quote Originally posted by hugh: You have no class,if Stimpy defended himself he is trolling,if he doesn't defend himself your remark will stand.

You don't know him. You might think you do, but you don't. And the trolling isn't about defending himself. You don't know what you're talking about.

quote Originally posted by texasfiero: From the Christian perspective, don't confuse 'forgiveness' with accountability and punishment. Forgiveness is: as if he'd never committed the crime. Accountability is: he is responsible for committing the acts. Punishment is: he suffers the consequences of his actions. God forgives, and expects us to do the same. Though He forgives, He does NOT ignore the act. He allows the act to reveal its own punishment in many cases. In others He takes an active part.

Good post. I was about to post something similar. Forgiveness of actions is different from being excused from consequences. I could forgive the man, but I would still pull the switch. ultimately he has to get right with God, not me.

Jim

quote Originally posted by texasfiero: From the Christian perspective, don't confuse 'forgiveness' with accountability and punishment. Forgiveness is: as if he'd never committed the crime. Accountability is: he is responsible for committing the acts. Punishment is: he suffers the consequences of his actions. God forgives, and expects us to do the same. Though He forgives, He does NOT ignore the act. He allows the act to reveal its own punishment in many cases. In others He takes an active part.

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: Good post. I was about to post something similar. Forgiveness of actions is different from being excused from consequences. I could forgive the man, but I would still pull the switch. ultimately he has to get right with God, not me. Jim

Yes, very good.
I of course wasn't asking about accountability and punishment, I was asking about forgiveness.

From The Web On Forgiveness:

Forgive ~ stop blaming or grant forgiveness;
absolve from payment;

The process of concluding resentment, indignation or anger as a result of a perceived offense, difference or mistake, and/or ceasing to demand punishment or restitution.

To pardon, to waive any negative feeling or desire for punishment; To accord forgiveness

Forgiving - inclined or able to forgive and show mercy;

Forgiving - absolvitory: providing absolution

Forgiveness - compassionate feelings that support a willingness to forgive

Forgiveness - the act of excusing a mistake or offense

A Religious Website Has This To Offer:

What is a definition for forgiveness?

A definition for forgiveness could be -- giving up my right to hurt you, for hurting me. It is impossible to live on this fallen planet without getting hurt, offended, misunderstood, lied to, and rejected. Learning how to respond properly is one of the basics of the Christian life.

There is confusion about what is involved with forgiveness. Forgiveness is not saying that things are okay now, and then going back into an abusive situation. It is not letting someone off the hook by saying, “You didn’t do anything wrong.” Some people think that forgiveness is unconditional love with no boundaries or accountability. It is not. Forgiveness is not denial that a hurtful situation exists, and it isn’t denying the fact that your feelings are hurt. And forgiveness does not mean you accept the person’s behavior.

What does God say about forgiveness?

The Bible gives us much instruction when it comes to forgiveness.
We forgive because we have been forgiven by God (Ephesians 4:32).
We forgive in obedience to God (Matthew 6:14-15; Romans 12:18).
We forgive others to gain control of our lives from hurt emotions (Genesis 4:1-8).
We forgive so we won’t become bitter and defile those around us (Hebrews 12:14-15).
What if I don’t feel like forgiving others?
There are times we don’t feel like forgiving those who have wronged us. It is easier to act our way into feeling than to feel our way into acting. Having a nature of not forgiving others brings about bitterness, and bitterness has been linked to stress-related illnesses by some medical researchers. By forgiving others, we free ourselves spiritually and emotionally. Forgiveness is an act of our own personal will in obedience and submission to God’s will, trusting God to bring emotional healing.

How can I help those struggling with forgiveness?
People who have experienced abuse, trauma, or loss need time to sort things out and let God bring them to the place of forgiveness in His time. God’s timing is always the right time for each individual. The act of forgiving others is between us and God. The only time we need to forgive a person face-to-face is at the moment we are asked by that person to forgive them for the hurt they have caused.

There are things we can do to help those struggling with the forgiveness of others. We can support them with encouraging words and by listening to them. Taking our time and being gentle with them will allow them to progress through the steps of forgiveness the way God wants them to proceed.

A prayer of forgiveness
Dear God, I choose as an act of my will, regardless of my feelings, to forgive the person who has wronged me. I release them, and I set myself free to Your healing. With Your help, I will no longer dwell on the situation or continue to talk about it. I thank You for forgiving me as I have forgiven them. I thank You for releasing me. I ask this in Jesus’ name, amen.

My question is this: Can a normal everyday person really feel forgiveness toward such a person?
I mean, If it is all true, how can a normal everyday person stand in front of this person and say to them, "I forgive you."?

How is one able to do that?

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: There are times when I can't really get a good solid feel for where you stand on certain things. This ain't one of those times.

There are several things that I am wishy washy about and this isn't one of them.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: My question is this: Can a normal everyday person really feel forgiveness toward such a person? I mean, If it is all true, how can a normal everyday person stand in front of this person and say to them, "I forgive you."? How is one able to do that?

I have no idea. I have heard of parents of murdered children going and forgiving the killer, face to face. But I honestly have no idea how they could do such a thing. I know I couldn't. In a situation like this I dont know that I could forgive the person who did it.

I wonder how the parents of the children feel right now. The ones that were in the rooms when it happened. You know that even though they are not at fault that they have to blame themselves on some level. This is gonna end up a mess.

Brad

quote Originally posted by fierobear: You don't know him. You might think you do, but you don't. And the trolling isn't about defending himself. You don't know what you're talking about.

It wasn't me who brought up his name and accused him of being a potential troller.He hasn't even posted in this thread,but if he does it will probably be(as with most threads you post in)to defend himself against you.
A couple of years ago I visited him at his home,and he was very cordial as was his wife,Barbra. His humor
is sharp and is not appreciated by everyone.When I say I would rather have someone like him as a friend than you I know exactly what I am talking about.If people would take the time and go back over past threads both you and Jeff were in,they may realize,he is usually defending himself against you and someone else (who I don't prefer to name).
You say I don't know him.As I just said I visited him a few years ago and have had quite a few conversations over the phone with him before and after that visit.I know Jeff better than a lot of people on here and he is not how you picture him.
I don't like your tactics.

If found guilty I would volunteer my services to cut this guys balls off with no pain killers and then shove them as far down his throat as my arm will cram them.

A$$hole.

Steve

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

It's all good, Hugh. I appreciate the validation from your friendship. You are among the kindest and most generous man I have ever had the priveledge of breaking bread with. John is among the most stupid and petty people that God has sent my way to test me. He has made the same "joke" in at least two threads in the past week trying to bait me, classy huh? He is upset that I haven't forgotten that he posted on this forum that a certain high ranking politician should be "SHOT!"(sic). Oh well.

In order to try to bring this topic back and away from John's pathetic attention seeking tangent, I failed to see in the article anywhere where he had been found guilty by a jury trial. Having lived during the time of the McMartin school trial, I still entertain the notion that people can and do get falsely accused of some very heinous crimes. To me the number of offenses comitted makes me have a reasonable doubt. I need some proof that he actually comitted these crimes. A jury needs to review the videotapes that are going to be the heart of the case and discern if this is evidence of any crime. If he is guilty, I hope that he is judged harshly. If he is innocent, then I will remind everyone who cares that fierobear supports lynchmobs!

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stimpy

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Here's a hint for you...don't believe everything you THINK.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: He has made the same "joke" in at least two threads in the past week trying to bait me, classy huh? He is upset that I haven't forgotten that he posted on this forum that a certain high ranking politician should be "SHOT!"(sic). Oh well.

Jeff for Christ's sake!
The man retracted,apologized and admitted it was a wrong thing to say and yet you have brought it up several times hence the joking by John.

He doesn't start this crap with you. You bring it up. You are always the guy that can't let it go.
He should have left it alone knowing how much of an insecure prick you can be but he didn't.
Both at fault but don't go around acting like you are so ****ing innocent. You're guilty as hell.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Jeff for Christ's sake! The man retracted,apologized and admitted it was a wrong thing to say and yet you have brought it up several times hence the joking by John. He doesn't start this crap with you. You bring it up. You are always the guy that can't let it go. He should have left it alone knowing how much of an insecure prick you can be but he didn't. Both at fault but don't go around acting like you are so ****ing innocent. You're guilty as hell.

Oh kay. So John is joking around. I'm joking around. It's all in good spirited fun. Didn't you see the smiley face? So what am I "guilty" about? If John wants to call me a troll, he has every right to do that. It may even be justified. I merely explained why John is using that particular tactic to try to push my button, and in explaining the context I mentioned John's apparently retracted and apologized-for statement that he made expressing his desire for said politician to catch a bullet. Cause and effect, if John wasn't trying to make an issue out of it, I wouldn't have had to explain myself. "Innocent"? I've never claimed that, and I've wasted more then enough time trying to explain myself to you that you should know that.

So, are we done wasting time on this? can the tread get back to the subject and away from the pissing contest?

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: He doesn't start this crap with you. You bring it up. You are always the guy that can't let it go.

It's not even a matter of "he can dish it out but can't take it." It's more like "he LOVES to dish it out, but comes unglued when it comes back".

Boondawg:

People forgive in the face of horrific pain and damage because it gives them relief, instead of the burden of carrying hate, bitterness and hurt around for the rest of their lives. Considering, that it is not possible for any of us to carry another's hurt for them anyway, it's the only thing that makes sense. We just hand that hurt, pain, and hate over to the one entity that CAN carry it for someone else. It is a tradgedy, that things like this happen, things that can destroy a young life--even to the point of taking that life, but it is far worse to allow it to destroy the lives of all connected due to an inability to never forgive.

FORGET, now, is a different story.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: It's not even a matter of "he can dish it out but can't take it." It's more like "he LOVES to dish it out, but comes unglued when it comes back".

Au contraire. I'm not the least bit "unglued". I am quite calm and happy with my life. You seem to believe that you have some special power that makes my head explode whenever you say something stupid. It just isn't so. Sorry. I'm also sorry to everyone else who has tried to have a mature discussion about this sensitive topic.

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stimpy

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Here's a hint for you...don't believe everything you THINK.

where's that "eating popcorn" emoticon?

thanks, dawg.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 02-28-2010).]

quote Originally posted by lurker: where's that "eating popcorn" emoticon?

One for me:



And one for you:

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Boondawg: People forgive in the face of horrific pain and damage because it gives them relief, instead of the burden of carrying hate, bitterness and hurt around for the rest of their lives. Considering, that it is not possible for any of us to carry another's hurt for them anyway, it's the only thing that makes sense. We just hand that hurt, pain, and hate over to the one entity that CAN carry it for someone else. It is a tradgedy, that things like this happen, things that can destroy a young life--even to the point of taking that life, but it is far worse to allow it to destroy the lives of all connected due to an inability to never forgive. FORGET, now, is a different story.

Quotable

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: Au contraire. I'm not the least bit "unglued". I am quite calm and happy with my life. You seem to believe that you have some special power that makes my head explode whenever you say something stupid. It just isn't so. Sorry. I'm also sorry to everyone else who has tried to have a mature discussion about this sensitive topic.

So you're perfectly calm when calling people "whiney c***s" and so on? Well, goodie for you. You sure know how to look unglued in the way you type.

If they had a gold medal for trolls, you'd win.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Boondawg: People forgive in the face of horrific pain and damage because it gives them relief, instead of the burden of carrying hate, bitterness and hurt around for the rest of their lives. Considering, that it is not possible for any of us to carry another's hurt for them anyway, it's the only thing that makes sense. We just hand that hurt, pain, and hate over to the one entity that CAN carry it for someone else. It is a tradgedy, that things like this happen, things that can destroy a young life--even to the point of taking that life, but it is far worse to allow it to destroy the lives of all connected due to an inability to never forgive. FORGET, now, is a different story.

Nicely said. Albeit, somewhat ironic in view of the parallel thread-within-a-thread thing that's going on.

quote Originally posted by Shyster: Nicely said. Albeit, somewhat ironic in view of the parallel thread-within-a-thread thing that's going on.

I try to just skip over that part Shyster.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: So you're perfectly calm when calling people "whiney c***s" and so on? Well, goodie for you. You sure know how to look unglued in the way you type.

It's not the way I type, it's the way you read it. You want me to become "unglued", so you read it that way. Believe me, I don't lose a wink over you. And I'm not "calling people "whiney c***s" and so on". Just you. I call them as I see them.

Done yet?

And now for something completly different.

How can I forgive him? He did not do anything to me. Only the one's that he has harmed can forgive him. I cannot forgive him on behalf of anyone else. Also there is debate as to whether forgiveness is conditional or unconditional. I believe it is conditional. In other words the wrong doer must ask for forgiveness and repent before they can be forgiven.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: How can I forgive him? He did not do anything to me. Only the one's that he has harmed can forgive him. I cannot forgive him on behalf of anyone else. Also there is debate as to whether forgiveness is conditional or unconditional. I believe it is conditional. In other words the wrong doer must ask for forgiveness and repent before they can be forgiven.

Interesting viewpoint.
I will have to roll that one around awhile!

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Interesting viewpoint. I will have to roll that one around awhile!

ditto. I'm a readin, and learnin. Sorta, I am a slow learner, if some of ya'll could find it in yourselves to type a little slower it would help

Brad

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: It's not the way I type, it's the way you read it. You want me to become "unglued", so you read it that way. Believe me, I don't lose a wink over you.

Which is why you troll me over s*** that's over a year old? You might believe that, but you're not fooling anyone but yourself.

quote And I'm not "calling people "whiney c***s" and so on". Just you. I call them as I see them. Done yet?

LOL

Keep telling yourself that.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 03-01-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: How can I forgive him? He did not do anything to me. Only the one's that he has harmed can forgive him. I cannot forgive him on behalf of anyone else. Also there is debate as to whether forgiveness is conditional or unconditional. I believe it is conditional. In other words the wrong doer must ask for forgiveness and repent before they can be forgiven.

I think he has harmed all of humanity. We are all harmed by it. Some MUCH more than others, but nonetheless, we are all affected by his actions.

Someone mentioned that mercy is a Christian concept. In Christianity, mercy is a gift. "He has the gift of mercy". Mercy is a gift that I think I have. However, in this case, my gift of mercy would not be enough to keep me from throwing the switch on him given the chance.

On topic. That guy certainly doesn't deserve any forgiveness.

He needs to be put down and I will accept this partial payment for his inability to commit suicide early in life when he realized he was a sick demented danger to children.
Hang him,shoot him or fry him doesn't matter. It is all the same mercy. Anything vindictive is just our own hate and weaknesses coming out.

I admit I am weak cause I'd like to shoot that **** in the leg and move up as he regains consciousness.

off topic

quote Originally posted by fierobear: It's not even a matter of "he can dish it out but can't take it." It's more like "he LOVES to dish it out, but comes unglued when it comes back".

If you were smart you wouldn't have even posted this.

If I were smart I wouldn't have posted anything either given that you can't seem to let it go.

[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 03-01-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: God can forgive him, I don't have to. God made me who I am and I am grateful for all he has done for me. With all of that I just cant see feeling hate for this guy as wrong.

I sent this in a PM to Boonie, but I guess I'll repost it here for your benifit as well:

Forgiveness is in no way an easy thing to do. However, we all are sinners. To say that we will not forgive someone is like telling God not to forgive us. You may not think so, but just as bad as this man's actions are in your eyes, you have done things just as bad in God's eyes (we all have!).

Now, even though you may forgive him, his is still in every way to be punished under the law of our government which God has established for us. Don't worry, he will be punished for his crime.

And the forgiveness is more for your sake rather than his. What he needs is to find forgiveness from God, not you.

It is sad that things like this happen in the world. It can really be a crummy place.


Mark 11:25 (New International Version)

And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Luke 6:36-38 (New International Version)

Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Matthew 6:14-15 (New International Version)

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Matthew 18:21-35
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"

Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.

"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'

"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

Proverbs 13:24 (New International Version)

He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.

Proverbs 23:13-14 (New International Version)

Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
Punish him with the rod
and save his soul from death.

Micah 6:9 (New International Version)

Listen! The LORD is calling to the city—
and to fear your name is wisdom—
"Heed the rod and the One who appointed it.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: On topic. That guy certainly doesn't deserve any forgiveness. He needs to be put down and I will accept this partial payment for his inability to commit suicide early in life when he realized he was a sick demented danger to children. Hang him,shoot him or fry him doesn't matter. It is all the same mercy. Anything vindictive is just our own hate and weaknesses coming out. I admit I am weak cause I'd like to shoot that **** in the leg and move up as he regains consciousness.

I feel sorry for the jury. They will have to review all the hours of video of the alleged crimes. If he is guilty of these offenses, they will have to look at atrocities that they will never be able to wash from their minds. If he is innocent, they will have to acquit a man that many have already convicted in their minds. I hope they have the conviction to do the right thing, and the strength to perform their service to society.