with a manufacturer or builder bypassing engineering advice and input in favor of cost cutting avenues. "It's always worked before" is a phrase I've used and heard used my whole life, but it don't mean crap the one time it doesn't work. In even marginally critical applications, it has to work every time and all the time. Buildings collapse, bridges fall, boats sink, homes burn because field people ignore basic engineering practices and protocols. Nothing can be enigineered 100% failsafe forever, but most of the time, failures occur because ratings are ignored or mis-interpreted, and nothing I can think of is more abused than amp capacity ratings in wiring systems. I see erroneous current carrying advice posted all the time and wonder why more buildings don't burn to the slab.

Have to agree with some of what you sat Don but I think most of it is inferior materials that were graded to some standard that they never should have passed. Ether by the manufacturer of the product, China is a prime example. We get steel from them that I saw wasn’t up to code even though the manufacturer had stamped it so.

Ever see a set of Chinese made tools that wouldn’t even fit what they were marked to fit?

That wasn’t an engineer’s fault it was a manufacturers fault, I rarely saw that in American products, sometimes but rarely.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

I'm going to jump in here because Steve and I have had our run-ins on the forum.

Steve: You have a chip on you shoulder about engineers. I understand that...you worked in the auto industry on the line, it's expected. I've seen this attitude, it mostly comes from small-minded people who derive their worldly pleasure from the 8+ hours a day they spend drunk, stoned or otherwise incapacitated. Skilled tradesmen understand the relationship between engineers, tradesmen and labourers and they accept that.

You think you can do anything better than any engineer that ever lived. Fine...think that way. I, for one, am tired of reading your long-winded, ill-researched, anecdotal posts on engineers and what we do.

Without engineers you wouldn't have had any cars to build. Without engineers you wouldn't have welding machines to work with. Without engineers you wouldn't be able to use the computer that you are to type your nonsensical rants.

Get over it. If anyone thinks they are invincible and that they know everything about the world it's you. Guys like me, and BDubs and the other young engineers on this forum know what our shortcomings are and we know that we need to work hard to overcome them. I have two shelves of engineering textbooks on the shelf beside me. Do I know everything that's on every page of them? No. Do I know where to go to find what I need when I need it...most definitely.

Go back to your hole Steve, keep thinking you're the best in the world at everything. I pity you and the box you make yourself live in.

quote Originally posted by AntiKev: I'm going to jump in here because Steve and I have had our run-ins on the forum. Steve: You have a chip on you shoulder about engineers. I understand that...you worked in the auto industry on the line, it's expected. I've seen this attitude, it mostly comes from small-minded people who derive their worldly pleasure from the 8+ hours a day they spend drunk, stoned or otherwise incapacitated. Skilled tradesmen understand the relationship between engineers, tradesmen and labourers and they accept that. You think you can do anything better than any engineer that ever lived. Fine...think that way. I, for one, am tired of reading your long-winded, ill-researched, anecdotal posts on engineers and what we do. Without engineers you wouldn't have had any cars to build. Without engineers you wouldn't have welding machines to work with. Without engineers you wouldn't be able to use the computer that you are to type your nonsensical rants. Get over it. If anyone thinks they are invincible and that they know everything about the world it's you. Guys like me, and BDubs and the other young engineers on this forum know what our shortcomings are and we know that we need to work hard to overcome them. I have two shelves of engineering textbooks on the shelf beside me. Do I know everything that's on every page of them? No. Do I know where to go to find what I need when I need it...most definitely. Go back to your hole Steve, keep thinking you're the best in the world at everything. I pity you and the box you make yourself live in.

Sounds more like you are the one with the chip on your shoulder there kid, I have said I have caught engineers doing the things that piss me off. I have also admitted that I have been wrong before about things, no one is perfect. And I also gave sound advice to young engineers like dub but he at least admits he can and has been wrong.
As I already said I never said I could do every engineers job, no one can that would be stupid. Just as your assessment of every auto worker being a useless drunk is wrong. You are one of the types of engineers I hate; you can’t admit you made a mistake. Or that those who you work with and for are useless because you have a degree, no one else can ever be right, unless of course it is another engineer.

Was Edison an engineer? Or many of the other great men who invented things that were not schooled engineers?

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Sounds more like you are the one with the chip on your shoulder there kid, I have said I have caught engineers doing the things that piss me off. I have also admitted that I have been wrong before about things, no one is perfect. And I also gave sound advice to young engineers like dub but he at least admits he can and has been wrong. As I already said I never said I could do every engineers job, no one can that would be stupid. Just as your assessment of every auto worker being a useless drunk is wrong. You are one of the types of engineers I hate; you can’t admit you made a mistake. Or that those who you work with and for are useless because you have a degree, no one else can ever be right, unless of course it is another engineer. Was Edison an engineer? Or many of the other great men who invented things that were not schooled engineers? Steve

You know nothing about me or my working life. I make mistakes, and when I realize it...I fix them.

I know I'm generalizing about auto workers...but stereotypes are there for a reason.

I'm done because nothing useful can come out of this conversation. You won't listen to reason because you have your head stuck too far up your own backside to hear anything but what passes for your brainwaves.

quote Originally posted by AntiKev: You know nothing about me or my working life. I make mistakes, and when I realize it...I fix them. I know I'm generalizing about auto workers...but stereotypes are there for a reason. I'm done because nothing useful can come out of this conversation. You won't listen to reason because you have your head stuck too far up your own backside to hear anything but what passes for your brainwaves.

And that right their show your own arrogance the thing that most of pisses me off about the engineers I talk of, and I have never said every engineer is like that.

You fix them when they are wrong, after it is pointed out by the people who do the work that you created on a cad drawing?

And you must have forgotten that I am a tradesman now didn’t you. I only worked for GM for 15 years, not even half my working career. I spent more time under the mask than you ever will in your entire life, one because it started on the line 8 hours a day, but you forget I was also utility repair for over 10 years, not just a lowly line worker for all the time I worked at GM. In other words a repairman/absentee, So I may have spent 8 hours on the line I also spent many 12 hour nights fixing thing off the line at finally repair as well as inspection.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: One issue is that a high school education is crap where many who "graduate" are illiterate. Then those "graduates" go on to college and don't have a clue of how to read or have the ability to make a rational decision.

At 44, I completely changed gears and started school to become a welder in January. One of the required classes for the Associates degree is Composition. There is another guy in my class who is also in the welding program and wants the degree. He has already admitted to the teacher that he has no idea when to capitalize or where to put punctuation. It is my opinion that his counselor should have never allowed him into this class. He is wasting his money and not only his time but that of the teacher and the class.

Not that I don't want him to take it but he should have taken some remedial classes to get him to the point where he could at least PASS the class by EARNING a D or better. I don't want him to fail on any level but I've got a problem with teachers passing students because they "tried really hard and were disadvantaged". He either earned the grade or he didn't. He knows the material or he doesn't.

I think that is the reason behind awarding someone a degree after taking some classes which seem to make no sense. Putting them in situations where they may not be comfortable and seeing how they cope. To me, the welding Associates Degree says that not only am I capable of welding work, I can be used in other ways too. I'm multi-talented which makes me more desirable.

Jonathan

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: In a way, I can understand Steves point and to an extent agree with him...NO, neither of us could do an engineers job (well, me anymore, I am too out of date and rusty), and not many engineers could come out in the shop and do ours....THATS the point. Its been my experience that engineers/ designers (especially fresh out of school) have a tendency to over-analyze and over-calculate common sense items (I was no different out of Civil Tech in the 80's, I calculated every bolt on a formwork system every time)....it takes a few years to get the idea that common sense prevails and you dont need to. If a 3/8" worked on a 5k shore post the past 50 times, its going to work the next 50 and the aluminum is going to crush before the bolt shears, so drop the calculater and grab a wrench....THAT takes real-world experience, and guys like me and Steve who have been doing the shop end of things for a long time tend to overly discount the design process, just because its worked the past 50 times, so its going to the next 50 since its the exact same thing. Same applies to popcorn kettles....guys at the manufacturers design department put a lot of effort into , say, thermostat design----know what we do in the field?...if its a 450 or a 550 hi limit and it fits the mounts--use it. Dont care who made it, dont care what part number it is. It fits, its the right temperature, it'll work. ....same goes for a myriad of other pieces of machinery, but like I said that only comes with real-world experience.

I get a kick out of my co-worker that just completed a mechanical engineering degree. He was complaining that the product we have did not have any engineering design documentation to prove that it was safe. I laughed at him a bit as I explained that the lack of engineering was compensated for by substantial over building. We loaded 2600 pounds of servers and switches into a 42U rack, and brought it to a testing lab. The testing lab dropped it on its' side and while it was bent, everything worked, only the rack frame and mounting brackets were bent.

What we non engineers do is to just over build.

Something to think about.... over-building = wasted money.

quote Originally posted by FriendGregory: I get a kick out of my co-worker that just completed a mechanical engineering degree. He was complaining that the product we have did not have any engineering design documentation to prove that it was safe. I laughed at him a bit as I explained that the lack of engineering was compensated for by substantial over building. We loaded 2600 pounds of servers and switches into a 42U rack, and brought it to a testing lab. The testing lab dropped it on its' side and while it was bent, everything worked, only the rack frame and mounting brackets were bent. What we non engineers do is to just over build.

Its a shame that some of you have the perspective that you do...

I'm a young guy at 21, and my father was one of those men that spent 10-12hrs a day doing carpentry and home remodeling for most of his adult life. I helped build my own house, I've worked for him during summers and know what its like to be busting your ass doing hands on work in the hot sun as sweat pours down your back whether its digging an enclosure for a backyard pool or building a deck.

Maybe its my background that gives me such an unbiased view, but there is arrogance everywhere. Yes engineers can be idiots/ crunch numbers all day and completely fail to realize real world conditions that they should be designing for.. But so are many "skilled tradesmen" that think they're the end all be all because they've got 20/30/40 years under their belt and think they can MacGyver their asses out of any situation.

Everyone has their place, agree to that and stop babbling senselessness.

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: At 44, I completely changed gears and started school to become a welder in January. One of the required classes for the Associates degree is Composition. There is another guy in my class who is also in the welding program and wants the degree. He has already admitted to the teacher that he has no idea when to capitalize or where to put punctuation. It is my opinion that his counselor should have never allowed him into this class. He is wasting his money and not only his time but that of the teacher and the class. I think that is the reason behind awarding someone a degree after taking some classes which seem to make no sense. Putting them in situations where they may not be comfortable and seeing how they cope. To me, the welding Associates Degree says that not only am I capable of welding work, I can be used in other ways too. I'm multi-talented which makes me more desirable. Jonathan

Try to not forget that some classes people do not seek a degree. If he is, you are right, a college based degree assumes that the person can read detailed instructions, understand them, and give a competent report of the job status. There are sometimes good reasons to to have the entry level of a position be a degree but, depending on the requirements experience is enough evidence that the person is qualified. Everyone I work with has a degree and have Engineer attached to their title. Not me, and my pay level reflects it. I actually get more done than most of them and have no responsibility other than to assist.

quote Originally posted by nitroheadz28: . But so are many "skilled tradesmen" that think they're the end all be all because they've got 20/30/40 years under their belt and think they can MacGyver their asses out of any situation.

NOBODY is Macgyvering my azz, go MacGyver yer own !!! <ROTFFLMAO>

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Did you ever learn to weld?

Yes. I can weld wax paper to a teflon pan with a wood rod. I also leaned to lie like a welder, that counts too right, ?
Actually, the answer is no. I do alright but don't know zhit. I am working on the engineering part, . I have fabricated a frame hitch receiver for my riding mower, engineering in a greater tounge load, and it turned out pretty nice. I also welded on a hitch for my wheel around cement mixer, should have done it sooner. I wouldn't trust my welding abilities on the highway.
Steve, I share your disdain with some engineers. Just as I do with certain cops, politicians, sales persons, and certain everybody elses. When I was building helping in the building of oil drilling rigs, different phases of the project were funded by AFE's. Allocated funded expenditures. We called them another frackin engineer, .
The thing is Steve, engineers are people too. Not just people but people with a needed function. Yeah, maybe they mess up on somethings but, just like you and me, they are called on to do everything. I have found most to be receptive to my input. I am in awe of them just as I am with welders and most other people who can do what I can't. I do respect a welders engineering opinion of fabricating but my hat goes off to the engineers who fabricate derricks (and other things). I was recently up in my derrick in 50+mph winds and that thing was a movin'. My rig is newer and has a smaller footprint so I questioned it's stability. It was empty of pipe but pipe provides a greater wind catch (sail). I am sure a welder can build one which will never fall over but an engineer is able to make them smaller/lighter.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: BTW, The BDub has already made more in a single year than either of us ever made in a single year of our working life.

You wouldn't know it by looking at his Fiero, ... . Congrats Brenan, . PM at 'cha, no I don't want to borrow money, .