Boonie (and possibly TK) are what I'd call "radical neutrals".
Sometimes I bury my head to avoid the bullshit. Even you keep a distance John and only pop in to imply support, but that door is always kept open.
It's impossible to draw any conclusions from this OT hysteria. There is no indication that the WH said "let them die", "we hope they die", or "them dying will be good for us." I will wait for all of the facts and then crucify where needed, not when wanted.
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09:42 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by TK: There is no indication that the WH said "let them die", "we hope they die", or "them dying will be good for us." I will wait for all of the facts and then crucify where needed, not when wanted.
What makes you think you will ever get the facts on this? They are covering this up BIGTIME, with the power of the White House behind it.
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10:22 AM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by Boondawg: People here continue to try to group me in ways that supports their illusions about me, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of who I am. I am neither neutral or radical.
But that *is* the issue. I call you "neutral" because you I don't see you take a stand on anything.
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10:23 AM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 10003 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
I call you "neutral" because you I don't see you take a stand on anything.
That's because you only see what you want to see in support of what you want to believe. Even in this very thread you miss me quite obviously taking a stand.
I think what you really mean is, I won't say what you want me to say when you want me to say it in the way you want it to be said. I cannot support that illusion of what you think I am.
Don't you know how much easier it would be for me to be just like you and the majority here? To be a part of, to agree, to profess the words & beliefs? But I cannot do that.
Still, in your eyes, I don't "stand".
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 10-30-2012).]
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10:45 AM
spark1 Member
Posts: 11159 From: Benton County, OR Registered: Dec 2002
That's because you only see what you want to see in support of what you want to believe. Even in this very thread you miss me quite obviously taking a stand.
Would you kindly post a link to the post with your historical stand? I'd like to see the original context in all it' glory. I wouldn't want to guess which words of yours were you taking a stand, so if you'd be so kind as to point it out for me, that'd be great.
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11:35 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
I listened to Senator McCain make similar statements live on the radio. I personally believe this is a combination of both incompetence and a cover-up. The first cause was gross incompetence. The cover-up followed.
The motives are a little more difficult to pin down but I really don't care what the motives are at this point. I don't concern myself with motives while the crime is still in process.
What does McCain's opinion on what Obama "might" be doing or done have to do with anything? He provides nothing that gets us closer to the facts. He doesn't know what happened but he certainly knows it's bad. Thanks for the input John.
I agree, if all of the speculation and intentional accusations to make certainly people look bad are true, yeah, that's bad. All kinds of things are bad if they are true. Let's keep suggesting possible bad things.
No wait, let's wait for all of the facts to come out and see if we can draw a valid conclusion.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 10-30-2012).]
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01:33 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I didn't say I made a historical stand. That is your preconcieved notion.
Which proves the point that the stand is in the eye of the beholder. I cannot see it for you. And you can't find what you won't see.
Sorry, but the problem is yours.
You said you "quite obviously" took a stand "in this very thread." If it happened, it's history. I asked you to point it out to avoid using my own perception to determine it, lest I misinterpret what you meant, and you refuse.
And you think the problem is mine? I see there are plenty of preconceived notions to go around.
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01:37 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
If the story about the surveillance drones being on duty over Libya at the time, this goes way beyond incompetence IMHO.
It constitutes dereliction of duty. People get court marshalled for dereliction. People get fired for dereliction.
My point? Fire him
Arn
If what you say is true, then yup. I support The Rule Of Law.
It is going to come down to "Procedure’s & The Decision-Making Process". And how those are implemented in these kinds of situations. I'm sure we don't know all the "threads" that had to be considered at the time.
And for the record, I don't trust The Government, The White House, Congress, etc. etc. to do the right thing or tell the whole truth. They have proven that time & time again.
But I also don't take speculation as truth.
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01:39 PM
PFF
System Bot
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
That can also be said for Pearl Harbor, 9-11, etc. etc. etc.. It's REAL easy to coulda' shoulda' woulda' AFTER the fact.
Many here should try being in the real hotseat just once, with a hundred choices and a million lives with a million consequences at stake. It's a little tougher then the ease with which many armchair he-men here declare "all the right moves".
It's easy to have opinions on something one will never face.
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01:47 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
No wait, let's wait for all of the facts to come out and see if we can draw a valid conclusion.
Who's version of the facts are you waiting for? Who's version will you believe? There's a lot of waddling and quacking going on. I think there's a duck close by.
Jonathan
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01:47 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
It's easy to have opinions on something one will never face.
I was in Desert Storm with the First Infantry Division. I spent the whole time there just behind the enemy lines. We could see the flares that the Iraqis would shoot over their own positions to keep their own people from running away. I really didn't do that much but I did my part. Guys I knew had to clear all sorts of holes, buildings, and bunkers. They were told to go in and they did it. They were not the police. They didn't wait for a robotic camera on tracks to inspect these places first to make sure it was safe to go in. THEY were the real time intellegence. That is how the military works on the ground. Someone points and someone goes. There are no 7 hours of time to reflect on the situation. The military also doesn't wait for daylight or fair weather. It GOES!! I know how sick I would feel if I were within that radius of reaction and never got the order to go help. Sure, I would have been scared as hell but the feeling of helplessness that comes from not even getting the chance to try to save my dying countrymen would be much worse. I'm sure there are a lot of service men and women over there that feel like they've been kicked in the gut over this mess.
Jonathan
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02:00 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Who's version of the facts are you waiting for? Who's version will you believe? There's a lot of waddling and quacking going on. I think there's a duck close by.
Jonathan
When the people that were there and those that were behind the scenes and those that made the calls and know the calls start talking and writing books about it. In a few years, we will probably have about all we are ever going to know about it. Then you take ALL those accounts, add your own sense of logic about how things work, and then come to your conclusion.
I'm betting we know more today about the desisions of World War II, then we did the day/week/month/year after the fact......
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 10-30-2012).]
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02:02 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
I was in Desert Storm with the First Infantry Division. I spent the whole time there just behind the enemy lines. We could see the flares that the Iraqis would shoot over their own positions to keep their own people from running away. I really didn't do that much but I did my part. Guys I knew had to clear all sorts of holes, buildings, and bunkers. They were told to go in and they did it. They were not the police. They didn't wait for a robotic camera on tracks to inspect these places first to make sure it was safe to go in. THEY were the real time intellegence. That is how the military works on the ground. Someone points and someone goes. There are no 7 hours of time to reflect on the situation. The military also doesn't wait for daylight or fair weather. It GOES!! I know how sick I would feel if I were within that radius of reaction and never got the order to go help. Sure, I would have been scared as hell but the feeling of helplessness that comes from not even getting the chance to try to save my dying countrymen would be much worse. I'm sure there are a lot of service men and women over there that feel like they've been kicked in the gut over this mess.
Jonathan
Honest & well said. Thank you.
I have heard a major complaint with those on the ground in Viet Nam was having their hands tied by those desision makers NOT on the ground with "eyes-on" the reality of the situation. The guy on the ground only contimplates living or dieing, while the office commanders contimplate everything (the bigger picture?) BUT that.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 10-30-2012).]
Who's version of the facts are you waiting for? Who's version will you believe? There's a lot of waddling and quacking going on. I think there's a duck close by.
Jonathan
There is still a lot of churn. Another month or two. Seriously. Now I know most here want the most evil and vile speculation to be true so Obama is not re-elected but if we are interested in the facts, then I think we are still a couple of month away for the BS to drop out leaving whatever level of truth we will get.
If you are impatient, then by all means, let this help you decide who to vote for.
Edit: I have no doubt your experience on the ground is valid. I won't even pretend to know anything in this area. I don't and never will.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 10-30-2012).]
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02:21 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
We had our hands tied in VN too. We were always given a list of DO NOT ATTACK THIS during preflight on every mission. Trouble with that was the enemy knew to be in those places so they were protected. We knew that so we bombed it anyway, disregarding the order not to almost every day. I released bombs many times myself due to accident or malfunction . Not guessing the facts. The final decision rests with the guy with his finger on the trigger. I did the fact. If you ever saw Flight of the Intruder, that was closer than fact most of the time than the BS the government let out.
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02:30 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
There is still a lot of churn. Another month or two. Seriously.
In your mind, is there still a lot of churn that the Obama administration lied to the public when for 2 weeks they had a coordinated message from MULTIPLE people they sent out, that this was a random riot in reaction to an inflammatory video?
Or have you seen enough to know that they were out there blatantly lying about it, and that they knew it was a coordinated attack?
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03:02 PM
PFF
System Bot
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 10003 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
What does McCain's opinion on what Obama "might" be doing or done have to do with anything? He provides nothing that gets us closer to the facts. He doesn't know what happened but he certainly knows it's bad. Thanks for the input John.
I agree, if all of the speculation and intentional accusations to make certainly people look bad are true, yeah, that's bad. All kinds of things are bad if they are true. Let's keep suggesting possible bad things.
No wait, let's wait for all of the facts to come out and see if we can draw a valid conclusion.
We should wait for more facts to come out before coming to a conclusion just like how the Obama administration waited for all the facts before blaming the attack on a Youtube video.
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03:02 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 10003 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
There are no words that excuse the killing of innocents. There is no video that justifies an attack on an embassy. There is no slander that provides an excuse for people to burn a restaurant in Lebanon, or destroy a school in Tunis, or cause death and destruction in Pakistan.
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03:10 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
When the people that were there and those that were behind the scenes and those that made the calls and know the calls start talking and writing books about it.
I'm betting we know more today about the desisions of World War II, then we did the day/week/month/year after the fact......
So...you want to wait for those accused of a cover-up of a major screw-up to come clean? It has been my experience that when someone screws up, they admit it pretty quickly or never. That's why we have trials. Evidence is presented and impartial people have to decide who's telling the truth. Right now, with the evidence that has been presented, someone is guilty. We don't need any MORE evidence to suggest that. What we need now are the names of the players OR the EXTRORDINARY evidence that clears them.
As for WWII, how much of this "new" information do we know because of de-classified information and personal stories being recorded. How much do we know because someone "spilled the beans" about a cover-up? And let's be clear, there is a difference between classified information and information that has been covered up.
Jonathan
[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 10-30-2012).]
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04:04 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
So...you want to wait for those accused of a cover-up of a major screw-up to come clean? It has been my experience that when someone screws up, they admit it pretty quickly or never. That's why we have trials. Evidence is presented and impartial people have to decide who's telling the truth. Right now, with the evidence that has been presented, someone is guilty. We don't need any MORE evidence to suggest that. What we need now are the names of the players OR the EXTRORDINARY evidence that clears them.
Jonathan
Oh no, I am all for a trial, if the investigation warrants charges. But it is not that simplistic.
All I can really say about that part is watch & see. Things will come out about the incedent that we don't know now. Things that will explain "the fugg-up".
Originally posted by Doug85GT: We should wait for more facts to come out before coming to a conclusion just like how the Obama administration waited for all the facts before blaming the attack on a Youtube video.
I am not telling you to do anything. As I said, the WH/Dems are spewing BS, the press is spewing BS, the GOP and TP are spewing BS and the public is spewing BS. In between is some truth.
I didn't say the WH did nothing wrong. The intelligence community and the WH f-ed this up royal. But the last thing I am going to do is take my cues from an internet forum or websites that give indicting titles to their articles only to use an excessive number of ifs. If this, if that. Yeah. If.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 10-30-2012).]
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04:18 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
The intelligence community and the WH f-ed this up royal.
We now know OBAMA and his administration (White House is somewhat of a deflection. I get it, but it de-humanizes it. It was Obama and his people) messed it up royally.
That is a known.
We also KNOW that Obama had the administration openly lie to the press and the world.
And you and I don't get the luxury of waiting for the details BEFORE the election.
But those "big if's" can have significance in deciding who should be president for some people.
Is one (huge) screw up enough to not make you vote for a guy. (my answer personally would be no).
Is lying to the public enough?
Then we go to the if's:
if they did it to try to cover up their failure in foreign POLICY making. Is THAT enough?
I'm not even going to go into if's such as they intentionally didn't send help.
But there are a lot of people that likely WOULD want that as part of their decision making process. And the vote is coming up quickly.
You don't think the American public deserves to know these answers BEFORE the election? When the election will dramatically alter the direction of the country for the next FOUR years?
And that includes if it makes the Obama administration look BETTER than they could look.
Interesting.
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04:38 PM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
We had our hands tied in VN too. We were always given a list of DO NOT ATTACK THIS during preflight on every mission. Trouble with that was the enemy knew to be in those places so they were protected. We knew that so we bombed it anyway, disregarding the order not to almost every day. I released bombs many times myself due to accident or malfunction . Not guessing the facts. The final decision rests with the guy with his finger on the trigger. I did the fact. If you ever saw Flight of the Intruder, that was closer than fact most of the time than the BS the government let out.
Got your back on that one Roger ! Me being on a Carrier back then, knowing quite a few of the pilots supports exactly what you stated above.
Here we are 52 years after the US engaged Vietnam, and there is still a lot unknown about our Government Cover-Ups, as well as Military Cover-Ups. We've only touched the tip of the iceberg on what it truthful about what happened over there. One thing we all know for certain is that one hell of a lot of good people died over there.
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04:50 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by California Kid: Here we are 52 years after the US engaged Vietnam, and there is still a lot unknown about our Government Cover-Ups, as well as Military Cover-Ups. We've only touched the tip of the iceberg on what it truthful about what happened over there. One thing we all know for certain is that one hell of a lot of good people died over there.
Amen, brother.
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05:09 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
. Not guessing the facts. The final decision rests with the guy with his finger on the trigger. I did the fact. If you ever saw Flight of the Intruder, that was closer than fact most of the time than the BS the government let out.
