I bought an old Sears Craftsman 5 hp garden tiller from a guy on Craigslist. He wasn't the original owner, and had no idea how old it is.
It had been sitting for a long time.
It started up and ran OK, no smoke or odd noises, so I took it home and sprayed carb cleaner in it, and started it and let it run for a while several times.
Once it had run enough gas (already in tank) so that it would stay running, I adjusted the carb, installed a newer plug,and it would start fairly easy and idle smoothly.
The next day, I decided to start it and let it run the rest of the old (?) gas out.
It died after a couple of seconds, just as I was reaching for the choke to open it up.
Now no spark.
I can't find out if its an old engine with points and condenser, but I think it may be.
(I've never seen one before!)
There is a black wire that comes from the coil to the throttle thats obviously the kill wire.
There is another black wire that comes from the coil to some invisible place behind the flywheel.
Thats why I think this engine may be older than I thought it was.
I really don't want to spend the money for a new coil ($35+) if I can help it, but mama wants a garden, so.....

Should I pull the flywheel and sand the points (if I have points) , and hope it works?
Since Its Sears, I can't find the B&S number.

Pictures?
Sure. Here it is:


The steel gas tank and air filter are clues to the vintage of this beast. It has a reusable foam air cleaner.

The kill wire:
When the engine was running, I could touch it to the long stud shown in the picture to kill the engine.






I've had it with the old 2 HP 2 stroke Mantis tiller. This one will do some WORK once I get it to start.

Ideas?

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 12-19-2011).]

before you start messing with the spark, put fresh gas in with some BRIGGS stabilizer. do not use sta bil, sta bil doesn't do the same job as the briggs stabilizer. if it gets to running let it run with the stablizer in it and it will help clean out the carb and work the old gas out as well.

if it won't start at all and your postive no spark condtion then

im fairly sure that engine has points, points and condensor are cheap if you pull it apart id replace them. points gap should be 20 thousands. double check with the manual wirth that engine.
id regap the coil, its a 10 thousands gap. also make sure no break in wires and are connected to the proper spots and good contact.

let me know what you find i can help you through it.

Positive there's no spark. I bought a new plug, and cleaned the rust from the coil and flywheel ( I know. Briggs says it doesn't matter. but I do it anyway).
Gapped the coil with the thinnest business card I could find.
No breaks in the wires.

There is a tiny bare wire coming from the bottom of the coil that isn't connected to anything.
My old 2 HP edger (future mini bike) has one too. It isn't connected to anything either.
What is that?

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 01-10-2012).]

First check that the kill wire isn't grounding out. It is possible that is the issue.

Seeing as it ran, then didn't. If you remove the shroud, you will see where the spark comes from. (The termanology escapes me). You can sand down the surfaces lightly to increase conductivity.

Without being there, that is my only advice.

Tony

Edit. You did clean the flywheel.

Double check that kill wire. Looks mighty dry.

[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 12-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: First check that the kill wire isn't grounding out. It is possible that is the issue. Tony Edit. You did clean the flywheel. Double check that kill wire. Looks mighty dry.

Ditto

And also B&S has a pretty good website

http://www.superxpower.com/...Gtj60CFQXd4Aodu30OoA

It just might be of some help.

Good luck

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.

Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Ditto And also B&S has a pretty good website http://www.superxpower.com/...Gtj60CFQXd4Aodu30OoA It just might be of some help. Good luck Steve

Kill wire isn't grounding. It only appears dry because I sprayed the thing with Gunk degreaser a week ago when I brought it home.
Even though its obviously a Briggs and Stratton, I only have the Sears number, and they have no information on the engine.
Without the Briggs number, the Briggs website is useless.

I know Sears sold millions of these things......

you should have a briggs set of numbers on the engine shroud. should be a model type and code.

far as your wire. there is not a spot by the throttle control? around the carb. somewhere? gosh its been awhile since ive messsed with this era engine. but still should be a kill spot that it goes to unless something has been messed with.

i can take a look on one i have tomorrow and see what i see, should help.

did you clean the ground posts for the coil? they are what the screws go in, yes the flywheel doesn't matter but i also do it cuz i feel it should be done. my boss tells me i have no need to waste the time when i do it at work.

With the choke configuration in your pics I believe that engine is old enough to have points. Briggs engines without points say "magnetron" on the engine (usually on the pull start / engine shroud).

Unhook the kill switch wire and just let it hang free and try to start the engine.

The briggs model / serial numbers are usually stamped into the engine shroud.

quote Originally posted by red84sematt: you should have a briggs set of numbers on the engine shroud. should be a model type and code. far as your wire. there is not a spot by the throttle control? around the carb. somewhere? gosh its been awhile since ive messsed with this era engine. but still should be a kill spot that it goes to unless something has been messed with. i can take a look on one i have tomorrow and see what i see, should help. did you clean the ground posts for the coil? they are what the screws go in, yes the flywheel doesn't matter but i also do it cuz i feel it should be done. my boss tells me i have no need to waste the time when i do it at work.

Thanks for the suggestions!
The kill wire is exactly as it was when it was running perfectly. There is a place on the throttle assembly where it probably should go, but that isn't whats killing the spark.
I didn't clean the coil mounting posts/bolts, thats good advice. I'll try it!

I didn't see the B&S numbers anywhere.
I wonder if there is a less expensive points and condenser, like a Ford or Chevy that will work?
B&S parts are crazy expensive.

Briggs and stratton points and condensors aren't that bad i think its under 15 bucks from a dealer. ill check when i go into work tomorrow. far as anything else working idk, and for how long idk if it did.

with the kill wire not hooked up it should run. just would have to choke it to stop. or pull the wire from the plug.

its hard to do much without being there too look at things. ill keep thinking on it

in the picture by your carb. the numbers your looking for are right there. stamped into the tin. if im not mistaken now that i look again.

[This message has been edited by red84sematt (edited 12-19-2011).]

Those are Sears #s.
I tried them on the Briggs website, no luck.
The Sears website has no engine info.
Neither does the Sears live chat "tech."
I don't know what parts to look up/ order.

This shouldn't be so difficult.
Thanks for the advice, everybody!!!
Maybe I'll just spend the $45.00 and buy a Magnetron coil and clip all the wires.
My time and aggravation are worth something.

But I really hate to leave a puzzle unsolved.
My cheap old tiller is getting expensive.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 12-20-2011).]

I rebuilt Sears Tiller this last summer and this is where I found the information for my Tiller: http://www.searspartsdirect...t=0&shdMod=917299250

If you want to fix it frugally just pull the flywheel and see what's up with the points. That will also give you a chance to check out the flywheel key.

quote Originally posted by FrugalFiero: If you want to fix it frugally just pull the flywheel and see what's up with the points. That will also give you a chance to check out the flywheel key.

Yep.
.20. Thanks, Matt.
And I'll clean the coil mount.

I thought there was another B&S guy who frequented this forum, but he hasn't chimed in here yet.


Thanks everyone!

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 12-20-2011).]

neptune. give me the numbers you got. i forgot to look at the cost of the points and condensor today. ill write it down to do it tomorrow.

also, when you clean the ground posts just use a file, easy and quicker. i forgot to mention that earlier.

i know i had a issue like that with a tec. motor once sears numbers but it was a carb, issue. easier to fix and identify parts with the carb.

[This message has been edited by red84sematt (edited 12-20-2011).]

Does this thing have a magneto?Thats where the spark comes from if you have one.

james, no. this is a points and condensor engine. no mags on briggs. there is a magnetron ignition which is just newer electronic igntion. a plunger that from the engine moves the points as the rotates. .

Any news?

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: I wonder if there is a less expensive points and condenser, like a Ford or Chevy that will work? B&S parts are crazy expensive.

Remove the shroud and see whatcha got.




If you have what's on the left, it'll cost you about $7 (yes, seven bucks!) to get her going again. Have a look here, here and here.

When I worked on these engines way back in the 70's, the ignition kits usually included the fibre plunger. Not sure why these kits don't, so make sure the old plunger isn't binding in its bore.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 12-23-2011).]

hey neptune, any update? did you get it going?

Thanks for asking!
I've been too busy with Christmas and work to touch it.
It appears to have the points actuated directly by the crankshaft, not the older plunger type.
I thought it was a '90s engine, but it seems its 1982 or older.
The cylinder barrel is aluminum.
The Briggs number may be in an odd place, on the back of the shroud instead of the front or top. Just like Matt said.
I'll look tomorrow.

I'll post a pic when I get the flywheel off.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 12-27-2011).]

once you pull the flywheel. the plunger should be going to the crank and moves with the rotation of the crank thus moves the points.

As long as we're on the "Small Engine" topic.. I've got a Craftsman 5/24 snowblower.. Runs fine at idle, can even ramp up to full throttle.. As soon as I put a load on it.. bog.. die..

So.. Since it's an 80s model.. and from what info I got from the previous owner it sat for quite a few years, I'm thinking lack of compression, time for a rebuild..

The question.. Is it cheaper to bring to a small engine place to rebuild.. or just buy a new snowblower? Back in the day I would have said rebuild in a heartbeat.. but these days of disposable items.. not so sure.

And before anyone asks.. Sorry I didnt take small engine repair in HS.. I don't think I've got the skills needed to rebuild the thing. I think I hit my peak with replacing an intake manifold on the Fiero.

It may have the same engine as my tiller...
I found more usable info on Youtube than I did with Google!
I was 12 when I put new rings in an old 2 1/2 hp iron Briggs.
When it started, I felt like a genius.

I had forgotten that they're fun to work on, because unlike a Fiero, you almost never skin a knuckle working on a B&S.

Anyway, I say fix it. The old ones will take much more abuse than a new one will.

Thanks Neptune.. (OMG.. I printed that out loud)
BTW same model.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ad9genThok

5hp throws for poop but if you're willing to take the time still better than shoveling a 150' two car driveway.

Not even sure what engine is in it, got the thing for free.. and the past two winters just did an oil change, change the spark plug and away we went.
This winter.. had a lil itty bitty 2" ish dusting and as soon as I put load on the impeller poof.. died.. every time.. tried playing with the carb setting.. no luck (worked last year) Year we had 19" in one snowfall..

Edit.. just did a bit more digging.. looks like a temusch engine.. not a BnS

[This message has been edited by Uaana (edited 12-27-2011).]

as far as taking it to a shop. unless they are into rebuilding alot of shops won't do it even if they have the skills and time. just not cost effective for a sears snowblower, even some decent qaulity equipment the cost of rebuilding vs buying a new one isn't worth the money to have a engine rebuilt.

a good example we had at work a few weeks back, a older (i want to say 10-15 years old) ariens snowblower with a tecumseh engine. coudn't get a replacement engine as they are out of buisness and the replacement from a warehouse we found was very high. to change to a briggs engine just as much but would be more time into it and would have over $800 into it just not worth it when you can put that into a new
machine and be further ahead.


now doing on your own, i could see doing it as you wan't have the labor price of a shop to do it. you can find a small shop with cheaper rates, but qaulity work may be a issue(just something to think about)

and to be honest you still have a older snowblower in the end, but if you want to id say go for it. thats just my thoughts.

Thanks Red.. this is the option http://tinyurl.com/88cpera

interesting, but i belive those snow tek ones are the low end of the scale and are sold more at home depot like that then at dealers. i know my boss won't carry them. the snow tek series if i remember correctly is made to compete with the mtd/poulan ect. cheaper brand/machines.

i will double check at work but im fairly sure that is what those snow teks were made for. we handle ariens snowblowers at work they are really the best snowblower out there from what ive seen when working on them. though i havn't touched a snow tek yet.

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: It appears to have the points actuated directly by the crankshaft, not the older plunger type.

Wanna bet?

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 12-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: The points on my engine are behind the flywheel.

Yes, I know that.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: As long as we're on the "Small Engine" topic.. I've got a Craftsman 5/24 snowblower.. Runs fine at idle, can even ramp up to full throttle.. As soon as I put a load on it.. bog.. die.. So.. Since it's an 80s model.. and from what info I got from the previous owner it sat for quite a few years, I'm thinking lack of compression, time for a rebuild..

I'd bet low compression isn't your issue.
Give it a good carb rebuild. Good.

[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 12-28-2011).]

i checked at work today and yes those snow tek ariens are made and sold to compete with the cheaper models everyone else sells.

First, happy new year and thanks to all who have tried to help me with this simple frustrating problem.
Model # is 130202, Type is 0685-20, Ser# is 8103230.
Its older than any Fiero!
Today I had a chance to work on the little beast, so I pulled the flywheel:

I expected the key to look like an aluminum coin cut in half, instead I found two little steel wedges.
No problem, they reinstalled easily enough.



Much cleaner than I expected. In fact, the points and condenser look new!


Starter drive.



What is that tiny little loose wire under the coil for? My other horizontal shaft (2 1/2 hp) Briggs has it too.(It runs fine)


OK, so now I have TWO problems.
When I went to reinstall the starter drive, two of the balls fell out. I tried every way I could think of to reinstall them, and nothing worked.
Even though I know you aren't supposed to grease the balls, I had no choice but to apply the tiniest bit of grease to each ball to keep them in place long enough to reassemble the thing.
The results were predictable.
Even though I carefully used as little grease as possible, the results were the same as if I had used a spoonful of JB Weld.
The starter wouldn't catch. After spraying half a can of carburetor cleaner into the assembly in an attempt to wash away the grease, the starter works now.
Sometimes.
If I give it a whack.

Oh.
And still no spark.
I sanded the coil mounting bosses, and the back of the coil.
I sanded the points with 1000 grit paper and cleaned the area with carb cleaner, then adjusted the points to .20.
I have never had a coil fail when cold before, they have always failed when hot, then worked again when cold.
This no spark condition began within seconds of startup.
How can such a simple machine be so difficult to repair?
I dunno yet, but thanks for reading this far.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 01-02-2012).]

first issue i see the key, is supposed to be one piece not broken like yours. that is likely part of your problem, throws timing out. you need a new key. as long as you can access the points and condensor i would put new ones in, as the condensors do go bad over time. it may be pointless to keep going only to have to tear it apart a dozen times thinking they are good. now depending on where you get the parts some places have the points and condesors in a package and they usually include a new key. i actually wonder if your spark issue is really more from the key being sheared then anything else. i would get the points and condensor install new key and test.

far as the starter clutch goes how did you remove the flywheel? if you hit it with a hammer or brass hammer you probally made a burr on the end and makes the starter clutch not work properly. take a file to the end the crank. what i do when i have trouble with those clutches getting the balls in place, simply leave it on the engine and tip it so the engine is fairly level(they must be clean) .

now the lower half of the cluch must be screwed on the crank, then once you have filed the crank for the rotating part, put a drop of oil in the hole on the top. then slide it on the crank, place steel balls in proper place. then you can tap the cover on and PUT THE SCREWS ON IT or it will fall off and you have to start over.

also one tip, you don't need to put the clutch on to test the points. you can simply rock it back and forth and check for spark(magnet rocking by coil), saves time putting things together.


im going to reread your post so i can gain some more details on ur problem. will edit this when im done.


the wire on the bottom of the coil i think you are referring to is the one that has a eye and is supposed to be where the screw goes through.
or u mean the kill wire that has a slide on terminal and slides on the tang from the coil. that wire not being hooked up is ok, as u can get fire where its hooked up or not, it is just the kill


let me know i will keep checking for updates.

[This message has been edited by red84sematt (edited 01-02-2012).]

Thanks Matt. I wondered about the key.
I'll get a new one.
I still can't figure out how to get the balls back in.
But I'll have to take the thing off again anyway, so maybe it'll be easier when its off the engine, and I can hold it together when I reinstall it.
The kill wire runs from the top of the condenser to the throttle, or it used to.
The mystery wire is very fine and it runs from the bottom of the coil to nowhere.
My 2 hp edger has the metal flap/ sparkplug kill, and has the same loose wire.
I'm pretty sure this isn't part of the problem, I'm just curious.

Again, thanks so much for the help!

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 01-02-2012).]

i guess im not seeing ur fine wire then. must be the picture. ill ponder it.

the clutch can stay on the engine (you have to remove the flywheel anyway). just tip it so that you are looking down on it. take the cover off. pull off the ractheting part(part that catches the balls) clean it up. put rachet back on place balls in proper places and reinstall cover. then make sure to put the screws on so the cover does not come off.

let me know

[This message has been edited by red84sematt (edited 01-02-2012).]

I didn't read all the post but is there should be one wire from the coil that grounds on one of the mount bolts. Is that there? Could that be the small wire that you see. The coil normally just has two wires from it. One to the points and one to a ground point. The Kill wire usually connects on the condensor point along with one wire from the coil.

B&S engines are the only ones I like as I can "always" make them run. I have two tillers with that same engine.

Once I saw the split flywheel key I knew that was probably your problem. I have run into that before on engines I have picked up.
Be sure the key you got was a soft key and not a steel key. It's made to sheer like that for a reason. If you got it from a B&S parts shop you should be good.

If you connect a ohm meter between the ground wire and the points wire you should have some resistance. I don't know how much it should read but there should be some amount.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 01-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: I didn't read all the post but is there should be one wire from the coil that grounds on one of the mount bolts. Is that there? Could that be the small wire that you see. The coil normally just has two wires from it. One to the points and one to a ground point. The Kill wire usually connects on the condensor point along with one wire from the coil. B&S engines are the only ones I like as I can "always" make them run. I have two tillers with that same engine. Once I saw the split flywheel key I knew that was probably your problem. I have run into that before on engines I have picked up. Be sure the key you got was a soft key and not a steel key. It's made to sheer like that for a reason. If you got it from a B&S parts shop you should be good. If you connect a ohm meter between the ground wire and the points wire you should have some resistance. I don't know how much it should read but there should be some amount.

Good info, and thanks for jumping in.
The little wire from the bottom of the coil wasn't connected to anything when I first had it running well enough to adjust the carb, but I'll ground it as you suggested and see what happens.
It does seem strange that a wire was put there for no purpose.
After wrenching on Fieros for a while, I have learned the value of a good (extra) ground.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 01-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: I found two little steel wedges.

The "two little steel wedges" should be one rectangular aluminum key.

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: When I went to reinstall the starter drive, two of the balls fell out.

Why did you take the starter clutch assembly apart in the first place? Put the two halves together while they're off the engine and you'll have no problem with your balls.

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: I sanded the points with 1000 grit paper and cleaned the area with carb cleaner, then adjusted the points to .20

Try .020" for the points!

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: The mystery wire is very fine and it runs from the bottom of the coil to nowhere.

Regarding the two wires from the coil (as I remember from years ago)... One wire (with an eyelet) was a ground, the other wire went to the points/condenser, and a third wire (not leading to the coil, but also connected to the points/condenser) went to the kill switch on the carb assembly.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 01-03-2012).]