Degree = Temporary high paying jobs

The only purpose in earning a degree is if you are going into business by yourself....doctor, lawyer, dentist.....some field that requires you truly prove yourself. If you get a degree for "business administration", you might as well expect to be a temporary employee. Most office workers are pawns that are replaced within a few years, shuffled around, and are regularly unemployed. I have yet to see a person who works for a major firm as a standard "employee" with a degree that has lasted more than 10 years at the same company. I have no degree, make well over $100,000 per year, and have been in the same industry for 22 years with NO layoffs or down time due to unemployment.

But whatever floats your boat.


FYI, San Francisco's minimum wage is now $10.55 and San Jose is at $10.00

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 02-21-2013).]

My brother was a welder and he took college courses to help him get a jump on others who were learning while on the job. There is nothing wrong with a program/college, as a quick way to pick up additional skills and understanding of metallurgy. Same for electricians and the like.... you need to know more than what you can learn on the job, if you want to be successful, beyond just being a "tool" for the organization. The more you know, the better the opportunities.

My dad got lots of those 'overqualified' rejections. Larger companies have policies that say for xxxxx degree, they have to pay $xx.xx minimum. If your doing a job that dont require that degree theyre wasting money paying you a higher rate than they can get someone without it for. I will agree some intensive type professions do need college...things like medical, law, engineering degrees. At most real world jobs, you can learn more in a month on the job at minimum beginner wages than in 4 years of college and the $80-100K you save more than makes up for starting with min wage . I know LOTS of people with degrees in all kinds of fields and off the top of my head, I cant think of one that works in that field. Well maybe a few nurses and lawyers.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: The only reason I got any degree at all was ... It was as useful as toilet paper in anything ive done.

Playin' with you Roger, .
I am a high school drop out. I do quite well. Even if my vocation is depressed.

quote Originally posted by xquaid: We live in the 21st century where CHANGE and ENTREPRENEURSHIP drive the nation and economy individual forward, which drives the nation and economy forward. (just as it always has)

Fixed that for you though I agree with what you meant. We need to add hard work, sacrifice, and drive to succeed though, just as the college student does.

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: What I have seen is while the number of degrees/ College diplomas is WAY up, the quality of the education and the individual is WAY down ...

I have not been to college so I can't comment. I tend to agree by my compared observation. I attended the University of Hard Knocks. Graduated first in my class, .

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I got to agree with you on that one and have always said for every year someone spends in college they lose a year of common sense. Now go at me BDub.

Dub, , you took the bait. He agreed with someone else. I agree with them both. I do realize that common sense can be learned in college. Some that we may have missed, but, I think they are spot on. Street smarts is a real deal. Many in college, in my opinion, are still in a bubble world which they have been in through out their lives. A structured program with requirements. When you are free from that, when you are on your own, you learn a whole new set of life lessons. If you get an immediate job after school, you are still in a structured environment, .
I know that college came highly recommended by gooberment and I can agree on premise. However, ... ehh ... I think many take it as a safety blanket as to not get out on their own, and many to keep living the school/party lifestyle. As you allude, many take a bullzhit course/major and think that they are gonna make six figures.

quote Originally posted by GTGeff: Unfortunately, kids are being miss-advised about going to college rather than trade schools. I am sorry, but college isn’t for everybody. Of course, with the federal government giving them the money they shouldn’t only makes things worse. Blame a lot of this on the education lobby.

I agree but I think there is more. I think kids have been made to be afraid to fail. We don't let our kids fail anymore. A very important life lesson. Success is by definition "overcoming one failure at a time".

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: My brother was a welder and he took college courses to help him get a jump on others who were learning while on the job. There is nothing wrong with a program/college, as a quick way to pick up additional skills and understanding of metallurgy. Same for electricians and the like.... you need to know more than what you can learn on the job, if you want to be successful, beyond just being a "tool" for the organization. The more you know, the better the opportunities.

Ding ding ding, we have the makings of a winner. I would only add that you do not need to go to college to learn more. Go grab a college book. Answers abound on the internet for any questions you may have.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: Get used to hearing the word 'overqualified' Or more accurately, reading it in rejection emails, for the 2 out of 100 that actually bother responding.

Jeeze, a street smart person would very soon omit his qualifications but you do have a point.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: "It's not WHAT you know, it's WHO you know."

Or it can also be who you get to know. There is an art to that.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Well Steve, you're just the greatest. I'm glad you have all that common sense 'cause us educated folk wouldn't know what to do without ya! Just glad you're here to save us.

quote Originally posted by BlackEmrald: So what you are saying that that not all welders are the same? Are you saying that you are an exception to my experience with welders and that I shouldn't judge someone based solely on their trade? Are you saying that most welders are highly skilled tradesmen like yourself with lots of experience that can do a great job the first time? I agree. Now change the word "welders" to "engineers".

Now I see I have pissed off a couple of the younger engineers the guys just out of college, or just about to get out of college who think they know it all. I knew I would do that.
Let me ask both of you just how old you are?
How long you have worked in the field so far?
There are many kinds of welders out there just as there are many kinds of engineers out there. If you are under 30, both of you I see how you would know everything there is to being an engineer and know everything there is to engineering.

Now someone just out of school knows everything, I remember being that way myself at your age. But all you know is what you learned in school you have no real world experience at what you do, now do you. I have always said anyone out of school with any degree needs to spend a few years working all those jobs that you degree will be allowing you to tell them what to do and you will become better at you do.

I have more respect for the engineers I have dealt with that did the jobs before they got there degree. In other words they worked as a welder, fabricator, and grunt than I do those who just got that degree in whatever their degree is in. they know how that print is going to work not just on paper. Remember that, paper? The stuff blueprints started on in the beginning.

But go ahead get pissed, rant and rave, it will show so much maturity and common sense.

See here is the difference between me and you.

I can not only read blueprints I can draw them myself.
I can weld as well as fabricate, a welder just welds, does what he is told, “Run a bead there.”
I have gone well beyond that, as I said I can create from nothing with no prints from begging to end. I can do your job as well as mine, can you say that?

I was technically called a, “Welder/Fabricator/Ironworker.” At my last few welding jobs in my career before my stroke that took me out of the work force. But I didn’t do just that in my jobs, I was certified in my last few jobs as a fork truck driver, lull driver, lift a loft driver, boom truck operator, welder steel, stainless steel, aluminum, structural and a few more types of materials, safety man, job supervisor, lead man, confined space certified, and a few more things but I think that shows that I can do just a little bit more than just weld and all those things added to my resume.

Just how long is your resume?

See this is some of the things that give me a well-rounded resume as well as I am not just a welder. And that was just in heavy industrial construction, now I can also build a car from scratch as well as repair them, have an auto body damage appraisers certificate from the state of Taxachussettes. Certified auto welder, and the list goes on.

Now that I have made you degree look like what it is a piece of paper, how many of those or jobs in your fields have you done?

Not saying that piece of paper isn’t important, it is for you but just how many jobs can you really do in real life.

And as others have already said in this thread some of them in your field they can’t find anything but a minimum wage job right now because of the economy.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

No one is pissed off over here. I was just trying to prove a point that you shouldn't paint with such a wide brush. Everyone is different and at a different point in their career. Its no more fair to say all engineers are dumb than it is to say all dogs are black. I was never doubting you or your expierence. In fact, I think it would be a pleasure to work a job with someone of your skill level and I would readily bow to your expierence on the job.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Now I see I have pissed off a couple of the younger engineers the guys just out of college, or just about to get out of college who think they know it all. I knew I would do that. Let me ask both of you just how old you are? How long you have worked in the field so far? There are many kinds of welders out there just as there are many kinds of engineers out there. If you are under 30, both of you I see how you would know everything there is to being an engineer and know everything there is to engineering. Now someone just out of school knows everything, I remember being that way myself at your age. But all you know is what you learned in school you have no real world experience at what you do, now do you. I have always said anyone out of school with any degree needs to spend a few years working all those jobs that you degree will be allowing you to tell them what to do and you will become better at you do. I have more respect for the engineers I have dealt with that did the jobs before they got there degree. In other words they worked as a welder, fabricator, and grunt than I do those who just got that degree in whatever their degree is in. they know how that print is going to work not just on paper. Remember that, paper? The stuff blueprints started on in the beginning. But go ahead get pissed, rant and rave, it will show so much maturity and common sense. See here is the difference between me and you. I can not only read blueprints I can draw them myself. I can weld as well as fabricate, a welder just welds, does what he is told, “Run a bead there.” I have gone well beyond that, as I said I can create from nothing with no prints from begging to end. I can do your job as well as mine, can you say that? I was technically called a, “Welder/Fabricator/Ironworker.” At my last few welding jobs in my career before my stroke that took me out of the work force. But I didn’t do just that in my jobs, I was certified in my last few jobs as a fork truck driver, lull driver, lift a loft driver, boom truck operator, welder steel, stainless steel, aluminum, structural and a few more types of materials, safety man, job supervisor, lead man, confined space certified, and a few more things but I think that shows that I can do just a little bit more than just weld and all those things added to my resume. Just how long is your resume? See this is some of the things that give me a well-rounded resume as well as I am not just a welder. And that was just in heavy industrial construction, now I can also build a car from scratch as well as repair them, have an auto body damage appraisers certificate from the state of Taxachussettes. Certified auto welder, and the list goes on. Now that I have made you degree look like what it is a piece of paper, how many of those or jobs in your fields have you done? Not saying that piece of paper isn’t important, it is for you but just how many jobs can you really do in real life. And as others have already said in this thread some of them in your field they can’t find anything but a minimum wage job right now because of the economy. Steve

You haven't pissed me off--you've irritated me.

I don't know everything about being an engineer. In fact, I hardly know anything about it. School taught me the basics, but nothing close to what I'll learn on the job. The piece of paper just says I'm trainable. That's it. And I understand that. I am not some know-it-all-kid. I can just see through the fallacy you've claimed a million times on here that college is bad for you.

I don't care what you can and can't do, Steve. I'm sure you're a great welder, and can do a great many jobs. People don't need college to learn anything, I completely understand that. But college helps with the foundation.

And you can't do my job, because you aren't in my field, Steve. Here's a little piece of trivia for you: As an intern, I worked 12 hour shifts right along with the drilling crew. They still know way more than I do about what goes on on that rig. But they don't know what's going on downhole, and I do. We are a team, Steve. They can't get oil without me, I can't get oil without them. We are equals. That's what you don't understand about me, Steve. I don't know everything and completely accept that. You think I think I know it all just because I went to college. I'm saying people in all areas can be idiots and can be good common sense workers, you're saying welders are the **** and engineers are **** . Well that's a great way to look at it, Steve, but like it or not you need engineers, and they need you. So quit bitching about it and move on.

Oh, and I don't have to worry about that minimum wage thing. I had common sense enough to choose a good degree program, and accepted a job last September.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: But go ahead get pissed, rant and rave, it will show so much maturity and common sense. .....snip...... See here is the difference between me and you. .....snip..... And as others have already said in this thread some of them in your field they can’t find anything but a minimum wage job right now because of the economy. Steve

I think your post was a long enough rant, I'll keep mine short.

What exactly is the point of all those jobs/tasks you listed? You think we won't be able to do different jobs by the time we're your age because we're college educated?

And most of the time it's not the economy, it's the person themselves.

Really want a good ticket? Get a job and work your way up, allowing them to pay for your schooling. It does exist. Doesnt matter if you start in the mailroom if you are a good worker.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Oh, and I don't have to worry about that minimum wage thing. I had common sense enough to choose a good degree program, and accepted a job last September.

I hope that job offer is still there when you graduate or when it comes time but something you have to realize is that is all it is, an offer than can be retracted at any time. See in this economy every job is at risk, even those here who have degrees and have been working are out of work NOW. Don’t depend on that degree as a guaranty that you will always have a job in your field of study.

quote Originally posted by BlackEmrald: No one is pissed off over here. I was just trying to prove a point that you shouldn't paint with such a wide brush. Everyone is different and at a different point in their career. Its no more fair to say all engineers are dumb than it is to say all dogs are black. I was never doubting you or your expierence. In fact, I think it would be a pleasure to work a job with someone of your skill level and I would readily bow to your expierence on the job.

See you don’t need to bow to anyone’s experience just respect it and you will learn more from those older guys than you ever did in college. BDud did it right he is working with others, whether he is on the crew sweeting with them or just watching he is learning things they never taught him in college. You have to understand that experience has just as important if not more important than that college time.

I don’t look down on engineers until they pull the “It worked on paper” or “It worked in the CAD” line. There are many here that know a lot more than me in their field and many who haven’t got a clue about what is going on right now. They think their job is safe; none are safe even if you own your own business in this economy. See it is more like the depression than the recession that the government keeps telling us and those with jobs are lucky to have them and keep them.

Those who own their own company are at the mercy of the economy and their customer base, unless they already have enough money to retire right now and even then with the price of food and gas and every other thing is going up so that next egg may not be enough to retire now.

I hope what I think is wrong, I really do, but I am looking more and more right as every day passes.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by nitroheadz28: This is my experience FWIW... I go to a technology "driven" college, when in high school I was challenged and motivated by many of my teachers. When I started college, I automatically saw that almost ALL of the professors in my department were a joke. By this I mean that I have 60-85 year old professors teaching programs like CAD/CAM/Inventor and classes like electronics packaging and tool design. These professors can barely turn a computer on, when asked a question about the program being used the answer is- ask the smart kid in the class.. The other classes that involve design such as the aforementioned ones are a joke, they spend 2 hours reading random crap and 2 hours of "lab" doing busy work designing whatever they give us (no challenge whatsoever, just busy work..). I know that this is a specific case, but my higher education has been a joke so far. I once asked one of the newer professors- "We barely learn anything here, what the hell are we supposed to do when we get a job so we don't look like idiots?". His response was that we learn pretty much everything on the job and whatever we "learn" here is just to make sure we aren't complete dumb@$$es.. So yeah..

I X2 this...

I took a Automatic transmission class a few years back. While we did a decent ammount of lab work, the NEWEST transmission we worked on was a 700R4 from 1985. Before that, we worked on a TH400, a Powerglide, A Ford C4 from the 60s and a 70s 904 Chrysler transmission. I always sat and thought "man - overhauling this powerglide is REALLY gonna pay off when someone throws a 4L80E or a 4T65E-HD in front of me!" We didnt work on anything - FWD, AWD/4WD, or anything out of the normal RWD configuration. The best thing about the older instructors like that? The tangent stories - gotta love em. "I remember the first time I built up a Turbo 400. It was back in 72 in my El Camino...I remember racing this guy in a GTO..." Then the rest of class is race stories. Granted, this does nothing to further our edjumahcation at all, but it sure does provide hours of entertainment.
"you learn pretty much everything on the job and whatever you "learn" here is just to make sure you aren't complete dumb@$$es in the field!" That line has never been used more than in my 2ish years of automotive classes. X_x

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I have many other skills that I didn’t mention because it would have made the post even longer. What I was trying to explain was that this is a different world than what most of us older folks grew up in. we grew up where you worked one job until you retired, now you work a dozen different jobs even when you got a degree. Steve

Are you trying to say it's better you had to learn more skills to work the one job you did until you retired than someone today working different jobs until they find something that fits works? Just trying to get a clear picture of what you're trying to tell us younger folks.


*life choice story ahead*

fwiw, I started working at the bank as a junior in high school. After working with them for two years and really liking my coworkers and the atmosphere, I asked my superiors what I should do if I wanted to work my way up in the company. They said a degree would be required, so that's what I decided to do. I started in Finance, but didn't really like all the numbers and math involved and since I'd rather work with people than paper I switched to a basic Organizational Management degree. It's broad enough to be applicable to any organization that needs managing.

Through other contacts I have made while at school, I now have a good chance at getting an internship this Spring with a corporation called Synthes. This would involve working alongside a surgical instrument representative. Delivering the titanium plates, screws, etc. to the hospitals in a 100 mile radius around Duluth, and then getting to sit in on surgeries to provide suggestions and pointers to the surgeons themselves on how to use the instruments best.

I asked the guy I'd be interning under about my basic degree, he said that all I need for the company is a piece of paper that says I've been in school for 4 years. They hire based on the person, and all the skills and knowledge is learned on the job. He says that I'd intern for him for about a year, then he would break off some of his territory up here in Duluth, since he's run so thin already. He tells me after I get my own territory I'd be working all the time, at the whim of the surgeons, making ~$70k a year.

Should that fall through, which I don't see happening, since he doesn't have any other candidates, I can always go back working 40 hours/week at ~$18/hr as a bank teller, with good chances of a promotion within a year since I already have over five years experience there.

[This message has been edited by 1988holleyformula (edited 02-21-2013).]

quote Originally posted by 1988holleyformula: I asked the guy I'd be interning under about my basic degree, he said that all I need for the company is a piece of paper that says I've been in school for 4 years. They hire based on the person, and all the skills and knowledge is learned on the job.

This is reality in alot of jobs.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: This is reality in alot of jobs.

I have always loved working with my hands and my mind together creating something at the end that I could say I built that or at least I helped build that. Had opportunities at many jobs to become management even gave it a try at a couple, didn’t like it at all.

You can do whatever you like but remember it all boils down to what you enjoy doing that pays the bills and never stop learning, (I don’t mean in school) if you don’t learn something new every day you may as well be dead and just might be as time progresses.

Our fearless leaders are only in it for their own gain not to help anyone else. Look at all those we have now and most of them that is a true statement.

We have to look out for ourselves without trying to screw people over to get to the top, something else our fearless leaders forgot about. We should also never depend on someone else as well and I am not just talking about government handouts as some like to call it, or the lord will take care of us. That one because I am an atheist just doesn’t cut it. If there is a god why is what is happening around the world happening? That was rhetorical so don’t bother replying to it.
You need to depend on yourself and your abilities and hone them every day.

Oh ya and just so you all know college is just like any business, they are out for your money; why else would they be making you take useless courses for your area of learning? And like someone else said the things they teach you in many cases are so outdated it is useless other than to give you some background in things you may already know. Tech schools in most cases are the same, go out into the real world like many here did and work and learn.


Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Oh ya and just so you all know college is just like any business, they are out for your money; why else would they be making you take useless courses for your area of learning? And like someone else said the things they teach you in many cases are so outdated it is useless other than to give you some background in things you may already know. Tech schools in most cases are the same, go out into the real world like many here did and work and learn. Steve

Steve, accredited colleges/universities have less to say about what their students take, than you think. The accreditation body is responsible for a lot of what is "required". Also, there are industrial advisory boards, which are made up of people from various industries (for example, an engineering degree). These boards also evaluate the program to make sure the students are prepared to work in the world. Is it bad to require a foreign language? Is it bad they require students to have reading/comprehension and other skills? Sure, a dance class may sounds silly, but what if an engineering student decides to take up bio-mechanical engineering because what he/she learned in their "unnecessary" course. Foreign language? That could land the student in nice job overseas.

Not all universities/colleges are out for money. Sure, it is nice to learn while working on your job, but you are at the mercy of the person training you. They don't have to be qualified, certified or anything like that, so as long as someone said they should train you (you = general, not you personally).

Sure, there are people with degrees and they are idiots, but there are also people out there without degrees who are idiots also

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Really want a good ticket? Get a job and work your way up, allowing them to pay for your schooling. It does exist. Doesnt matter if you start in the mailroom if you are a good worker.

My thoughts exactly. You may not even need any schooling if you learn all you need on the job. They might just do like some automotive fields where they will send you to tech seminars along the way. Ive had plenty of auto shop tech school graduates ask for a job. I wont even consider them. 1/ they always want double or triple starting rate, 2/ they generally are 'know it alls' because they took a school for it. In the real world, 85% of what you would learn in school is never done. Id hire a guy who painted friends cars for fun right out of high school if he did a good enough job first. I had a guy once, years ago that went to school and I tried him out for a few days. I gave him a car with just a pretty dented front fender. He took the fender off, used a torch to heat and shrink the panel and dolly it out. He didnt need much filler at all. Thing is he spent 15 hours ($450) fixing a fender that could have been replaced for $150. This would be fine for some classic that didnt have an available replacement, but for an everyday car it dont make sense.

An awful lot of people discounting educations and the like in this thread. I thought this forum was about Fieros? It is my understanding that Fieros where a budget commuter car from the 80s. With that in mind, I really have to take into to consideration the financials of MOST of the people on PFF. Sure there are a few that have saved their nickels, got great paying jobs, or lucked into things... I think for the most part, people are into Fieros because they enjoy the car and it is within their budget. Emphases on the budget part.

Having said that, this might not be the best polling spot to find out how to make good money in this world. Statistically speaking college graduates earn more than high-school graduates. Just a [url=https://www.google.com/search?q=college+pay+vs+highschool&oq=college+pay+vs+highschool&aqs=chrome.0.57.4408&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&spell=1&q=college+pay+vs+high+school&sa=X&ei=zIwmUZulK6f-2QWjwoCYCQ&ved=0CDAQBSgA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_q f.&bvm=bv.42661473,d.b2I&fp=50b26647ad5972f8&biw=1440&bih=775]FACT[/url]

Steve we've all read thousands of times about your stance on engineers. Personally, I am tired of reading it. It is just a blind "hatred". There are people like that in all fields. I don't know you personally, but you bragged pretty hard about all you can do (I do believe you likely used to a decent welder). You then go on to tell Brennan and the collective of all engineers that you can do their job, have, and that they are idiots. If I consistently have a problem with people in different situations, I take time to consider if the issue could actually me.


About the article. I think this is a trend that has been ongoing for a while. Especially with all the "free" government money. I could eventually see "nationalized" colleges if our country continues on this path. I know a number of people with degrees. Few apply them to their actual field, with the except of lawyers, doctors and the life. The ones that do "well" likely would have done well regardless. My partner at work has a poly-sci major and likely will never apply it to our company. His best friend has some kind of public speaking major and the same goes for him. We all make good money regardless of whether we would/did go to college. My good friend has a degree and does nothing with it and makes around $30,000 a year. His parents spent a good deal of money for him to get a computer help desk job. He likely would be doing similar regardless of education. His parents set him up with the job also. Plenty of people aren't college material. Plenty are. Some people are just more likely to succeed. Such is life, I hope it stays that way. I prefer a more "survival of the fittest" approach to life. Separates the people who are losers, leeches and sponges.

Cool I make more money than someone with a doctorate degree:

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 02-21-2013).]

I've always been a college boy, got one in psychology, and then a master's in psychology. I'm doing fine. Got a house, two cars, and time and money to do the things I want. Worked lots of labor jobs but that was not for me. I like using my brain since I can do that well into my old age, since each year I just get wiser and more valuable to my employer. But, also I am a product myself so I can always find work. I never regret college, but I do notice that college kids today are very different. Often they are very lazy, not very motivated, and not what would be considered college material of yesterday. I agree too many kids are going to college and for the wrong reason.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: An awful lot of people discounting educations and the like in this thread.

Certainly not me. I wish I had more of an education as it would enable me for the better. The thing is, between impossible schedule conflicts, a good income (above college level wages), and a decent intellect, I have not seen the need. I did not see any discount the benefits of college education. I see this whole thread as commenting towards the mediocre worth of a college degree. In comparison to the preaching that a college degree is the new high school diploma of success.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Statistically speaking college graduates earn more than high-school graduates. Just a FACT .

Yeah well, I guess I concur. So what ? That does not mean everyone who goes to college because of that idea will. That is also a fact. I have for many years questioned, not the expense of a college degree, but the work in obtaining one. In lieu of the cost/return. I see the yearly salaries (of other vocations than mine) compared to teachers, policemen, and others required to have a college degree, where as you speak to the lifetime earnings of all college degreed earners. I know mechanics, water well drilling persons, plumbers, and other technical employees who make more than my neighbor the police officer, my neighbor the vice principal of an elementary school, and some salary figures I have seen here and there. If I recall, before our great recession, there were news reports on the lack of tech workers and how it enhanced the wages of being one. On how it was becoming a lost art. I see it also. Many I know think I am a miracle worker, as I can fix just about anything. My mother in law, devoutly religious, asks me to come "lay my hands on" her mechanical needs.
Then, there is the fact that, per your link, student loan defaults are at alarming rates. That particular link does not say that but a consensus confirms it, if I am not mistaken. Your link also says A college education may not be worth as much as you think. Most researchers agree that college graduates, even in rough economies, generally fare better than individuals with only high-school diplomas. But just how much better is where the math gets fuzzy.
Four years of college, say a $100,000 debt, could equal to a $240,000 loss in earning if one worked entry level where I do. Which is also fuzzy as after four years, one would not be making entry level wages.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Plenty of people aren't college material. Plenty are. Some people are just more likely to succeed. Such is life, I hope it stays that way. I prefer a more "survival of the fittest" approach to life. Separates the people who are losers, leeches and sponges.

I like Darwin too,

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: I thought this forum was about Fieros?

It can be, even in the subsection, .

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Sure, there are people with degrees and they are idiots, but there are also people out there without degrees who are idiots also

Never said there weren’t as a matter of fact I agree with most of the other part of your statement but the problem is this.
Facts
Going to college puts you deeply in debt long before you ever get any return on that college degree.

Going to work right after high school gets you paid immediately. So using that as a starting point and my work history, I was more than $100,000 ahead of the college graduate and had no debt so I think that right there put me ahead.

While after you finally pay off that college degree and work the rest of your life you may be ahead of me, but is it something you enjoy?

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Steve we've all read thousands of times about your stance on engineers. Personally, I am tired of reading it. It is just a blind "hatred". There are people like that in all fields. I don't know you personally, but you bragged pretty hard about all you can do (I do believe you likely used to a decent welder). You then go on to tell Brennan and the collective of all engineers that you can do their job, have, and that they are idiots. If I consistently have a problem with people in different situations, I take time to consider if the issue could actually me.

As far as my hatred of engineers it really isn’t of just engineers and I really wouldn’t call it hatred. Just the fact that kids who graduate from college think they know it all when in reality they are just learning something that can be taught in the school of hard knocks. While you won’t get the degree you can and in many cases do earn more.

Seems only those with college educations are the only ones who don’t agree with my assessment of higher education.

Steve

Need to add that I take offence at this statement,

(I do believe you likely used to a decent welder)

I still am an exceptional welder, problem is that my health no longer allows me to do it as a job or even teach (that I would never be any good at, no patients). I can’t work for more than an hour or two anymore, forget things too quickly, and not the things from years ago but the things I just did a few seconds ago and that can be dangerous to me and my welding if it is anything that is critical. Even just writing a paragraph here is very difficult for me as I can forget to type a word in a sentence or forget the last paragraph I wrote or am replying to.

I still get calls from companies I have worked for that doesn’t know I had my stroke asking me to work for them and must decline the offers. I always explain why and thank them for their offer and will sometimes even recommend an old workmate for the job.

Skills are learned and not always in college or tech schools., learned over time.

Steve


------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-22-2013).]

One issue is that a high school education is crap where many who "graduate" are illiterate. Then those "graduates" go on to college and don't have a clue of how to read or have the ability to make a rational decision. On the job training is a good way to go along with apprenticeship programs. After high school I got a two year associates degree in chemistry, and got a good job in a laboratory, The draft came along and I enlisted in the Air Force where, after basic training, I went on to technical school for eighteen weeks, then a nine months on the job training, as a clinical laboratory technologist before my first "real" assignment..Vietnam. The training was valuable, but even in those days (1970s) and the all volunteer military, I saw degrdation of the quality on new "recruites, high school "graduates" who were ill prepared for technical work.

Any more with a BS degree, maybe the graduate can read but then they expect a high salary still with no work skills. A BS in French liturature is a worthless degree unless you use it to teach others French liturature.

I'll be able to relate with some of the main posters in this thread. First off, I just want to say that degree or not, when it comes to jobs, you need a SKILL. I don't care if you went to school and learned about the law, or if you sat around in your uncles barn and fixed farm equipment. If you have a SKILL you will most likely do just fine. I have become friends with many people in college who are going for some stupid ass pointless degrees that may do well in their classes, but don't have any common sense, and don't know how to do **** . I also have a very close friend who was going for an electrical engineering degree, but circumstances prevented him from finishing school. He enjoyed what he was going for, and did many projects on the side as a hobbyist. When things didn't go well with school, he had NO problem finding a job paying 40k+ even without a degree, and is now making over $60k, still without a degree. His current job is paying for him to finish off the remaining courses. The thing is, hes a genius when it comes to circuits and board design. He is very creative, knows electrical and mechanical design software, and offers his company both custom board solutions, and also the physical enclosure designs. He is successful because he has a SKILL.

On the other hand, my current industry is in mechanized welding. This is where I was getting at with my first statement of this post. I see a lot of welders come through our shop that are both trained and self-taught. As a mechanical engineer, some of them get along with me, some of them don't at first. A lot of my design comes from a lot of THEIR feedback. They are the ones using my equipment, they are the ones that know what they like, and what they don't. I earn their respect, just as they earn mine. I know a lot about welding from the theoretical side of things, but they are the ones that can actual weld. They are the welders, they have their job because they offer that SKILL. They know what kind of controls they want from their equipment, and I know what it takes to get those lead/lag angles, torch yaw movements, osc/avc, etc. They don't do the motion profile studies or motor torque/speed calculations, and I don't try to learn what sort of parameter sets they will program for each scheduled section around a pipe. I have my skills, they have theirs. If neither of us had a skill, we would neither have a job. These are guys that all hands-on, making over $100k, and don't have college degrees.

Since I graduated 2 years ago, I have been to Canada and France to visit companies that are in the same field as my small company (less than 20 people), have advanced significantly financially, and have learned more than I could have imagined when I was in school. My college degree didn't teach me the skills I need to succeed in this field. My college experience gave me the FOUNDATION I needed to be able to succeed. I have been contacted by two much larger competitor companies seeking me to join their teams in the past 2 months, not because of where I went to school, but because of recognition for what I've done at my current company.

College or NOT, if you don't have a SKILL, you can't expect to be desired for a job.

quote Facts Going to college puts you deeply in debt long before you ever get any return on that college degree.

Not a fact.

[This message has been edited by mikejhjr (edited 02-22-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: College or NOT, if you don't have a SKILL, you can't expect to be desired for a job.

Actually, its a combination of acquired skills.

I put in a resume for a 6-month (with a good shot at permanent hire after the 6 months) "dream" contract around 3 this afternoon, by 3:30 they had e-mailed back to set up an interview, and I meet with them Monday at 1pm. If I get it, it will mean dumping my current one and probably some burned bridges, but thats life.

The job is 3-on, 4-off, 12-hr shifts and a NICE pay structure, traveling (company vehicle, all expenses advanced) Ontario servicing appliances for a property management company. ALL of the jobs/ contracts I have done and skills learned the past 7 years came into play on this one.

My business, engineering, CAD or flight education has NOTHING to do with it, every last skill was learned at a poison-ivy league school of hard knocks.

quote Originally posted by mikejhjr: Not a fact.

So a guy graduating and starting his first doctor job at 30 years old with a medical degree isnt 1/4 million dollars (low estim) in debt on his first day......? (well not if someone gave him that money) How many years will he work starting at the bottom of that ladder before he breaks even. Prob about the time he can retire in most cases. In the meantime, a guy who dont go to college and has no debt for it, starts his own business and saves up for his retirement. For 20 years of my business being really good, I made more in my hands than most college people I KNEW. I could have retired at 50 if id wanted and owed no one.

Couple of things with this article... and the premise as being discussed by the OP...

College Degrees are important if you want to succeed in life. The world... human civilization works on the concept of supply and demand. Animals go extinct because of supply and demand. Jobs pay more (or less) because of supply and demand. If someone wants to succeed in life, they need to do whatever they can to ensure that they are going to be marketable. "NEED" is purely subjective, and is dependent upon the person getting the degree and what their aspirations are. The United States has no shortage of cheap labor, but it does have a shortage of good-paying jobs. To compete for these jobs, you need to have a college degree to even be considered. When competition is high, they will take the person who appears on paper to be the most qualified. A person who might be very intelligent, and exceptionally good at something won't get picked in an interview if that individual shows deficiencies "on paper" during an interview or resume evaluation process.

The United States doesn't so much have an excess of college degrees, it has a "shortage" of good college degrees. There are far too many people who go to school for things that simply are non-competitive. Most liberal arts degrees are theoretically useless to the individual that's attempting to get a technology-related job, or any job for that matter that requires specialization. In the end, you find these individuals getting masters degrees with a liberal arts bachelors degree, and then while being well educated, they never got a solid foundation for that which they have specialized in during their masters program.

For the record, one of the reasons why outsourcing (in the computer industry) has become so prevelant is as a result of lack of good talent (in that particular career field). Outsourcing doesn't always mean shipping jobs overseas. In many cases, they hire people (from India, Pakistan, and China) to come to the US and work IN the US, in the same office as everyone else... but being paid as a contractor. This is exactly how it was done at some of my previous jobs in the medical industry because we simply could not find enough qualified individuals. Just one of those things. I wrote a paper (a while back) detailing outsourcing in the computer industry for anyone who cares to read it: http://www.pontiacperforman...twareOutsourcing.pdf
For what it's worth, outsourcing in the IT industry is a whole different animal than outsourcing in production and most other fields. One thing to take away from the document is the fact that based on percentages to population, China produces an overwhelming vast majority of more engineers than the United States does. On the other hand, the United States offers a vast number of more liberal arts degrees than any other country. The United States (as a whole) is considerd (by far) to have more superior schools than any other country in the world. A lot of individuals come to America to get their degree and then move back to their country to become wildly successful. This will only last for so long though before good professors in technology die, and the science / technology moves overseas.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I got to agree with you on that one and have always said for every year someone spends in college they lose a year of common sense. I know a lot here hate to here that, my wife included, but from those I saw at digital equipment and other places they can’t even change a tire by themselves. Even most of the engineers I have worked with don’t have enough brains to blow their own nose, never mind in their field of study.

How about the individual that goes to college for a specific field "after hours" in night classes, while working in their career field that they are also getting the degree for, that can do both technical, and not only change a tire, but rebuild engines? Heheh...

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: As far as my hatred of engineers it really isn’t of just engineers and I really wouldn’t call it hatred. Just the fact that kids who graduate from college think they know it all when in reality they are just learning something that can be taught in the school of hard knocks. While you won’t get the degree you can and in many cases do earn more. Seems only those with college educations are the only ones who don’t agree with my assessment of higher education. Steve

Nope. I don't agree with it either--and I don't have a college education. I got my training the same way you and CliffW did,
And I also disagree that what you have is NOT a hatred.

You say you can do all the things the enigneers did--without having to go to college.
Really?

No--you didn't and no you can't--and neither can I--Neither can CliffW.

It's REAL easy, to begin when a project's work is 7/8- 15/16 alrerady done, and say:
"I can do this--don't need no clloge diploma for this crap"

That, is where you are dead wrong, always have been and always will be.
You had a basic idea, but with all the tools, equipment, and, the material goods that some engineers had already provided for you--all you have to do is assemble them. Unless you can design a smelter, a miningig operation, power distribution systems on a large scale, steel making plants, and the machinery that turns out the steel, you can't do what the engineers did. You can't even design the basic components of a 6011 welding rod--but an engineer can--and did.

I need a 30' X 40' X 12' steel building put up behind my house. Can you do it?
I'll provide 600 tons of premium yeild iron ore. I'll give you a bit of a break, since you are old and stroke ridden--I'll provide as many boulders as you need to get the crushed rock for the concrete. ALL the rest is up to you, and you can not use ANYTHING an engineer has already provided or designed. This time--you get to start at square one--not with 95% of the work already done. Get started.
I'd like it done in my lifetime if you please.

BTW, The BDub has already made more in a single year than either of us ever made in a single year of our woring life.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: So a guy graduating and starting his first doctor job at 30 years old with a medical degree isnt 1/4 million dollars (low estim) in debt on his first day......? (well not if someone gave him that money) How many years will he work starting at the bottom of that ladder before he breaks even. Prob about the time he can retire in most cases. In the meantime, a guy who dont go to college and has no debt for it, starts his own business and saves up for his retirement. For 20 years of my business being really good, I made more in my hands than most college people I KNEW. I could have retired at 50 if id wanted and owed no one.

In that case, yes, if someone was $250K in debt then they would be paying off loans after graduation. But it still isn't a fact that going to school means you take on debt. And the "bottom of the ladder" definition is also not a good group to throw all college graduates in. For a strong degree a "bottom of the ladder" job still comes with a very decent paycheck.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: For the record, one of the reasons why outsourcing (in the computer industry) has become so prevelant is as a result of lack of good talent (in that particular career field). Outsourcing doesn't always mean shipping jobs overseas. In many cases, they hire people (from India, Pakistan, and China) to come to the US and work IN the US, in the same office as everyone else...

Outsourcing in IT is primarily because of H1B visa's, that companies abuse and never get called on. It allows them to bring in workers from overseas who are willing to work for nothing. It's not that there is a lack of qualified individuals, it's that they don't want to pay the ones we have.

summary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL_fTICwFCA

More in-depth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6p6oGY7Nws

We are not competing with China and India. Competition implies an even playing field. Employers want employees they can pay nothing, and quickly dispose of.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: Outsourcing in IT is primarily because of H1B visa's, that companies abuse and never get called on. It allows them to bring in workers from overseas who are willing to work for nothing. It's not that there is a lack of qualified individuals, it's that they don't want to pay the ones we have. summary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL_fTICwFCA More in-depth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6p6oGY7Nws We are not competing with China and India. Competition implies an even playing field. Employers want employees they can pay nothing, and quickly dispose of.

So, couple of things... your video is at best, over 6 years old... though I must say LouDobbs Tonight is much better now that it's on Fox Business than it was on CNN. In any case, the video talks more about amnesty than it does the actual discussion we're talking about here. What it does discuss doesn't cover the true qualifications of the individuals that graduate with degrees. There are a plethora of degrees that are offered from private institutions that don't even meet the msot basic "regional" accredidation requirements. Nearly half of the schools that provide these degrees that the department of education talks about in it's report (back then) were from private colleges that get their accredidation from the "national" accredidation program, which is not recognized by the overwhelming vast majority of businesses or other higher learning institutions.

Read the report that I wrote, and you'll see a huge disparity between graduates here and graduates elsewhere in legitimate college programs.

In so far as hiring of contractors go... it costs SUBSTANTIALLY more to hire contractors.... SUBSTANTIALLY... than it does to hire someone off the street. I know this because I've been responsible for hiring some of them AFTER we couldn't find any candidates that were even remotely qualified. There's also the taboo discussion of work ethic... and I'll just be dead honest with you. If you come in with dread-locks, long hair, piercings, or you couldn't even concern yourself enough to wear a suit, then I'm not going to hire you.

They hired an indian guy to work at the football team. Not only is he an extremely hard worker, but he is ALWAYS on time, and always willing to go the extra mile. We got him through a consulting agency, and now he works directly for the company with a work visa. What we paid for him in the beginning was substantially more than what we were offering for the job. What he makes more now as an employee is substantially more than what his position was originally being offered for.

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: Which is EXACTLY why, for the past 15 years, I take courses and not a degree/ diploma....if I want to learn to basket-weave, I will take a basket-weaving course, DONT try to bundle it with a PT-6 repair course.... I picked up the attitude in the 90's at flight school. 1st place was a private academy, and when they wanted us to start writing book reports on Shakespere (and wouldnt accept critisism) I found a new place QUICK. I STILL dont understand what liking a 500-year-dead author has to do with being able to throw yourself at the ground at several hundred miles an hour and miss !!

1) The PT-6 and basket weaving? So you can fashion the duct tape to hold the igniter in the combustion section. (JOKE)

2) So you can remember "To be or not to be" when almost crashing. (JOKE)

quote Originally posted by mikejhjr: In that case, yes, if someone was $250K in debt then they would be paying off loans after graduation. But it still isn't a fact that going to school means you take on debt. And the "bottom of the ladder" definition is also not a good group to throw all college graduates in. For a strong degree a "bottom of the ladder" job still comes with a very decent paycheck.

No. Unless you can pay as you go or someone pays for you, everyone leaves college oweing a huge debt. I know one person as an example who is just in college for graphic arts. Her tuition is $30K a year. Her part time job pays her a few hundred a week. She is going to have a big debt, as are most others when she graduates. She WILL start work at the bottom of the ladder in her field...and thats if she gets a job in that field. Ill guess thats a pretty good field right now. Shes not going to start at $1000 @ week, and shes still got to pay back the $100,000+ loan. At $500-$1000 a month payments, its still going to be a very long time before shes out of debt on that loan. Most Ive known, dont even pay $500 a month on their school loans...lucky to make 1/2 of that.

How about a poll here for those that just graduated in the last few years. Whats your total debt ?...how do you pay it? Is your job in your degree field ? Did you start out with a med-high pay scale within that company or at the lower end within the company ?

You dont get out of med school with a license to practice and make $200,000 a year as a surgeon the day you start. You might get $500 (i really dont know) a week in ER. I know one guy who got his degree, and flight time to work towards a Command Pilot in a national air charter service (NetJets). He started at $275 @ week. One of my uncles worked up to a Delta Airlines command pilot and retired at $60,000 a year.

Change my mind.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 02-23-2013).]

For general information:

Starting Doctor salaries: http://jobs.aol.com/article...02/01/doctor-salary/

Starting salary
Starting salaries for family practice medical doctor post-residency work have a national average of $120,000*. There is a wide range of first year salary expectations depending on medical specialty. Generalists typically earn lower starting salaries while specialists who go through additional years of residency should expect a higher than average salary.


Average salary
A family practice doctor's average salary is $166,000** while top plastic surgeons can reach in excess of $459,000**. Larger institutions tend to pay physicians more than smaller private practices, according to Payscale's Median Salary By Company Size Charts.


Your starting out doc in the ER: " emergency medicine physicians is $180,000." according to http://www.ehow.com/about_5...alary-physician.html

[NOT AN ATTACK ON ANYONE.... FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. REMEMBER AS WITH ANY INFO SOURCE ON THE NET... IT MAY BE A FEW FIGURES WRONG.]

I was curious as to what a doc actually made, so I looked it up, so I am sharing what I found.

man, im in the wrong line of work.

[This message has been edited by htexans1 (edited 02-23-2013).]

Tks for the reseach Tex. That was also a best case....most people wont be going to med school. They do start higher than Id expected. I also thought all doctors had to do a period of residency before being on their own. I dont know everything.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: No. Unless you can pay as you go or someone pays for you, everyone leaves college oweing a huge debt. I know one person as an example who is just in college for graphic arts. Her tuition is $30K a year. Her part time job pays her a few hundred a week. She is going to have a big debt, as are most others when she graduates. She WILL start work at the bottom of the ladder in her field...and thats if she gets a job in that field. Ill guess thats a pretty good field right now. Shes not going to start at $1000 @ week, and shes still got to pay back the $100,000+ loan. At $500-$1000 a month payments, its still going to be a very long time before shes out of debt on that loan. Most Ive known, dont even pay $500 a month on their school loans...lucky to make 1/2 of that. How about a poll here for those that just graduated in the last few years. Whats your total debt ?...how do you pay it? Is your job in your degree field ? Did you start out with a med-high pay scale within that company or at the lower end within the company ? You dont get out of med school with a license to practice and make $200,000 a year as a surgeon the day you start. You might get $500 (i really dont know) a week in ER. I know one guy who got his degree, and flight time to work towards a Command Pilot in a national air charter service (NetJets). He started at $275 @ week. One of my uncles worked up to a Delta Airlines command pilot and retired at $60,000 a year. Change my mind.

My Associates of Arts in Computer Science (two year degree from a community college) cost me about ~$250 per class through the late 90s and into the mid 2000s (yeah, took me a while). I paid as I went, so I don't know what the total cost was, but I didn't take out a loan for it. Sometimes I had to put my classes on credit card and racket up a couple grand during a semester as a result of books and classes. (so maybe $6,000 total?)

My Bachelors in Software Engineering from a very reputable university in Florida cost me about $32,000 total. It was a two-year degree program, and since I got straight-As, I was eligeble for the Florida higher-learning credit thing which basically paid for 1 class every 4 classes that I took. I paid for the rest, but had to sometimes put it on the credit card, or borrow from dad (yup...)

My Masters degree that I'm getting right now (almost done), is also regionally accredited, though less well known, and the total cost for that is just a hair over $20,000.

So, my total cost for schooling thus far has been just shy of $60,000 from highschool to Masters degree. Since I worked the entire time while getting those degrees, it's basically all paid off. I only have last semester's classes on the credit card, but as soon as my income tax check comes in, it's paid off.

I don't want to post my salary, but it's more per year than the total cost of all my education.

But... it depends. Some of these really big state schools don't always provide the cost-benefit... especially if you pick a stupid degree that no one wants.

Thanks, thats why I didnt get too personal for info. Sounds like it is working out ok for you. Yours isnt as high as a lot I know of. And not all can work full time and go to school.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 02-23-2013).]