quote Originally posted by Gandalf: And this affects cliffw how exactly? Since its those technical posts that got you all that green in your bar, there would be very little reason for anyone tired of your pathetic, puerile whinging not to change their pos to a neg, and get rid of you. Your positive contributing posts are generally hugely outweighed by your childish pedantry in TOT anyway. Edit for spelling

What's whinging? Is that a UK term?

quote Originally posted by Gandalf: And this affects cliffw how exactly?

Evidently, he thinks he can make cliffw look bad by saying "I'm leaving, and taking my tech posts with me, because cliffw MADE me leave". Pretty obvious tactic, really.

Use the search function newb. It's in the "tech section".

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: As you wish. Deletions commencing now.

Well, that was quick, turns out most of my contributions are archived. Got rid of the column and heater core thread, anyway.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Well, that was quick, turns out most of my contributions are archived.

Awwww, your childish plan fails. Boo fricking hoo.

quote Got rid of the column and heater core thread, anyway.

*Whew!* What a relief, you *really* showed him!

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: What's whinging? Is that a UK term?

Yes :

whinge (hwnj, wnj)
intr.v. whinged, whing·ing, whing·es Chiefly British
To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner.

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[Dialectal alteration of Middle English whinsen, from Old English hwinsian.]

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Appropriate, I think.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Well, that was quick, turns out most of my contributions are archived. Got rid of the column and heater core thread, anyway.

I just don't get it. What does this accomplish? I didn't get it last time either... the '.' era...

You spent all that time to make a better place, and then blow it up? I know it's your right and all... but why even go through the effort in the first place?

People won't get mad/irritated at cliff for this... they will be mad at the guy who took it away.

You don't owe me an explanation... or if you think your words would be twisted... you could PM/call me.
I just want to understand, though I don't think I will be able to...

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: I just don't get it. What does this accomplish? I didn't get it last time either... the '.' era... You spent all that time to make a better place, and then blow it up? I know it's your right and all... but why even go through the effort in the first place? People won't get mad/irritated at cliff for this... they will be mad at the guy who took it away. You don't owe me an explanation... or if you think your words would be twisted... you could PM/call me. I just want to understand, though I don't think I will be able to...

Don't have your phone number so can't call. I made it clear what the issue was on this thread. I really don't like it when people edit my words and leave my name in the quote tags. How strongly don't I like it? As you can see, pretty much more than I value my contributions to this forum. This forum is not the same as it was when I spent thousands of hours writing articles and helping others here. After all the personal attacks, the blackmail, the hate and mockery that I've experienced from my fellow forum members, exactly what value should I place on my contributions here? Especially in light of the fact that several of my fellow forum members feel those contributions aren't valuable, as stated in this very thread? Clifford decided to call my bluff, only it wasn't a bluff. There's no backup of anything I delete, its gone. From what I hear, it won't be missed anyway.

This forum is what its members make of it, and I am just one member of thousands so I can have no practical impact here.

This forum makes me wish I had never gotten into Fieros back in 1997. Overall, it's been a net negative in my life.

Changed my mind, I will sell stuff here. However, I will exercise my right to choose who I sell to, and to be sure the folks who seem to revel in attacking me won't be customers of mine. I bet myself one beeeelion dollars I'll be attacked for this decision as well. Sigh.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 11-22-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Time to start scrapping cars and related stuff. No, none it will be for sale here, its going in a dumpster or the scrapyard, not a wrecking yard.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: *snip* Clifford decided to call my bluff, only it wasn't a bluff. There's no backup of anything I delete, its gone. From what I hear, it won't be missed anyway. This forum is what its members make of it, and I am just one member of thousands so I can have no practical impact here. This forum makes me wish I had never gotten into Fieros back in 1997. Overall, it's been a net negative in my life. Time to start scrapping cars and related stuff. No, none [of*] it will be for sale here, its going in a dumpster or the scrapyard, not a wrecking yard.

Huh. So he couldn't piss off the forum by deleting all of his helpful posts. So what Jazzman? Did you think to yourself;
"How else can I get revenge on the forum for all the negativity its brought into my life?"
"Oh yeah, they hate it when good Fieros go to waste, that's what I can do to piss off people!"

Oh well, its your choice, but I'm sure there would be members willing to pay for your items, and it might help out with your medical bills that you mentioned in another thread.


*(you forgot the word "of" in your post up there, I added it for clarity, if you want me to remove it let me know < Smileys mean lighthearted jabs, right Jazzman?)

ughhh, grammar error edit.

[This message has been edited by 1988holleyformula (edited 11-22-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Don't have your phone number so can't call. (snip)

well, you know my forum name and had you wanted my TN, a PM is all it would have taken...

Thanks for taking the time to give the explanation. You're right, it was posted earlier... and I was right... I still don't get it.
We just have different ways of resolving/dealing with issues, I suppose.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: After all the personal attacks, the blackmail, the hate and mockery that I've experienced from my fellow forum members, exactly what value should I place on my contributions here? Especially in light of the fact that several of my fellow forum members feel those contributions aren't valuable (snip)

Man, you have said over and over and over... that the opinions of people on here matter as much as a cricket fart. You invited us to share the pain of some of your experiences from the erratic heart murmur, to the break in(s), to the loss of pets,... so I would think that these personal insights mean something to you. I can't recall... but I would hope that those threads that no one disparged you... even those that you consider your nemesis's(ii?). So logic suggests to me, that this place does matter. And then to let cricket fart opinions, edits, and obviously and intetionally marked misquotes, in useless political topics that would never change the mind of any reader... destroy the things that this whole forum was built for...

I guess THAT's the part I don't get.

One thing for certain... no one can ever say that you didn't take a stand an then waffle on it.

I do tend to agree with you that the whole 'Fiero Effect' has been a negative in your life.
I also think that if it wasn't Fiero's... that it would have been something else.

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: Man, you have said over and over and over... that the opinions of people on here matter as much as a cricket fart. You invited us to share the pain of some of your experiences from the erratic heart murmur, to the break in(s), to the loss of pets,... so I would think that these personal insights mean something to you. I can't recall... but I would hope that those threads that no one disparged you... even those that you consider your nemesis's(ii?). So logic suggests to me, that this place does matter. And then to let cricket fart opinions, edits, and obviously and intetionally marked misquotes, in useless political topics that would never change the mind of any reader... destroy the things that this whole forum was built for... I guess THAT's the part I don't get. One thing for certain... no one can ever say that you didn't take a stand an then waffle on it. I do tend to agree with you that the whole 'Fiero Effect' has been a negative in your life. I also think that if it wasn't Fiero's... that it would have been something else.

That's too bad that's your take on it, blake.

Edit to add: WRT phone number, it got lost when Verizon moved my contacts over to my new phone a few months ago. Since I couldn't remember the last time I called and got through to you and as a general rule you don't call me more than a few times a year. I figured I'd just get the number the next time you called. As to this conversation, not sure what difference voice would make over typing.

The early years of owning a Fiero and being a part of the community was positive. Though I've only been on the forum eight or so years I was on the mailing list years before that. It's only been the last few years where the general tone of the forum has become so negative and destructive, particularly when I was blackmailed, that really undid a lot of the positive credit with me here. CliffW's attacks were sort of the final straw, so to speak. He decided he would deliberately provoke me, pick a fight, and screw the consequences. The way I see it, I only had a few ways to play this. I could go down to Kerville and put an end to it in person, but that was out of the question because I'm not violent, never have been, and never will be. What other leverage did I have? Pennock doesn't give a thit, so any moderation by him would be out of the question. Besides, based on emails we exchanged back when I was being blackmailed he made it clear he has a distinct dislike for me. I may have had friends here in the past, but nobody stepped up here so it's pretty clear I'm alone. All I had left are my tech posts. Maybe I overplayed my hand, maybe not, but I'm just tired of people attacking me with impunity, with no consequences. If the folks on this forum want to foster a negative, hostile environment, then maybe I don't want my contributions to be here. Simple as that.

For whatever reason, CliffW decided to play a hand, and I played with the cards I had. Nobody won this one, but for damn sure it can't be said that I didn't play.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 11-22-2011).]

Just in case anyone needs the write ups about the heater core and/or the column, I went ahead and found them on Google's nifty "cached page" feature. They're current up until yesterday. I'll re-post them when I have some more time.

quote Originally posted by theburner9: Just in case anyone needs the write ups about the heater core and/or the column, I went ahead and found them on Google's nifty "cached page" feature. They're current up until yesterday. I'll re-post them when I have some more time.

I still hold the copyright on those, I'd appreciate it if you didn't post them here or anywhere.

well guess what! there's a lot of people that would appreciate it if you weren't such a moron-- too bad not everyone always gets what they appreciate. It's a rough life.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I still hold the copyright on those, I'd appreciate it if you didn't post them here or anywhere.

Yeah... This is still the internet, you know? If it has been posted, it is going to stay online until they shut the whole thing down.
You'd be better off making that claim to google.

That said, I agree that the overall tone of the forum has changed, even since I've been lurking here... For better or worse, it seems to represent the change found in the US and across the globe in the last decade.

quote Originally posted by theburner9: well guess what! there's a lot of people that would appreciate it if you weren't such a moron-- too bad not everyone always gets what they appreciate. It's a rough life.

Are you saying that you are going to post my copyrighted work here against my wishes and without my permission?

quote Originally posted by theburner9: Just in case anyone needs the write ups about the heater core and/or the column, I went ahead and found them on Google's nifty "cached page" feature. They're current up until yesterday. I'll re-post them when I have some more time.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Are you saying that you are going to post my copyrighted work here against my wishes and without my permission?

Actually it appeared he was saying he would post links to Google's cache. Are you going to sue Google? I bet they have deep pockets!

quote Originally posted by OKflyboy: Actually it appeared he was saying he would post links to Google's cache. Are you going to sue Google? I bet they have deep pockets!

He seems to be saying he will repost my content here using Google as the source. The key word in his statement is "re-post".

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: He seems to be saying he will repost my content here using Google as the source. The key word in his statement is "re-post".

Okay okay, you may be right. As the copyright holder, I'm sure you could sue him for doing so, but why would you, really, when the content is already cached?

quote Originally posted by Jazzman I still hold the copyright on those, I'd appreciate it if you didn't post them here or anywhere.

Are we supposed to be believe that you filed for a copyright on everything you wrote? That would certainly be some feat. You should also know that not all works are covered by copyright laws.
http://www.how-to-copyright-it.com/

quote Because not all works are eligible for protection under copyright law, it's important that you know what types of works are protected: Those works that are protected by. copyright law include: literary, musical, dramatic, pictorial, graphic, sculptural, architectural, choreographic, and audiovisual works as well as sound recordings, motion pictures, and pantomimes.

I don't know if posting on an automotive forum would be considered literature and if it would be covered.

literature
Definition
lit·er·a·ture[ líttərəchər ]NOUN
1. written works with artistic value: written works, e.g. fiction, poetry, drama, and criticism, that are recognized as having important or permanent artistic value
2. body of written works: the body of written works of a culture, language, people, or period of time
"Russian literature"
3. writings on subject: the body of published work concerned with a particular subject
"scientific literature"
4. body of music: the body of musical compositions for a particular instrument or group of instruments
"literature for the piano"
5. printed information: printed matter such as brochures or flyers that give information
"the company's promotional literature"
6. production of literary works: the creation of literary work, especially as an art or occupation

I suggest you consult with a lawyer about the legalities before making such claims.

quote Originally posted by Jazzman Hey cliff, make you a deal. How about you remove my name from quotes of me that you edited, or ill delete all my technical posts as well. I'll give you until 5pm today to think about it. Deletions will start at 5pm starting with the most useful and I won't be making backups, so they will be gone forever. Your choice, your play.

Didn't you recently try to tell me you didn't delete any of your technical posts? You are a hypocrite for sure and don't deserve any respect on this forum. My question to you still stands. Why to do remain here if you hate it so much?

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 11-22-2011).]

quote Originally posted by avengador1: I don't know if posting on an automotive forum would be considered literature and if it would be covered. literature Definition lit·er·a·ture[ líttərəchər ]NOUN 1. written works with artistic value: written works, e.g. fiction, poetry, drama, and criticism, that are recognized as having important or permanent artistic value 2. body of written works: the body of written works of a culture, language, people, or period of time "Russian literature" 3. writings on subject: the body of published work concerned with a particular subject "scientific literature" 4. body of music: the body of musical compositions for a particular instrument or group of instruments "literature for the piano" 5. printed information: printed matter such as brochures or flyers that give information "the company's promotional literature" 6. production of literary works: the creation of literary work, especially as an art or occupation I suggest you consult with a lawyer about the legalities before making such claims.

I feel like it would fall under #3 of the definition there. But if it is indeed copyright protected then surly there is some proof of Copyright, such as a LEGALZOOM.com Certificate. which will also show the date in which it was copyrighted and then there wouldn't be any problems or childish name calling and bickering. That would be the adult thing to do at this point wouldn't everyone agree?

I'm not a lawyer, but from what I understand about copyrights is that you have to copyright your work before you release it into the public domain. I know we have some lawyers on the forum. Maybe they can chime in on this.

quote Originally posted by OKflyboy: Okay okay, you may be right. As the copyright holder, I'm sure you could sue him for doing so, but why would you, really, when the content is already cached?

I wouldn't sue him I'd just get a take-down notice sent per the DMCPA. Lawsuits only really are practical if there are damages to be recovered, so if he took my work, made a pamphlet out of it, and started selling it to people I'd have a damage claim and could seize all the profits plus damages, probably equal to triple profit he made, plus my legal costs.

Jazz,

Remember when I helped you move the images from that thread over to the PFF server?

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...100421-2-096877.html

quote Originally posted by avengador1: I suggest you consult with a lawyer about the legalities before making such claims.

I suggest that his implication that a fellow forum member is a child molester would be a more acute issue for him than his imaginary copyright declaration.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I wonder what kinds of problems this might cause for Cliff (Pennock)?

None. He had no problem with his website being used for blackmail and zero issues with Avengador's wholesale copy-n-paste posting other's work product here. Of course, you want to spin anything you can against me. From your posting history I believe you are capable of premeditated violence against another human being including homicide so I'm more concerned about you than Pennock who has a demonstrated history of not giving a crap.

Here's an interesting article explaining some copyright myths.
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

quote )"So I can't ever reproduce anything?" Myth #11 (I didn't want to change the now-famous title of this article) is actually one sometimes generated in response to this list of 10 myths. No, copyright isn't an iron-clad lock on what can be published. Indeed, by many arguments, by providing reward to authors, it encourages them to not just allow, but fund the publication and distribution of works so that they reach far more people than they would if they were free or unprotected -- and unpromoted. However, it must be remembered that copyright has two main purposes, namely the protection of the author's right to obtain commercial benefit from valuable work, and more recently the protection of the author's general right to control how a work is used. While copyright law makes it technically illegal to reproduce almost any new creative work (other than under fair use) without permission, if the work is unregistered and has no real commercial value, it gets very little protection. The author in this case can sue for an injunction against the publication, actual damages from a violation, and possibly court costs. Actual damages means actual money potentially lost by the author due to publication, plus any money gained by the defendant. But if a work has no commercial value, such as a typical E-mail message or conversational USENET posting, the actual damages will be zero. Only the most vindictive (and rich) author would sue when no damages are possible, and the courts don't look kindly on vindictive plaintiffs, unless the defendants are even more vindictive. The author's right to control what is done with a work, however, has some validity, even if it has no commercial value. If you feel you need to violate a copyright "because you can get away with it because the work has no value" you should ask yourself why you're doing it. In general, respecting the rights of creators to control their creations is a principle many advocate adhering to. In addition, while quite often people make incorrect claims of "fair use" it is a still valid and important concept necessary to allow the criticism of copyrighted works and their creators through examples. It's also been extended to allow things like home recording of TV shows and moving music from CDs you own to your MP3 player. But please read more about it before you do it.

Since Jazzman doesn't have a pot to piss in, his threats about going after others for reposting his "copyrighted" posts are more bark than bite. For all we know, all of his "technical" posting were "fair use" of a workshop manual and not an original work. Also it is very hard to claim any monetary damages when there aren't any incurred. Also criticizing the owner of the forum is not a great idea. This is his home and we need to follow his rules if we wish to remain here.

Did you know that on average, 100 people choke to death on ballpoint pens every year?