quote Originally posted by yellowstone: What has my opinion got to do with this? But to answer your question, I'm not eligible for citizenship yet. And no, if I was a US citizen, I would not vote Republican.

Do you sometimes get the feeling from some here that being from another country automatically makes your opinion null & void on any U.S. related subject, where that belief is then used in an attempt to "shut you down" or discredit your opinion in the current conversation (on a website actually FROM a foreign country)?

I want you to know that not all of us feel that way or have to resort to that kind of thing to defend a point.
I actually value opinions from outside of the machine as much as I do from the inside.
Without the outside view, the inside could be lying to you, and you'd never know it.

Some of the information I have gleened from you over the years has caused me to dig deeper and learn more about it.
That makes you a valuable asset here to me.
Thanx.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Anyone using a personal trainer and still not providing health care for her/hid kids is IMO, not worthy to be called a parent. Please inform her or direct her to this thread, I've got a few things I'd like to talk to her about. No, it won't be a nice discussion. Talk about someone with her priorities screwed up. While I support folk's right to not be forced to buy something they don't want, some folks simply don't deserve to be called Mom or Dad. That being said, personal responsibility and responsibility for the children we bring into this world is what's lacking in this country and apparently in every socialized country on this planet. We humans as a species once understood what failure to plan meant. Obviously, this "lady" needs a little failure in her life to realize what her priorities should be, then again, I'll bet she has a plan.. I'd hate to see her kids pay the price for her stupidity but, maybe that's what it's going to take for her to get her "stuff" together. Unfortunately, in our current system, everyone else gets to pay for her lack of parental and personal responisbiliities while we get to pay for it. I think I'd find another client to fill that spot on the schedule, she obviously doesn't care enough about her kids to get her priorities right. Then again, it appears others are benefiting from the current system as well. After all, if she wasn't depending on us paying for her and her kids health care, she might not be able to afford a personal trainer. I would greatly appreciate it if you could reduce her hourly rate so that she can at least pay a little of her own health care costs. Surely, that's not too much to ask or, would you rather we pay for that also?

Wait a second who knows why she doesn't have insurance? I thought that was the whole "freedom" argument was that an individual could choose NOT to have insurance for whatever reason they wanted??

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Now you have me worried about myself! No health insurance... and I'm an engineer!

And not a very smart one. j/k
You should have at least some type of insurance because like I said all it takes is one accident. And you can be walking down the street and run over, or walking and have a heart attack, or swimming on at the beach and attacked by a shark.
Just saying, you can be as healthy as a moose and still things happen. And the cost of health care in this country is going through the roof.
When you are young you think you are invincible, one of my grandsons is into that extreme sports stuff. A couple of years ago he broke his wrist; he lived in Taxachussettes so he had insurance. Luckily for him and my daughter because she ran a daycare and had no insurance for themselves.
Steve


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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 07-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by mrfiero: Again, for me medical insurance is something I don't want or need, but if you feel it is necessary then by all means buy it. I'm only saying I shouldn't be forced to buy it to subsidize someone elses poor health choices or bad genes or bad luck. If I get sick or fall ill I will seek out medical help and write a check to pay for it (as I have done in the past).

Humans are demonstrably bad a judging risks, especially low-probability events. See optimism bias.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: And not a very smart one. j/k You should have at least some type of insurance because like I said all it takes is one accident. And you can be walking down the street and run over, or walking and have a heart attack, or swimming on at the beach and attacked by a shark. Just saying, you can be as healthy as a moose and still things happen. And the cost of health care in this country is going through the roof. When you are young you think you are invincible, one of my grandsons is into that extreme sports stuff. A couple of years ago he broke his wrist; he lived in Taxachussettes so he had insurance. Luckily for him and my daughter because she ran a daycare and had no insurance for themselves. Steve

I understand all of that, Steve. I'm taking my chances, and saving money while doing so.

I haven't been sick in years. I can play it safe and spend money buying myself insurance, but until I'm older I'll likely just be wasting money.

I don't think I'm invincible. Things happen. I'm just saying the odds are in my favor here. When I'm older I will get insurance. Right now, I'm 21, and I'm literally completely on my own, as I'm sure you were at this age. I don't want to waste the money getting insurance for myself when I have school to pay for and a job that is currently only seasonal. I have the money to do it, but I don't want to.

quote Originally posted by mrfiero: Again, for me medical insurance is something I don't want or need, but if you feel it is necessary then by all means buy it. I'm only saying I shouldn't be forced to buy it to subsidize someone elses poor health choices or bad genes or bad luck. If I get sick or fall ill I will seek out medical help and write a check to pay for it (as I have done in the past).

Just curious, what happens the day you need services that exceed the balance of your checkbook? Citing the gallstone example that Yellowstone gave, a condition that more than likely had no "genetic predisposition", with a cost of $72,000. Do you have that kind of cash laying around? Many of the health problems today are not hereditary, but environmental as well. Your lifestyle, where you live, what you do, all play a role in your health. Just because grandpa didn't die from it doesn't mean that you wont.

You say you are willing to take the risk, but what will you do if you happen to lose your bet? Will you lay down and die? Or will you make an attempt to save yourself. Will you accept medical treatment that you can't afford? Will you default on the payment? Will you go bankrupt trying to pay? When you accept treatment you can't afford, or go bankrupt in the process, who do you think picks up your slack? The other guy, the one who has insurance. His costs rise from your lack of participation in the plan. We don't have to like it, but that is the way capitalism works. Healthcare is BIG Business, and they are in it to make money.

quote Originally posted by KidO: Just curious, what happens the day you need services that exceed the balance of your checkbook? Citing the gallstone example that Yellowstone gave, a condition that more than likely had no "genetic predisposition", with a cost of $72,000. Do you have that kind of cash laying around? Many of the health problems today are not hereditary, but environmental as well. Your lifestyle, where you live, what you do, all play a role in your health. Just because grandpa didn't die from it doesn't mean that you wont. You say you are willing to take the risk, but what will you do if you happen to lose your bet? Will you lay down and die? Or will you make an attempt to save yourself. Will you accept medical treatment that you can't afford? Will you default on the payment? Will you go bankrupt trying to pay? When you accept treatment you can't afford, or go bankrupt in the process, who do you think picks up your slack? The other guy, the one who has insurance. His costs rise from your lack of participation in the plan. We don't have to like it, but that is the way capitalism works. Healthcare is BIG Business, and they are in it to make money.

Well said.
I faced the same questions.

quote Originally posted by KidO: Just curious, what happens the day you need services that exceed the balance of your checkbook?

The hospital will bill you. Count on it.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: The hospital will bill you. Count on it.

I am well aware that the hospital will send the bill, but what happens when you can't pay it? More than half (recent Harvard study says 62%) of all bankruptcies in the U.S. list medical expenses as the reason. Who pays when you default? Everyone else.

quote Originally posted by Fformula88: I'd love a yard full of big boy toys! Instead, I an paying about $6000 out of pocket a year to make sure my family has health insurance. What I do not like with the current system (pre-obamacare) is what mrfiero eludes to. The fact that people go without coverage, have an emergency (or even just a common illness), and end up in the ER. Since nobody is turned away from the ER, they receive extremely expensive treatment. Then, due to lack of ability to pay, the Hospital has to pass the cost onto the paying (insured) customers. This just raises the overall rates, and due to that increase, health insurance companies have to raise their premiums on those who are insured. This to me is one of the biggest problems in the system. It is one of the things obamacare is trying to fix, by compelling people into carrying coverage. I am not sure that is the best way around it, but however the best way is, I think it would be nice if I could buy health insurance without ending up subsidizing ER visits by those who need care and cannot or will not buy insurance for themselves.

Don't you see that this isn't a change? People are still paying for other people's care? Obamacare will pay for it!! Where does Obamacare get its money? From taxpayers! Either way, we are still paying for others. At least for right now, the people paying for the uninsured cases are the other people using the service - other people using the same doctor and hospital. It's like not everyone owns a car but gas prices are high so why don't we spread the cost over the entire population? Everyone needs transportation at some point!

As for Romney being the father of Mass's plan, at least he understands that it was a state plan only. Don't like the plan? You're free to move to a different state. The freedom to opt out is lost on Obamacare.

Jonathan

quote Originally posted by newf: Wait a second who knows why she doesn't have insurance? I thought that was the whole "freedom" argument was that an individual could choose NOT to have insurance for whatever reason they wanted??

OH, she can make that decision and if was up to me, I'd hold her accountable to it when she comes to the ER wanting medical care. Since she decided she didn't need it, she shouldn't get it.

As some other's have pointed out, having all the cool toys, hot rides and fancy clothes is real cool but, when she needs medical attention, as far as I'm concerned, she's on her own. I deplore people that don't take their reposnisbility toward their offspring seriously. They don't deserve kids.

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Ron
We learn good judgement by exercising bad judgement. Such is the human condition, as sad as that sounds.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 07-02-2012).]

you find individual examples of just about anything.
but overall - those who are "dying" for healthcare coverage - are just that.

seems many are crying that same tired song, as back in the day when the ******* were buying Mercedes & Fur coats with food stamps.
BS. and the illegals getting all kinds of free stuff. and on & on about how "they" are having a big 'ole party, and you poor saps get the bill.
it is BS. yes - I agree 100% there is abuse, but if it was one big 'ole party - why dont people just jump right in? because it aint.
Having no healthcare coverage is a scary place to be. especially when dealing with kids.

I still beleive this whole thing would be ALOT clearer if the scam called insurance didnt exist in the first place. if everyone actually paid for their health directly.....

quote Originally posted by blackrams: OH, she can make that decision and if was up to me, I'd hold her accountable to it when she comes to the ER wanting medical care. Since she decided she didn't need it, she shouldn't get it. As some other's have pointed out, having all the cool toys, hot rides and fancy clothes is real cool but, when she needs medical attention, as far as I'm concerned, she's on her own. I deplore people that don't take their reposnisbility toward their offspring seriously. They don't deserve kids.

But of course we don't know her situation. She COULD be deciding to pay willingly IF she needs healthcare like others have stated they do, correct? Rolling the dice that they won't get sick and only paying if in fact they do.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: They don't deserve kids.

Yet they have them. Now you want to punish the children for the idiots they have as parents? Would you really turn away a seriously sick child because the idiot parent chose the blow the money on luxury items instead of getting health insurance? Would you do that?

PS: And I agree that many people shouldn't be allowed to have children. I just haven't figured out how to keep them from it...

[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 07-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Oh ya let’s get the idiot in who put Obama care in MA long before the boogie Woogie boy was a fart in the wind. His version was paid for with an increase in sales tax and other taxes. You need to learn just a little bit more about the other idiot running for president.

Point 1:

ObamaCare = 2700 pages
Romneycare = 79 pages

Anyone who has even sat in a math class can figure out that these are not the same

Point 2:

Romneycare has no Mandate

Point 3:

Romney will have to work with the US Congress to get health care reform passed and they will not accept a replica of his Mass. Solution.

No comparison.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Point 1: ObamaCare = 2700 pages Romneycare = 79 pages Anyone who has even sat in a math class can figure out that these are not the same Point 2: Po Romneycare has no Mandate Point 3: Romney will have to work with the US Congress to get health care reform passed and they will not accept a replica of his Mass. Solution. No comparison.

Point 4:

Romneycare is a state program.
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Point 2: Romneycare has no Mandate

Don't know if accurate but I found this info:

quote The enacted statute, Chapter 58 of the Acts of 2006, established a system to require individuals, with a few exceptions, to obtain health insurance.[23] Chapter 58 has several key provisions: the creation of the Health Connector; the establishment of the subsidized Commonwealth Care Health Insurance Program; the employer Fair Share Contribution and Free Rider Surcharge; and a requirement that each individual must show evidence of coverage on their income tax return or face a tax penalty, unless coverage was deemed unaffordable by the Health Connector.[23] The statute also expands MassHealth (Medicaid and SCHIP) coverage for children of low income parents and restores MassHealth benefits like dental care and eyeglasses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik..._care_reform

Also:

quote The Massachusetts health care insurance reform law, St. 2006, c.58,[1][2] enacted in 2006, mandates that nearly every resident of Massachusetts obtain a state-government-regulated minimum level of healthcare insurance coverage and provides free health care insurance for residents earning less than 150% of the federal poverty level (FPL).

and

quote The reform legislation also included tax penalties on residents for failing to obtain an insurance plan and tax penalties on employers for failing to offer an insurance plan to employees. In 2007 Massachusetts tax filers who failed to enroll in a health insurance plan which was deemed affordable for them lost the $219 personal exemption on their income tax. Beginning in 2008, the penalty became pegged to 50% of the lowest monthly premium for insurance available from the Connector Authority.

[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 07-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by KidO: Just curious, what happens the day you need services that exceed the balance of your checkbook?

I cross that bridge if/when it happens. It's not a hard concept really.......if I get sick I pay a doctor to help me out. If I'm not sick I do not want to pay anyone anything. I'll keep that money in my pocket thank-you very much.

quote You say you are willing to take the risk, but what will you do if you happen to lose your bet? Will you lay down and die? Or will you make an attempt to save yourself. Will you accept medical treatment that you can't afford? Will you default on the payment? Will you go bankrupt trying to pay? When you accept treatment you can't afford, or go bankrupt in the process, who do you think picks up your slack? The other guy, the one who has insurance. His costs rise from your lack of participation in the plan. We don't have to like it, but that is the way capitalism works. Healthcare is BIG Business, and they are in it to make money.

How is my paying cash for my doctor bills in any way affecting what someone else pays for their insurance? You are making a lot of assumptions......perhaps equal & opposite of my assumptions of not ever getting sick. Instead you are assuming I *will* get sick & need hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical expenses that I obviously can't afford and will then declare bankruptcy and force everyone else to pay it for me. HUGE assumptions.

Besides, you do reaalize that if Obamacare sticks around then people can pay the fine/tax to not have coverage, but then buy it when they get sick. One of the big provisions in this plan is that coverage cannot be denied due to pre-existing conditions. Therefore if an insurance plan costs me $4000/year and the "tax" for not having one is $500/year I can save $3500/year until I get cancerous gallstones or my little toe falls off. Since that would be a pre-existing condition I can purchase a new health insurance policy and start using it to treat my problems. How is that any better than the shmucks who go to the ER right now and "dine & dash", so to speak?

quote Originally posted by mrfiero: Heh......Steve will see me crossing the street and will run me over to prove his point! lol

hahahahhaa

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: Yet they have them. Now you want to punish the children for the idiots they have as parents? Would you really turn away a seriously sick child because the idiot parent chose the blow the money on luxury items instead of getting health insurance? Would you do that? PS: And I agree that many people shouldn't be allowed to have children. I just haven't figured out how to keep them from it...

To a certain extent, yes that child would leave the ER or the parent could forfeit parental rights to the child, their decision. Or, you're more than welcome to donte to their cause if you wish, I simply don't think they have a right to free heathcare at anyone's expense. Someone, somewhere willl take care of that child even if it's "parents" won't. Yeah, harsh but, I stand by that decision. I provided for my kids, I assume (if you have any) you do the same.

I know too many folks that work the system and get healthcare, food stamps, welfare, ect....... that should and could be holding down a full time job. Way too many entitlement programs and most of those are abused. Yep, it's gonna take some nut cutt'n for those not pulling their own weight or, we're all gonna go down. Unfortunately, it takes extreme examples to get people to wake up. It's not other people's money, it's our money, our jobs and our kid's futures. Wise up.

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Ron
We learn good judgement by exercising bad judgement. Such is the human condition, as sad as that sounds.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 07-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: quote The enacted statute, Chapter 58 of the Acts of 2006, established a system to require individuals, with a few exceptions, to obtain health insurance.[23] Chapter 58 has several key provisions: the creation of the Health Connector; the establishment of the subsidized Commonwealth Care Health Insurance Program; the employer Fair Share Contribution and Free Rider Surcharge; and a requirement that each individual must show evidence of coverage on their income tax return or face a tax penalty, unless coverage was deemed unaffordable by the Health Connector.[23] The statute also expands MassHealth (Medicaid and SCHIP) coverage for children of low income parents and restores MassHealth benefits like dental care and eyeglasses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik..._care_reform

One of those exceptions is that if you do not ask for health care you do not need to pay for it. There is precident in this with government programs, for example, some citizens have fought City Hall and won cases opting out of trash pick-up. They claim that they recycle everything so they do not have to pay a trash pick up tax. They won. This is why the Government lost the case of the Consumer clause. Ropmney knew this when Romney care was enacted, Obama just kinda forgot it. or didn't care that is was a violation of the law.

Anyway, it should also be pointed out that the majority of the citizens of Mass wanted this bill and the 85% Democratic Majority in the state Assembly and Senate made sure it would pass. The fact that people call it "Romneycare" is a bit ironic since Romney has never been proud of this legislation and signed it into law only because it was veto proof and wanted by the state.

quote Originally posted by mrfiero: How is my paying cash for my doctor bills in any way affecting what someone else pays for their insurance? You are making a lot of assumptions......perhaps equal & opposite of my assumptions of not ever getting sick. Instead you are assuming I *will* get sick & need hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical expenses that I obviously can't afford and will then declare bankruptcy and force everyone else to pay it for me. HUGE assumptions. Besides, you do reaalize that if Obamacare sticks around then people can pay the fine/tax to not have coverage, but then buy it when they get sick. One of the big provisions in this plan is that coverage cannot be denied due to pre-existing conditions. Therefore if an insurance plan costs me $4000/year and the "tax" for not having one is $500/year I can save $3500/year until I get cancerous gallstones or my little toe falls off. Since that would be a pre-existing condition I can purchase a new health insurance policy and start using it to treat my problems. How is that any better than the shmucks who go to the ER right now and "dine & dash", so to speak?

I really have no problem with you paying your own way, and if you can, great. I made no assumption, I simply created a "what if" scenario that you chose to dodge and duck araound. I hope the hell your plan works, and you can make it through life without illness, but accidents and the unexpected happen.

The pre-existing condition clause does create the loophole that you point out. It creates the potential for a whole new type of welfare so to speak. People who pay the tax until they "need insurance", which they can buy and use until they don't need it anymore. Once again, this puts the burden on those who do pay into the insurance pool to provide coverage for those who don't. Hopefully, not too many "smucks" start to use this plan that you have laid out. If it does become problematic, it will need to be fixed. It is no different than those that "dine & dash" as you put it.

Just like auto insurance and life insurance, I pay for health insurance with the hope that I don't need it. If some day I do, I'm glad that it is there.

[This message has been edited by KidO (edited 07-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: We have had Direct TV since we moved here to Maine the cost has never been $70 a month, until we started adding pay channels. http://www.directstartv.com...directv_pricing.html Starts at $30 a month now and if I remember right when we first got it, it was only $20 a month.

Steve, when you quoted me, you conveniently left this crucial part out:

quote I know that at the time, competition wasn't as great as it is now (in South Florida at least), and DirecTV was the only option you could have.

When there is no competition (at the time, only Jones Inter-cable), this is what DirecTV cost, and that's what we paid as well without HBO or any of the other stuff.

By the time I left Florida, DirecTV was only $29 a month.


...unless you just breezed through what I said and missed that part?

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: When there is no competition (at the time, only Jones Inter-cable), this is what DirecTV cost, and that's what we paid as well without HBO or any of the other stuff. By the time I left Florida, DirecTV was only $29 a month. ...unless you just breezed through what I said and missed that part?

$70 bucks is more than enough to pay for a DECENT preventive care health insurance policy for them.

Never has $70 a month been enough to pay for a DECENT health care policy and I have been working for 40 years and never been able to get health care for that little. Not unless it was your share of the monthly from some company you were working for.

Steve

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: $70 bucks is more than enough to pay for a DECENT preventive care health insurance policy for them. Never has $70 a month been enough to pay for a DECENT health care policy and I have been working for 40 years and never been able to get health care for that little. Not unless it was your share of the monthly from some company you were working for. Steve

Aetna POS - Network Option Value 1 - $71
http://www.ehealthinsurance...rl=/ifp/best-sellers

United Health Saver One - $75
http://www.ehealthinsurance...ckUrl=/ifp/all-plans

United Health One - Select Saver $81
http://www.ehealthinsurance...ckUrl=/ifp/all-plans

Go Health - $70
http://www.gohealthinsurance.com

quote Originally posted by KidO: I really have no problem with you paying your own way, and if you can, great. I made no assumption, I simply created a "what if" scenario that you chose to dodge and duck araound. I hope the hell your plan works, and you can make it through life without illness, but accidents and the unexpected happen.

Hmmmm.....I wasn't aware that I dodged or ducked anything, but I will address the only post of yours directed towards me later. I understand that unexpected things can and do happen, but I am willing to accept that risk and will pay for it if & when that time comes. I don't think I am invincible, but I do feel that I will spend less at the end of the day by not having insurance and paying for any issues as they happen. Again, I am willing to take that risk and it is my right to do so.

quote The pre-existing condition clause does create the loophole that you point out. It creates the potential for a whole new type of welfare so to speak. People who pay the tax until they "need insurance", which they can buy and use until they don't need it anymore. Once again, this puts the burden on those who do pay into the insurance pool to provide coverage for those who don't. Hopefully, not too many "smucks" start to use this plan that you have laid out. If it does become problematic, it will need to be fixed. It is no different than those that "dine & dash" as you put it.

This is a HUGE loophole and is what kills this plan. There are plenty of things in Obamacare that are bad, but this provision is the killer. I believe abuse by these "schmucks" (my word) will be rampant. If the powers that be weren't in such a rush to force this bill through maybe things like this would have been figured out and reworded/reworked. This will bankrupt us as a nation.

quote Just like auto insurance and life insurance, I pay for health insurance with the hope that I don't need it. If some day I do, I'm glad that it is there.

I have no issue with auto insurance.....I drive a car and carry it myself. The difference is you only need auto insurance if you own & drive a car. We are being forced to buy health insurance merely for existing. Because I breathe air I must pay into the system, regardless if I use it or not.....no if and's or but's. THAT is the problem I have with this bill/law.

Now for the only post you made towards me that I evidently ducked & dodged:

quote Just curious, what happens the day you need services that exceed the balance of your checkbook? Citing the gallstone example that Yellowstone gave, a condition that more than likely had no "genetic predisposition", with a cost of $72,000. Do you have that kind of cash laying around? Many of the health problems today are not hereditary, but environmental as well. Your lifestyle, where you live, what you do, all play a role in your health. Just because grandpa didn't die from it doesn't mean that you wont.

If that day ever comes I will figure it out. I do not dwell on things that have not happened and that I don't believe will happen. Don't mistake that for thinking I don't plan on the future, because I do. I am only saying I don't spend my waking hours thinking of the ways I will fall ill and go broke paying the doctor off. It's silly. I also understand that not all maladies are hereditary, but let's be honest......most things are. There is no history of cancer, diabetes, gallstones, ulcers, spastic colon, or flat feet in my family (dating back to the late 1700's). Arthritis and bad teeth do run in my family.....I am dealing with both (on my own.....amazing!). I have spent about $2500 at the dentist this past year getting old fillings replaced and repairing some new issues too. The arthritis,well....there's not a whole lot I can do about that. It doesn't bother me too much, but I know it will when I am in my 60's. I suppose I have a higher risk of skin cancer due to living in Colorado, but I've been here almost 30 years and haven't noticed anything. I don't lay out sunbathing and I try to take care when I'm outside. Anyway, I will concede the fact that not all illness is hereditary and that there is a chance something new can pop up that my ancestors never had. I don't believe I will arbitrarily get a cancer or disease that nobody else in my family had, but I accept that that is a possibility.

quote You say you are willing to take the risk, but what will you do if you happen to lose your bet? Will you lay down and die? Or will you make an attempt to save yourself. Will you accept medical treatment that you can't afford? Will you default on the payment? Will you go bankrupt trying to pay? When you accept treatment you can't afford, or go bankrupt in the process, who do you think picks up your slack? The other guy, the one who has insurance. His costs rise from your lack of participation in the plan. We don't have to like it, but that is the way capitalism works. Healthcare is BIG Business, and they are in it to make money.

If I lose my bet I die. I hurt nobosy but myself......why is that anyone's business? I won't just roll over and die.....I will do what I can to "save myself". However, if I am a vegetable hooked up to a machine I want the plug pulled. That is no way to live, but if it is a completely curable whatever then sure.....I want to be healed and will pay whatever it costs to get better. Will I default or go bankrupt? I don't believe so, but you are making those assumptions again. You are assuming I will fall gravely ill and run up a huge bill then walk away from my responsibilities. If I pay my bill outside of an insurance plan then I am neither helping nor hurting someone else. It is not my responsibility to pay for someone who is sick when I am not by belonging to a pool of payers (as in a health insurance scheme).

What about the person who pays $5000/year for a policy for 15 years (total of $75,000) and then is diagnosed with some rare disease that costs $1.2 million to treat? What if someone needs $1 million a year in treatment just to live, but will never contribute anything to society (unable to ever hold a job). Suppose it was a "pre-existing" condition and due to his income level only has to pay $100/month under Obamacare.....is he better or worse than someone who does not have insurance and runs up a $10,000 ER bill and never pays it? Why or why not?


I'm not sure how you tie in my lack of wanting healthcare to capitalism. Are you suggesting that capitalism is a mechanism that forces someone to buy something they don't want or need? I really hope not! Capitalism in healthcare includes having more than one provider offering their services. This competition drives down the cost and helps the consumer in the process. When there is only one provider we have what is called a monopoly and without any competition they can (and will) charge whatever they want. This is where we are heading with this "affordable healthcare plan"......one provider (the government) and spiraling, out of control costs that will do nothing excpet fleece everyone out of their hard earned cash.

In summary......I, being of sound mind & body and a free citizen of the United Sates of America, do hereby state that I do not want to be forced or coerced into buying ANYTHING I don't want. This includes, but is not limited to, specific brands of toothpaste, socks, canned spinach, motor oil, soda, shoes or, more importantly, health insurance.

I hope I did not dodge anything......I think it's pretty clear where I stand on this issue. If you feel the need to buy a health insurance policy for you and yours then by all means buy it. Just don't force me to do the same in order to subsidize those who take out more than they put in.

quote Originally posted by KidO: Just curious, what happens the day you need services that exceed the balance of your checkbook? Citing the gallstone example that Yellowstone gave, a condition that more than likely had no "genetic predisposition", with a cost of $72,000. Do you have that kind of cash laying around? Many of the health problems today are not hereditary, but environmental as well. Your lifestyle, where you live, what you do, all play a role in your health. Just because grandpa didn't die from it doesn't mean that you wont. You say you are willing to take the risk, but what will you do if you happen to lose your bet? Will you lay down and die? Or will you make an attempt to save yourself. Will you accept medical treatment that you can't afford? Will you default on the payment? Will you go bankrupt trying to pay? When you accept treatment you can't afford, or go bankrupt in the process, who do you think picks up your slack? The other guy, the one who has insurance. His costs rise from your lack of participation in the plan. We don't have to like it, but that is the way capitalism works. Healthcare is BIG Business, and they are in it to make money.

I hope you aren't inferring that we have had a 'capitalist' health care system in the recent years.